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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 31, 2006 17:23:07 GMT -6
In the Drama of Life do you see yourself as:
Hero Anti-Hero Villain Observer Victim
"tell it true" as Lynnyrd Skynnyrd said
P.S.--anyone says "i'm the playwright" gets a hot lead enema with ovaltine.... Benjamin
this was such a great question (which he posted in the Cult of Cthulhu yahoo group) that i thought it deserved to be seen on the forum as well. thanks for the thought-provoking query, Ben. i hope lots of people consider this well...
VS
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Post by jameson on Nov 1, 2006 1:56:38 GMT -6
observer
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 1, 2006 17:16:38 GMT -6
i could argue one way or another until the end of my days... and i actually see myself doing this in my spare time. but if i had to give my shoot from the hip 'gut reaction' it would be Villain. i've always identified with the villain while watching movies, reading stories, and living life. the villain has the power and the Will to create his own unique destiny.
the anti-hero is a close second, however, i see the anti-hero as a misunderstood and partially victimized Hero... and while i sometimes feel that way, i'd rather be the sonofabitch doing the dirty work because it's my calling.
i hope everyone finds time to do a little soul searching and answer this crucial question.
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priestwww.CultofCthulhu.net
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Post by psychothustra on Nov 1, 2006 19:54:15 GMT -6
I'm an Observer since i can think. Always curious in things. Especialy the non-conform things like magick or so called "esoteric" things.
It's like I'm always reading between the lines of reality. If i want or not. I can't make a choice. Something i'm maybe born with.
Maybe i'm searching or waiting for something.
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Post by stretloth on Nov 2, 2006 7:26:02 GMT -6
Anti-Hero beleive me I want to be the villan, but ive always been a doomed champion. Because of the fact that I am not the one screwing people over...Im the one who wants to do something about it!(regardless of the consiquences) I would be lieing to myself if I said I was a villan, just because im 'evil' doesnt mean that I have to be under-handed and dastardly. This probably spawns from my 'Odinist' beginnings...Cant seem to shirk those feelings of Honor and Glory being very important to a mans soul.
Stretloth
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 2, 2006 12:10:09 GMT -6
absolutely nothing wrong with glory and honor!
VS
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Post by jameson on Nov 3, 2006 7:58:30 GMT -6
I guess honestly Im the anti hero.I do good and defend when good things happen to me.Likewise the villian in me is unleashed and does its evil when I am the subject of bad.
The anti hero is the ultimate product of his/her environment and will act in any way he/she feels forced.The observer to some degree reamains a part as long as there is self awareness.
Pick a side left or right
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Post by setnacht on Nov 3, 2006 9:18:11 GMT -6
Good question.... How do i see myself?!?
I guess it's a synthesis of two of them, observer and villain.
Observer, because i have a strong affinity for zen(although i am a satanist, but when it comes to awakening, to the point of pure potential and power to create, it's a good advice to read some of the old sutras)
Villain, because.....yeah....i guess i would have more friends if i'd be a good guy. I am a satanist. That alone is enough to have lots of enemies!! I am arrogant, consider myself a god, i hate stupid persons(and let them at times know it)...i very often leave an odd/strange/weird impression on those i talked to, never to see them again. I love to discuss and come out of a discussion victorious......
Yep, i am the villain/observer type.
Setnacht
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Post by setnacht on Nov 3, 2006 9:21:28 GMT -6
Good question.... How do i see myself?!?
I guess it's a synthesis of two of them, observer and villain.
Observer, because i have a strong affinity for zen(although i am a satanist, but when it comes to awakening, to the point of pure potential and power to create, it's a good advice to read some of the old sutras)
Villain, because.....yeah....i guess i would have more friends if i'd be a good guy. I am a satanist. That alone is enough to have lots of enemies!! I am arrogant, consider myself a god, i hate stupid persons(and let them at times know it)...i very often leave an odd/strange/weird impression on those i talked to, never to see them again. I love to discuss and come out of a discussion victorious......
Yep, i am the villain/observer type.
Setnacht
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 5, 2006 12:25:27 GMT -6
i think for this exercise, you can only choose one. and remember that you're answering how you see yourself... rather than what you occasionally resemble or how you act from time to time. below all the surface, you perceive yourself as a singular entity, even though it seems (and is) many I's conflict in man's everyday sleeping state.
look deep... bordering on the subconscious. how a magician views himself is extremely important.
know thyself
until a magician has a true sense of himself, he has nothing... no understanding, no goals, and no Will.
VS
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Post by setnacht on Nov 5, 2006 15:28:07 GMT -6
ok. If i had to chose just one, without analyzing my choice, i'd say villain! But let me say one thing, please... Below the surface i really do perceive myself as one single entity, but that is mere conciousness, without any label attached to it. To label this single conciousness with just one name is inadequate. Sometimes i am a villain, sometimes i am an observer, depending on what i do. Setnacht
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 5, 2006 16:49:03 GMT -6
you bring up some interesting distinctions, Setnacht.
the 'how you see yourself' question is not just a catch-all label, rather it is the realization of which perceived self is Master.
there's no doubt that we all have different sides to us, that we are many "I's". however, underneath we see ourselves as one persona first and foremost.
otherwise the question is meaningless... because anyone can come up with reasons for being all of these: hero, anti-hero, villain, observer, etc.
VS
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Post by setnacht on Nov 5, 2006 18:12:52 GMT -6
I think, i know what you mean, VS. In chaos-magick, we talk about reality structured by what we believe. And (and this is one of the major strengths of chaos-magick) we can change these believe-systems at will, as we need them. Every human being does that. The difference is, that we magicians are concious about this process. We control it. Let's get back to the single entity we find below the surface. I believe that it has no form. Thats what i mean when i say that it is mere conciousness without any label. My point is that we structure that conciousness, that single somewhat we find, by the system of believe we apply. So, the question is:" What system of believe do i again and again apply, what do i think am i??" If i have the habit (because i am still asleep, or lazy or whatever) to find myself being caught up in the same believe system, let's say that of the villain, i can say "Yes, i am the villain", because thats the system i live in most often. Again, if i can say anything about that "ME" i find, it is that it's formless unless i give it a form by my believe habits. This can be a good thing or it can be selfdestructive. I cant have one side of the coin without the other. If i perceive myself as the villain in and to the world, i am the villain to me and my inner world as well, until i chose to change it. But i have to be so damn aware of this process to be able to do it. Taking all these points into consideration i can honestly say that i am the villain!! Setnacht
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Post by jameson on Nov 5, 2006 18:19:27 GMT -6
Victims aren't we all? Villain, because.....yeah....i guess i would have more friends if i'd be a good guy. I am a satanist. That alone is enough to have lots of enemies!! I am arrogant, consider myself a god, i hate stupid persons(and let them at times know it)...i very often leave an odd/strange/weird impression on those i talked to, never to see them again. That would b considered a hero in my book because Im defiant of social norms and because I find myself the same way normally. I cling to observer first and foremost.I am a critic of many things.Such requires observation and to be quite honest I rather observe from a distance than be in the mix.I would rather be far gone yet watching when anything happens.Observer
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 5, 2006 19:58:06 GMT -6
this "label" or "what we call ourselves" might also just be our nature. there are many systems for identifying, categorizing, and self-observation. in the Vampire roleplaying game, there was Nature and Demeanor. in Freud's theory we have the Ego, the Super-Ego, and the Id.
so i'm not sure that anyone would want to change if they could. i do believe that fundamental, core changes are possible in an individual though. all it takes is self-awareness, know-how, and effort. the same skills one needs to Awaken.
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priestwww.CultofCthulhu.net
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Post by jameson on Nov 6, 2006 17:17:58 GMT -6
The fact that one recognizes self at all creates a sort of dissociation as though one is discussing something external.One becomes aware for that moment of thier "self".Recognize and ponder for a moment about this obserrever of self and you create another observer.The loop can become never ending or if using a reductive minset,until u are stripped to the core or in a constructive mindset until u build a universe.This thread certainly has me pondering.
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Post by setnacht on Nov 6, 2006 18:01:50 GMT -6
Good point, jameson!!
When we talk like that ("I have a self") we create a gap that doesn't exist at all. When "I" have a "self"...who's "i" and what's the "self"?? This kind of talk constructs a reality wich is in no way in accordance with what's going on. I am the self i am talking about. I dinstinguish for the sake of communicating some ideas.
So, when we talk about observing the self...how could that be possible?? For me, the self(me/i.....not two things...i am the self.there's nothing else) is like a formless void. The observer we come to perceive is a thought-construct! Out of that formless void that i am come and go thoughts. But when the thoughts are gone...what remains?? The formless void...mere consciousness.
Setnacht
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 6, 2006 20:50:52 GMT -6
it is extremely difficult for man to become his own observer; being an observer once removed would be even more challenging. theoretically, man could keep going like infinite images between two mirrors... but as a reality? next to impossible. do you deny that the observer and the observed are separate? is consciousness not somewhat divorced from flesh?
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priestwww.CultofCthulhu.net
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Post by setnacht on Nov 7, 2006 3:24:57 GMT -6
Yes, i believe that the observer and the observed aren't seperate, indeed, they are one and the same! The observer is an artificial product made out of thoughts. I came to this conclusion (wich is not alone my invention...you'll find that in Zen, Taoism, and A.O.Spare for example) by some meditation practice. Meditate in the fashion of your choice and just observe. In the beginning, you'll see that there seems to be the observer and the thing that is observed. But try to observe the current of your thoughts. Between your thoughts, there is nothing but perception. Not two things. When you just perceive, there is only one thing. You, the self. By analyzing what you perceive, you create the observer through your thoughts. These thoughts come up out of "self", still being a part of that self!! It's a funny illusion, that the thoughts that come from "self" are seperate from "self" (damn, i hope i can make clear what i mean...i feel, that it is hard for me to articulate in english what i mean.... be patient with me). Just look at it as close as you can. Between the thoughts, what is there?!? Nothing but perception. You will find that there is not " I perceive THAT". Only when the thoughts interfere and you start analizing what is perceived, is the duality of the observer and the observed created. And it is just that: a creation of our own!!!! Here lies a great and wonderful secret that isn't a secret at all: our ability to create, to be (literally!!!) the origin of a new creation!! Again, the observer is made out of our thoughts. We can easily be fooled to believe that it is seperate from the "self" that we are and where the observer comes from. But you CAN give the observer some degree of souvereignity(did i spell this right??). Just focus on the observer. It's the same technique that one applies when creating an elemental or a thought form or some kind of tibetean kylkhor. You focus on the thoughts (remember...the observer can bee seen as some kind of thought form) and by this energize them and give it life!! This is a hard question. I would say that flesh is conciousness and consciousnes is flesh. We cannot know the answer to this question since our perceptions are subjective. I see it like this: Perception is nothing but an electro-chemical reaction in our brain (i say brain, but i do believe in something beyond). What we seem to see is not what is out there. It's just our interpretation of some undefined "quantum-foam" out there....or - what i like more - it's our formgiving to that quantum-foam. We are creators. Since every perception happens to be on our heads, we cannot say what really is. I believe that we are swimming in an infinite ocean of consciousness. I don't mean nothingness (like some buddhists). We, every single "self" (every single formless void/consciousness), are swimming like a fish in an ocean of consciousness. That doesnt mean that we sometime in the future fade away and become one with that ocean. It's a paradox. We are one and we aren't. I like to see it as a spider-net. Every one of us is connected with everything else. But we keep our individuality. Thats why we can influence things near and far away by our thoughts, wich can easily get energized as i said before. Setnacht ;D
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Post by harlequinshaitan on Nov 11, 2006 19:11:01 GMT -6
Villain.
Harlequin Shaitan Herald of the Old Gods
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Post by setnacht on Nov 12, 2006 10:42:16 GMT -6
ok..after all the long posts....
Hero!
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crowbabe
Novitiate
Crow - One Wicked Kewl Witch
Posts: 5
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Post by crowbabe on Nov 12, 2006 11:31:20 GMT -6
I see myself as Hero, I am socially conscious and very active politically. I think its a personal choice to want to make the world a better place, and it only takes one voice to start an avalanche. I am that voice. I am pro-active and not afraid to take control if need be. I am a born leader, and do not shrink from challenges. I think that all adds up to Hero.
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Post by thehereticsaint13 on Nov 12, 2006 15:04:48 GMT -6
I am: The Scarred, The Anti-Hero, The Broken, The Used, The Hated, The Fallen, The Lost, The Unforgiven, The Nameless, The Nice Guy, The Fighter, The Lover, The Asshole, The Epiphany, The Question, The Compasionate, The Faithless, and most importantly...I am The Cold.
Any questions?
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Post by ajwins on Jan 7, 2007 13:48:13 GMT -6
I think if I stopped and really looked at it, I fit in the "Villian who really thinks he's the good guy" catergory. Not an anti-hero because I'm firmly committed that what I'm doing is right, and lack the whole "anti-hero dark brooding tortured thing". Despite this, I tend to be so grossly at-odds with so much of what people think is right and decent that I can't really justify being anything other than the bad guy, at least from the perspective of the world at large.
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Post by JJ Burke on Jan 9, 2007 21:00:33 GMT -6
observer all the way. i'm tethered to this physical avatar, and thereby required to play some role in this semi-common reality, but the nucleus of what i am does not truly feel the identity or urgency of the classic human condition. sometimes i go through the motions of a hero, anti-hero, villain or victim, but i'm always in the act of observation
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Post by coren on Feb 15, 2007 13:58:16 GMT -6
I definitely see my self as villain. Like VS, I've always wanted the bad guys to win on T.V. and video games. And as I am opposed to almost everything society has to offer, I can only be compared to the 'adversary' in a biblical sense. Satan is the great anti-hero who stands up to heaven's tyranny, but he's still EVIL. Better to reign!!!
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 15, 2007 15:21:45 GMT -6
cool. glad i'm not alone.
VS
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Post by sloth on Feb 20, 2007 18:42:53 GMT -6
Most assuredly an observer, THE GREAT RACE is alive and well.
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Post by Latheeb on Feb 20, 2007 19:26:59 GMT -6
Hmmn soul searching? didn't i sign that over already? well anyways i guess i would be a villain because of my natural lust for power. This has driven me to do many 'irrational' things i suppose. But i guess that depends on your definition of irrational.
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Post by youma on Feb 20, 2007 20:36:43 GMT -6
I define myself as the chaos within which all can take form or dissolve. Something indefinite, with shifting rules and movements, unpredictible even to itself. I am the mathematical solution to infinity divided by infinity, the roar of a great tempest in the dark void where no sound exists, and the madness that awaits the traveller. I am God and I am the dust beneath a man's foot, and the nagging insect and the indifferent bird above them. I sit on a plane at 90° from reality, never far away, and never quite settled. I am, in the end, providing an obscure metaphorical definition of my identity, which is unlikely to be very useful, and ultimately only refers to the lack of an accurate definition or the inner world. My choice of images is supposed to express that I can not assign myself a role because it would only be true for a little while.
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