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Post by dudetyson on Oct 8, 2011 20:57:37 GMT -6
Venger recently sent out the following e-mail:
"Hello everyone,
I wrote a new essay. I've been on a big radio station talking about Satanism. Lots of people are occupying Wall Street and other major cities...
Where's the activity, guys?!? We've got a number of great new threads, but only a dozen or so people regularly posting this week. That's odd, since we have over a thousand forum users registered.
Log on and at least keep tabs on what's happening - not just within the Cult of Cthulhu but around the world! Have something to say? Post it.
Awake!
VS"
To the above email, I begun to write an e-mail response, but then realized that it should be a Cult-wide topic of discussion. Here it is:
Dearest Venger,
This is precisely what I've been wondering about, or worrying about, etc. I'm afraid that exhortation rubbed me the wrong way, and brought to the surface a number of issues lurking in my psyche. To some it may seem like a reminder of little significance, but to me it was one example of a larger trend, indicating an over-arching failure of approach.
People are looking for the experience of religion. A web forum is not a religion. We don't have the personal touch. My vision of 4th Way initiation is quite similar to the life coaching thing which you offer as a paid service, separate from the religion. Sorry to spurn a potential source of income, but you seem to be doing okay (considering how everyone else is doing). Maybe you should consider making it part of your ministry as Cult leader. To take a hands-off approach to initiating someone into Awakening is to not initiate them.
You can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink...but then again, the personal touch of actually walking to the water alongside the horse is a lot more evocative than just telling it that there's water over there some ways.
This would be the core of my issue, the rest merely being an unfolding therefrom: Malcolm Gladwell (speaking politically) said that social media can create big flashes of protest, but what creates a sustained movement are in-person groups and relationships which meet on a regular basis (or in some rare cases live together). An online group can succeed, but only if it is centered around a network of in-person clusters. At the very least, one-on-one attention by phone can be a weak but somewhat effective substitute for in-person interaction.
If I were you, I would forgo most of your attention to the Internet and divert focus to building up an in-person group in your area. Lead by example. The problem is, if anyone succeeds in establishing a grotto or NAO nexion, our local folk will see us as more authoritative than you, because we're actually getting our hands dirty making an in-person group happen. People will ask, oh, so you have this faraway leader. Does he have a grotto, how big is it? And we'll have to say...eh, there isn't one. And they will see it as a joke, and I will wonder if they are wrong.
Joiners will look at the situation like this: given that the religion is a webforum and not a network of in-person clusters, their unofficial-but-in-practice religion is actually not the webforum which you oversee. The actual religion which they consider themselves part of is their own grotto, and will regard its leader as their actual leader, having very little to do with you or your sites.
If you have thousands of registered members, but only a dozen people posting, maybe that should make you consider what a member really is, or what your expectations and focus should be. Sure, the socialist group I'm in will get thousands of people to put their name on something. But we only count the people who show up, pay dues, and take part in the work of our routines as members. We only focus our efforts to further integrate people on members and people who aren't yet members but are participating in some of the way that members do.
This method has worked brilliantly in creating a lasting, growing organization, where we know who our members are, rather than merely hoping that everyone who jots a name down actually means something. Consider it a political form of building a magnetic center, as opposed to concerning ourselves with every passing, impulsive "I."
In the absence of in-person proximity, phone calls are good. They eliminate the impersonality of text and create a one-on-one focus, rather than the blanket of mass communication which, in attempting to focus on everyone, focuses on no one. Hitler was right on one point -- spoken communication for the win. There may be text-only visionaries, but no text-only messiahs. But not just spoken word -- *targeted, personal* spoken word.
I myself am going to seek to apply the ideas offline more, I'm going to have to post less in order to live it. It's just an issue of limited free time. Perhaps there are other people like me out there, non-posters who are living the path very well. But you have no way of knowing it without some regular system of staying in touch, and analyzing and encouraging each others' Awakening.
Not only do *you* not know what the real shape of the Cult is, but *the Cultists* know even less than you, making a lull in forum activity appear to be a collapse of the religion! (And would such a perception even be wrong?) In the absence of a real organized, mutually-assisted initiation, spinning my wheels writing more essays seems futile. We have all the mental material we need; we need to give it a corporeal body.
You mentioned that Occupy Wall Street is going on. True, but why would people want to discuss that on the Cult forums? In their eyes we have virtually nothing to do with that world, we have no effect on it at all. Without any kind of structure, it is impossible for the Cult to be relevant to major events, or to even fulfill its core religious purposes.
Overall, though, if you claim to be the consciousness of the Cult machine/organism, the core it needs to avoid running aground, the person you should be asking about the lack of activity is not us, but yourself. Scolding the membership is not leadership, it is helpless flailing, and a projection of your own lack of a practical plan onto your followers. It's not taking orders that I object to, it's this futile wheel-spinning of thinking that the Internet is going to solve the problem of building a group. It won't.
I like some of the philosophies, and had hope in the beginning that these organizational problems would be taken care of with time. I have seen zero progress on that front, but from what I can tell, there has been no progress on that front in eight years besides Cora'Sahn's grotto. I pushed for the council-centered chain of initiation. For a while I was maintaining it on my own end, but there was no point of continuing with it if the Cult leader himself was not maintaining or even remembering it, since the group won't stick with it if you don't.
Until you make the sacrifices necessary to establish an in-person following, you lack the moral authority to ask such from anyone else. The way I see it, you either have to commit to that goal and succeed reasonably soon, or hand off supreme leadership to someone else for the good of the Cult so that it ceases to stagnate. That is not a joke. You may say, "That makes no sense, I came up with this, I lead it." It's an interesting consideration -- would you rather see the philosophy you invented remain tiny under yourself, or expand under someone else?
Wistful and well-wishing, a recently-restored-to-the-Dark-Side Nakhometh
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 9, 2011 10:11:50 GMT -6
Venger recently sent out the following e-mail:
"Hello everyone,
I wrote a new essay. I've been on a big radio station talking about Satanism. Lots of people are occupying Wall Street and other major cities...
Where's the activity, guys?!? We've got a number of great new threads, but only a dozen or so people regularly posting this week. That's odd, since we have over a thousand forum users registered.
Log on and at least keep tabs on what's happening - not just within the Cult of Cthulhu but around the world! Have something to say? Post it.
Awake!
VS"
To the above email, I begun to write an e-mail response, but then realized that it should be a Cult-wide topic of discussion. Here it is:
Dearest Venger,
This is precisely what I've been wondering about, or worrying about, etc. I'm afraid that exhortation rubbed me the wrong way, and brought to the surface a number of issues lurking in my psyche. To some it may seem like a reminder of little significance, but to me it was one example of a larger trend, indicating an over-arching failure of approach.
People are looking for the experience of religion. A web forum is not a religion. We don't have the personal touch. My vision of 4th Way initiation is quite similar to the life coaching thing which you offer as a paid service, separate from the religion. Sorry to spurn a potential source of income, but you seem to be doing okay (considering how everyone else is doing). Maybe you should consider making it part of your ministry as Cult leader. To take a hands-off approach to initiating someone into Awakening is to not initiate them.
You can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink...but then again, the personal touch of actually walking to the water alongside the horse is a lot more evocative than just telling it that there's water over there some ways.
This would be the core of my issue, the rest merely being an unfolding therefrom: Malcolm Gladwell (speaking politically) said that social media can create big flashes of protest, but what creates a sustained movement are in-person groups and relationships which meet on a regular basis (or in some rare cases live together). An online group can succeed, but only if it is centered around a network of in-person clusters. At the very least, one-on-one attention by phone can be a weak but somewhat effective substitute for in-person interaction.
If I were you, I would forgo most of your attention to the Internet and divert focus to building up an in-person group in your area. Lead by example. The problem is, if anyone succeeds in establishing a grotto or NAO nexion, our local folk will see us as more authoritative than you, because we're actually getting our hands dirty making an in-person group happen. People will ask, oh, so you have this faraway leader. Does he have a grotto, how big is it? And we'll have to say...eh, there isn't one. And they will see it as a joke, and I will wonder if they are wrong.
Joiners will look at the situation like this: given that the religion is a webforum and not a network of in-person clusters, their unofficial-but-in-practice religion is actually not the webforum which you oversee. The actual religion which they consider themselves part of is their own grotto, and will regard its leader as their actual leader, having very little to do with you or your sites.
If you have thousands of registered members, but only a dozen people posting, maybe that should make you consider what a member really is, or what your expectations and focus should be. Sure, the socialist group I'm in will get thousands of people to put their name on something. But we only count the people who show up, pay dues, and take part in the work of our routines as members. We only focus our efforts to further integrate people on members and people who aren't yet members but are participating in some of the way that members do.
This method has worked brilliantly in creating a lasting, growing organization, where we know who our members are, rather than merely hoping that everyone who jots a name down actually means something. Consider it a political form of building a magnetic center, as opposed to concerning ourselves with every passing, impulsive "I."
In the absence of in-person proximity, phone calls are good. They eliminate the impersonality of text and create a one-on-one focus, rather than the blanket of mass communication which, in attempting to focus on everyone, focuses on no one. Hitler was right on one point -- spoken communication for the win. There may be text-only visionaries, but no text-only messiahs. But not just spoken word -- *targeted, personal* spoken word.
I myself am going to seek to apply the ideas offline more, I'm going to have to post less in order to live it. It's just an issue of limited free time. Perhaps there are other people like me out there, non-posters who are living the path very well. But you have no way of knowing it without some regular system of staying in touch, and analyzing and encouraging each others' Awakening.
Not only do *you* not know what the real shape of the Cult is, but *the Cultists* know even less than you, making a lull in forum activity appear to be a collapse of the religion! (And would such a perception even be wrong?) In the absence of a real organized, mutually-assisted initiation, spinning my wheels writing more essays seems futile. We have all the mental material we need; we need to give it a corporeal body.
You mentioned that Occupy Wall Street is going on. True, but why would people want to discuss that on the Cult forums? In their eyes we have virtually nothing to do with that world, we have no effect on it at all. Without any kind of structure, it is impossible for the Cult to be relevant to major events, or to even fulfill its core religious purposes.
Overall, though, if you claim to be the consciousness of the Cult machine/organism, the core it needs to avoid running aground, the person you should be asking about the lack of activity is not us, but yourself. Scolding the membership is not leadership, it is helpless flailing, and a projection of your own lack of a practical plan onto your followers. It's not taking orders that I object to, it's this futile wheel-spinning of thinking that the Internet is going to solve the problem of building a group. It won't.
I like some of the philosophies, and had hope in the beginning that these organizational problems would be taken care of with time. I have seen zero progress on that front, but from what I can tell, there has been no progress on that front in eight years besides Cora'Sahn's grotto. I pushed for the council-centered chain of initiation. For a while I was maintaining it on my own end, but there was no point of continuing with it if the Cult leader himself was not maintaining or even remembering it, since the group won't stick with it if you don't.
Until you make the sacrifices necessary to establish an in-person following, you lack the moral authority to ask such from anyone else. The way I see it, you either have to commit to that goal and succeed reasonably soon, or hand off supreme leadership to someone else for the good of the Cult so that it ceases to stagnate. That is not a joke. You may say, "That makes no sense, I came up with this, I lead it." It's an interesting consideration -- would you rather see the philosophy you invented remain tiny under yourself, or expand under someone else?
Wistful and well-wishing, a recently-restored-to-the-Dark-Side Nakhometh
[/color][/quote] A bracing critique, brother. Of course, I don't agree with everything you've said, but there's definitely something here to talk about. If I came across as chastising, then I sincerely apologize. I was simply trying to motivate more people to stop by and read posts on our discussion boards.
The forum and social network is our way of staying in-touch.
If a Cultist invests in me / the CoC / himself, then I will reciprocate. That goes above and beyond motivational life coaching. That's precisely why there's a new Ascension thread here on the forum. What I don't want to do is waste my time on those with only a casual interest in Awakening. Did I not take time out of my schedule to discuss Fourth Way concepts with you last weekend on the phone, Dude Tyson?
Is not every messiah or messianic figure, of the no longer living variety, a text-only messiah? Excluding those who were alive in the 20th or 21st century and fortunate enough to be filmed, of course. Not that you don't have a point, but communication is communication.
Yes, the attempts to build a central Grotto in WI have fallen by the wayside. My bad. Although, I have been busy with other projects.
I guess I'm not sure why you felt the motivation to post this (a critique of me and my leadership style) rather than creating a substantial manifestation of your own will. Although, I think I already know the answer. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for the feedback and advice - but keep up your own contributions. Also, be mindful that my having to respond to this is only taking up time which could be allocated to other worthwhile pursuits... pursuits that even you may deem valuable.
You're in the process of re-locating, Dude, but I encourage you to become a Grotto Master yourself when the time is right. And if the Cultists in your Grotto choose to see me as a far removed figurehead of the CoC, then so be it. There are probably a few poor souls in the world who are Cthulhu Mythos devotees but have no interest in H.P. Lovecraft.
Your final question, "would I rather the philosophy I created remain tiny under myself or expand under someone else?" My answer is this: If the Cult of Cthulhu can remain pure, meaning conscious, then I won't stand in anyone's way. That was the whole problem with the Decree of Heresy business. Their proposed direction was potentially far less conscious than I could allow. I'm not stopping anyone from leading the Cult of Cthulhu to new heights and depths. As Ipsissimus, I facilitate those kinds of things. Nevertheless, I'll be damned if I sit idly by as our quantum religion, emerald paradigm, and viridescent teaching turns into something as misguided as contemporary christianity.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Oct 9, 2011 17:07:31 GMT -6
Dude Tyson says: [/color][/quote]
Ah, here we go again...
Dude Tyson: You have many valid points here. Before the Decree of Heresy thread, I was a Wizard of the Terrible Darkness. I, too, asked Lord Satanis to work with other Wizards in order to implement an initiation/mentor program that would Work to creating future Wizards. While he provided me with some lip service that it was a good idea, he never committed to following through with it or answered my emails when I attempted to finalize it. Figuring that he was no longer interested, I stopped wasting my time.
As a fellow cultist, I agree that it is not easy to sit back and watch our leader continue walk the same path he has been walking with this religion since it's inception with little or no push for the next organized steps. This has been one of my complaints since Jason first joined. What are we actually doing here? What is the direction of the CoC? What plan do we have in place that will ensure it's legacy after Lord Satanis passes away?
But... I can tell you that, even though I stepped down from my former ranking, I am still here. I still try to stay abreast of what direction the CoC is taking and analyze if it's valid to the direction I am heading. Sometimes, it is, and I walk away from the forum with a new tool to utilize on my path. Sometimes, it's not. Either way, it's up to me to decide.
Lord Satanis challenges you with:
[/b][/color]
...but I think that may be a way of avoiding an answer to these types of questions, once again. He may say he accepts and encourages the formation of individual grottos, yet there is still no plan for establishing and maintaining them.
I do agree with him that we are all responsible for creating our own manifestation. This is part of the reason that I stopped tracking membership and ranks in the CoC, stopped tracking state representatives, and slowed down in my participation in forum debates and discussions. Instead, I became active in our local Gurdjieff Foundation chapter, began diligently journaling my own awakening journey, and focused on creating an awakened foundation for my children's home.
Do I get the emails from Lord Satanis trying to drum up participation within the forum and CoC network? Of course. But from previous experience, I know that my participation within the CoC has done much less for my awakening than the real-life applications of the Fourth Way philosophy. Our time is limited, Dude, and especially our "free" time. All we can do is spend it wisely, which is relative to our individual journeys.
Lord Satanis says:
Lord Satanis: Please do not push away another key member of our organization because they are challenging you on the direction of the CoC. None of us question your passion for this organization or your rank within it. Just as with the Decree of Heresy, we appreciate and respect it so much that we want (and think it could be) much more than what you are willing to let it be. You don't want it be as misguided as contemporary Christianity, and that is valid. However, a planned, detailed set of guidance is necessary in the success of any organization.
Dude Tyson is very active and provides this forum and the social network with worthwhile interaction. As I've said many times before in other situations, I think it's unprofessional for you to degrade members in the public forum with things like insinuating that his post or your response to his post is not worth your time. You say that this forum is our way of staying in touch. If that's really the way you want it, then you understand that this means all things that any member may need to stay-in-touch about.
Lord Satanis, you are active in the online world; this is true. You are writing essays, you are giving interviews, and you are participating in many different forums to spread the word of the CoC. These are great things. The problem, as I see it, is that once you convince the public to check us out, we have little to offer them when they arrive.
Awake!
Apsara Kamalli Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by sin on Oct 10, 2011 7:18:41 GMT -6
This is a common view, it is common because man's nature is common. Once a person decides "Hey that sounds cool, let me check it out!" It's as if, they expect to arrive and have everything handed to them on a platter, all neatly laid out like an organized religion. In my personal experience, this paradigm relies heavily on chaos. There is much here that the CoC offers, so much in fact, that it would take a cultist many years to fully grasp it all. Man is impatient by nature, so when he becomes impatient (and over a short period of time) this is his machine, doing what machines do - act out of routine programming.
This is in part, the reason I put together the "To be a cultist" essay. If you are using, that's great - keep using, but there are distinctions to be made between using and being. I can use a tool, and throw it back in the tool box for use another time, I don't think about the tools in my tool box every day, but if I have a need to 'use' that tool, its there for me. A cultist can think of nothing else, but the Work he must do as a self-discipline, as a matter of forming new and healthy habits (conscious programming) that disrupt his machine.
So you join the forum, you post a few blogs and comment on the blogs of other cultists. Great, that's observable thought in motion. Then what? Each cultist has their own Work to do. Your Work is not my work, and my Work is not your work - but it is equally The Work. Aspara, your drive to get out there and do something in the realm of Fourth Way method and record your own awakening process is doing something; its genuine activity, and on your own behalf. This is precisely why Venger focuses on The Left Hand Path, and with specific meanings, so that he can revive the LHP of yesteryear. A time when the LHP meant to get out there and do workings for YOU, and without the need of an orchestral conductor. You are your own conductor. Venger is merely the catalyst for actions you should be taking for yourself.
I use Satan as an expression, I work through it as much as it works through me. Satan, is the poetry of the world. Nature is Satan's Church. There is a natural order of things, and as Satan I oppose it. It may take legions of adversaries to oppose Nature and work it in such a way that it is formed into something that we can use. I work against my nature and the natural order of things. Satan is me, and it is the anti-me. It is Nyarlathotep dancing to the tune of Azathoth's flute. There are times in which you may feel yourself lull, and inspiration keeps you motivated. When you are motivated, you keep at your Work. Just as Satan is my muse, so is Venger Satanis. I think that the cultists are just as motivating to him, as he is to us. As he stated, you get out as much as you put in, its not always balanced, its chaos. Thus, the CoC is a cohesive thing without absolute cohesion, is an expression of Satan as the poetry of the world.
The CoC attracts the Occultist who thinks symbolically, it may even nurture the occult in those who answer the call.
If cultists are truly devoted to creating something out of this paradigm, they should be working at it themselves and not looking to VS to do it for them. I think he makes an extremely valid point, when he states that he does not want this quantum religion to end up like the state of Christianity today. The true intent of building the Kingdom of God, is completely lost in literalism. I can imagine the same could occur with the Cthulhu Cult. Rather than allowing this cultus to assist in your refinement, it could easily end up an Esoteric Order of Dagon, complete with mindless droning followers looking for a preacher at the pulpit to lead them into oblivion.
I think the real question is, what is it that you really want and why, and how can this fellowship inspire you to acquire it?
CS
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Post by boksmutant on Oct 10, 2011 12:43:04 GMT -6
I don't mind if forum activity is low, I do think newer Cultists could be throwing in more though. One thing we should be doing is remembering that most of us can spare a buck or two if needed & we could be putting it to some use. I say we should invest in pamphlets that quickly show what the Cult believes & could be handed out easily. So we'll need a bunch of them.
These Occupy Wall Street protests are a great way to proselytize. Just bring some pamphlets & sit there if you don't wanna preach. Make a Cthulhu symbol & just sit there if you have too. But we need something we could pass out.
I'm not familiar with how to get that done(publishing), but other religions do it just fine & it's packaged easily. Vengers for the Protests & so we should be taking this opportunity to not only be active in our community by showing our support, but pressing Cthulhu's agenda. I want the Cthulhu Cult to be a real religion with the backing to fight with the best of em for supremacy. I am a bit extreme, but I'm mostly just tired of everybody else:)
My goal is to help the protests stay publicly entertaining so others(moderates) will feel welcome when they just wanna walk through the crowed. A Cthulhu "booth" would add that feel of entertainment to the mostly hippie/unemployed crowed that is used to this life style of protesting. The protests will become the new entertainment for people tired of watching TV & being placated by the media. What I'm saying is that the Cthulhu Cult & us members can use the shock value(interesting conversation piece) of the Cult to add to the mix! "How fun & how strange" is what the moderates would say when they go home to their boring lives because there to conservative to be labeled a protester. It should be fun for the fearful to show up even with there damn kids! We...I want this to be the new entertainment for our generations. TALKING, fucking TALKING, for once! & not being afraid to be labeled!
I say the Cult & it's members have the diversity these protests need & that we could be helping on a social level while pushing Cthulhu's agenda.
Awake!
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Post by dudetyson on Oct 10, 2011 14:43:11 GMT -6
First, I don't feel degraded or anything by Venger's response. If anything, he was basically mature in response to what was a very pointed critique. Unfortunately my concerns still go unanswered...
(1) setting an example Maybe I'll start a grotto, but it would feel inauthentic until Venger does. The reason Christianity's disciples were so raw was because they had a figurehead who made the sacrifices. I'm not going to make the sacrifices necessary to start a grotto until the Cult's own leader also makes those sacrifices.
When one of Hitler's meetings was being attacked by Communists, he said "I WILL DIE BEFORE I MOVE OR STOP SPEAKING," and then threatened that any Nazis who retreated would be thrown out of the Party -- which, as a man willing to die where he stood, was a demand he could make. The Nazis beat the SHIT out of the Communists that day, against all numerical odds, and it was one of the last times the Communists ever tried to shut them down. (And you know how much this pains me as a modern-day bolshevik, yet I still find it inspiring.)
I'm gonna go live my life. When you can say to me, "Thus I have done," call me (on the phone! I eagerly await this news!) and I shall follow. As someone who has built radical cells, as someone who truly knows what it means to damage my own public reputation in the name of advocating a demonized ideology (literally proselytizing on the sidewalk), who has spoken in front of a crowd of 100, organized meetings and protests of the same number...your lack of even a four-person grotto just comes off as weaksauce.
I know it won't be next week with the baby still screaming all night and rental season going down. But an ubermensch should be able to gather some disciples within a year, right? Venger, if you are really the Jesus/Satan/Way, you might prove it to about five people in your immediate vicinity. Am I wrong about that? Say so if I am.
I mean shit, if you just TRIED, and posted about each of your adventures in seeking converts, that would be a huge improvement. You'd have more substantial magical relationships with the people you bumped into by combing Madison, Wisconsin than all the blogtalk radio-spamming in the world could give you.
(2) Systematic, Cult-wide mentoring Yes, we talked on the phone, which was productive. But I initiated it, not you. My point was that we need to be systematic about it, and it won't be systematic until the impetus comes from you. 4th Way schools indisputably involve direct, mentor-mentee relationships. We don't have those.
The whole reason of having grottos is to avoid the text-only situation. Dead messiahs are dead, we need living messiahs. Religion is not just books but people and experiences.
(3) To me a religion is about collective ritual Are we trying to expand or not? The term "Lovecraftian theocracy" would seem to imply that we are.
However, for me expansion is not merely about political change or saving others' souls or any of that. I find that for myself, in-person group rituals are immensely powerful for self-strengthening. The Cult does not, and cannot, offer that at the moment.
(4) Why I posted publicly/the obligatory smack-talk Ha, you think you already know why I posted this publicly? Indeed, I'm curious about my imagined motives, enlighten me! I am calling a spade a spade, shall you? Call me out, what is my sinister plan?
If you take my words at face value, I posted this publicly because in my experience, authorities always tell you your ideas are great in private, and then do nothing about them in actuality until they feel public pressure.
I wouldn't lump you in with those authorities except, we have already had this conversation -- mentoring is needed, structure is needed, you agreed. We were doing it for a while, and then ran into issues with what mode of communication we used. As the group consciousness/leader/memory, it's on you to keep our healthy habits persisting, or to simply stay on someone else to do so. If part of your claim to Man #7 is based on your business prowess...well, I would think this would be obvious.
The reason I decided to give a critique instead of manifesting my own will (which I do constantly, in my essays here and my work offline) was because these are problems with the Cult, a Cult with a supreme leader, therefore making it impossible to solve these problems without YOU making it a priority.
@cora'Sahn, yes I agree that the Cult has a lot to learn/teach -- and your list of it is awesome -- and this is why I find it silly not to expand (even if we are not for everyone, we are definitely for more people than we currently have). That expansion won't happen without the example being set from the top.
The Cult becoming like mass Christianity is not a threat we currently face; I should be thrilled if it was! A simple solution: if you start to expand, you make sure all potential joiners are truly living the paradigm before granting them formal membership. Have clergy do an interview of each one, or put them through some mentor-mentee initiation. **Nothing** I said was about diluting the Cult. I didn't say, "Make the Cult presentable to the majority!"
However, we do have many Cultists who, in my opinion, are uncritically praising of Venger. Not just praising -- *uncritically* praising. I'd be curious, if there were no grand poo-bah titles here, whose writing would be most popular: Venger's, mine, or yours? In fact some Cultists precisely fit your critique of the Dagonites, and I'm shocked if this hasn't occurred to you. So if that kind of possible future bothers you, it should already be bothering you now/already.
As for me, I've never raised a stink about the bootlickers because they don't interfere with me. In fact they give the place a nice insanity-aesthetic of gibbering degenerate madmen following the scary bald cult leader and desperately craving their master's approval. I suppose it's something I do not partake in but enjoy being surrounded by it? What can I say, I'm a freak. ;D
@boksmutanis: Lol, I often find the carnival atmosphere of the Occupy Wall Street imitations to be a liability rather than a blessing, but you're right, I cannot imagine a better place to recruit. I've seen a surprising amount of inverted pentagrams in the Philly contingent, and lots of mischievous merriment perfectly suited to our transdimensional anarchy of tentacles.
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Post by sin on Oct 10, 2011 16:18:36 GMT -6
Dude, I get it, I do. Followers choose their leaders, and I do see many following Venger's lead. Even if, that lead is provoking them to go off and do their own thing, completely separate from the Cthulhu Cult.
I've seen users become cultists, and cultists go back to being users. It should, at the very least, give us a clear view of the forest through the trees. We can observe man acting as the machine we discuss, otherwise its just shit talk. Believe me, I'm aware of the Dagonites among us, I don't think you should underestimate my level of awareness. Nor Venger's for that matter.
Should there be more face time, real talk, grotto work? Absolutely. Finding people is always a challenge, hell I was overly optimistic about Monster Fest this year. Lot's of Lovecraft fans, but not a single potential to be found. I'm back to the usual outlets, book stores, music stores, and gorilla pr. I wanted to get my own grotto resurrected by the end of October. That's still the goal, but I won't be devastated if it takes longer. I'd rather find dedicated people than wasting my time and spinning my wheels.
Calling Venger to the mat in his own state, is a valid call to action. I've seen many of these "shit or get off the pot" type complaints over the years, and perhaps when Venger finds the right people he will do that. I think his main focus is to get the message out, and he *hopes* that message is received well, and people get out and take action on their own behalf. Setting an example is a great way to lead a current. You also have to remember, that Venger is at his own Work as well. I don't think he claimed to be the Awakened Messiah, he too is working at his own life and sense of self.
This type of Work, is generally not enjoyable to most. When Gurdjieff talked about it appealing to only a small percentage, that should be apparent to you now. Those that are active, working, supporting others that are also observably working - represent that 5%. CS
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Post by talek on Oct 10, 2011 18:13:32 GMT -6
I wasn't going to respond, but since Dude posted as an opening for all, "my take" a Cultist I am, a Cthulhu Cultist, some may say I am not, but that is "their" opinion, some may say I am a boot licker, and a dagonist, again that is "their" opinion. Ipsissimus Satanis is the "Devil" and I will give the devil his due, I choose too.
Absolutely Brilliant is this Cult of Cthuhlu, in the reading of H P Lovecraft, I have found all that Master Lovecraft wrote about or alluded too, here in Cthulhu's cult. Devil worshipers, Black Magicians, Fourth Way advocates, Dreaming Cultist, Chaos Abounding, etc, if one was to look into HPL's writings, I am willing to bet you will find the same folks and Cultist here, whether in metaphor or in person, a Cthulhu Cultist. This is what makes this cult unique, this is why a lot of them folks in the so called LHP or Satanic world don't get us, and they just don't get us. I was here during the last "great debate", I just hope this time, we can keep this among fellow Cthulhu Cultist, for every one here has made honest and valid comments and responses, for I think we all care or we wouldn't be here, and quite frankly I am tired of the would be Satanic Assassins, but they do help with the "Great Work", for they too are a Tool to be utilized, just like everything else here, from user to Cultist, and if that means some Cultist are boot lickers or dagonist, so be it, some one just might get a shock into reality, like me!
I don't under estimate any one here, cause personally I DON'T KNOW YOU! but I will respect and honor the Cult's code and paradigm, and if asked to join a Grotto, where my fellow Cultist are, I would, for the fourth way says no man can wake up on his on, he has to have help, and nothing personal, but I don't want Ipsissimus Satanis being that Grotto's "Messiah", for each must do his own work, in his or her's own time and way.
I think, Dude, you made some great points! It takes a sly man to awake, or so the fourth way says. This cult is great, and I think you are right Dude, along with fellow Cultist here, adversarial comes with the Cthulhu's paradigm, and is the key to awaking Cthulhu within, and opening those gates, for when the stars are right!, but then again I am just happy this Cult is here, whether in forum form or a real live Grotto. I am sure ever one on this forum knows how this Cult sounds to the rest of the world, and if you don't I applaud you, for you are more insane then me!, but this insanity of ours, this dark green insanity of AWAKENED CONSCIOUS slime OF THE ANCIENT ONES, a magnetic center for the "Great Work" is what I think Priestess of R'lyeh Cora'Sahn says, this insanity is what makes that 5% FREE, of the world, but not in the world, use it! The Cult of Cthulhu is Ipsissimus Satanis!
No man may cometh unto Yog-Sothoth, but by him!
Talek Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods CULT OF CTHULHU!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2011 4:05:41 GMT -6
My opinion :
The Work must be done by yourself.
There is more than enough stuff on this forum, in Cthulhu Cult, and in cultofchtulhu.net to show the Way, to show in details what is Awakening and where it leads. The activity of Brother Satanis (and ours, as it should be) is to bring here newcomers. And anyway we can do nothing for the ones who do not feel attracted by our teaching.
Once someone thinks or feels it is worth studying a little, then this forum is here to answer to his questions.
And when he is getting seriously involved, as it is since the beginning of this universe, then HE IS ON IS OWN in face of the Work, of HIS Way, he must do it himself, nobody, Ipsissimus or not, is able to do the Work for him. And this is fair : one must prove that he is worthy by working himself.
Sure it is very important to stay in touch each other, and this forum is for that.
Remember this : YOYO (You're On Your Own)
But I will agree that we need a Green Mass, a well established Ritual that every Cultist is regularly performing. I think that will bring us something, knowing that THIS is the ritual of Cthulhu, a liturgy of our religion.
Remember yourself, for the emerald kingdom is at hand !
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Post by Verins'Sharaz on Oct 12, 2011 0:02:28 GMT -6
Here, here, Yrreiht! You hit the nail right on the head! The Work is solo; only you can walk your path. We can benefit from those who walk beside us for a time, but ultimately, it is ourselves we face at the end of the road, only to begin the journey anew.
By the Bloody Tongue of Nyarlathotep!
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 12, 2011 12:42:51 GMT -6
Ok, I wanted to give people room to talk - to bring their own ideas, agendas, and criticisms to the table. I've also been busy with other stuff. Thanks for everyone's feedback, and don't be afraid to keep speaking your mind...
Right out of the gate, I'd like to say something to Apsara Kamalli. I think your issues and Dude Tyson's issues are similar. Perhaps lemons versus limes? Just because I don't create a bureaucratic agency, doesn't mean I don't endorse a plan of action. One cannot always rely on Venger Satanis to smooth the way for the manifestation of one's will.
Am I walking the exact same path over and over again? I don't believe so. I've matured in both knowledge and being, yet the foundations remain the same. The Ipsissimus you see today is not the High Priest you saw three years ago. At least, that's my opinion. Anyone else think that I'm not pushing the Cult of Cthulhu further... to where it should be? If so, then please provide me with a reason for why you haven't done the work yourself?
Anton LaVey seemed to be able to do it all. He integrated his family, hobbies, business, lifestyle, and belief-system in order to manifest the Church of Satan. He wrote books, handled the media, built a central Grotto, and maintained his religion - it continued to thrive until Michael Aquino and company's exodus in 1975. Of course, all of this was before the internet.
Dude Tyson is right about the off-line Grotto that I intended to form in my own territory. I could have done more and should have done more. Sure, I have plenty of excuses or counter-arguments which no one yet has mentioned (except Dude Tyson with his crying baby at night comment and recognition that I have a business to run). Yes, I have a family now - which is my first priority. That's a big change in my life, one that people are just going to have to accept. I also work my ass off on non-Grotto activities in my free time. Regardless, I will get people together around the Madison, WI area. I appreciate the kick in the ass.
Why should someone follow me? I might be a Master of several key disciplines, but am still a work in progress. Should I not work on myself while maintaining a presence behind the scenes rather than work on finding ritual partners and 4th Way students? Ideally, I would do both. Sounds like people agree that I have reached such a stage in my own development.
On a related note, let's consider "sustained effort". How can effort sustain itself? Well, it can't. Someone needs to actively force it to continue. I believe certain efforts endure because they rely more on marathon tactics than sprint tactics. Sustained effort does a little at a time, rather than a few grand blowouts followed by diddly squat. I was born on the day of sustained effort, so I believe myself to be an authority on the subject. Other Cultists can choose sprinting if they prefer. Do I pull a few late nights here and there? Yes. Do I perform super-efforts every once in awhile? You bet. However, my process or progress of sustained effort is more like the running of a marathon. That's what works best for me.
As for the things like phone calls and texts and personal emails... no, I'm not usually going to initiate those. There are too many Cultists for that. I get a dozen or so emails or instant messages from people I don't know every week. These curious individuals ask for free PDFs of Cthulhu Cult or information on magic or simply wondering if the CoC is serious about what it purports to be.
The staying in communication conference call? Did it really help? Maybe. I couldn't see a difference in my own productivity levels. My efforts are organic. They go in directions that are demanded of them by my interpretation of Higher Forces. Did the bi-weekly conference calls help you, Dude Tyson? Did they help Cora'Sahn?
If someone came along who could be more like the off-line Hitlerian man of the people, protesting in the streets, giving speeches in bars, and organizing tons of people on the ground in a grass-roots Fight Club style movement, then I'd probably offer them the position of High Priest. Assuming the praxis, loyalty, and infectious charisma were abundantly evident, a man like Tyler Durden would be just what this religion needs. Such a man will one day make an excellent High Priest! I haven't seen him yet, but hope he arrives soon.
Conversely, the position of Ipsissimus, as you can imagine, is unlike that of High Priest. It requires a different skill-set. It presents unique challenges. Until a High Priest can be found, I will try my best to fill in the gap. A couple years ago, it was my intention to make Ego Diabolus and Beast Xeno the High Priests of the Cthulhu Cult. Obviously, that didn't manifest as I thought it would.
If any Cultist makes the same sacrifices that I do, then I applaud their efforts and will recognize their service by conferring upon them the appropriate degree. Rank has its privileges. If certain Cultists wish to bide their time until I or the Great Old Ones prove their worth by granting the wishes of those with particular expectations, then so be it. My efforts shall continue to sustain those who believe in me and the Cult of Cthulhu.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by sin on Oct 12, 2011 14:38:54 GMT -6
Well stated VS, and to provide you personal affirmation - I have personally witnessed your evolution (as much as any one can from a distance), over the years. An ever-changing, ever-growing individual, is a healthy one. In my opinion. In some manner, we go back to old I's (the tried and true) and at other times, new ones are needed. Bringing them all together into crystalization, is the challenge. If you recall one of my comments on an essay of yours, when we re-connected I stated: "Now this, this is the Venger Satanis I remember - welcome back..
Speaking generally here:
As for the phone-calls, I think they helped confirm my thoughts - 'this isn't going to last', and I was right. This helps me on some level, to try new things. I don't know if people are aware, how many people you may be in personal contact with, or I am for that matter. I don't just reserve my communication to the forums. People have my phone number, they call me when they feel compelled. I check in on them, see how they are doing, if they are on track or have changed the track. I update them on how I'm doing, where I am on my own track. That sort of thing. I also use my pod-cast to reach out to people, and give them a direct connect to me. Last week's show 'Beliefs', featured a Cthulhu Cultist as my co-commentator. So, ummm yeah - pay attention, the devil is always in the details.
Fight Club types - LOVE IT, always looking for them. Let's do some shit. I'm ready - why aren't you?
I do my typical pr stuff during the year (and continued that even when I wasn't involved in the cult officially). I just think the paradigm is friggin' genius. Whether I had personal conflict with Venger, seemed to be irrelevant. I am also not a grudge-master, I was not attached to the past conflict. Which, in my opinion, was just conversational.
I'm a real person, in the real world. I'm all up in the world. In the people, in the shit.
Public Library, looking for those awesome people out there somewhere.
Where the hell are you? Grotto resurrection is still on target, just met someone today that's down. That's two people so far. I started at zero. That's progress in my opinion.
*smirks*
CS
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Post by lokidreaming on Oct 12, 2011 19:52:26 GMT -6
Every group has there own problems regarding the amount of activity or inactivity that group.
There is no perfect progress in terms of growth; growth is always a squirt of growth and the a few sputtering of growth about to die out, it is a natural cycle.
Everyone can argue round in circles about the amount or lack amount of activity, which in turn confuses the situations even more.
It is up to the individual to figure out why they are still a member of the group and what they hope to still accomplish by being a member.
Every member of whatever groups they belong to have different level of skill in certain area, so it can be frustrating for members who have been with that group for a while, therefore the progress with influx of new members may appear like the WORK is slowing down.
Lost my train of thought.
Thank you VS for scolding off people like me as I know I am not doing enough as a member of the COC (still struggling with a few issues).
Beleif IS Reality Loki Dreaming
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Oct 12, 2011 22:13:56 GMT -6
This is a common view, it is common because man's nature is common. Once a person decides "Hey that sounds cool, let me check it out!" It's as if, they expect to arrive and have everything handed to them on a platter, all neatly laid out like an organized religion. In my personal experience, this paradigm relies heavily on chaos. There is much here that the CoC offers, so much in fact, that it would take a cultist many years to fully grasp it all. Man is impatient by nature, so when he becomes impatient (and over a short period of time) this is his machine, doing what machines do - act out of routine programming.
It may be a common view, but you have to consider that many of the masses we as Cultists interact with and refer over to the CoC are common. Do we want the common people? No, not necessarily. We want the uncommon, the abnormal, the chaotic. But, that's not the only type that we refer here, and we have the opportunity to mold the common into the uncommon if we apply some rational foundation. It may not be CoC style to have a neatly laid out paradigm, but it should be a priority for each cultist to recruit and mentor new members as per Lord Satanis' previous preachings. Without figuring out and implementing a plan for doing so, you run a high risk of not having a legacy that will live on past Venger Satanis because in the end, you only have a couple of loyal followers that will die off with you because no one else "got it" (the paradigm). If cultists are truly devoted to creating something out of this paradigm, they should be working at it themselves and not looking to VS to do it for them.
Right out of the gate, I'd like to say something to Apsara Kamalli. I think your issues and Dude Tyson's issues are similar. Perhaps lemons versus limes? Just because I don't create a bureaucratic agency, doesn't mean I don't endorse a plan of action. One cannot always rely on Venger Satanis to smooth the way for the manifestation of one's will.
[/color][/b] I understand what both of you are saying here, and I get it. I stated in my initial response that I agree with you, Lord Satanis, in the responsibility for manifesting my own will. However, I do have a couple of concerns with this logic.
1. If it's all about me, and manifesting my own will, then what's the point of joining the CoC? If it's about needing groups for growth in awareness, then you have to address what exactly it is that the CoC offers their members in regards to growth.
2. If I were to apply this, I think it would cause major problems. I mean, would you really be okay with me coming in here and announcing a new mentor program for Wizards of the Terrible Darkness' without the permission/input of the priesthood? I think the last time someone actually applied that, we called it the Decree of Heresy.
I associate this type of thing to my professional life. In business, just because you ask permission to do something different and you are told no today doesn't mean that it's "no" forever. From these situations, I've learned that it's usually better to beg forgiveness than ask for permission. The reason for this is because most of the time that the answer of "no" is given, it is because the person you are asking is insecure with change and/or their ego is preventing them from seeing clearly. I understand that there may be situations where the timing is off, or we don't have enough information, or... whatever, but these instances are fewer than other.
I'd love to manifest my own will, especially in regards to securing a future for the CoC. However, I'm not going to bang my head against a brick wall, and I'm not going to step on your tentacles and be asked to leave or be banned. Instead, I continue manifesting my will where I actually have the opportunity to make a difference and create my soul, and I check back in along the way to see where you're all at.
When the stars are right.
Apsara Kamalli Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by sin on Oct 13, 2011 7:09:57 GMT -6
All valid concerns Apsara,
Let me point out, that the mentoring program has been discussed a number of times, I have made every effort to make this information available to cultists by organizing it on the Social Network, and bumping topics here for discussion. There have been several discussions in which we are fine-tuning how to carry this out. A few months back, Dude Tyson made some suggestions that were useful (based on his own needs, and his observations of the needs of others). I've written a couple of essays which attempts to outline the 'Now what?' upon arrival. Venger and I converse about ways to draw attention to this information, as well as experimenting with application of those ideas. Whether it be mass emails, newsletters, youtubes, sharing updates on various social networking platforms, or Venger's appearance on various pod casts. Short of hand-holding people on an individual basis, its precisely about Will. Being mentored takes Will. The cultist makes contact, and requests it for himself. If you pay attention to the flow of discussions, you can see it for yourself. Each time a member thanks Venger for his help, his insights, his suggestions, this is mentoring. It occurs on an individual basis, as well as on a group basis.
May I recommend the role of a Mentor in Greek Mythology?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentor
I'm working with (3) cultists on an individual basis, directly (always room for more!). In addition, I check the forum/SN daily and post, answer questions, etc. I have both time and opportunity to do this and I do, Willfully.
I've been involved for a number of years, and I didn't seem to have any trouble following the current created by the CoC as the blob of chaos. It started with reading the Cthulhu Cult Bible, once I made up my mind (that I wanted to see where this was going) I gave it my full attention. If a cultist is not giving it their full attention, I can only conclude that they are either A)Willfully being lax due to non-interest or B)Being that rigid machine following its programming.
As for recruiting, I'm not sure that is the intent here - cultists answer a call. When that call is answered, it is that unwavering compulsion to stalk the CoC, all of its goings-on, and its participants like fanatics that give it momentum. The 'activity' or lack of activity, is attributed to the Will (or will) of the cultist.
We converse, kick around ideas, share method, results of practice, discuss individual goals, and at times group goals. If there are some group goals to be laid on the table, lets do that but remember its going to take the Will of the cultists to follow through. Otherwise, its just more shit talk with no walk behind it.
I think its great that you are concerned with the future of this paradigm, this organization, and would like to see it grow. Perhaps you have some vision for it, you would like to share and ways to see it manifest.
Cora'Sahn Priestess of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by glade on Oct 15, 2011 11:22:18 GMT -6
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Post by sin on Oct 18, 2011 13:04:33 GMT -6
cultofcthulhu.wall.fm/blogs/71This is merely one example, an earlier blog upon my return to the cult in April.
Any feedback on the current published mentoring program would be helpful.
CS
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Post by sin on Oct 18, 2011 13:08:51 GMT -6
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Oct 18, 2011 19:59:13 GMT -6
cultofcthulhu.wall.fm/blogs/71This is merely one example, an earlier blog upon my return to the cult in April.
Any feedback on the current published mentoring program would be helpful.
CS Is the current published mentoring program actually being done? Is it successful so far? I'd be happy to dig out my old information and send it over to you to take a look if you're interested. Awake Apsara Kamalli Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by sin on Oct 19, 2011 7:15:58 GMT -6
As VS mentions in the blog, the specific 'types' weren't really embraced, so its evolved into something more organic. The reason I shared the role of a mentor in Greek myth, is it tends to take on that spirit. I'm working with (3) more focused, but make myself available to anyone who has questions, needs some guidance or practical methods, critiques of writing, etc. I believe Venger is doing the same. The overall outline still rings true, it just needs a few tweaks. I have witnessed cultists helping each other, collaborating, and that sort of thing.
The blog explores what it means to mentor, and be mentored. I would consider it successful, at least in my experience thus far - it has only been a few months. I don't just limit myself to forum posts, I connect via phone, video chat, whatever is useful and helpful.
Feel free to share what you have, I'll take a look.
The finalized outline can be updated on the main website, but more focus should be placed on recognizing it, and the cultists being mentored - IMO.
Thanks Apsara.
CS
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Post by lokidreaming on Oct 21, 2011 1:31:49 GMT -6
1Why spend so much energy on so little effort?[/b]The journey is more important than the final result/equation and why you are not satisfied at the end of the effort is a reflection on the mistakes and dead ends you bump into, which hinders your results . So when people goes it doesn't work, I've tried it your way and it doesn't work. It is the person that is not working or is the wrong method for that person to use for whatever reason
2) The current theme of disatifactions that occur with current members and ex-members via this site and other sites is the lack of COC ritual work which that they desire the lack of substance underneath the service of this group
I have to agree with them reluctantly.
I personally do not see the COC accomplishing some stuff until after VS is well and truly in his grave and rolling around ( I am hoping VS takes this smilingly). As I read somewhere at The end of The 48 Laws of Power most of the work is continued or lost during the next generation.
So I personally don't see why some of this what will happen when VS is gone as I know that the COC will still be an active and viable entity for a long time.
I support VS as leader of the COC due to he has proofen to me that he can see the core truth in front of him for what it is (I also have huge respect for CS also because of the same reason).
There are a lot of ways that COC can grow and expand, however the COC must do this in a natural way which is beneficial to the COC and must not bow down to what people say is signs of a group growing and expanding the correct way.
All growth is static and chaotic, so to believe that COC will grow and improve constantly, you need a good knock to the head.
So those critizing other groups growth ( not just the COC as I have observed this behaviour in other groups as well) please refer to the above statement.
Those that want more practical stuff in here, why not create your own COC rituals to contribute to? Instead of waiting for more action on this group.
So what if you get rebuked time and time again. Try again and again.
I understand the need for a communal COC area for COC cultists to commune in, but there needs to be check and balances in place to make sure that the commune does not revert to sheep like flock mentality. In a way it can be more beneficial to do stuff online maybe? Whats the point in having COC members at a COC commune when they haven't found their inner self yet and just treating it like a groupy camp?
In closing I would like to apolpgize to the COC publicly for my lack of activity recently and that my essays and posts relating to the WORK and my progress in that area whichj I keep on saying will be posted will be delayed for a little while longer.
Belief IS Reality Loki Dreaming
ps:- I couldn't hold on any more so I had to write this post as I can't get this chain of post out of my head the last few days.
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Post by glade on Oct 21, 2011 9:47:29 GMT -6
I appreciate the links. Time to hit the books and focus on my path.
Awake.
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Post by sin on Oct 23, 2011 9:58:14 GMT -6
I've written on the meaning of a cult in the past (this cult more specifically more recently) and I tend to focus on the cultus as a methodology of refinement. In order to allow yourself to be refined by such a method, one would have to devote themselves to being a part of that method.
It begs to question, should this cult be recruiting? Recruitment is attracting people to the cult, screening them and assesing a person's qualifications to be a part of that refining mechanism.
Some would argue that this is an elitist tactic. Should we then, reject a potential cultist that answers the call if he doesn't meet our criteria? And if they do, how does the cultist become refined by making a list of demands for (of) them? Is religion demanding, or is it the embodiment of zealous devotion?
Venger writes (Necronomicon Satanis: Gate One): "I warn you humanity, do not force me to bend your will, control your mind, and explode your head. I prefer man to submit only to himself."
What does it say if a cultist submits to the demands of the cult?
He goes on to write:
"Recognize the fault is with one’s current program and not, as is typically believed, the lesser programmers who restrictively guard the tunnels of liberation."
and
"Center yourself, eye of the Ancient Ones. An unbalanced cultist may bleed uncontrollably in a single dimension where multiple realities heal with raw darkness. The initiate of nocturnal faces looks for indigo lightning when storms take hold. Universal forces disrupted… turmoil and apocalyptic whispers from the circle of stones… moments the cultist might seize unto his advantage. Jupiter misaligned causing acute angular distortions in our prison. Make use of these opportunities rarely afforded the magician."
Is the cultist then, balanced by demands or by self-discipline?
If a cultist is not committed to the Work, to the organization Cult of Cthulhu, this may explain the lack of activity and reported progress on his part.
If there is a lack of commitment, especially by those who visit the forums and post pretty regularly, is the Cult of Cthulhu paradigm merely a tool? Or is it the Quantum Religion it aspires to become?
CS
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Post by Kai'zen on Oct 23, 2011 22:01:38 GMT -6
I've just finished reading Prometheus Rising. This is the first topic I've read on the forums in two weeks. I'm now struggling to plug my subjective reality into all this.
The point of all this debate, an attempt to amend flaws in the CoC's modus operandi? An attempt to discuss the amendment of flaws in the CoC? I've never been one for huge strings of reasoned debates, one after another, so I'll present my thoughts in my customary form. Questions.
If the work is a solitary pursuit, why do we participate in a cult to begin with? Is any cultist willing enough to lose a limb for Dread Cthulhu? Is any cultist immersed enough in the paradigm to actually use it as a "subjective reality" or "reality tunnel"? Is it actually necessary to emotionalize a paradigm you intellectually accept?
I'm going to re-evaluate what the Cult can do for me, and what I can do for the Cult, perhaps I'll write something about it later.
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 24, 2011 8:32:49 GMT -6
There are three lines in the Work: 1) self Work which focuses on the individual, 2) Work with fellow students and student teachers - those who are already immersed in our Emerald paradigm, and 3) School Work. This is making efforts to benefit the Cult of Cthulhu and its leader.
It is not entirely a solitary pursuit, each Cultist must begin the first line of Work before proceeding towards the second and third.
Yes, one must emotionalize a concept too, not just accept it intellectually. Using a single center to understand our Viridescent Teaching will leave the Work unripened and sour tasting. The circuit cannot complete and we cannot fully develop without accessing first our ordinary emotional and intellectual centers and then our higher emotional and intellectual centers.
Ask yourself the following question. Until a Cultist is Conscious, should his will be considered subordinate to the Will of the Cthulhu Cult?
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by sin on Oct 24, 2011 11:58:59 GMT -6
Ascensions, are recognized levels of progress. Personal progress, and progress on behalf of the Cthulhu Cult. Those that have ascended thus far, should have their individual level of consciousness recognized, as well as, duties and responsibilities tied to that degree. At that point, if duties are neglected and responsibilities are not fulfilled, this would be considered an insubordination. So yes, a Cultist whether ascended or not, would then be subordinate to the Will of the Cthulhu Cult.
A note on initiates (those just starting out, learning, curious, using, etc., especially those whom have not agreed to the (3) lines in the Work), should they be expected to submit their will in favor of awakening level by level? Or would this only be expected for those who have officially applied for membership?
I would think that a person who enters into a contract, does so with full knowledge of what they are signing up for. In my personal observation, this isn't always the case. In fact, I've seen individuals with no official 'membership' elevate to initiate or higher degrees based on their knowledge and writing alone (in addition to the unaware applicant).
For example, in Islam there are (3) types of people referred to in the Qur'an:
Believer: A person who willfully enters into contract with Allah Non-Believer: A person who has not *yet entered into contract with Allah Dis-Believer: A person who has broken contract with Allah, and is no longer a Believer.
What say you?
CS
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Post by lokidreaming on Oct 25, 2011 21:16:07 GMT -6
Ask yourself the following question. Until a Cultist is Conscious, should his will be considered subordinate to the Will of the Cthulhu Cult?
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
In terms of how AWAKENED the cultist/occultist is before they joined the COC or how awakened that individual is a member of the COC? I would have to say there are very ADEPT/AWAKEN/CONSCIOUS cultist/occultist out there as one must be subordinate to that path and what is required of them on that path(s) they travel. However how ADEPT/AWAKEN/CONSCIOUS as a member of the COC is how much they are willing to submit to the COC and how much WORK one puts in. Person 1 is considered a good card player however he can not be classed as a good poker player until one plays thousands of hands Person 2 can be considered a good sportsman and softball player can not be considered a good tennis server unless they spend thousands of times hitting serves. One can be an adept occultist but not an adept COC cultist. Belief IS Reality Loki Dreaming
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Post by lokidreaming on Oct 25, 2011 22:00:28 GMT -6
I would think that a person who enters into a contract, does so with full knowledge of what they are signing up for. In my personal observation, this isn't always the case. In fact, I've seen individuals with no official 'membership' elevate to initiate or higher degrees based on their knowledge and writing alone (in addition to the unaware applicant).
For example, in Islam there are (3) types of people referred to in the Qur'an:
Believer: A person who willfully enters into contract with Allah Non-Believer: A person who has not *yet entered into contract with Allah Dis-Believer: A person who has broken contract with Allah, and is no longer a Believer.
What say you?
CS
What say I?
!!!OOPS!!! !!!BUSTED!!! I have suffering from bouts of major bouts of confusion and doubts the last few months and having performance related issues, hence why I haven't formally submitted my OFFICIAL MEMBERSHIP REQUEST yet. A small part still steems from not having the suitable environment to do practical stuff therefore at times I feel any writings I post will seem pointless. I have proofen to myself time and again regardless of my lack of practical know how, I know my foundations are getting stronger and that I have always been on the right track, just getting lost in my paranoia that people will judge me for the lack of practical works. It is a catch 22 situation, in most cases, no matter how much you know you are adept and know you can make it, you need something to show for it, some tangible concrete results. eg, Haven't been quite that lucky finding a proper job, therefore a lot of people think that my future plans for success is full or hot air, where the only hurdle in my future plans is the starting point of getting a job. so I can get a laptop and then I can do the coding for my website and make my writing books a lot easier ( I also would like to point out that this is the second time at getting my own business off the ground, second time round out of funds). So the only obstacle in any occult stuff is a suitable enviroment to get started; am moving to another backpackers in 2-4 weeks which has a cheap room which I can have all by myself. @cs It is other peoples validations I am after, it has never been the case, it is just me being frustrated with the catch 22 situation Entering a contract:-Sums it up very nicely how I have been feeling regarding as a member of a COC...LOL!!! Nearly went to panic mode after being upgraded by default to SENIOR MEMBER. I get through times like this by remembering a few song lyrics "This is the life we chose,the life we lead and there is only one guarantee...non of us will see heaven Test me...I'm the ambassador of pain,I rule all those who oppose Test me...I'm the ambassador of pain,I crush all those who oppose Annihilate yourself from all that is real Push the limit of self indulgence" In plain English, I am responsible for myself being here in the COC and continuing being a member with the COC, it is up to me whether I stumble and fall or succeed, therefore I need to stop making lame excuses. Belief IS Reality Loki Dreaming
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Post by sin on Oct 26, 2011 8:28:13 GMT -6
How do you measure your progress? Can you identify your foundations? If so, what are they?
I think peer-acceptance is fairly common, and rooted in the human condition. It is a human need to seek validation, as it resembles care and concern. For example, if I accepted you - this may provide you with a sense that *someone* gives a shit about you out there in the world. You can pat yourself on the back knowing that you are doing 'right', even if that right is quite wrong for you. If I reject you, or your ideals - this is often interpreted to be a rejection of you - period. I'm sure you see it yourself, when someone disagrees the response is to get emotional and react. Disagreement, seems to be processed as a rejection of the person rather than the idea they hold.
A note on your enviornment: I understand your living arrangements. My best advice to you, is to adapt yourself, vs. trying to control the environment you are in. In other words, work with what you have, and use it. I understand you will not always have access to the Internet to post more frequently. This doesn't mean your Work stops. Each person should be working on themselves, no matter the enviroment they are in. As you change yourself, your environment changes with you. You shape your reality.
I agree, there is no need to supply the readership with lame excuses. Instead, report your progress and obstacles, and steps you are taking to overcome them.
RISE! CS
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Post by glade on Oct 26, 2011 10:44:04 GMT -6
*a bit of anger rises in me.* if, I have to follow a rigid line of this and that then the COC isn't for me.
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