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Post by jasonsorrell on Feb 24, 2011 23:30:27 GMT -6
Satanism, perhaps, has answers to what needs to be done to ensure a better future for society. Any serious student of the Satanist Movement will eventually attempt to discern the social goals and potential impact of that movement on society at large. We are a "movement" after all, but the question raised is a movement toward what? The fringe elements of our movement, generally lead by short-sighted but mildly charismatic people and composed of followers grasping for some reason to be "a part of something special", suggest agendas like the abolishment of Christianity, the preparation for the final holy war, even the downfall of society. The unrealistic goals of the lunatic fringe keep the simple-minded, both within their organizations and outside the Satanist Movement, in awe and enthralled while making no actual progress toward anything. Satanists, of course, are not interested in the downfall of society; this society has provided us with the means of expression and the pursuit of our personal growth. We aren't interested in some mythical holy war; we recognize the ebb and flow of human history and are well prepared for whatever may come while we indulge in and maximize the now. We could care less about the drivel of Christianity; they have proved to be less and less effective in their 2000 years of practice and are clearly on the verge of imploding. Our focus, as it has always been, is on ourselves as individuals and how to achieve the most personal success and pleasure form our endeavors in the time we have to pursue them. When we dismiss the fictions purported from within and without our movement we come to the more rational question of our goals. Among them is the concern that we would be interested in seeing a world populated by Satanists. After all, this tends to be the goal of most major religions, and almost all the minor ones (whether actively pursued or passively waited upon). As we are to the contrary on so many other points, it is often surprising, even to some Satanists, that such an idea is not only incorrect, but abhorred by most Satanists. Satanists are leaders and creators; they require a group willing to be lead and willing to appreciate their creations. A world full of Satanists would rip itself apart; 6 billion plus individuals seeking to establish their own mark on the planet and our history. Furthermore, being a Satanist is in itself a rare commodity; most people do not have the inherent compulsion and would be ill equipped to be a Satanist, or even to fake it. Satanists are "real" unto themselves, a perspective that cannot be artificially induced. Read the rest of this post and other posts on Satanism, the occult, and how our subculture is changing consensual reality at crawlingchaoscoc.blogspot.com/2010/09/satanic-social-goals.html.
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Post by boksmutant on Feb 25, 2011 7:00:54 GMT -6
Not very optimistic:) Getting behind one another & being active is good, except something else is missing, something long term. I could say spiritual, but that might not be the right word. Its to bad humans need to be reminded of whats important, its definitely one of our week points as a race. Spirituality is key to keeping us on track. Awake!
Awake!
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Post by jasonsorrell on Feb 25, 2011 9:08:11 GMT -6
The intent of my post was not to be optimistic or pessimistic, just realistic. How can one hope to gain greater participation in their reality if they only permit themselves to see that reality through rose-colored glasses? This "spirituality" that you believe will keep us on track... what is it? Is it a set of rules, a goal of some sort, or the threat of retribution for poor choices? It would be great if you could post your comments on my blog itself: crawlingchaoscoc.blogspot.com/2010/09/satanic-social-goals.html. I would love to continue this conversation further. By the way "week" is a period of 7 days. "Weak" is the word for fraility, the opposite of strength.
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 25, 2011 14:45:53 GMT -6
One needs to further distinguish between productive, creative, and profitable. Do you know where I'm going with this?
Tried to post this right on your blog, but the "select profile" area didn't like me... must be genetic. Hahaha.
For myself, and by extension the Cult of Cthulhu, spirituality is perspective - a way of seeing and experiencing reality. Spirituality, on its own, is neither good nor evil, fruitful nor fruitless, but depends on its use. It can be a set of rules just as it can be a handful of goals. It can be many things!
FYI, here on the CoC forum you, Jason, as everyone, will be forced to discuss issues on their own merits without personal attacks. The kind of argument-winning tricks used by Jason King and similar people won't be tolerated here. If that dissuades you from posting here, then I'll just have to accept your sudden disappearance.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by jasonsorrell on Feb 25, 2011 15:18:37 GMT -6
FYI, here on the CoC forum you, Jason, as everyone, will be forced to discuss issues on their own merits without personal attacks. The kind of argument-winning tricks used by Jason King and similar people won't be tolerated here. If that dissuades you from posting here, then I'll just have to accept your sudden disappearance.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
What?
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Post by nyrlthtp on Feb 25, 2011 16:31:42 GMT -6
...Any serious student of the Satanist Movement will eventually attempt to discern the social goals and potential impact of that movement on society at large. Satanity extends beyond individual or group Satanisms and also beyond any single society, including the 'jumping' into Christian cultures beyond the merely American, or English-speaking. We are a "movement" ... a movement toward what? it is reactionary and thus liberation-centered. those who attempt to identify and, especially, constrain the direction of said movement are either disruptive or inhibitory, ultimately dissolving and diluting the overall effects possible. this includes your attempts to define some ubiquitous interests which you stipulate that Satanists are uniform in supporting. this isn't realistic. it is my contention that you are attempting to install RHP standards atop an effectively LHP network. doomed to failure. were you to, comparatively, argue for what you like, in a straight-forward manner, then i could find agreement with you. let me restructure your text as i would prefer it: "My Satanism has answers to what needs to be done to ensure a better future for society. As a serious student of the Satanist Movement, I have attempted to discern the social goals and potential impact of that movement on society at large. As a movement, I find it valuable to ask: a movement toward what? Some elements of our movement, generally led by short-sighted but mildly charismatic people and composed of followers grasping for some reason to be "a part of something special", suggest agendas like the abolishment of Christianity, the preparation for the final holy war, even the downfall of society. These unrealistic goals keep the simple-minded, both within their organizations and outside the Satanist Movement, in awe and enthralled while making no actual progress toward anything. As a Satanist, I am not interested in the downfall of society; this society has provided us with the means of expression and the pursuit of our personal growth. I am not interested in some mythical holy war; I recognize the ebb and flow of human history and am well-prepared for whatever may come while I indulge in and maximize the now. I could not care less about the drivel of Christianity; it has proved to be less and less effective in its 2000 years of practice and is clearly on the verge of imploding. My focus, as it has always been, is on myself as an individual and how to achieve the most personal success and pleasure from my endeavors in the time I have to pursue them."
etc. I enjoy your expression, but think that your willingness or interest in rallying is contra-Satanity at its base while it subsumes stray will to a RHP-modality. idealistic as it is false. neither are all Satanists leaders and creators, nor is there any requirement or constraint forcing this to be so. your unrealistic expectations factor into your obvious expressed disappointment in your videos (such as 'Bring Something to the Table', 'Pagan Pretenders' and 'Fraternal Order of Satanist Rednecks') about others, focussing negatively in immature ways on the pitiful progenators of a pugilistic politic pulling for a Promethean primacy. again, false by a failure to control. there are many within the Satanist Current so-called who seek to lead by yanking on chains, driving by definitions, and generally demeaning into conformity what you find valuable. you don't seem to understand that this is the same modality of Herd-stimulation that is exercised by Christianity and many other universalist cults the world 'round. the true leaders need not engage in this type of sniping acid criticism, damaging all who come within a sphere of influence, but instead flow forward a contribution of empowerment and unlimited resource, explaining the principles of self-empowerment and the technical options available to those of myriad character and background. ...Getting behind one another & being active is good, except something else is missing, something long term. I could say spiritual, but that might not be the right word. ... Spirituality is key to keeping us on track. aggregate confluence is helpful toward movement, this is plain. whether the direction of that movement is beneficial to any one faction or individual is another matter and far from clear. typically those within the anti-Christian cultus never learned what spirituality is, cannot see its way to examining this without blinders, and at best equates this to holistic integrity. so be it. while i agree with your assessment of the value of spirituality, i am not convinced that its actuality is grasped in any clarity by the ordinary Satanian. it may help that an attempt to integrate luciferian/gnostic/sufi rudiments from fringe (crazy wisdom) masters is being made here, but whether they knew anything more about it themselves remains to be seen. those promoting their cause seem to proceed as from an axiomatic premise. The intent of my post was not to be optimistic or pessimistic, just realistic. then as you can see from my response my evaluation of your realism is that you have failed here to encapsulate either a realistic assessment of the Satanian movement or to express yourself in a manner that is conducive to its continuation with any security. this is, in part, the challenge we face today due to the reactionary and immature character of the movement being examined. How can one hope to gain greater participation in their reality if they only permit themselves to see that reality through rose-colored glasses? the notion that one is in complete control is an illusion born of personal aggrandizement. granting instead that everyone has the potential to see missing pieces of the proper picture due to perception and interpretation seems more realistic and humble (humility being the primary element missing from the bulk of (crazy) wisdom teacher advancements). {What is this} "spirituality" that you {boksmutant} believe will keep us on track...? Is it a set of rules, a goal of some sort, or the threat of retribution for poor choices? while i could not answer for him, as you may see in my above evaluation of his expression i am not convinced that the has thought this very clearly through (nor have the bulk of those who use the term). as i understand it, spirituality is the intended optimizing of aggregate experience. this aggregation may only apply within a given individual's life, or it may extend beyond it to something larger such as one's cult, culture, or species. it may even extend beyond the species to encompass an entire cosmology, if one is inspired or zealous. if it produces or leads to a set of rules, these are tentative and contextually-derived at best. it is a goal based on condition (of experience) rather than on configuration (of objects, persons, or relationships). I'm unsure that threats are ever helpful to its emergence, especially long-term. One needs to further distinguish between productive, creative, and profitable. Do you know where I'm going with this? ... I'm going to guess that it resembles some portion of doctrines forming the ideologies of Gurdjieff or Ouspensky, and since i am not that smitten with them, will presume that i probably don't really know where you're going. all the same, the discernment does seem important, generally, since productivity isn't always desirable, creativity is over-rated as compared to destructivity, and profit is too often misunderstood from exploitative axioms of evaluation. For myself, and by extension the Cult of Cthulhu, spirituality is perspective - a way of seeing and experiencing reality. Spirituality, on its own, is neither good nor evil, fruitful nor fruitless, but depends on its use. It can be a set of rules just as it can be a handful of goals. It can be many things! in many respects, as you can see from the above, we agree on aspects of meaning respective of the term 'spirituality'. mediated by perspective, both in terms of species as well as position, it is my contention that experience is its primary arena of reality. belief has an affect on this, but objectivist standards of biology and anthropology may be brought to bear in an evaluation of its quality.
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Post by nyrlthtp on Feb 25, 2011 16:50:45 GMT -6
...here on the CoC forum you, Jason, as everyone, will be forced to discuss issues on their own merits without personal attacks. The kind of argument-winning tricks used by Jason King and similar people won't be tolerated here. If that dissuades you from posting here, then I'll just have to accept your sudden disappearance. What? he was referring to your query where you might be inferred to mean previous threads (such as ' A Decree of Heresy') in which rampant disrespect was (at least temporarily) tolerated:
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Post by jasonsorrell on Feb 25, 2011 17:43:08 GMT -6
...Any serious student of the Satanist Movement will eventually attempt to discern the social goals and potential impact of that movement on society at large. Satanity extends beyond individual or group Satanisms and also beyond any single society, including the 'jumping' into Christian cultures beyond the merely American, or English-speaking. it is reactionary and thus liberation-centered. those who attempt to identify and, especially, constrain the direction of said movement are either disruptive or inhibitory, ultimately dissolving and diluting the overall effects possible. this includes your attempts to define some ubiquitous interests which you stipulate that Satanists are uniform in supporting. this isn't realistic. it is my contention that you are attempting to install RHP standards atop an effectively LHP network. doomed to failure. were you to, comparatively, argue for what you like, in a straight-forward manner, then i could find agreement with you. let me restructure your text as i would prefer it: "My Satanism has answers to what needs to be done to ensure a better future for society. As a serious student of the Satanist Movement, I have attempted to discern the social goals and potential impact of that movement on society at large. As a movement, I find it valuable to ask: a movement toward what? Some elements of our movement, generally led by short-sighted but mildly charismatic people and composed of followers grasping for some reason to be "a part of something special", suggest agendas like the abolishment of Christianity, the preparation for the final holy war, even the downfall of society. These unrealistic goals keep the simple-minded, both within their organizations and outside the Satanist Movement, in awe and enthralled while making no actual progress toward anything. As a Satanist, I am not interested in the downfall of society; this society has provided us with the means of expression and the pursuit of our personal growth. I am not interested in some mythical holy war; I recognize the ebb and flow of human history and am well-prepared for whatever may come while I indulge in and maximize the now. I could not care less about the drivel of Christianity; it has proved to be less and less effective in its 2000 years of practice and is clearly on the verge of imploding. My focus, as it has always been, is on myself as an individual and how to achieve the most personal success and pleasure from my endeavors in the time I have to pursue them."
etc. I enjoy your expression, but think that your willingness or interest in rallying is contra-Satanity at its base while it subsumes stray will to a RHP-modality. idealistic as it is false. neither are all Satanists leaders and creators, nor is there any requirement or constraint forcing this to be so. your unrealistic expectations factor into your obvious expressed disappointment in your videos (such as 'Bring Something to the Table', 'Pagan Pretenders' and 'Fraternal Order of Satanist Rednecks') about others, focussing negatively in immature ways on the pitiful progenators of a pugilistic politic pulling for a Promethean primacy. again, false by a failure to control. there are many within the Satanist Current so-called who seek to lead by yanking on chains, driving by definitions, and generally demeaning into conformity what you find valuable. you don't seem to understand that this is the same modality of Herd-stimulation that is exercised by Christianity and many other universalist cults the world 'round. the true leaders need not engage in this type of sniping acid criticism, damaging all who come within a sphere of influence, but instead flow forward a contribution of empowerment and unlimited resource, explaining the principles of self-empowerment and the technical options available to those of myriad character and background. aggregate confluence is helpful toward movement, this is plain. whether the direction of that movement is beneficial to any one faction or individual is another matter and far from clear. typically those within the anti-Christian cultus never learned what spirituality is, cannot see its way to examining this without blinders, and at best equates this to holistic integrity. so be it. while i agree with your assessment of the value of spirituality, i am not convinced that its actuality is grasped in any clarity by the ordinary Satanian. it may help that an attempt to integrate luciferian/gnostic/sufi rudiments from fringe (crazy wisdom) masters is being made here, but whether they knew anything more about it themselves remains to be seen. those promoting their cause seem to proceed as from an axiomatic premise. then as you can see from my response my evaluation of your realism is that you have failed here to encapsulate either a realistic assessment of the Satanian movement or to express yourself in a manner that is conducive to its continuation with any security. this is, in part, the challenge we face today due to the reactionary and immature character of the movement being examined. the notion that one is in complete control is an illusion born of personal aggrandizement. granting instead that everyone has the potential to see missing pieces of the proper picture due to perception and interpretation seems more realistic and humble (humility being the primary element missing from the bulk of (crazy) wisdom teacher advancements). while i could not answer for him, as you may see in my above evaluation of his expression i am not convinced that the has thought this very clearly through (nor have the bulk of those who use the term). as i understand it, spirituality is the intended optimizing of aggregate experience. this aggregation may only apply within a given individual's life, or it may extend beyond it to something larger such as one's cult, culture, or species. it may even extend beyond the species to encompass an entire cosmology, if one is inspired or zealous. if it produces or leads to a set of rules, these are tentative and contextually-derived at best. it is a goal based on condition (of experience) rather than on configuration (of objects, persons, or relationships). I'm unsure that threats are ever helpful to its emergence, especially long-term. I'm going to guess that it resembles some portion of doctrines forming the ideologies of Gurdjieff or Ouspensky, and since i am not that smitten with them, will presume that i probably don't really know where you're going. all the same, the discernment does seem important, generally, since productivity isn't always desirable, creativity is over-rated as compared to destructivity, and profit is too often misunderstood from exploitative axioms of evaluation. For myself, and by extension the Cult of Cthulhu, spirituality is perspective - a way of seeing and experiencing reality. Spirituality, on its own, is neither good nor evil, fruitful nor fruitless, but depends on its use. It can be a set of rules just as it can be a handful of goals. It can be many things! in many respects, as you can see from the above, we agree on aspects of meaning respective of the term 'spirituality'. mediated by perspective, both in terms of species as well as position, it is my contention that experience is its primary arena of reality. belief has an affect on this, but objectivist standards of biology and anthropology may be brought to bear in an evaluation of its quality. I really only had one thing I wanted to comment on here, because it is really a lot of superfluous words all around, by you and me. The idea that an Individual would wish to exchange with other Individuals, and by virtue of their example as Individuals and the nature of their exchange does not presume an RHP motivation. As an Individualist who identifies with Satanism, certain goals would promote my ability to exist as an individualist if encouraged among Satanists, either through the concurrence of the other Individualists or through the compliance of the sheep-in-wolves clothing. In either way, my self-interests are served. I do not think that even the concept of RHP/LHP is sufficient to explain this motivation. Through serving my own interest and seeking justice in my exchange with others, the masses are served by having an example, and by having one less flea feeding on the social-corpse. My motivation is self-serving, but the result may be for the betterment of all. My interest in exchanging with others is not altruistic. Even here, today, my slight investment has gained significant returns, and my purpose is being served.
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Post by nyrlthtp on Feb 25, 2011 23:12:53 GMT -6
...you are attempting to install RHP standards atop an effectively LHP network. doomed to failure. ...your willingness or interest in rallying is contra-Satanity at its base while it subsumes stray will to a RHP-modality. ...an Individual would wish to exchange with other Individuals, and by virtue of their example as Individuals and the nature of their exchange does not presume an RHP motivation. if something was to be gained by engaging said individuals, espousing that all of such individuals would share the same ideological constructs is erroneous by my understanding. attempting to promote this notion of an overarching shared ideology is partly what i was pointing out as RHP-pandering. presuming that all individual Satanists would be leaders and creative artist seems likewise to be over-reaching. As an Individualist who identifies with Satanism, certain goals would promote my ability to exist as an individualist if encouraged among Satanists, either through the concurrence of the other Individualists or through the compliance of the sheep-in-wolves clothing. In either way, my self-interests are served. with this of course i strongly concur. it is precisely for this purpose that i struggle with you. diversity of opinion serves both our purposes, and yet opposition to faulty cosmologies, or fascistic leader-worship, and like errors or unsustainabilities, may serve a wider and more enduring Current i seek to entertain and foment. make no mistake about it. with you, and i think you know this, on the ground, i seek to oppose many of the follies you criticize, but i would not like to expand and concretize to the status of dogmas with exclusionary rigidity any sort of doctrine or philosophic standard in the context of Satanity. if i see this being promoted, even for individual motivations deemed beneficial to all involved, to universal character, i am likely to oppose its exaggeration as an error. I do not think that even the concept of RHP/LHP is sufficient to explain this motivation. Through serving my own interest and seeking justice in my exchange with others, the masses are served by having an example, and by having one less flea feeding on the social-corpse. My motivation is self-serving, but the result may be for the betterment of all. ... again, idealistic. my aim was something just also, in a like manner. once we approach the interaction with the same motivation, then we may pay more attention to the extended repercussion of our form of expression, the solidity or dogmatic character of what we maintain, and how much leeway we allow for those seeking to become our team-mates, networkers, etc.
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Post by herbert on Feb 27, 2011 1:58:02 GMT -6
...an Individual would wish to exchange with other Individuals, and by virtue of their example as Individuals and the nature of their exchange does not presume an RHP motivation. if something was to be gained by engaging said individuals, espousing that all of such individuals would share the same ideological constructs is erroneous by my understanding. attempting to promote this notion of an overarching shared ideology is partly what i was pointing out as RHP-pandering. presuming that all individual Satanists would be leaders and creative artist seems likewise to be over-reaching. with this of course i strongly concur. it is precisely for this purpose that i struggle with you. diversity of opinion serves both our purposes, and yet opposition to faulty cosmologies, or fascistic leader-worship, and like errors or unsustainabilities, may serve a wider and more enduring Current i seek to entertain and foment. make no mistake about it. with you, and i think you know this, on the ground, i seek to oppose many of the follies you criticize, but i would not like to expand and concretize to the status of dogmas with exclusionary rigidity any sort of doctrine or philosophic standard in the context of Satanity. if i see this being promoted, even for individual motivations deemed beneficial to all involved, to universal character, i am likely to oppose its exaggeration as an error. I do not think that even the concept of RHP/LHP is sufficient to explain this motivation. Through serving my own interest and seeking justice in my exchange with others, the masses are served by having an example, and by having one less flea feeding on the social-corpse. My motivation is self-serving, but the result may be for the betterment of all. ... again, idealistic. my aim was something just also, in a like manner. once we approach the interaction with the same motivation, then we may pay more attention to the extended repercussion of our form of expression, the solidity or dogmatic character of what we maintain, and how much leeway we allow for those seeking to become our team-mates, networkers, etc. guy, i can't figure out what this says. the words are all english but the message seems to be from melmac. since when do fleas feed of corpses?
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Post by nyrlthtp on Feb 28, 2011 14:00:55 GMT -6
since they began to use silverware.
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