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Post by sin on Oct 20, 2008 11:57:16 GMT -6
In your own opinion, what is the ultimate goal of the CoC?
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Oct 20, 2008 20:20:29 GMT -6
If I had to pick one goal, above all of them i would say...
Hmmmm Awakening is tempting to choose, but i feel like it needs something more. For now i will go with awakening. Because without it we are very similar to alot of other magical groups, but our unique, and apparently unacceptable view on this reality. Is what makes us special, and is certainly one of our biggest goals. Realization to this reality, is just like the our bread and butter for magic, whatever system you use its seem irrelevant to the fact that it works when the magician know him/ her self.
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Post by sin on Oct 21, 2008 12:05:40 GMT -6
Awakening is a common theme, given the Cthulhu mythos, but what makes the COC so special, and unique in that regard? There are many groups whose aim is to awaken this generation from it's slumber, especially after the Matrix films.
So you are in the hot spot, and some big journalist is drilling you. How would you respond?
1. What is the ultimate goal of the COC? 2. What makes the COC unique? 3. What contributions does the COC make in human development? 4. Is a 'cult', and 'cult theologies' essential in seeing its goal manifest? 5. In what regard is Venger Satanist, a 'cult' leader? 6. In what regard are you a follower? You are a follower aren't you? Isn't that what cult leaders do? Lead followers?
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 21, 2008 13:55:43 GMT -6
really glad you posted that, Cora'Sahn. it's important to have a snapshot or nutshell answer all ready for people when they ask. and eventually people will be asking you these questions. preparedness is key!
i'll wait before posting my own answers. i'd like to eventually see a reply from just about everyone on this forum.
VS
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Oct 21, 2008 17:59:56 GMT -6
1. What is the ultimate goal of the COC? 2. What makes the COC unique? 3. What contributions does the COC make in human development? 4. Is a 'cult', and 'cult theologies' essential in seeing its goal manifest? 5. In what regard is Venger Satanist, a 'cult' leader? 6. In what regard are you a follower? You are a follower aren't you? Isn't that what cult leaders do? Lead followers? 1. to free humanity from this prison, and become demi-gods. 2. our openness,and an unmatched combination of various teachings into something very unique 3. gives any person a chance to free of the daily routine of sleep, and awaken, eventually leading onto higher planes. If the cult ran politically, it would likely be a tough brutal government, one of power and productivity. 4.(ill get back to you on this one,i want to meditate on it for a while) 5. He teaches, he provides direction, and at the moment handles most aspects of the coc. 6. I learn whatever there's to learn. If i have a question, i can bring it to VS and have it answered precisely and with enthusiasm to help. I do what i am asked, and try and help as much as i can.
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 21, 2008 18:31:07 GMT -6
Awakening is a common theme, given the Cthulhu mythos, but what makes the COC so special, and unique in that regard? There are many groups whose aim is to awaken this generation from it's slumber, especially after the Matrix films. So you are in the hot spot, and some big journalist is drilling you. How would you respond? 1. What is the ultimate goal of the COC? 2. What makes the COC unique? 3. What contributions does the COC make in human development? 4. Is a 'cult', and 'cult theologies' essential in seeing its goal manifest? 5. In what regard is Venger Satanist, a 'cult' leader? 6. In what regard are you a follower? You are a follower aren't you? Isn't that what cult leaders do? Lead followers? 1. to maintain a legitimate LHP bent on developing our will, our power, and our selves... holding to these ideals, not losing sight or focus like groups such as the CoS 2. our particular blend of different teachings, with an emphasis on the 4th way and utilizing the Lovecraft Mythos, as well as the open and very democratic nature of inner communication 3. by "human development", i take you to mean the individual and not society/culture, because i feel we havent nearly got to that point yet. i think the CoC helps the individual to Awaken and be mindful of this moment and this world and this body, to stir the wells of unused power deep within our minds, to tap that potential and apply willed change (magick) to our lives and accomplish our goals, individual and group alike 4. for the next few questions i obtained this definition of the word "cult", because i feel its important to analyze it: cult /kʌlt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhlt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies. 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. 3. the object of such devotion. 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. 5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols. 6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader. 7. the members of such a religion or sect. 8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific. –adjective 9. of or pertaining to a cult. 10. of, for, or attracting a small group of devotees: a cult movie. now, a lot of those apply to virtually every religion. the only ones with any really negative connotation are 6 and 8. and even then according to "society", yes, we would fall under 6. they would consider us "false" and "extremist", we ARE quite unorthodox, because "orthodox" in this sense is just another word for "tame", "known", "safe"... you see my point? so i would say that no, being a "cult" and having "cult theologies" are not ESSENTIAL to our goal, but it is BENEFICIAL to it, as by virtue of being this tightly-knit group with this common goal, we have more and better communication with eachother, and discourse=knowledge does it not? 5. again refer to the definition of the word.... he is our leader in that he started our group. he is my leader in that he knows more than i do, and is in a POSITION to lead me, and all of us. i look to him for help, for guidance, and he always supplies the answers i need. he is not my god. he is my teacher. do not teachers lead their classrooms? 6. again see above. "follower" can and might be better substituted for "student" here. see the power of words? just by calling something a different thing it becomes that thing. all these words like "cult" and "leader" and "follower" are words that carry sinister meaning in this context, according to "society", and we can really look more closely at these words and find more appropriate substitutes and then the nature of the thing becomes a lot easier to understand and swallow to the "outside" perspective. we should really think about this when out in the world. i have no problem with those words, but "people" do. maybe a more delicate touch will be require in the future? at least, for a while....
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Madguten
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Post by Madguten on Oct 22, 2008 9:41:47 GMT -6
To walk the path until Cthulhu wakes.
Cthulhu. Aside from that, the cult allows and encourages individual freedom of its members.
We are the darkness we wish to see in the world
I am not sure i understand this question. Little is truly necessary.
In the sense that he is the top dog of the pack. It is not all fun and roses to manage such a task, but he has taken it upon himself to create all that he has made so far.
I can say that i have followed his initiative to gain inner freedom through self observance but this question is like swimming in quicksand, lol
This is Vengers house, we play under his rules. I do not follow Venger just to follow someone. I used the forum here a full year before i even joined the organization. But in that time, Venger has proved himself more than worthy of the title he holds.
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 22, 2008 11:27:58 GMT -6
fascinating thus far...
the only thing i would say at this point, as i'm still waiting for a dozen more posts full of individual answers, is this... the Cult of Cthulhu is the first and only Left Hand Path 4th way school that i'm aware of.
ok, keep those answers coming. and if those who have already posted think of new or better answers, feel free to make a later post in this soon-to-be gigantic thread.
VS
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Post by sin on Oct 22, 2008 11:39:18 GMT -6
Hold off as long as you can. I think the member responses will be quite enlightening, it will give you a glimpse of how each member sees it's mission, and it's personal meaning to each member. Not to mention, it will aid you in forming clear answers to communicate to the public, as well as the cult itself. I'm going to hold off as well, I'm in observation mode.
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 22, 2008 15:55:34 GMT -6
fascinating thus far...
the only thing i would say at this point, as i'm still waiting for a dozen more posts full of individual answers, is this... the Cult of Cthulhu is the first and only Left Hand Path 4th way school that i'm aware of.
ok, keep those answers coming. and if those who have already posted think of new or better answers, feel free to make a later post in this soon-to-be gigantic thread.
VS i thought the Temple Of Set embraces 4th Way as well? i was looking at their site the other day and could have sworn i saw something on there about the 4th Way... weren't you a member, HP? is this true? whats with them, btw, and why did you leave? if you dont mind me asking. at a glance our practices and theirs seem very similar. EDIT: to everyone, dont let me change the subject please. keep on with Cora'Sahns intent for this thread. after HP responds to me ill pm him if i have more questions on this. i dont want this thread to get off-topic. noooo fucking way. thank you!!!
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 22, 2008 16:32:56 GMT -6
that's a good point...
if the Temple of Set were a 4th way school, then they would be first and the CoC second. while many ToS members do study and practice the 4th way teaching, i don't know if you can call them a 4th way school.
while one of the most important "power words" of the Cult is Awakening, their power words are Xeper, Remanifest, etc. it all felt a bit too new age and going around in semantic circles to me. be all that you can be so that your being is more fully understood... stuff like that.
yes, i was a member before the internet took off, around 1997. i never found anyone to grow with/around/through via snail mail. this person is also supposed to be your sponsor who mentors you to the next initiatory degree. upon first entering, a ToS member is in a probationary period. also, a decade ago the fee was something like $65 a year, every year that you were an active member of the ToS. i'm not sure what it is now, maybe $100 a year?
what i read in the Crystal Tablet of Set, opened my eyes... there were members interested in Satanism, Lovecraft, the 4th way; however, little real world action was taken. and the ToS almost never works with "outsiders", people who aren't members. i hear very little about them these days. not sure what they're up to.
so, while the Temple of Set sees the value of the 4th way and keeps 4th way books on their reading list, i wouldn't call them a 4th way school. others may disagree; although the ToS is definitely Left Hand Path.
hope that clears that up.
VS
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Post by sin on Oct 24, 2008 7:09:56 GMT -6
I was also a member of the TOS, for a short while. It took nearly 8 months of interviews and essays to get in. Once I was in, I raped their library. I never read anything that I would call Fourth Way, in their texts. To be honest, I found most of it to be 'out there'.
I was eventually booted, because of my association with the COS. The whole thing was quite stupid and theatrical. I was accused of being a COS spy. Pfffft.
One of the Priests discovered my yahoo 360 page, on it I shared websites with people interested in Satanism/LHP. The only place you can list sites, is in the Jobs section. I had the TOS site listed, and under job I had Adversary. The Priest mis-read it, to say 'Aministration' and this prompted a mini-novel email to me about misrepresenting my position in the TOS. The guy just could not concede, and admit he had made an error.
I basically made a fool out of him, and they needed a 'reason' to expell me from the organization. They asked me about the status of my COS membership, at which point I told them current, and 'registered' not 'active'. I knew where they were going with it, it was inevitable. I got my explusion letter. I thought the whole thing was pretty funny. Especially the threats I got about the boogey men in the Abyss coming to get me. I told them to BRING IT. Nothing ever came...
It took them several months to actually revoke my access to the website, so I kept trolling around. A year later, I got my 'Welcome Package', which I thought was really funny. I guess somewhere in admin, they missed the memo. The only thing I paid was an $89 membership fee, so I guess they had to send me 'something' for my money. I got the cd's, white medallion, and it carried a warning about mis-use.
*lol*
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 24, 2008 10:31:17 GMT -6
wow, that's an eye-opener. when 'I's don't observe, it's like absent-tee management. put that model to a religion or secular organization, and the problems are obvious. the wrong 'I's try doing the work of the correct 'I's which are asleep. in other words, where the hell was Michael Aquino?
something to be said for hands-on management, like the CoC.
VS
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Post by sin on Oct 24, 2008 12:43:42 GMT -6
wow, that's an eye-opener. when 'I's don't observe, it's like absent-tee management. put that model to a religion or secular organization, and the problems are obvious. the wrong 'I's try doing the work of the correct 'I's which are asleep. in other words, where the hell was Michael Aquino?
something to be said for hands-on management, like the CoC.
VS
To my knowledge, I believe he just 'advises' but is not heavily involved in the day-to-day operations. I saved all the correspondence back and fourth, its in a binder on my bookshelf. It was too funny not to keep, for 'reference'. I often get requests from people who want referrals, or info on the TOS. *lol* It's useful.
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 24, 2008 15:33:24 GMT -6
wow.... sounds an awful lot like ultra-paranoid scientology-level shit to me. i know about that my rehab i went to years ago was dianetics-based.
id be curious to see all those correspondences, Cora'Sahn... sounds hilarious!!!
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Post by sin on Oct 27, 2008 8:03:02 GMT -6
wow.... sounds an awful lot like ultra-paranoid scientology-level shit to me. i know about that my rehab i went to years ago was dianetics-based. id be curious to see all those correspondences, Cora'Sahn... sounds hilarious!!! I'll include it in my book :-) You can read it in my memoirs :-P
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Post by miguelantonio on Oct 27, 2008 11:46:11 GMT -6
I think the goal of the CoC should be the goal of any LHP organization, mainly teaching this world has a dark side to it and that we can use it to our advantage.
First subgoal should be to teach people about the ugly truth nobody wants to see, in other words that this world is suffering, that there is injustice in our world and that we have selfish drives. Second subgoal, that not everything that seems evil or bad should be eliminated or sublimated but used to further both the individual and humanity as a whole.
I think the CoC is incomplete as a LHP group is in the illusion of being separate and self-suficient and makes the same mistake of RHP groups. I think RHP/LHP is the ideal, so the CoC should be a subset of a larger light/dark religion, like the ancient Egyptian religion that had a temple for Osiris (light) and Set (darkness).
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Post by sin on Oct 27, 2008 12:52:19 GMT -6
I think the goal of the CoC should be the goal of any LHP organization, mainly teaching this world has a dark side to it and that we can use it to our advantage. First subgoal should be to teach people about the ugly truth nobody wants to see, in other words that this world is suffering, that there is injustice in our world and that we have selfish drives. Second subgoal, that not everything that seems evil or bad should be eliminated or sublimated but used to further both the individual and humanity as a whole. I think the CoC is incomplete as a LHP group is in the illusion of being separate and self-suficient and makes the same mistake of RHP groups. I think RHP/LHP is the ideal, so the CoC should be a subset of a larger light/dark religion, like the ancient Egyptian religion that had a temple for Osiris (light) and Set (darkness). Dark and Light, are highly subjective and as a LHP'r I completely reject duality and 'balance' these things are nothing but delusions to me. If this organization starts spewing that nonsense, I'm outta here!
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 27, 2008 13:29:24 GMT -6
you have a skewed understanding of the right and Left Hand Path, brother. the LHP is nor merely dark or evil, just as the rhp is not merely light or good. they actually have very different meanings.
this website has good info on the LHP:www.dpjs.co.uk/lefthandpath.html meanwhile, i'll look for more links and paste them onto another post. the distinction between right and Left is huge; there are many people knowledgeable, more or less, in occult matters who don't have a clue. the CoC is LHP for good reason.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by miguelantonio on Oct 27, 2008 15:25:10 GMT -6
so i have a skewed understanding of the LHP?.
i think that talking about christianity to a satanist is as stupid as talking about satanism to a christian. That is the limitation of both belief systems. I don't see how my knowledge is skewed.
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 27, 2008 15:55:33 GMT -6
ok, let me break it down for you.
the right hand path is about sublimation, that is merging the self into the universe. the Left Hand Path is about making the universe submissive to the dominant self.
the rhp forces one to give up the ego, personal desires, and individual essence in favor of becoming subservient to universal forces... the lesser gods of the earth. the LHP opposes the universe so the liberated individual can become like the Gods.
it's different than the straightforward argument of christianity versus Satanism; however, christianity is inherently rhp and Satanism is inherently LHP. if you want to sacrifice your True Self to external forces, then so be it. good luck with the right hand path. if you want to the power to go beyond, rising above any kind of demiurge or slave god(s), then join us in the LHP camp.
if you have further questions after reading the information on that link contained in my previous post, then ask it.
VS
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Post by miguelantonio on Oct 27, 2008 20:16:31 GMT -6
i agree I was a little confused when I suggested turning the CoC into a subset of a RHP/LHP religion, as it could spoil this nice organization, and turn it into a dumbed one LHP.
However I still think it would be a good idea that someone created a religion that had a temple of light and a temple for darkness, with followers in both ones, and with free liberty to change temples or even to serve at both. Sounds interesting, don't you think?. Never say anything is impossible, as it probably was done before.
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Madguten
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Post by Madguten on Oct 28, 2008 5:22:35 GMT -6
From one view, i think that i understand (and agree) with what you are saying here. I feel that i recignize the realization. There are no set rules in the sense of "evil" and "good", we make those ourselves according to how we perceive and react to our surroundings/the image of nature and the universe. But in regards to completely throwing away the elements of balance and duality, i do not agree. Or rather i cannot agree, not yet at least. I see balance and duality as naturally existing phenomenas, regardless and untouched by humanity. They are laws like gravity and the other natural laws. Some are physical, many are metaphysical. Balance is both (in my opinion). My existence has, is and will be highly based on it. As high the peaks, as low the valleys, as above so below. This is an undeniable rule in existence as i know it. I observe it EVERYWHERE, the struggle betwinx the elements. I lately read by coincident that this (the balance and duality) is a common trade for a Gemini, but i choose to take such things with a giggle. But we can still discuss it for the sake of exploration, right I get the most from discussing things with people who dont agree with me in the particular subject. Of course i am still a fundamentalist in theory, so i will never believe that i am anything but the ultimate truth but thankfully i balance it off in practice. ;D
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Post by sin on Oct 28, 2008 8:22:17 GMT -6
i agree I was a little confused when I suggested turning the CoC into a subset of a RHP/LHP religion, as it could spoil this nice organization, and turn it into a dumbed one LHP. However I still think it would be a good idea that someone created a religion that had a temple of light and a temple for darkness, with followers in both ones, and with free liberty to change temples or even to serve at both. Sounds interesting, don't you think?. Never say anything is impossible, as it probably was done before. Have you touched on the Allee's Left & Right of Center, called 'ASTra (Allee Shadow Tradition), it mirrors 'walking the line' between light and dark thought processes, finding balance within. alleeshadowtradition.com/
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Post by miguelantonio on Oct 28, 2008 11:22:48 GMT -6
Yes, it is interesting.
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Post by sin on Oct 28, 2008 12:33:36 GMT -6
But we can still discuss it for the sake of exploration, right I get the most from discussing things with people who dont agree with me in the particular subject. Of course i am still a fundamentalist in theory, so i will never believe that i am anything but the ultimate truth but thankfully i balance it off in practice. ;D True, much like skeptical inquiry. You might actually prove a thing, by trying to disprove a thing.
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Post by Madguten on Oct 28, 2008 17:01:21 GMT -6
Thanks for posting the Allee link btw. I had been wondering what Dee was doing for some time now but somehow i have just never gotten around to checking it out. The FCoS was among the first sites i visited a few times when i first got the internet. The first site url i typed in was church of satan. The internet seemed smaller to me back then, and the organizations seemed bigger. Its all in my perception of course. The Dee site has a pretty neat library. Edit: Yeah, i think the chances of gaining knowledge are good in such situations. Not so much because of the actual fire of a discussion but because of the light it sheds. When you are discussing with people who you agree fully with, then its hard to get a fire going because there isnt enough friction. ;D Jeez, there i go with another tame fire metaphor, ;D meta, meta, meta ;D
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 28, 2008 21:58:14 GMT -6
i agree I was a little confused when I suggested turning the CoC into a subset of a RHP/LHP religion, as it could spoil this nice organization, and turn it into a dumbed one LHP. However I still think it would be a good idea that someone created a religion that had a temple of light and a temple for darkness, with followers in both ones, and with free liberty to change temples or even to serve at both. Sounds interesting, don't you think?. Never say anything is impossible, as it probably was done before. that sounds, no offense, dumb to me. i dont get it. you have your doctrine, your set of beliefs, and two sects within the one church interpret it differently with a different practice and different sub-beliefs but decide to call them selves the same fatih and somehow have the same goals? to use an analogy that is overdone but im going to do it here anyway because it illustrates my point so well, thats like christians and satanists (i mean biblical satanists here, real demon-worshippers, because its the opposite of the christian belief, not atheistic lavey "satanism") worshipping in two wings of the same cathedral, and hey... maybe some sundays someone feels like a change of pace and wants to have an orgy at the black mass instead of kneel and take communion. i hope you meant something entirely different bro, and if so please clarify, because i truly am curious as to how this would be done... not because i think it sounds interesting, but because it sounds nonsensical and i just want to know how you would do this and have it actually work. thanks, man. enlighten me.
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Post by sin on Oct 29, 2008 6:16:12 GMT -6
Thanks for posting the Allee link btw. I had been wondering what Dee was doing for some time now but somehow i have just never gotten around to checking it out. The FCoS was among the first sites i visited a few times when i first got the internet. The first site url i typed in was church of satan. The internet seemed smaller to me back then, and the organizations seemed bigger. Its all in my perception of course. The Dee site has a pretty neat library. Edit: Yeah, i think the chances of gaining knowledge are good in such situations. Not so much because of the actual fire of a discussion but because of the light it sheds. When you are discussing with people who you agree fully with, then its hard to get a fire going because there isnt enough friction. ;D Jeez, there i go with another tame fire metaphor, ;D meta, meta, meta ;D *lol* No problem. I bought the book when it first came out, not really my cup of tea but the Allee's do provide an interesting perspective on specific aspects of human behavior. The Allee's are cool people anyway, I just think they get a bad wrap in all the internet propaganda. I've spoken to both of them via telephone, very pleasant folks. Both are on Paganspace and join in some of the discussions at times. That place is a free-for-all, if you want a little friction :-) Go forth, and meta!
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Post by Madguten on Oct 29, 2008 7:07:28 GMT -6
Yeah, you're right.
PaganSpace does actually have a great traffic with many different types of people there. Much friction should be possible over there, too much perhaps, lol
I heard about the anti Allee propaganda a year ago or something on their radio show. I was also under the impression that they have gotten a bad wrap, as satanist usually do.
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