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Post by I AM the Way on Jan 23, 2012 13:48:24 GMT -6
About a year ago, I created a thread for the 4th Way book Creating a Soul by Girard Haven. The plan was to read and work through the book as a small study group. While this ambitious scheme failed on a group level, I and possibly one or two others were able to benefit.
Now, I propose the same thing x 3! Starting on February 23rd, I'm going to start reading volume 1 of this three volume set. At just under 300 pages, I don't think it will take me (us, for those who participate) too long before moving on to volumes 2 and 3.
From the amazon reviews I've read, Gnosis by Boris Mauravieff is a slightly different kind of 4th Way teaching. It is parallel to Gurdjieff and Ouspensky's Work because it originates from similar source material. I don't know if Mauravieff influenced them or if they influenced Mauravieff, but perhaps. I'll do more research between now and the start date.
Now that I've finally completed Maurice Nicoll's 5 volume set of Fourth Way Commentaries, I'm looking forward to delving into something a bit more obscure and, Yog-Sothoth willing, just as powerful! Those interested in this small study group should post in this thread.
By His loathsome tentacles,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by lucifersman666 on Jan 23, 2012 16:08:40 GMT -6
Im in.
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Post by Kyuubi on Jan 23, 2012 16:43:29 GMT -6
It's been a while since we had a good group read. Sadly my reading list is beyond flooded. I purchased a collection of 1970's prints of Lovecraft which I am completely invested in right now. Also I am reading the Art of War and like a million comics as usual. So sadly I will have to decline.
It would be awesome if you created a thread about the book I would be interested in what discussion will come about.
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Post by Kyuubi on Jan 23, 2012 17:10:02 GMT -6
Upon searching for this title so I could investigate it more I found a site hosting a PDF for the series of books. www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_autor_mouravieff.htmMaybe this will help some of those strapped for cash or better yet donate that cash to CoC! Enjoy AWAKEN!
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Jan 23, 2012 18:39:14 GMT -6
I've been looking for a new title on the fourth way to delve into. These should suffice nicely. I will partake. I'll order the books this weekend, so hopefully i will have them by the 23rd.
IA IA Cthulhu Fhtagn
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Post by wren on Jan 24, 2012 8:54:29 GMT -6
I will read it as well. Thank you for the links, Kyuubi.
Awake!
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Post by I AM the Way on Jan 24, 2012 11:08:46 GMT -6
I'm glad there is some interest. Still waiting for others to join us.
For those who don't purchase the books but read them for free online, I ask that you make the $7 donation to keep these boards advertisement-free for an extra month. See the very bottom of each forum page for the link.
Are you aware of the irony... or, rather, in 4th Way terms, the misaligned activity of your disorganized 'I's? I just got done reading your private email to me regarding Ascension. This is exactly the kind of close observation required of prospective Wizards of the Terrible Darkness. How desirous can you be of Ascension if you dismiss the first emerald opportunity for growing with the Cult of Cthulhu?
You obviously want to Awaken, but some of your 'I's don't want to put in the effort. That's the sad part. However, it's not just you, Kyuubi. Everyone is full of 'I's that are either lazy or stubborn. That's why Magnetic Center is so important. An organized set of Work 'I's are capable of making important Work-related decisions. Sacrifice is necessary, as are super-efforts.
Work must progress along three lines: 1) Work on yourself. 2) Work with your fellow students. 3) Work for the school itself.
We cannot ask others to struggle in our place while we read comic books. There are approximately four weeks between now and when the Mouravieff study group begins investigating Gnosis. That should be plenty of time to finish current projects, acquire the first volume, and make the necessary preparations.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Kyuubi on Jan 24, 2012 17:51:14 GMT -6
I have acquired the reading and have finished the first section by my own will last night. Your very correct I need to reanalyze myself and I do realize now that this is more important. Thank you.
Hail Satanis
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Post by jakrune on Jan 24, 2012 20:47:41 GMT -6
I've just downloaded all three volumes and am looking forward to partaking in the analysis with thee
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Jan 24, 2012 21:09:20 GMT -6
Do you have a link for the downloads? As I'd much prefer this for free as apposed to forking out $100 to amazon.
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Post by Kyuubi on Jan 25, 2012 0:29:27 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2012 10:39:18 GMT -6
Thanks Kyuubi, now I can see it's very interesting, so I'll be in. The original was written in French, cool I'll get the original version.
I begin to think that "esoteric christianity" is just Traditional esotericism who labeled itself christian to avoid religious persecution... A pragmatic move, the Tradition had to survive !
Now is the moment of Awakening !
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Post by I AM the Way on Jan 25, 2012 11:06:58 GMT -6
Thanks Kyuubi, now I can see it's very interesting, so I'll be in. The original was written in French, cool I'll get the original version.
I begin to think that "esoteric christianity" is just Traditional esotericism who labeled itself christian to avoid religious persecution... A pragmatic move, the Tradition had to survive !
Now is the moment of Awakening ! Yes, I can see where reading the French version would be a perfect fit for you, Yrreiht.
An interesting observation about Esoteric Christianity. Yes, esotericism could have used Christianity to flourish through the ages. That mythology is a suitable backdrop for some, but I think the Cthulhu Mythos has a lot going for it as well... obviously, since this is the Cult of Cthulhu.
Awake!
VS
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Jan 25, 2012 11:07:32 GMT -6
Thanks for the link brother. I'm looking forward to getting into these.
I'm curious Venger how did you find these? As Mouravieff seems to be quite a different source. He doesn't even have a wikipedia article. Not that it matters really, but still is interesting. Quite obscure no? Have you been doing research into anything else like this?
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
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Post by I AM the Way on Jan 25, 2012 11:10:28 GMT -6
I have acquired the reading and have finished the first section by my own will last night. Your very correct I need to reanalyze myself and I do realize now that this is more important. Thank you. Hail Satanis I'm very glad you have the maturity to take my response in the way it was intended - as motivation. If I didn't think you had a reasonable chance of becoming Man #5, I wouldn't have bothered.
Awake!
VS
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Post by I AM the Way on Jan 25, 2012 11:21:36 GMT -6
I'm curious Venger how did you find these? As Mouravieff seems to be quite a different source. He doesn't even have a wikipedia article. Not that it matters really, but still is interesting. Quite obscure no? Have you been doing research into anything else like this?
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn! As it happens, I was perusing the amazon reviews for Maurice Nicoll's Commentaries on the Work since I've recently completed reading it and wanted to write my own review for his magnificent volumes. Upon reading one of the 5 star reviews, someone mentioned Boris Mouravieff and his Gnosis books."...and his use of analogy and metaphor can really help you to achieve understanding of particular aspects of the Work that maybe you didn't connect with very deeply after meeting with it in one of Ouspensky's books. (I have to say, though, that Ouspensky's books are the purest spring for the ideas and practices and goals of the Work...) Boris Mouravieff's three-volume GNOSIS would be a good third source for these ideas." I was surprised that Mouravieff had escaped my attention, so I did some looking and found him to be another possible Fourth Way Master. There is some controversy surrounding the man and his teaching, but that's to be expected.
Awake!
VS
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Post by wubafwez on Jan 25, 2012 15:46:09 GMT -6
I might give this a try too AWAKE [glow=green,2,300]WUBAFWEZ[/glow]
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Post by Kyuubi on Jan 25, 2012 16:48:58 GMT -6
This book is fantastic. I am already hooked. Don't worry though I will not spoil anything and yes I will be reading it with you all in February, but maybe for the second time.
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Post by lucifersman666 on Feb 16, 2012 16:46:02 GMT -6
just got my copy,the posts are already going somewhere,right on!
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 23, 2012 14:18:59 GMT -6
Read up to Chapter 4, that is through page 26 in my book. Post questions, comments, and whatever insight you my have. Let's get the discussion going!
By His loathsome tentacles,
VS
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Post by pocketguy on Feb 24, 2012 20:16:26 GMT -6
p xxiv: Here Mouriavieff says Jesus invented romance. I find that hard to believe. I understand that this is not essential to his point, but in my mind it undermines his credibility. I feel the same way about the food diagram that appears in some of Ouspensky's books -- if he could believe that without doing a huge sequence of experiments to derive it, I have doubts about the other things he said. The discipline these people are teaching should keep them from jumping to unwarranted conclusions, so either we have to say the discipline doesn't do what it says, or we have to say these people didn't have the skills they were teaching, or we have to buy the story about the food diagram and Jesus inventing romance.
p6: What evidence do we have that there is a master potentially sitting in the coach?
p22: Do we have reason to believe that this deep introspection shows anything beyond what you expected to see at the beginning of the process? The process looks a bit like hypnosis, and I would expect it to get equally flexible results.
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Post by pocketguy on Feb 24, 2012 20:19:26 GMT -6
Oh, I forgot to say, thanks for getting this started. I don't want to be all negative here -- the iron filings metaphor was new to me and seems useful.
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 25, 2012 9:53:10 GMT -6
"Yet it is an aberration to believe that Science by its very nature is opposed to Tradition, and it must also be firmly stressed that Tradition does not include any tendency opposed to Science. On the contrary, the Apostles foresaw the prodigious developments of science." page xxiv
That reminds me of a line from John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness...
The container was buried somewhere in the Middle East eons ago by, it gets a little wild here, the father of Satan – a God who once walked the earth before man but was somehow banished to the dark side...
Now, later on here, Christ comes to warn us. He was of extra-terrestrial ancestry, but a human-like race.
...his disciples keep the secret and hide it from civilisation until man could develop a science sophisticated enough to prove what Christ was saying.
Where exactly? I just re-read that page, and I don't see anything more than an explanation of why science and faith are not mutually exclusive.
Keep in mind that the teaching of esotericism is to be taken in a different or new way - figuratively, metaphorically... in abstract. It's the same thing with the Cult of Cthulhu using Lovecraft's Mythos to provide context and color and narrative gravitas which allows knowledge to sink deeper into us. It's important to establish not only an intellectual connection to knowledge but an emotional one.
We don't have to take all 4th Way claims literally, yet, at the same time, disciples must have some kind of faith in the Work, as well as, the Teacher.
I'm not sure I understand your question. Following the description, do you see the master as somewhere else or are you suggesting there might not be a master?
Are you referring to the division of centers? I'm not sure what you mean by hypnosis... can you explain?
Awake!
VS
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Post by pocketguy on Feb 25, 2012 23:10:57 GMT -6
I was wrong, it was page xxv, second paragraph from the end.
Ya, teaching by metaphor has its pros and cons. One advantage is that it lets the teacher do an end-run around self-defending erroneous thought on the part of the student. I've seen this work well in "Anatomy of Peace" by the Harbinger Institute. People who need that content seem to be unable to absorb it directly, so presenting a fictional story there is the only good option I know.
One disadvantage is that it makes questioning and discussing the content difficult, since the precise meaning of a metaphor is subject to endless debate. If the underlying teaching is in fact false, teaching it by metaphor can succeed and thus be harmful.
Perhaps I have too little faith in these teachers to benefit. At the moment it seems worthwhile to carry on and see.
More the latter than the former. Ideally I'd like clear evidence that mastery is possible before investing a lot of effort to make it happen for me. I can't imagine what such evidence would look like. Any ideas here?
I was referring mostly to the location of personality as a "nebula" in the body, at the bottom of p21 and top of p22, but the same doubt applies to other self-observation.
In some circumstances, the mind seems to be fairly willing to incorporate ambient suggestions into its world model. One of those circumstances is sensory deprivation. So we have here a book that says you'll perceive such-and-such if you adopt a posture where you don't have to move and then close your eyes for a while. Suppose people do perceive such-and-such if they do the experiment after reading about it in the book. How do you know whether it was observation of something real that was always there, or it is some imaginary perception created by reading a suggestion in a book and then getting into a state of mind in which one tends to accept suggestions?
Maybe knowing for sure needs people to do the experiment who aren't first told about the expected results. Even then, it might be unreal if there's some ambient culturally acquired belief about it.
Despite my doubts, I am attempting to do more mindfulness meditation, which AFAICT is about the same thing as training for self-awareness. For me, the persuasive argument is from Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. They claim that if you're mindful, and in particular you're mindful of how your thoughts lead to behavior that differs from your values, you can use this to generate behavior that is more consistent with your values. So they connect mindfulness to behavior change, which is a testable hypothesis. Maybe Gnosis gets more into testable hypotheses later; I haven't started Chapter 4 yet.
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 26, 2012 10:23:11 GMT -6
Perhaps the author is trying to make his point by drawing on the coincidental time period of loving thy neighbor and what we now call traditional marriage. Certainly, the Old Testament is full of polygamy and vengeance while the New Testament is not. Did marriage for love, instead of property, pro-creation, and position, come about via Christianity? I haven't done any research, but it seems to be what Mouravieff is saying.
Yes, it does sound a bit far fetched, but if the author is using it to make a point, then I'll go along with it for a short ways. Beyond recognizing the value of love, it doesn't seem to go anywhere at all. Perhaps he'll elaborate later in the book.
When discussing aspects of human behavior, buried attitudes and prejudices, as well as, man's true purpose in the tentacled face of Higher Forces, it's difficult to speak in concrete terms. One cannot always point to cause and effect or a quantifiable relationship between understanding and will.
Students should measure a teaching by results. He should be able to verify, after a time, the meaning embedded within what is being taught by using it to improve his life.
As long as you understand that in a 19th century coach the person sitting within the box has the authority and effectively calls the shots. Do you believe that mastery is possible outside esotericism?
I suppose, the reader has to honestly ask himself if he can give up some of the things he is currently doing in return for a better way of operating. Do you have a problem with how your machine functions at this moment? If not, then you're "fine" and there's probably no reason to pursue the knowledge capable of improving one's being.
The fact that personality, or the revolving collection of 'I's within man, isn't unified is self-evident to most people encountering the Work.
As for movements, I, too, have always been suspicious of their potency. Gurdjieff's elaborate dances are said to foster conscious attention in both those moving and watching the movements. Personally, I believe such claims to be exaggerated or a product of wishful thinking. I suppose that means I can be critical of some teaching while wholly accepting of the rest. Take that for whatever it's worth...
Testable is subjective. Would such tests hold up to the rigorous standards of today's science? I don't know. The fact that we must observe ourselves makes for a potentially skewed result. Of course, an outside observer could try to verify results, but that is problematic as well. The majority sees what it has been programmed to see.
I can sit here and type my observations... communicating the liberation I feel for all my Work struggles which, of course, are primarily struggles with myself. But is that any kind of proof?
Awake!
VS
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Post by wren on Feb 27, 2012 12:35:51 GMT -6
Alright, here it goes. Page 4 and 5: I found the illustration of the iron fillings interesting. It’s a reminder of the constant state of plurality, of no ‘real I’. As I have often thought, it takes a fire of purification before this machine I call “I” can be used effectively, fire that we have to light ourselves by Work. Page 17: “We can easily understand from what has already been said that there is no possibility of passing directly from knowledge to savoir-faire. We generally explain the failure of our attempts to act as due to lack of will. That is not correct. It is neither the will nor, to be more accurate, the intensity of desire which is lacking in these cases; to be precise we lack being, which would allow us first to understand' the knowledge we have acquired, and so obtain the power that gives access to savoir-faire.” I hadn’t actually thought about it like this before. From the lack of Master I, don’t we lack will? Though I suppose it’s the same thing. So, essentially, to be able to do, we first need to be.Page 21: Posture of the Sage, think there's anything to that? Personally, I think meditation would be just as useful, if not more. Page 51: Another odd thing is how, unlike Ouspensky, he doesn’t consider negative emotions to be unnecessary. If I recall, Ouspensky in The Fourth Way said that they were just imitations pulled from various places and we could be without them. However, turning the negative emotions on your self is useful at times. Hate what’s wrong in the machine and you will have more incentive to destroy it and reshape it. I’ll be rereading the chapters again and I’ll probably add some more observations tomorrow. Awake!
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Post by lokidreaming on Feb 27, 2012 19:11:02 GMT -6
Cheers for the pdf links and will be reading them with a keen interest
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Post by patience on Feb 27, 2012 22:28:51 GMT -6
I am very interested in this book. I found it on scribd.
Thank you.
Don't worry. Be happy. Make efforts.
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Post by oola on Feb 28, 2012 3:29:13 GMT -6
"The great machine that drags him along turns without stopping, and forbids him to stop under penalty of being crushed..." Is this penalty death? this line of reasoning in page 2 last paragraph, i disagree with this line of reasoning, the machine will not crush him, instead it will stop dragging him because he Awakens from the illusion that the make-belief machine is dragging him through. Man indeed can stop this machine from dragging him under.
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Post by oola on Feb 28, 2012 3:43:13 GMT -6
" man is so caught up in the toils of mechanical life that he has neither time to stop nor the power of attention needed to turn his mental vision upon himself"
I definitely agree in part, with Boris's thinking. Yes man is caught up in the tools of mechanical life... but i belief man have the time to stop and power of attention needed to make change, if not what am i doing here?
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