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Post by Erebos on Feb 1, 2011 9:06:31 GMT -6
I have been wondering this since first I posted on a drug topic. People say they support drugs because they help you focus or awaken more, which I don't really agree with. Then others say that its good to try new things, which I don't believe can really be the same with drugs.
Though I was hoping to hear from the High Priest himself in one of those topics, but I haven't seen it. So I figured I would ask hear to find my answer and to attempt to be more active as I have been falling away from the forum as I became busy.
Now I would like anyone else opinion as well since I like getting information from all possible sources, but my main goal here is to get some authorities thoughts on the use of drugs and becoming high.
Does it really help in this cult's true goals? Or does it make it harder to achieve the goals.
I will post more of my opinion later after some post but right now I wish to watch.
Belief Is Reality!
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 1, 2011 11:12:48 GMT -6
A thread like this usually appears a few times every year. That's one of the reasons I don't jump on such topics when they rear their frequently asked head. But since you've addressed me specifically... how could I refuse?
To a certain extent, I don't care what people do with their personal lives. Drugs aren't necessary, but some feel that hallucinogenics have their place. If an individual decides to indulge, then do so in moderation. Becoming an addict won't help you, others, or the Cthulhu Cult.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Erebos on Feb 1, 2011 19:13:45 GMT -6
Thank you for your speedy response High Priest and once again you answer as I think which makes this cult even more appealing.
However, I would like anyone else's opinion on this subject and if you wish to add anything High Priest Venger I would greatly appreciate it.
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Post by K'zin Z'tari on Feb 1, 2011 19:47:41 GMT -6
Drugs keep you asleep and thats it,and the way to awakening is not possible with drugs,that is,to reach that state,being awake.
For people who do drugs,they become their magnetic center and they are far from being awake,just typical sleepers.
Believe me,I know.
Awake
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Post by symbolicone on Feb 1, 2011 22:52:48 GMT -6
Drugs are simply a tool at your disposal. What you take from the experience is up to you. There is much to learn, and with all things in life, there are risks. Being addicted to anything is bad. But if you have the force of will to use it to your advantage and control it, then it can be very useful.
It's all about discipline, if you can control it and make it work for you, then use it. If not, then don't.
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Post by boksmutant on Feb 1, 2011 23:45:27 GMT -6
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Post by Erebos on Feb 2, 2011 15:49:31 GMT -6
Sorry, symbolicone, but I must agree with Krunki. I can see where your coming from though, but there is no use in taking something that blurs your sense of your surroundings even if you control it.
Sure, they may be able to help someone make their belief stronger or feel more attuned with their path, but in my opinion that is not what someone wants. By taking drugs you submit your Will to them even if you are not an addict. You may not always be able to control what you do, think, or say. I guess you could use Belief is Reality by believing drugs help, but is that really you believing that? Or is it the drugs, your Will could have already been defeated by them without your knowing because your senses have been shot.
Even if you believe drugs help you with your awakening that, I believe, is false. Drugs put you into a deeper false reality than your already prisoned in. To awaken you must overcome this false reality, right? Aren't drugs just creating another false reality that you must overcome? I believe so, and if you cannot create a sense of euphoria by yourself from your own body chemicals and mind then you are not closer to awakening while taking an alien substance to skip past that step in awakening.
I warn you do not skip the step of achieving that feeling by yourself and not from damaging drugs. You may also say that your only using drugs until you can do that, but that right there is also the detrimental thinking. Drugs may have a stronger effect on your mind and you may not be able to tell when you have achieved that great feeling state by yourself or if it was just the drugs damaging your mind.
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Post by hartnell on Feb 2, 2011 15:54:14 GMT -6
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Post by Erebos on Feb 2, 2011 16:13:35 GMT -6
I have seen something on this subject before, and my opinion is still a bit hazy on it as I still do not have much information on it, but I will express my opinion at the moment the best I can. I believe it follows along the same path as my writing on the drugs. It stimulates the mind for you instead of you working to stimulate your own mind. When things come down to the mind you must work largely by yourself to develop it. While this could be a better alternative than doing drugs, if you feel they help, but it can still take you off your path. As for health benefits, that is the same with some drugs. Steroids help those who have had physical trauma, and marijuana helps some things too. This helps as well and can be used in control for those reasons, but to achieve awakening? I don't believe so. Belief Is Reality!
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Post by hartnell on Feb 2, 2011 16:16:57 GMT -6
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Post by Ikaros on Feb 2, 2011 17:05:40 GMT -6
It shouldn't be surprising that drugs should arouse such diverse opinions. I feel that we are using the blanket term drugs a little too broadly. Let's make some distinctions.
Firstly, lets place legal drugs in their own category. I don't think anyone would argue that if you have a headache you shouldn't take aspirin. However, pharmaceuticals can be misused. The chief example is opiates. Included in this category is a whole slew of psycho-active medications that change brain chemistry, like Xanax, Ambien, Ritalin, and Klonopin, just to name a few. I am interested to hear about what value people place on this kind of substance.
The next category of drugs is industrially processed illegal drugs. Heroine (another opiate), meth, and cocaine are just a few examples of this. Note, I have separated cocaine from the actual coca plant. From my personal experience, these do exactly what Brother Erebos said:
A final category of drugs are those naturally occurring plant materials that are probably the most widely used. Mainly, I speak of marijuana, as it has gained a strong prominence in Western culture. Honestly, I find the effects to be similar to alcohol (which I haven't categorized yet). If either of these form an addiction, which they are prone to do, then they should be avoided. As for myself, pot has never been one of my favorite things. I indulge in alcohol, but when I do lose control of my usage I then make it a point to abstain for a month in order to break that connection.
Also in this category are herbs that are a little more rare, but when used with respect and in a sacred context can yield surprising results. From my personal experience, mushrooms, salvia divinorum, and artemisia vulgaris (but not absinthium) all have the potential to open up my mind, assist in lucid dreaming, and get outside of the moment. However, the key is self control. I don't use these substances more than once a month. Specifically because of their potency, I only use shrooms once a year, usually around Halloween.
In conclusion, I would say that self-determination is the greatest rule when it comes to any mind-altering substance. If any of these substances is used to avoid the task of Awakening then they should be avoided. Know your body. Know your mind. Know yourself.
Awake!
Ikaros
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Post by hartnell on Feb 2, 2011 17:13:15 GMT -6
"Drugs put you into a deeper false reality than your already prisoned in."
If find that reality is neither true or false, but interpreted.
I know, I know, "If someone shoots you, if you fall off a cliff", etc.. all I can say is give it a shot and tell me what happens from practical experience.
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Post by Erebos on Feb 2, 2011 18:54:37 GMT -6
Hartnell, to sum it all up without going through various Wikipedia pages I will state this as broadly as I can. I don't believe any mind-altering will help me in awakening and I see that as truth in most cases.
Though, as Ikaros puts it I can see where they may help some people. I can't say much from experience as I have decided to stay away from the detrimental drugs altogether as I am moving along good enough with out their help. I can see how this may not be the case for everyone but it is for me and I'm sure for at least a few others.
If you want to try drugs I would recommend Ikaros's method of waiting a month after taking them. That is good in many ways, but still I say if you can do it by yourself then you should make that stronger and avoid drugs altogether.
Also, thank you, Ikaros for categorizing them as I agree with that description and may help organize things here more.
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Post by hartnell on Feb 2, 2011 19:26:16 GMT -6
You don't need an authority's permission to pursue your path in the way that you choose. You are the only authority that matters. Either 'drugs' are effective or they are not for your purposes and the choice to use them or not is entirely up to you.
I'm not the mysterious, trenchcoat-wearing 'drug dealer' you've been educated to believe is trying to get you, other people, kids, and random pets 'hooked' on drugs.
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Post by Ikaros on Feb 2, 2011 20:00:06 GMT -6
You don't need an authority's permission to pursue your path in the way that you choose. You are the only authority that matters. Either 'drugs' are effective or they are not for your purposes and the choice to use them or not is entirely up to you. I'm not the mysterious, trenchcoat-wearing 'drug dealer' you've been educated to believe is trying to get you, other people, kids, and random pets 'hooked' on drugs. Brother hartnell, I don't think anyone thinks this of you for a second. However, I must disagree with one point you have made. As I understand the nature of the Cult, Ipsissimus Satanis is the authority one should ask when he or she is questioning a set of actions and their effects on the Cult. This is what Brother Erebos did. I did want to clarify one thing. Rereading what I wrote previously, one might get the impression that I am a frequent drug user. How one defines this is up to them. In reality, I have had a fair amount of experience with drugs. This is why I felt I should speak on their benefits and dangers. However, outside of a yearly ritual I mentioned, I maybe partake 2 or 3 times a year. Having dealt with a meth addiction, I exercise extreme caution. Currently, the only drug I am addicted to is tobacco. There is an active thread dealing specifically with tobacco addiction, so I didn't bring it up here. I will admit that it is possible that this addiction is a hindrance to my Awakening, but I have no desire to quit. His ichor cleanses the sin of all mankind! Ikaros
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Post by hartnell on Feb 2, 2011 20:36:17 GMT -6
Who said I was speaking for Venger? I don't think that's even possible. Let me see if I can summon his spirit on my Ouiji Board....
H. O.
Santa?
S. S.
I'll be damned.
But seriously :
"Now I would like anyone else opinion as well since I like getting information from all possible sources,"
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Post by Ikaros on Feb 2, 2011 20:44:45 GMT -6
Who said I was speaking for Venger? I don't think that's even possible. Let me see if I can summon his spirit on my Ouiji Board.... H. O. Santa? S. S. I'll be damned. But seriously : "Now I would like anyone else opinion as well since I like getting information from all possible sources," I never said you were speaking for Ipsissimus Satanis. I was merely pointing out that he had already issued his opinion on this (see the second post). You were talking about the need for authority to pursue your path. As regards the Cult, Ipsissimus Satanis is the authority. Hail Satanis! Ikaros
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Post by hartnell on Feb 2, 2011 20:55:02 GMT -6
"As regards the Cult, Ipsissimus Satanis is the authority."
Well, yes, it is his cult. Duh.
On the other hand, my independent opinion is that no one needs any authority except themselves and their own direct experience.
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 3, 2011 12:55:16 GMT -6
You're both right, in my estimation.
I am an authority, especially when it comes to our emerald religion, but at the same time every single human being is their own sovereign state(s).
Right now, that's what we are... a collection of disunited states. These states are like our multitude of 'I's. They squabble, ignore, and occasionally obstruct their fellow neighboring states. This Work teaches us to create a single and solidified nation. Such an endeavor might bring an individual's inner landscape to the brink of civil war... or beyond. Nevertheless, one nation is stronger than a collection of separate, divided states. Unity is power!
By His loathsome tentacles,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Ikaros on Feb 3, 2011 13:23:05 GMT -6
Brother hartnell and I had a good long chat last night. In his words, we learned to speak each others language. We actually ended up agreeing on a lot of things. Sometimes sitting down and talking things out is the best cure for misunderstandings. I know I learned a lesson.
Awake!
Ikaros
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Post by nyrlthtp on Feb 4, 2011 13:42:46 GMT -6
...I would like anyone else's opinion on this subject.... 'drugs' is a sociopolitical term. pharmaceuticals (medicines) can be helpful to people who need them. poisons (e.g. intoxicants) are seldom helpful in any quantity. edible substances (foods) are necessary and usually beneficial depending on one's constitution and what one is eating or drinking. psychoactive substances (refined, natural, from LSD to coffee or sugar) are almost always better engaged intermittently rather than routinely, and with deliberate reflection on effects both short-term and long-term, sounding reflections from those who care around one, etc.; grounding for the more powerful ones is essential, and without it one might easily become disoriented or confused. I would like to mention that whereas a physiological effect is engaged via ingestion or smoking or whatever modality of engagement from these substances, there is as much or more possibility of subjective effects for the susceptible or ungrounded for 'taking in food of the mind' and buying into wacky or conscripting cosmologies as one's operating paradigm. what one takes into one's consciousness and bases one's life upon has as much or even more of an ability to affect one's subjective condition. focussing on eating or drinking is distracting from the overall intentional composition of one's experience that is possible.
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Post by Erebos on Feb 5, 2011 21:24:24 GMT -6
Is there anyone else's opinion? We established that the drugs that I speak of are drugs that effect your mind to a large extent and can easily be abused. I would like to see if I can be convinced that they are useful but at the moment I do not think so.
Belief Is Reality!
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Post by xophier on Feb 5, 2011 22:47:49 GMT -6
I am someone who lives in chronic pain and has been addicted to the various drugs prescribed to me over the years but broke the cycle four years ago. I found that the mind is the strongest drug of them all, it can flood you with endorphines, cause hallucinations, blur the boarder of life and death, and everything in between. I've also gone through caffeine based gnosis which involved a lot of soda and fourteen shots of espresso over the course of two hours, smoked salvia during ritual, drank in excess as an offering to Hoodoo spirits and taken barbiturates to enhance astral travel.
All of these were not needed, but I felt each one a valuable experience. You'll never know something without trying.
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Post by Erebos on Feb 5, 2011 23:16:04 GMT -6
"I found that the mind is the strongest drug of them all"
That is my exact thought right there. Anything that you need is right there and can be done with your mind. I believe drugs cloud the effects of what your mind can truly do, the more you use the drugs the harder it will be to awaken your mind to create all desired effects you may ever want. Drugs may be a similar effecting substitute but will benefit you only slightly in the future. To reverse your statement slightly, you'll never know something without trying.
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Post by Erebos on Feb 7, 2011 16:00:04 GMT -6
It shouldn't be surprising that drugs should arouse such diverse opinions. I feel that we are using the blanket term drugs a little too broadly. Let's make some distinctions. Firstly, lets place legal drugs in their own category. I don't think anyone would argue that if you have a headache you shouldn't take aspirin. However, pharmaceuticals can be misused. The chief example is opiates. Included in this category is a whole slew of psycho-active medications that change brain chemistry, like Xanax, Ambien, Ritalin, and Klonopin, just to name a few. I am interested to hear about what value people place on this kind of substance. The next category of drugs is industrially processed illegal drugs. Heroine (another opiate), meth, and cocaine are just a few examples of this. Note, I have separated cocaine from the actual coca plant. From my personal experience, these do exactly what Brother Erebos said: A final category of drugs are those naturally occurring plant materials that are probably the most widely used. Mainly, I speak of marijuana, as it has gained a strong prominence in Western culture. Honestly, I find the effects to be similar to alcohol (which I haven't categorized yet). If either of these form an addiction, which they are prone to do, then they should be avoided. As for myself, pot has never been one of my favorite things. I indulge in alcohol, but when I do lose control of my usage I then make it a point to abstain for a month in order to break that connection. Also in this category are herbs that are a little more rare, but when used with respect and in a sacred context can yield surprising results. From my personal experience, mushrooms, salvia divinorum, and artemisia vulgaris (but not absinthium) all have the potential to open up my mind, assist in lucid dreaming, and get outside of the moment. However, the key is self control. I don't use these substances more than once a month. Specifically because of their potency, I only use shrooms once a year, usually around Halloween. In conclusion, I would say that self-determination is the greatest rule when it comes to any mind-altering substance. If any of these substances is used to avoid the task of Awakening then they should be avoided. Know your body. Know your mind. Know yourself. Awake! Ikaros I'm keeping this short as this already explains most of it but a little bit of my opinion I would like to share. First of all I find aspirins, pop with some caffeine, and things like that ok to use as I said on here. Then another thing I want to include would be energy drinks. It may not sound bad but thats exactly why it can be bad to many. To much sugar and caffeine will cause you harm for example a kid who drank two Monsters in a day actually went into a three day coma because of this. This drinks are easily abused (similar to alcohol) because people don't see to much harm in them with their legality. Sure their effects are a lot less worse than alcohol but people become almost dependent on caffeine and energy drinks in the morning or during the day. A drink of a pop or coffee is fine as long as you realize what you are doing and its under control. However, there are those who drink energy drinks without thinking of the harm they can actually do if abused even slightly. I don't mean to sound like one that has a problem with every little thing but its just something one should look out for. Then the illegal drugs which I find useless. The manufactured ones in no way are good though the natural ones may be a little better. I still don't agree with them but using them religiously is better than using them just to get high with no purpose, I will admit that much. On a very slightly different note, I made an interesting observation to day. As you may have read in the thread of Advanced Awakening I tried some of the methods there to help focus my mind more and to gain some energy, which it helped quite a bit giving me a feeling of being awakened and making me productive. However, today after about a week of that feeling I felt pretty bad (this could be because I drank caffeine on the weekend and suffered a slight withdraw) though I was still in a half state of great feeling. Later I drank a Dr. Pepper which restored me to my thinking of the earlier week, of course this was probably caused by me equalizing the caffeine after the withdraw. On to my main point, what this means is that one can create the mental effect of caffeine without caffeine. This effect made by the mind was only a mild one keep in mind because I just started developing this mental power. So in theory this would be the same for most drugs used by some of the cult. If you make your mind strong enough you will no longer have the need for drugs to create the same effect. The main purpose of this is the alternative to the body damaging drugs because as far as I know creating a stronger mind does not harm your body like many of these drugs. Belief Is Reality!
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Post by Erebos on Feb 19, 2011 17:11:15 GMT -6
Well to continue even farther I made another observation/experience. Thanks to a mishap with Niquil I experienced some kind of drug induced euphoria. I am not sure if this felt like any other drug taken though if it is I believe it would be mild compared to anything else. I must say that this has refined my opinion a little more now.
To start off my other testimony I will describe the effects I felt and am still feeling slightly. I felt drowsy (which of course was the Niquil) but then I kind of lost a little control of how I moved. I would brush against stuff and stumble sometimes which made be a little suspicious. I went then to play video games because that is normally what I do when I am sick and the feelings were truly weird. When I tries doing things it was hard to focus and other times things happened in a literal blur. Then during that I felt almost confused but also I could tell what was happening which made me feel more confusing. I also felt like I was vulnerable and couldn't completely control my body.
This experience I must say was awful! It felt like someone was forcing happiness down my thought because I could definitely feel the euphoria like described by drug users I know. Now even as I type this I'm having slight problems of focusing and its somewhat difficult to type since my muscles aren't moving right yet.
If this is anything like the effects of other drugs my stance against them has increased 100 fold! I felt weak though I also felt a bit of a different thinking which is probably what traps people. I can still feel it a little bit, a almost artificial happiness and focus. The thing is, though, I felt weak. My senses were going haywire and I could not think right. This is no path towards Awakening... It is a trap, a vile waste of time and I believe if you do use drugs to try, you will only fail. A different presence takes over, not a good one that helps you but one that crushes you, stay away from these. I will end this saying I do not care if you take away karma because you do drugs and you believe they help, but I know they don't and as long as you continue this path you will fail.
I am going to point out again that I'm not completely sure if this is what other drugs do, but from my observations of today and from other people I think this is at least near, and all of tis written is based off the effects of some accident with Niquil. I would like to hear if this is what other drugs feel like from any of you reading this and know, but in conclusion I believe I ruled Niquil out for achieving Awakening.
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Post by darkprism on Feb 19, 2011 17:47:28 GMT -6
Hi Erebos,
Yeah, Nyquil contains the antihistamine Doxylamine Succinate. This is one of the most effective antihistamines on the market and actually rivals prescription hypnotics for it's sedative effects.
From my own experience it isn't really a great recreational drug. It's good if you want to sleep but the lack of limb control induced by it and general muscle weakness isn't that desirable, IMO. It certainly does have that artificial drowsy feeling that lingers on for hours and even drags on into the next day. In smaller doses it can be used for it's antihistamine effects with a small amount of drowsiness but a larger dose will just kick you in the ass and isn't that enjoyable. Probably why you can still get it over the counter is because of it's low potential for abuse.
Awake!
Dark Prism
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Post by Erebos on Feb 19, 2011 18:15:25 GMT -6
I see, that does make sense. Though I don't entirely take back what I said because the parts in it where I felt good and I think high were still irritating to me. The only difference is that other drugs may not be as miserable but that artificial euphoria still does sound and felt absolutely terrible. I'm won't base my entire thoughts after that one instance but I know drugs will not help...
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Post by darkprism on Feb 19, 2011 20:22:28 GMT -6
I see, that does make sense. Though I don't entirely take back what I said because the parts in it where I felt good and I think high were still irritating to me. The only difference is that other drugs may not be as miserable but that artificial euphoria still does sound and felt absolutely terrible. I'm won't base my entire thoughts after that one instance but I know drugs will not help... Yeah, of course. What you said is pretty much on the money anyway in regards to drugs. There is usually a price to pay for getting high and a person has to weigh up if it's really worth it. Sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's not and only the individual can judge that for themselves. There is no joy in addiction, that's for sure. It will only hold you back. There are way more pleasurable effects from other drugs out there but most of them have there downsides and comedowns. From my perspective, moderation or indulgence not compulsion is the key. However, with drugs, this rule can be very difficult to maintain. As far as Awakening with them, it is only temporary. Nothing replaces real effort. Awake! Dark Prism
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Post by symbolicone on Feb 20, 2011 2:16:13 GMT -6
From my perspective, moderation or indulgence not compulsion is the key. However, with drugs, this rule can be very difficult to maintain. As far as Awakening with them, it is only temporary. Nothing replaces real effort. Awake! Dark Prism The first two lines here are correct. However, the last part doesn't even make sense to me. This is what I think: One cannot Awaken through any single effort. Taking drugs (much like everything in life) is what you make of it. There are many, MANY misconceptions about drugs. It CAN be hard to control any and all aspects of drug use. Being addicted to ANYTHING is a bad thing. Efforts can be made whilst on drugs, thus, Awakening can be achieved whilst on drugs. I personally don't specifically advocate use of any illicit drugs besides marijuana, as it has more significance than any others. Practicing the use of marijuana can lead to many benefits in life, and for me, most of it isn't about having fun. It's about using what you have been given and making something productive come from it. Many people here have very closed minds when it comes to drugs. This is probably due to a lack of knowledge when it comes to drugs and using them correctly. Make no mistake. I have made more efforts since starting marijuana (about 5 months ago) then I did before, I have also read more and learned much. I have been self-aware for the majority of this time (except when doing it for fun, which is less often) and have only noticed minor disadvantages. One of which is the basic monetary cost of marijuana. Ultimately it's all about discipline. There are few greater feats than overcoming an addiction (even before it begins). I'm not talking about quitting either, that's just turning your back on the problem. You are still an addict. To truly overcome an addiction, you must control it. You must be able to use drugs (or whatever you were addicted to) in a productive way and not let it cloud your vision of yourself. This is not impossible, it just requires a lot of work, and most don't put in the effort. If you put in more effort, than you won't get addicted in the first place. I've never been addicted to drugs, but I've been addicted to both food and sex. Both of which I have since overcome, and I am a better person because of it. Also, I am currently working on a book about my thoughts on marijuana in the Left Hand Path. It should clear up most misconceptions as well as giving guidelines to both the usage and control of marijuana. I'll let everyone know when it's done. Awake!
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