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Post by A:.O:. on Jul 8, 2010 17:57:54 GMT -6
If the reality that we know doesn't really exist, then why participate in it?
This is not a contentious question but hopefully the start of a debate.
I've always felt that someone/thing was pulling the wool over my eyes and that everything I thought was real was just a clever plot to keep my in line. Accepting this, why should I play along? Why should I keep working and paying my bills? Shouldn't I be disconnecting and working towards breaking free from the illusion?
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 8, 2010 18:14:25 GMT -6
Wow, you already got the balling. I love it!
You'll probably receive several answers, each slightly different, aspects of which may even seem contrary... at first. That's what comes of discussing the unknowable.
We participate in the illusion because, at the moment, it's all we got. Another analogy which I like to use is that we are imprisoned, at least starting out. You make things work for you while in prison cause that's just where you begin. Just like if you were playing D&D - you start at level 1. It might suck, but what choice do you really have?
Nevertheless, you can struggle against the illusion. With enough time and effort, you will become more free and more conscious. To put it another way, keep paying your bills but don't forget to dream about those slimy things in the darkness!
A'ahjhan ot ahraev ashith... vib oola zuun rivdgian.
Venger As'Nas Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by A:.O:. on Jul 8, 2010 21:06:58 GMT -6
If we are stuck in the illusion and struggling to get out then why divide our attentions between participating and fighting the machine?
By participating I mean getting a job to pay for the cable television, gym membership, netflix membership, house in the suburbs, going camping/hiking/fishing/hunting, etc. ad nauseum.
Shouldn't we be dropping out of society and focusing our efforts towards true awakening? This reality is a dream, can't we become truly lucid and start manipulating our reality for the goal of escaping from it? Wouldn't a Cthulhu compound be more conducive to faciliting this awakening? Why should we stay within the societies that we live in?
Wow, that is a lot of questions - I wish I could answer some of them but I'm not yet done reading the Cthulhu Cult bible, and I'm only as educated on the Fourth Way as wikipedia has allowed me to be. I want to find answers to these questions and many more, I'm not willing to give up my netflix just yet though.
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Post by egodiabolus on Jul 8, 2010 21:50:41 GMT -6
If we are stuck in the illusion and struggling to get out then why divide our attentions between participating and fighting the machine? By participating I mean getting a job to pay for the cable television, gym membership, netflix membership, house in the suburbs, going camping/hiking/fishing/hunting, etc. ad nauseum. Shouldn't we be dropping out of society and focusing our efforts towards true awakening? This reality is a dream, can't we become truly lucid and start manipulating our reality for the goal of escaping from it? Wouldn't a Cthulhu compound be more conducive to faciliting this awakening? Why should we stay within the societies that we live in? Wow, that is a lot of questions - I wish I could answer some of them but I'm not yet done reading the Cthulhu Cult bible, and I'm only as educated on the Fourth Way as wikipedia has allowed me to be. I want to find answers to these questions and many more, I'm not willing to give up my netflix just yet though.
Awake!
Ego Diabolus
Priest of R'lyeh
Cult of Cthulhu |
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haruspex
Adeptus
i'm leaving scars so you can see!
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Post by haruspex on Jul 24, 2010 10:02:05 GMT -6
To not 'participate' is the apex of an enlightened, rebellious spirit. it essentially says, i didnt ask to play your stupid fuckin' game, so excuse me, im sitting this one out.
nevertheless, as the capitulated have brought to remebrance, we are here, so we must be assimilated (lev.1 reasoning) and assimilate.
Be ye deceived, there is a dichotomous reality, a force that is twain, the one narrow the the othere a yawning maw of conflagrating damnation imprecating its poison, injecting it as such to no other no will it haveth...it's work is your mind, its sustenance your thoughts.... its name is in the ghetto fabulous vernacular of ice cube, ''tap dancin' on dat ass.' in the whiney 'forced' action of ynh, 'the great whale.'
to the adept, 'the prima materia.'
to everyone else, 'is it friday yet?'
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Post by Sarak G'hash on Jul 24, 2010 10:59:12 GMT -6
To not 'participate' is the apex of an enlightened, rebellious spirit. it essentially says, i didnt ask to play your stupid fuckin' game, so excuse me, im sitting this one out.And this has been my total point of view for years!!!! It avoids arguments with petty people who live to argue. And, yes, that includes my husband..lol
Awake! |
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haruspex
Adeptus
i'm leaving scars so you can see!
Posts: 25
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Post by haruspex on Jul 24, 2010 16:21:25 GMT -6
roger that
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Post by boksmutant on Oct 26, 2010 3:23:51 GMT -6
I lived in a parking lot for 6 or 7 years once to avoid bills & the rat race. I suppose I learned a lot about myself. I had a lot of time to meditate & read which is cool. Also got a lot of writing done.
BUT, it became hard to avoid the lower strata of life:)
Crack heads & thieves surround you. People are constantly trying to "jack your shit". Drug dealers & cop cars a constant distraction. I was once awoken by a naked guy on PCP(or what ever) holding a lamp as a weapon being gunned down by fifteen police men with rubber bullets. It was actually pretty funny.
But unless you roamed the earth like Cane(which might be an even greater distraction) its just trading one set of problems for another. There are so many damn people on this planet you just cant get away from em.
At least having a job & maintaining an apartment allows you to get away from the world. During work I just day dream about all the crazy & fantastic shit I love. At home no TV. Thank god for that. But love the educational stuff like the history channel & some news just to keep up with the most current thing going on(BP oil spill). That kind a stuff.
But as for a COC temple where cultists could just escape the bullshit & meditate. Sounds cool, but Id only allow a stay of like a month or so. Just like the mormons got there temple & protestants got those huge christian conventions to sorta evade a sucky reality. Back in the day you had monasteries.
What one could do if there were alot of COC temples around the globe, is maybe jump from temple to temple staying for the allotted time & just live like that. That might work.
But COC members need to be in the field.
If we had that kinda resources, Id definitely do the traveling thing for at least a couple years.
Now you got me.
Cool thread A:.O:.
Awake!
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Post by ieuan on Oct 26, 2010 15:53:56 GMT -6
Like those questions AO asked, thanks for bringing this thread back up, Boksmutanis. I agree; on my journey of sleep, I just changed one set of problems for another, the grass always looked greener on the other side. I do believe that we are in a prison, a prison within a prison. When I look at all the technological improvements, just seems like more gadgets to keep us sleeping, and very soundly. Since globalization, seems as if the whole world is really worshiping the same "lessor god" of MONEY, with the so called elitist in love with the illusion of power. In the end we are all dead machines, food for the universe. I have yet to meet an ascended person from beyond the grave. Not sounding the alarms of negativism, but the illusion gives me the reason to work on self and verify, which is a very positive practice, keeping me centered, and gives me peace of mind.
The Great Work has just begun
Talek
Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods
Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Oct 26, 2010 22:00:23 GMT -6
When I look at all the technological improvements, just seems like more gadgets to keep us sleeping, and very soundly. Since globalization, seems as if the whole world is really worshiping the same "lessor god" of MONEY, with the so called elitist in love with the illusion of power. In the end we are all dead machines, food for the universe. I have yet to meet an ascended person from beyond the grave.
I would have to agree with you, Talek. The technological advancements that so many of us rush out to buy enable us to remain connected to the hype they feed us. Unfortunately, so many swallow willingly and without thought. We don't even have to rush home any longer to see what is happening for our smart phones keep us abreast of any and all changes in our reality that we want them to.
Why do we continue to perpetuate this?
I think it has something to do with judgment and how badly so many people want to fit in. "Without the IPhone, how am I going to know what is happening on Sally's trip to Cancun?" And knowing exactly what is happening on Sally's trip to Cancun is totally relevant to the conversations I'll have with Sally & I's friends throughout the day. Plus, I can monitor the weather in Cancun, the news in Cancun, and the latest fashion trends in Cancun giving me more nothingness to discuss so that I come across as important and informed.
And don't forget about following Lindsay Lohan's Rehab efforts. I mean, without that kind of news to discuss, where would we be as a society? And these are just some examples of the bites the minnows chomp on. The bigger fish are busy tracking trends of the minnows so that they can make sure to keep feeding the right bait.
Don't get me wrong; I love the internet. So much knowledge at my fingertips. But the rest, I have a hard time understanding. Why do we feel the need to validate our existence by watching the latest TV shows, listening to the latest mainstream top 40 hits, and downloading the most popular applications? Because without doing so, we'll be left out?
Scary...
When the stars are right!
Apsara Kamalli
Esoteric Wizard of the Terrible Darkness
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Post by egodiabolus on Oct 27, 2010 12:40:49 GMT -6
I would have to agree with you, Talek. The technological advancements that so many of us rush out to buy enable us to remain connected to the hype they feed us. Unfortunately, so many swallow willingly and without thought. We don't even have to rush home any longer to see what is happening for our smart phones keep us abreast of any and all changes in our reality that we want them to.
Why do we continue to perpetuate this?
I think it has something to do with judgment and how badly so many people want to fit in. "Without the IPhone, how am I going to know what is happening on Sally's trip to Cancun?" And knowing exactly what is happening on Sally's trip to Cancun is totally relevant to the conversations I'll have with Sally & I's friends throughout the day. Plus, I can monitor the weather in Cancun, the news in Cancun, and the latest fashion trends in Cancun giving me more nothingness to discuss so that I come across as important and informed.
And don't forget about following Lindsay Lohan's Rehab efforts. I mean, without that kind of news to discuss, where would we be as a society? And these are just some examples of the bites the minnows chomp on. The bigger fish are busy tracking trends of the minnows so that they can make sure to keep feeding the right bait.
Don't get me wrong; I love the Internet. So much knowledge at my fingertips. But the rest, I have a hard time understanding. Why do we feel the need to validate our existence by watching the latest TV shows, listening to the latest mainstream top 40 hits, and downloading the most popular applications? Because without doing so, we'll be left out?
Scary...
When the stars are right!
Apsara Kamalli
Esoteric Wizard of the Terrible Darkness
Cult of CthulhuWizard Apsara, all of what you said is true. News about Lohan and the various killers who get regular time on the news is there to keep our minds off the War, and it works for the ones that are asleep. MTV generation, everyone has ADD. No one can sit and listen to a whole CD with headphones anymore, its all on your Iphones. It is scary when technology takes over ones life. The worst of it is that it makes everyone lazy, well the sleepers that is. We won't let that happen to us. I tend to believe that the government traded technology knowledge with the aliens in Roswell crash for alien secrecy. If not then, then they did at another time. I could go on and on, but I do agree it is a scary time. At least we are not asleep. Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
Sarcasm is an art form in our home, so it is not a surprise when sometimes she and I speak publicly and others miss the subtle tones she and I use in out presentations.
Technology is a tool. It is our use of technology that can lead to problems, like our use of virtually anything else. Technology can lead to greater possibilities, new forms of art, new ways of thinking and living, or it can lead to apathy and complacency when we let devices do for us instead of doing for ourselves. In either case, the technology is neutral in the process... it is our decisions that determines whether technology is a benefit or a detriment to our Awakening.
I would be more concerned about using generalities in our language when speaking to one another than about the effects of technology. I am certain that I am as guilty of this as anyone else. "Everyone has ADD", "no one can sit and listen...", "makes everyone lazy"... these are the kinds of statements that encourage Sleep. Not everyone has ADD, some people do listen, and it does not make everyone lazy. We should strive to be as accurate an objective in our speaking as possible. It seems like a small thing, but our assumptive nature is in opposition to our Awakening. Of course you didn't mean everyone, but saying what we do not mean is a mechanical behavior. These are the kinds of "lies" that Gurdjieff suggests we avoid.
I would recommend, as you continue your pursuit of greater Awareness, narrowing your scope at first to the relatively close things, like language and choice of words as you observe yourself. Then, as you develop an objective sense of self, expand your objective perception to greater issues, such as the Secret Masters gaining technology from alien sources, should your developing objectivity lead you to that conclusion.
Awake!
Ego Diabolus
Priest of R'lyeh
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Post by tentaclednephilim on Oct 27, 2010 13:38:22 GMT -6
Here's my take on the whole 'to participate or not' debate. You'll likely hear me echo some of the things others have said.
This is indeed all we have at the moment. Whether you want to participate or not, you are participating. You have to ask yourself to what extent you are participating and why.
I like to think of our shared reality not necessarily as a prison, but more like a complex computer program. Sure, it may be a prison, but do you have to let it imprison you?
The way I approach it is I look at the parameters of the 'program'. I look for ways in which I can work around those parameters. I'm not saying I try to break the laws of physics, but if you look at technology you will see that it finds its way around them by utilizing them.
Science can let us see the parameters. Technology is the tool for exploitation. Philosophy is the user's manual.
I think we can break out of our 'prison' by learning the rules and exploiting them. Since we are here, this is where we have to start.
Make reality your gimp bitch.
Does any of that makes sense?
ia ia Cthulhu fhatgn!
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Post by egodiabolus on Oct 27, 2010 20:32:07 GMT -6
I think Wizard of Terrible Darkness Apsara Kamalli was using "scary" in a more sarcastic manner and a less literal one than you interpreted it, Alba Kalool, suggesting that some people foolishly find it frightening not to be "connected" through some device at all times, chasing that which is irrelevant. They will be "left out" of all the petty distractions our society foists upon its sleeping populace when they should be tuned-in to the immediate experiences of their own lives.
Sarcasm is an art form in our home, so it is not a surprise when sometimes she and I speak publicly and others miss the subtle tones she and I use in out presentations.
Technology is a tool. It is our use of technology that can lead to problems, like our use of virtually anything else. Technology can lead to greater possibilities, new forms of art, new ways of thinking and living, or it can lead to apathy and complacency when we let devices do for us instead of doing for ourselves. In either case, the technology is neutral in the process... it is our decisions that determines whether technology is a benefit or a detriment to our Awakening.
I would be more concerned about using generalities in our language when speaking to one another than about the effects of technology. I am certain that I am as guilty of this as anyone else. "Everyone has ADD", "no one can sit and listen...", "makes everyone lazy"... these are the kinds of statements that encourage Sleep. Not everyone has ADD, some people do listen, and it does not make everyone lazy. We should strive to be as accurate an objective in our speaking as possible. It seems like a small thing, but our assumptive nature is in opposition to our Awakening. Of course you didn't mean everyone, but saying what we do not mean is a mechanical behavior. These are the kinds of "lies" that Gurdjieff suggests we avoid.
I would recommend, as you continue your pursuit of greater Awareness, narrowing your scope at first to the relatively close things, like language and choice of words as you observe yourself. Then, as you develop an objective sense of self, expand your objective perception to greater issues, such as the Secret Masters gaining technology from alien sources, should your developing objectivity lead you to that conclusion.
Awake!
Ego Diabolus
Priest of R'lyeh
Cult of Cthulhu Yes Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh, I too was using sarcasm . As I stated when I used the ADD statement along with the other statements. When I stated :everyone, that was also sarcasm. Seems you too missed the sarcasm, easily done sometimes. To assume that my words encourage sleep, when assumptive nature is in opposition of Awaking , would that suggest that you thru assuming were caught sleeping? Perhaps. Glad to see that my post was used as intended. Thanks for your opinion. Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
Reality is largely perception, however skewed it may be.
I would like to inquire as to what you believe I was assuming? I stated that generalizing statements... those dealing in absolutes (everyone, no one, etc) are statements which inhibit our wakefulness because they are incorrect and easily proved so. The only assumption I made was that you did not mean everyone, but now I am having my doubts. Looks to me like you are just covering your ass. I am not assuming you are covering your ass, just making an observation. Take it any way that you will.
Oh, and because I did miss it, what was the intention of your response to Apsara Kamilli?
Awake!
Ego Diabolus
Priest of R'lyeh
Cult of Cthulhu |
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Post by egodiabolus on Oct 28, 2010 5:32:16 GMT -6
I had to discuss this with a few of my compatriots before responding, just to make certain that I was reading it correctly. Not that I was doubting my ability to read your words or interpret their meaning, but that you were really saying what you are saying in your response. YOU were using sarcasm? Your facility for sarcasm much be so much more finely honed than mine and several other persons who have read your post. You come off as completely serious about your bit on technology AND misreading what Apsara Kamalli meant by "scary".
Reality is largely perception, however skewed it may be.
I would like to inquire as to what you believe I was assuming? I stated that generalizing statements... those dealing in absolutes (everyone, no one, etc) are statements which inhibit our wakefulness because they are incorrect and easily proved so. The only assumption I made was that you did not mean everyone, but now I am having my doubts. Looks to me like you are just covering your ass. I am not assuming you are covering your ass, just making an observation. Take it any way that you will.
Oh, and because I did miss it, what was the intention of your response to Apsara Kamilli?
Awake!
Ego Diabolus
Priest of R'lyeh
Cult of Cthulhu Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh, Your posts are way too predictable, I almost knew what your response would be even before I started reading it. Speaking of mechanical behavior in your earlier post, your posts show all the signs of mechanical behavior. Such as repeated patterens, negativity, egotism(hence the name), love for debate, augmentative, combative, etc. All signs of being a machine. Seems like you don't even see it. All this is thru my own observation of course. Maybe some false personality rearing its ugly head, maybe not. Your posts are entertaining so they serve a purpose. We need something to struggle against when we are trying to become more awake. For sure you identify too much in your posts, you get lost within your own posts by identifying. One just has to read your post in the quote above to see all that I said was true about your posts. It's full of negativity. Alittle angry are we? Not good. Not good when you're suppose to be more awake. To answer your question, my post was intended to have a friendly debate.Something different to talk about, not to turn it into this. So far removed from the topic. Not a surprise. Oh and by the way no sarcasm in this post. Don't take this post the wrong way, just wanted to point out some things that maybe you haven't notice before. All this is my own observation of course. So maybe we can move on to more important issues, too much wasted energy on this. Much love. Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
Reality is largely perception, however skewed it may be.
and:
Looks to me like you are just covering your ass. I am not assuming you are covering your ass, just making an observation. Take it any way that you will.
Awake... please.
Ego Diabolus
Priest of R'lyeh
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Post by andrewbloodworth on Oct 28, 2010 6:52:08 GMT -6
Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus, How long is my warning ban for?
Awake!
Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
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Post by beastx on Oct 28, 2010 7:24:47 GMT -6
Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus, How long is my warning ban for? Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
Alba Kalool,
Please take caution in how you proceed here. Priest of R'lyeh Diabolus has not given you a 'warning ban', he has simply given you a warning. You seem to be engaging him in a hostile manner, and I can assure you (having known him for many years now) his posts were not intended in that same manner. In fact, he was using them as an opportunity to teach objective use of language.
I can see where and when feathers got ruffled, but if you go back and reread the former threads; you'll see it wasn't intended an assault.
His point strongly laid on use of generality:
"I stated that generalizing statements... those dealing in absolutes (everyone, no one, etc) are statements which inhibit our wakefulness because they are incorrect and easily proved so."
I understand you are new to The Fourth Way, and in such newness, you've not yet discovered that Gurdjieff used a special language. He did this to emphasize consciousness within communication, because so often we say what we don't mean. I will post more on the use of Objective Language later today.
In the mean time, sit tight, you are still free to post on the forum and no actual 'ban' has taken place.
When the Stars are Right!
Beast Xeno
First Priest of R'lyeh
Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 28, 2010 11:04:05 GMT -6
It seems like there's been a giant misunderstanding.
While Alba Kalool might have been presumptuous, a bit rude, slightly ignorant, or overly defensive (I'm not saying he was, only that he might have been taken that way)... that doesn't mean his critique of Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus was threatening nor disrespectful.
Personally, I'm not sure if either of you share my understanding of the word sarcasm. However, that's a different issue. What I want to deal with now is Alba Kalool's perceived passive aggressive response to Master Diabolus' criticism. As I said before, Kalool's bold assertions might be dead wrong, but are not clearly based upon disrespect and therefore he broke no rule that would garner him an official warning.
Master Xeno brought up a salient point, new forum rule # 4 which I will quote here...
4. Everyone on the discussion boards is to be shown the utmost respect, consideration, and understanding... even those who would appear to be our enemy. Confrontations will happen, but when it resorts to childish name calling or blatant disrespect of a Cultist, then that's probably over the line.
Please not my use of italics.
While Alba Kalool might have not shown Master Diabolus the utmost respect, consideration, and understanding, I have to ask, isn't it a demand of higher office that a Priest of R'lyeh must show those of a lower degree even more respect, consideration, and understanding than they show him? How can a Master become angry or punitive with a student for questioning or providing a strange or laughable or even a half-assed critique? Is the R'lyehian Priest above criticism? How are we to uncover our own chief feature if not for the others pointing to our (possibly false) shortcomings? Where is the attempt to find common ground or reach a consensus? Where is the external consideration, love, mercy, and ideals of brotherhood which our religion proclaims to cherish?
In other words, was a warning really necessary? And more importantly, if such a thing stands then does that not set an unfortunate precedent for those who might want to question or critique anyone of authority within the Cult of Cthulhu? While I'm happy Master Diabolus restrained himself from outright banning the "offending" Cultist, I wish he had displayed extraordinary restraint from giving Alba Kalool a warning... effectively threatening him to fall in line or else be banned from our discussion boards in the near future. I may not like some Cultists, I may disagree with their ideas, find their behavior repellent, and their machine hopelessly flawed. And yet, I feel the responsibility, which comes with my power, to give everyone a fighting chance.
Though I would love to unify around one of our most senior Cultists in this matter, I fervently believe that Unification must be built upon a foundation of brotherhood or else it becomes empty rhetoric... or worse, a unified movement of power for the powerful. This emerald religion is a conscious attempt to transform as many people into higher beings as possible.
If something should happen to me, then those of the next rank will take my place. I rely on the Priesthood to steer this ship of state in the absence of my leadership. So why take action now? Because I want us to proceed in as conscious a manner as possible. Even though the disciples of Jesus Christ were charged with going out into the world to spread his word, not every disciple understood Jesus or acted as he would. I've not been crucified yet... that's why I continue to stand up for what is right, not what is expedient or suited to my ego.
I've since been discussing the matter with Master Xeno, and he believes that we should open it up to the entire forum before anything is done. Please, let us hear your views.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest
Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by tentaclednephilim on Oct 28, 2010 11:15:52 GMT -6
I think a fair question is where do we draw the line between coddling and constructive criticism?
Because perception is reality, how can we objectively determine someone's intent in such a faceless and impersonal environment of text?
I think these questions become more valid when you consider someone's writing style, educational background, social background, personality type, and psychology.
Awake!
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Post by ragnafa on Oct 28, 2010 11:24:36 GMT -6
I couldn't agree more Master Satanis. I believe we all need to have the upmost respect for every cultist here, even those who do not share our beliefs. In my opinion the moment we start to follow this path of who's wrong or who's right we place ourselves in the paradigm of the right hand path religions. I myself do not want that for our mighty religion. We stand out from any belief system that I have come across, and thats how it needs to be for all time. For one day I want to be a leader like Master Satanis and the Priest's of R'lyeh.
Awake....
For the Emerald kingdom is at Hand
Dreaming Wizard of the Terrible Darkness
Izratan'Sharaz
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Post by andrewbloodworth on Oct 28, 2010 11:45:49 GMT -6
It seems like there's been a giant misunderstanding.
While Alba Kalool might have been presumptuous, a bit rude, slightly ignorant, or overly defensive (I'm not saying he was, only that he might have been taken that way)... that doesn't mean his critique of Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus was threatening nor disrespectful.
Personally, I'm not sure if either of you share my understanding of the word sarcasm. However, that's a different issue. What I want to deal with now is Alba Kalool's perceived passive aggressive response to Master Diabolus' criticism. As I said before, Kalool's bold assertions might be dead wrong, but are not clearly based upon disrespect and therefore he broke no rule that would garner him an official warning.
Master Xeno brought up a salient point, new forum rule # 4 which I will quote here...4. Everyone on the discussion boards is to be shown the utmost respect, consideration, and understanding... even those who would appear to be our enemy. Confrontations will happen, but when it resorts to childish name calling or blatant disrespect of a Cultist, then that's probably over the line.Please not my use of italics.
While Alba Kalool might have not shown Master Diabolus the utmost respect, consideration, and understanding, I have to ask, isn't it a demand of higher office that a Priest of R'lyeh must show those of a lower degree even more respect, consideration, and understanding than they show him? How can a Master become angry or punitive with a student for questioning or providing a strange or laughable or even a half-assed critique? Is the R'lyehian Priest above criticism? How are we to uncover our own chief feature if not for the others pointing to our (possibly false) shortcomings? Where is the attempt to find common ground or reach a consensus? Where is the external consideration, love, mercy, and ideals of brotherhood which our religion proclaims to cherish?
In other words, was a warning really necessary? And more importantly, if such a thing stands then does that not set an unfortunate precedent for those who might want to question or critique anyone of authority within the Cult of Cthulhu? While I'm happy Master Diabolus restrained himself from outright banning the "offending" Cultist, I wish he had displayed extraordinary restraint from giving Alba Kalool a warning... effectively threatening him to fall in line or else be banned from our discussion boards in the near future. I may not like some Cultists, I may disagree with their ideas, find their behavior repellent, and their machine hopelessly flawed. And yet, I feel the responsibility, which comes with my power, to give everyone a fighting chance.
Though I would love to unify around one of our most senior Cultists in this matter, I fervently believe that Unification must be built upon a foundation of brotherhood or else it becomes empty rhetoric... or worse, a unified movement of power for the powerful. This emerald religion is a conscious attempt to transform as many people into higher beings as possible.
If something should happen to me, then those of the next rank will take my place. I rely on the Priesthood to steer this ship of state in the absence of my leadership. So why take action now? Because I want us to proceed in as conscious a manner as possible. Even though the disciples of Jesus Christ were charged with going out into the world to spread his word, not every disciple understood Jesus or acted as he would. I've not been crucified yet... that's why I continue to stand up for what is right, not what is expedient or suited to my ego.
I've since been discussing the matter with Master Xeno, and he believes that we should open it up to the entire forum before anything is done. Please, let us hear your views.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest
Cult of Cthulhu
Master Satanis, I wasn't being threatening nor disrespectful, maybe not necessary wording it nicely. I will in the future show up most respect for all here. I put alot of time in effort and the love the CoC too much for it to crumple cause of different views. It was a huge misunderstanding for sure. Also thanks to First Priest of R'lyeh Beast Xeno, your post was the first one I saw after all this was posted, and Thank you . Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn |
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Post by beastx on Oct 28, 2010 12:09:05 GMT -6
I think a fair question is where do we draw the line between coddling and constructive criticism? Because perception is reality, how can we objectively determine someone's intent in such a faceless and impersonal environment of text? I think these questions become more valid when you consider someone's writing style, educational background, social background, personality type, and psychology.
I believe the above quote holds an answer to the riddle of this.
Gurdjieff said " And I tell you that people comparatively rarely tell a deliberate lie. In most cases they think they speak the truth. And yet they lie all the time, both when they wish to lie and when they wish to speak the truth. They lie all the time, both to themselves and to others. "
Further in the text Gurdjieff said "The transmission of the meaning of symbols to a man who has not reached an understanding of them in himself is impossible. This sounds like a paradox, but the meaning of a symbol and the disclosure of its essence can only be given to, and can only be understood by, one who, so to speak, already knows what is comprised in this symbol. And then a symbol becomes for him a synthesis of his knowledge and serves him for the expression and transmission of his knowledge just as it served the man who constructed it."
This is really what gets at the heart of the above post by tentaclednephilim, idea being expressed by Gurdjieff, and why I suggested to High Priest Satanis we open this up for discussion. Without a doubt it continues the conscious intent of Master Diabolus' post that was followed by these events.
It is the careless use of 'sarcasms', generalities, and passive aggressive language which leads to the perception that one is being blatantly disrespectful. This is one of many examples of why we should focus on using Objective Language.
Objective Language is a form of symbolism which we can utilize to aid in fighting the use of a 'sleeping' language. As we must understand it is not how we perceive the 'transmission' we are sending that is important. Rather it is how the Receiver of the 'transmission' perceives it.
More to come in a different thread kiddies... Stay tuned..
Awake... !?!
Beast Xeno
First Priest of R'lyeh
Cult of Cthulhu |
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 28, 2010 14:08:20 GMT -6
I think a fair question is where do we draw the line between coddling and constructive criticism? Because perception is reality, how can we objectively determine someone's intent in such a faceless and impersonal environment of text? I think these questions become more valid when you consider someone's writing style, educational background, social background, personality type, and psychology.
I believe the above quote holds an answer to the riddle of this.
Gurdjieff said " And I tell you that people comparatively rarely tell a deliberate lie. In most cases they think they speak the truth. And yet they lie all the time, both when they wish to lie and when they wish to speak the truth. They lie all the time, both to themselves and to others. "
Further in the text Gurdjieff said "The transmission of the meaning of symbols to a man who has not reached an understanding of them in himself is impossible. This sounds like a paradox, but the meaning of a symbol and the disclosure of its essence can only be given to, and can only be understood by, one who, so to speak, already knows what is comprised in this symbol. And then a symbol becomes for him a synthesis of his knowledge and serves him for the expression and transmission of his knowledge just as it served the man who constructed it."
This is really what gets at the heart of the above post by tentaclednephilim, idea being expressed by Gurdjieff, and why I suggested to High Priest Satanis we open this up for discussion. Without a doubt it continues the conscious intent of Master Diabolus' post that was followed by these events.
It is the careless use of 'sarcasms', generalities, and passive aggressive language which leads to the perception that one is being blatantly disrespectful. This is one of many examples of why we should focus on using Objective Language.
Objective Language is a form of symbolism which we can utilize to aid in fighting the use of a 'sleeping' language. As we must understand it is not how we perceive the 'transmission' we are sending that is important. Rather it is how the Receiver of the 'transmission' perceives it.
More to come in a different thread kiddies... Stay tuned..
Awake... !?!
Beast Xeno
First Priest of R'lyeh
Cult of Cthulhu
Master Xeno recalled another forum member who I banned a few weeks ago. To my mind, his post constituted "blatant disrespect". For instance using phrases such as "ignorant fuck face" and "that Darrick guy is a douche bag" compounded by several insolent remarks directed towards the Cult of Cthulhu itself. No matter how hard I try, I can't see that as constructive criticism in any way, shape, or form. I wish I could find that particular post, but I have no idea where it is (if it still exists). If someone comes across it, then feel free to quote the entire post here in this thread for easy reference.
Things brings up another issue. Is some slight component of mild or "friendly" disrespect implied in the concept of disagreement? Obviously, we can't all agree on anything. Nor should we seek to do so!
Disrespect:
1. contempt, disregard, irreverence.
2. Rudeness
3. Lack of respect, esteem, or courteous regard.
If blatant disrespect is not clear or objective enough, then perhaps I should fix the language in our forum rules. What would be better... severe disrespectful ridicule, personal contemptuous disrespect, or oppressively disparaging disrespect? If such a thing occurs, then I have no problem with warning or even going so far as to ban the individual... as long as everything is done out in the open.
Additionally, there's something to be said for impartiality. I'm sure we've all heard of someone being cited for "contempt of court". In such a case, the judge is a third party and not part of the original dispute. If one were to be both the plaintiff and judge, would that not be grossly unfair to the defendant?
One caveat, I'm not playing a blame game. I'm not looking to blame anyone. I have no desire to find a scapegoat. My opinions are only to better our central hub of communications for the Cthulhu Cult. I want a worthwhile experience for all or as many as humanly possible. Because we've never discussed the minutia which goes along with forum rule interpretation and protocol execution, I'm loath to hold Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus' actions against him personally. I'm sure he was doing what he considered to be right at the time given the available facts and emotional circumstances.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest
Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by lucofthelight on Oct 28, 2010 14:28:32 GMT -6
From observing from outside this discussion, It appears that the use of general language has caused this misunderstanding along with the lack of visual cues that go along with conversation.
From reading many of Master Diabolus' past posts here on the forum, I would say it is a common occurrence with newer members that his objective insight may be taken as sarcasm or personal attack, however I think this is far from the actual case.
I think the thread would have gone in a more constructive way if the initial message Master Diabolus put forth on the Objective use of words and language had been noted and pursued.
With that being said, I would also say it is a healthy thing in any organization to be able to question the leadership, as long as it is done in a respectful manner and is as objective as possible.
Awake!
K'ara Kaiul
Esoteric Wizard of the Terrible Darkness
Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by egodiabolus on Oct 28, 2010 15:08:58 GMT -6
I had to take a moment to decide how to respond to all that has passed.
Alba Kalool:
While I appreciate your apology, this is another teaching moment, just as your use of generalities and absolutes, accidental by my observation and intentionally sarcastic by your explanation, was. You have stated in other posts that you believe that Awakening is a matter of personal "feeling", that only the individual can determine if they are Awakened or not. I look more toward the theory presented by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, one you will run across as you continue your reading of "The Fourth Way". An Awakened state is observable in your deeds. When all of your centers are in correct working-order, not only will you "feel" it, but you will know it, you will move according to it, your body will function in light of it, and your deeds will reflect an Awakened state. I am not Awakened, only relatively more Aware than I once was, but my deeds are intentional almost all of the time.
We will see what your deeds prove.
First Priest of R'lyeh Beast Xeno:
Thank you for your guidance, your voice of mediation, and your unwavering support. I look forward to discussing the importance of the proper use of language as a tool for intentional Awareness in your thread.
Tentaclednephalim:
Your insight and questions are right on. This is a Left hand Path organization, or at least that is how it has come to be defined. It is populated by Satanists and Satanicly-leaning individuals. There is little to no room for "coddling" here, and none should expect it. If I am mistaken, and it is the Cult of Cthulhu is meant to be Cthulhu's Sweetness-and-Light Brigade, I missed the memo, and someone please let me know.
Because it is difficult to know a person's intent based on a text document, it is doubly important that we choose our words carefully, and mean whatever it is we write. I stand by my opinion that Kalool fully meant what he wrote in response to Kamalli's post, and only tried to reverse himself when he took my critique personally.
And, despite the humor and sarcasm in my posts, please be mindful, everyone, that I am THE proponent of meaning what we write and stating things intentionally. When it comes off as a slight... guess what... I meant it and have no qualms about it.
Izratan'Sharaz:
You and your wife's tattoos are going to be bad-ass.
High Priest Venger As'Nas Satanis:
Alba Kalool has been "presumptuous, a bit rude," woefully "ignorant, and overly defensive". His critique of me would normally be welcomed, if it was not a reaction to an imagined slight on my part against him. Had he more experience here, or taken the time to read all my posts (as I have his), he would become aware that I am more than negative, egotistical, a lover of debate, augmentative, and combative... that I have championed this organization's cause both in this forum and out of it since I began studying here. I have defended attacks against this organization and against its founder repeatedly both here and elsewhere, even in such far-flung nodes as Deviantart.
We have had our share of people claiming to have been shot in the head and returned to life as vampires, personal representatives of Cthulhu, people who insisted they were Awake immediately after reading (and misinterpreting) the definition, gate-walking sychophants who trashed us because our impression of the mythos disagreed with Simon's, romantics who have insisted that a woman doing what she will with her body was opposed to nature, those who have equated us with Nazis... and I have acted as the lightning-rod for these exchanges. I have brought to question whether or not these statements were suggestions of a struggle for Awareness in congruence to our goals or a struggle to remain asleep and take a few of us down with them. It seems to be my lot to have a fine-tuned bullshit detector and to have a low-tolerance for the people spewing it. I know that my insistence on having at least some minimal standards cutting out some of the nonsense we endure and challenging those who fail to meet that cut has benefited this organization.
My participation and continued celebration of this organization only adds to its validity in the minds of many of those outside of it.
I saw how this "conversation" with Kalool was going to get nowhere; the man thinks he is Awake, and anyone that asleep is not going to hear much said to them. Recognizing that a rational discussion was not an option, I went with plan B... using my authority as an administrator of this forum and an officer of this organization to warn him. Certainly, he is a student, and yes, his comments where those of a braying ass, but here, the student failed to recognize the lesson, and in his ignorance tried to take a potential teacher down a rung or two because what the teacher was saying did not immediately make sense to him.
First Priest of R'lyeh Beast Xeno once banned a member for similar behaviors, and had that ban reversed, with the protocol being explained as the offending member needing to be warned first and given the opportunity to correct the issue or explain themselves. I did not invite his attack... excuse me... his critique. As it seems that issuing the warning and copying the officers of this organization on the warning is not the appropriate protocol, what then is?
Yes, the warning was necessary. Letting this ignorance flourish in some skewed pursuit of allowing each of us to chase our own private interpretations of Awakening diminishes our efforts and demeans our organization. It was, after all, only a warning. Kalool needed to be reminded that he has been pursuing the Work for a month, and that perhaps he needs to listen more and speak less. You, yourself have issued such statements to others who have questioned your expertise and authority. If the tool exists, the ability to warn a member, then is it not better to do so privately, where perhaps the member might pause and reflect, before making the mistake of earning a ban and being embarrassed publicly?
And, it was my intention that this all be handled privately. Kalool again shows his stunted awareness by bringing this back onto the public boards. Now I find myself needing to have this discussion openly, as my reprimand is also public. If my interpretation of my duties, if my zeal for the advancement of this organization, and if my investment here is misplaced, then, please, strip away my title. I won't have to hold back when fools manifest in our forums like I have as an officer and representative of the Cult of Cthulhu.
If something should happen to you, High Priest Venger As'Nas Satanis, will you rely on a subordinate's interpretation of your intentions for your organization to be the guide for the future, or will you have established a structure and standards that endure even the most skewed interpretations and perpetuate this institution beyond us all?
I know you are saying that you are certain I was doing what I knew to be the right thing for this organization, but I question your conviction in these words. For the sake of this organization, we have to begin actually drawing a line, separating the wheat from the chaff, insisting on standards. You have rules about spelling and grammar... why? No doubt the intent is to make it easier for us to communicate, but also so that outsiders visiting our forum don't leave here with the impression that we are a bunch of half-wits who can only express ourselves in text-speak! What image of the Cult of Cthulhu is being reflected in the vampires, sychophants, gate-walkers, and pre-Awakened rabble that is drawn here because they don't understand what it is we pursue and demonstrate in short order that they lack the faculty to pursue it?
Contempt of court means that a person, any person, in a court of law has violated the protocols of the court or disrespected an officer of that court. In this, the judge of the court is not impartial, rather anything that he or she construes as disrespect earns the offender a warning, followed by a fine and a night in jail if they fail to take the hint.
Reading Kalool's posts, do you think the hint was working? I want a worthwhile experience for as many people as possible. Sometimes, comments like Kalool's and others are more inhibitive to that goal than they are worth having.
I know you will ask for a solution. In the Army, if you are discussing a concept with an officer and the officer lets you know that the discussion will go in THIS direction, or that the discussion is ended, he is doing so because what he has to say and the way it is being discussed might save your life. If the subordinate wants to disagree, he approaches the officer respectfully and privately. THAT is when the officer gives his due respect to the subordinate.
We are not a military unit, but we are an organization with only the glimmer of a structure, and the whisper of standards. What happens when we are willing to capitulate to any idea, tolerate any behavior, give voice to any opinion? Then, we have none. The way this organization survives beyond you is to establish its structure now and cultivate individuals who are willing to support it, defend it, and encourage its growth in the future.
Hold my actions against me personally. I am a responsible, self-actuated adult. That is part of the problem... I held Kalool's actions personally against him as I should, assuming that he is also a responsible, self-actuated adult, as are all the members here. Am I mistaken, and are kids-gloves a requirement for the officers of the Cult of Cthulhu?
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhatgn?
Ego Diabolus
Priest of R'lyeh
Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by beastx on Oct 28, 2010 15:25:32 GMT -6
Seems to me Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus doesn't like when someone questions his authority. He for sure wants me off of here. Wonder why? Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
I don't believe that is the case at all. Reread you will find you are part of his example and not the focus.
PS...
MrCharming33, I banned him and for very good reason...
Ia Ia!
Beast Xeno
First Priest of R'leh
Cult of Cthulhu |
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Post by andrewbloodworth on Oct 28, 2010 15:35:16 GMT -6
Seems to me Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus doesn't like when someone questions his authority. He for sure wants me off of here. Wonder why? Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
I don't believe that is the case at all. Reread you will find you are part of his example and not the focus.
PS...
MrCharming33, I banned him and for very good reason...
Ia Ia!
Beast Xeno
First Priest of R'leh
Cult of CthulhuFirst Priest of R'lyeh Beast Xeno, you're right. Just seems this is out of control and I don't think I crossed the line. Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn |
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Post by beastx on Oct 28, 2010 15:42:27 GMT -6
I don't believe that is the case at all. Reread you will find you are part of his example and not the focus.
PS...
MrCharming33, I banned him and for very good reason...
Ia Ia!
Beast Xeno
First Priest of R'leh
Cult of CthulhuFirst Priest of R'lyeh Beast Xeno, you're right. Just seems this is was out of control and I don't think I crossed the line. Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
Alba Kalool,
Trust me on this one thing... Open your mind to what is actually being expressed. You'll gain a gold mine of wisdom and insight. Master Diabolus is not smiting you, you have just accidentally (or on purpose, I won't argue for either) given a platform for us ALL to gain some Understanding.
When the Stars are Right!
Beast Xeno
First Priest of R'lyeh
Cult of Cthulhu |
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Post by egodiabolus on Oct 28, 2010 16:02:39 GMT -6
First Priest of R'lyeh Beast Xeno, you're right. Just seems this is was out of control and I don't think I crossed the line. Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
Alba Kalool,
Trust me on this one thing... Open your mind to what is actually being expressed. You'll gain a gold mine of wisdom and insight. Master Diabolus is not smiting you, you have just accidentally (or on purpose, I won't argue for either) given a platform for us ALL to gain some Understanding.
When the Stars are Right!
Beast Xeno
First Priest of R'lyeh
Cult of Cthulhu
Precisely as Master Beast Xeno says. You don't think you crossed a line, but you don't know where the line is. Neither do I. I know where I perceive the line, and you know where you perceive it... perception is reality.
Question me all you like, but answer for me why you saw my initial post as a personal attack against you? I have read and re-read that initial post, as has Apsara Kamalli, and neither of us can figure out what set you off or why you thought I was out to get you. You're leaning, I get that. So am I. Read through my posts and responses to the many, many individuals who were not here to learn, just to promote their own personal delusions. It will give you some idea of where I am coming from and just what kind of litmus test I present to a select few deserving individuals.
Awake!
Ego Diabolus
Priest of R'lyeh
Cult of Cthulhu |
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 28, 2010 16:41:30 GMT -6
As I do not want to go through what has been newly written line by line at this time, allow me to do the following...
I will stand by my earlier posts, thank every Cultist for participating, encourage others to freely speak their mind without fear of hurting anyone's feelings or being penalized for criticism, remind everyone of the invaluable learning experience which this obstacle provides, continue my belief that we all have this religion's best interest at heart, and task myself with revising the new forum rules in order to prevent a similar occurrence.
In closing, I provide the vision-poetry of Unification which came to me in a dream months ago.
All those brothers, Left Hand Path
Why are they waiting
When influence clearly wains
Come together in worship
You praise the same evil Gods
Be whole under one order
All my brothers, Left Hand Path
Unify through me
Darkness shall not be divided
Acal ozra p'reji
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest
Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by xiaogui17 on Oct 28, 2010 21:06:08 GMT -6
Know that I am approaching this conflict as an outsider, and I must open with the disclaimer that I am not half this cool-headed when I am the one doing the arguing (would that I were!). Nevertheless, insolent as this is, I think it is better stated than not.
Alba Kalool:
If you felt that Master Diabolus misunderstood your post, I believe the best course of action would have been to clarify what you meant. For example, “I didn’t mean X; what I actually meant was Y.” This way, if there was genuinely an error in communication, it could have been fixed without any trouble. Make the focus of your post the issue at hand (the meaning of your statement) instead of trying to pin blame or accuse another (“you thru assuming were caught sleeping”). This way, all can be resolved in a civil manner. In the event that Master Diabolus had an unfair evaluation of you, being the bigger person would give you a degree of dignity.
Back on the Modern Church of Satan forums, Master Satanis attempted to share some material. Many of the responses were verbally hostile, categorically dismissive, and downright insulting. Yet throughout the discussion, he maintained the utmost decorum, being respectful and courteous even to those who were abrasive. While he may not have been well-received as a whole, he definitely got my attention. I consider it an excellent model for how to handle a perceived slight, and you may want to look over it for future reference:
modernchurchofsatan.com/grotto/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3729&start=15
Ego Diabolus:
Your critiques always seemed to me to be fair and accurate, neither overly aggressive nor soft, with enough precision to correct fault and encourage improvement. Those that are eager and ready to Awake will treasure your scrutiny. As for those that are totally averse to Awakening, you do well not to cast your pearls before swine and have excellent discretion on where to draw that line (better than my own, in regards to Prince “Charming”).
There is a middle ground between the two, in those who desire to Awake, but still have some reluctance or defensiveness. For them, an iron hand in a velvet glove is necessary. While what you say may be true, they may not be ready to hear it all at once, and hitting them with it full force may cause them to resist all the more.
I did not see any aggression in your primary response. Nonetheless, after Alba Kalool took umbrage to what you posted and claimed he was being sarcastic, you implied he was “covering his ass.” Be that as it may, I don’t think it would have hurt to give him the benefit of the doubt and invite him to explain his meaning without suggesting any suspicion of insincerity or defensiveness on his part. If he was attempting to wriggle out of a blunder, it would have been apparent without the need to call him out on it, and he would have had no further cause to take offense.
I can tell you that, as a small child, I dreaded a stern look from my mother far more than shouting from my father. My father raised his voice so frequently it all blurred together and I tuned it out. But my mother just fixed a piercing gaze that filled me with shame.
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For the record, none of us are Awake. It does not a one of us any good to go back-and-forth, accusing one another of being asleep. We’re all going to have far better success focusing our efforts towards Awakening ourselves than we would if we all sought to Awaken someone else.My post from The Fourth Way thread, reproduced as a general statement for all to keep in mind: This reminds me of an excerpt from Liber A:O... When others are upset, taking their negativity out on you, even though they are actually upset at themselves or their circumstances, remain calm and composed. It is silly to become mad at a machine because machines are not conscious. They have no real control over what they do or how they think and feel. In christianity, they recommend forgiveness. However, that is not quite right. It is acceptance that's required. One does not condone the wrong action of machines nor does one enjoy its fruits. It is simply a fact of life. Understand that things could not be any other way.If it is the nature of the childish to be abrasive, being angry at them is like being angry at fire for burning.Way of the Bodhisattva 6.39Anger is a wasted emotion that would be far better spent doing something constructive.
Vanessa
Esoteric Wizard of the Terrible Darkness
Cult of Cthulhu
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