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Post by egodiabolus on Jun 15, 2010 9:07:30 GMT -6
"The Fourth Way" finds Ouspensky discussing concepts in a different "language" than the common usage, so care must be taken to recognize the meaning he ascribes to a word vs. the common meaning. His discussion of centers, and the Fourth Way in general, is what he refers to as "psychological"; following less the science of psychology as it is commonly understood and more trying to understand the functions of the mind. Ouspensky displays a great depth of understanding, but it is an understanding of philosophy and not psychology.
Biorhythm theory focuses on three cyclical patterns; physiological, emotional, and mental. I would liken these three patterns to the instinctive, emotional, and mental centers, respectively. The fourth center, movement, refers to the part of the mind that, while not instinctive, still deals with the motion of the physical body. It is the part of the mind that is trained to perform certain physical tasks, like hand-writing or riding a bicycle. The Movement Center doesn't have an apparent cyclical process; it either functions in a certain manner or it does not.
Ouspensky discusses these centers as points of focus and areas for development; he is basically dividing the whole human experience into four simple categories. Biorhythm theory suggests that our daily experience is defined by peaks and valleys of performance; we have times when we are mentally more astute than others. Furthermore, these cycles can be measured and predicted, and by being aware of when to expect peaks and valleys, we can tailor our activities to meet those periods for greater over-all efficiency. For example; if I know that 10am is a high-point in my mental function, I should try to schedule any mentally-challenging activity for 10am.
Ouspensky would probably suggest that, while helpful, this awareness of our mental, emotional, and physical beings is still limited to an over-all lack of awareness, and the biorhythm theory could be used to engender a greater mechanical dependency (relying on these patterns to govern behavior), instead of resulting in greater Wakefulness. Biorhythm theory would be helpful in leading into the theory he describes regarding over-all rhythms in our lives; the cyclical movement through certain behavioral "octaves" which tend to continuously degrade unless occasional "shocks" are applied that keep us consciously pushing these cycles to higher levels.
The way biorhythm theory might be useful is in interpreting what we observe about our behaviors. If you can predict based on your biorhythmic observations that the next week is going to be an emotional valley for you, then you should be able to take steps in advance to manage your emotions in a manner more conducive to your goals. Keeping in mind that you need to continue to operate in a real-world environment, this may mean removing or avoiding potential items or issues that you know in the past have triggered a negative emotional response within you, or ideally you would gird yourself emotionally for these potential events. Knowing, for example, that a co-worker's coarse humor is something you might take personally this week that last week you would have laughed-off, you can prepare mentally not to let your emotions overwhelm you.
Biorhythm theory, used in this way, becomes a useful tool for self-observation as long as we also recognize that we govern it, and not the reverse. The Fourth Way suggests that our behaviors can be self-determined, and that this state would be the ideal. A biorhythmic "low" therefore is no excuse for lax behavioral discipline. Peaks and valleys will occur, but our aim should be in turning peaks into plateaus if not steady and continuous inclines.
Awake!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by egodiabolus on Jun 16, 2010 8:17:13 GMT -6
So, the goal in all things is to eliminate the mechanical aspect of it? In order to be "awake," we should be mindful of all choices, all actions, all influences of self? And, with all awareness, be able to self-determine how they will effect our future?
I think if that is the case, you could very easily apply the biorythmic theory to coordinate your self-observations at different levels without becoming too mechanical about relying on them in order to be successful. Thank you for recognizing that.
It would be about self-focus and observation completely, as would any other tool you might use to assist you in observing. I know that using any tool could be a risk, but what would be wrong with utilizing all tools (like meditative music, physical exertion, or Priest Beast's vibrational energy exercises) as a way to help one focus on self-observation? As long as you change it up now and again, wouldn't you want to be as successful at self-observation as you are possibly capable, even if that means you use tools to get you to that point of focus until you reach a level where you no longer need them?
Awake!
AK
Your observations are not only accurate, they point toward something essential to the Work. No one process is the answer. Rather, we must be prepared to explore and utilize as many available tools as possible. Lord Satanis has described it as akin to weight-training. If you work on your biceps with arm-bar curls only, your body will eventually adjust to the exercise and the gains you make through the exercise will be lost.
Probably the best thing to do would be not to simply perform an exercise until you feel you are no longer making gains with it, but to rotate techniques and seek out new ones as often as possible. Have a variety of practices, and study new ones to add to your rotation as old techniques become less effective. This ensures we avoid stagnation and degeneration. The main point is to avoid allowing a process you employ to become a dogmatic or mechanical activity.
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhatgn!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Jun 17, 2010 21:04:59 GMT -6
The word meditate comes from the Latin root meditatum, i.e. to ponder. From this basic understanding of the word, it can be argued that any situation, from sitting in the lotus position to running a marathon, could be conducive to meditation. You could even argue that day-dreaming is a form of meditation (and either of these are probably preferable to the chaos of the office sometimes). However, because all of our centers are interconnected, the condition of one affects the condition of the others.
If we are stressed from work, we can feel our physical body tighten up, possibly become short of breath, and our head starts to pound. We find ourselves feeling constricted without necessarily understanding why. We lash out at people we are close to for no other reason than our emotional center is having trouble communicating with our mental center.
When your mind is cluttered with thoughts and information you are unable to organize through observation of self, your body begins to take action.
Meditation gives you the opportunity to relax body and mind. When we sit down to meditate, we let our bodies know that it is okay to be still and rest. Our mind gives a clear directive to the body, opening backing up clear lines of communication within. By doing so, we create an environment that provides enough space for our mind to settle thoughts, and this allows our body to follow suit.
As we realign our mental and physical centers, we begin to become aware that there are no definable edges to what we are experiencing. We realize that the universe is a vast, open space in which our thoughts can come and go as they please. As we experience our thoughts coming and going, our body begins to respond and relax. We take deeper breaths. And as our minds begin to recognize the open space, our bodies also create on open space allowing for a feeling of lightness. The stress relieves, our muscles loosen up, and we begin to experience a feeling of rightness with the world.
I have meditated in this way for years, sometimes easily acquiring the relaxing state of self-awareness, and other times getting up in a huff because I’m unable to reach a state of openness even when I try. I’ve used meditation to reach a mental center on an emotional experience. Since I’ve been successful at utilizing a meditative state in the past, I would like to incorporate self-observation to the process.
My question is: would this limit my self-observation experience?
Awake!
AK
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Post by natalia666 on Jul 10, 2010 10:59:32 GMT -6
I have begun studying the 7 stages as suggested. It is very well laid it. Again it reminds me of the Kabballah Tree or even the Eight Circuits by Leary.
1-4 is primarily ego-based, which I can understand from a strong LaVeyan/Belial point of view. But I am curious how one can "make antinomian" the latter 5-6-7. Most of it is rather neutral. But also a chunk is rather 'right handed', in the sense of Universal Love, Altruism, Devotion, etc. I am curious what others have discovered about the antinomian aspects of these upper three levels?
awake.
-Natalia
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Post by beastx on Jul 11, 2010 22:58:38 GMT -6
K'ara Kaiul,
I just wanted to point out that all 5 points do have something in common.... They are all types of Considering. A little while back I did a little set of posts on here titled "Doing and Considering", though I didn't elaborate much in terms of examples of considering.
This however, in my eyes. is an unhealthy type of considering on your part. I'd like to address these five giving an alternative option of Considering (by all means not the only) of these.
Where an open mind to the potential of someone's opinion being superior to the current one held by you is a healthy thing. The actual Work of it is the deliberation of that opinion. This should be consciously done. Confidence then comes from the knowledge that it has been put to the scales and it weighs by measure. This renders it correctly functioning and not a flaw.
This is where it begins to get really tricky. This is where I would say developing some form of equation like the one I use would be beneficial. My formula is Cost versus Benefit over Necessity. A relatively quick and easy way to gauge the merit of what you intend. Ask yourself 3 things in this exact order.
1. What do I gain from this? 2. Do I need this? If so how bad? 3. What potential price do I pay for it?
After these have been answered, you can begin to see if the juice is worth the squeeze. If you had the ability to save the world from some global catastrophe, but you would be sentencing 10 million people to death, the juice is worth the squeeze. Whether you should sleep with the neighbor's wife is a whole lot more subtle. Thing about that is the consequences/benefits also become more subtle. She is unhappy with her husband and will do it anyway with someone else or it is just a moment of weakness on her part, make it easy to decide which direction to go.
Point here really is that you need to apply Conscious Considering to it.
Jealousy can be a very positive tool. It is a negative catalyst but an effective one none the less. Those that are jealous will fall into two categories.
1. The green-eyed go monster- This guy drives the envious to push harder in an attempt to gain that which he covets.
2. The lusting lethargic - This guy is NOT going to do shit to go after what he wants. He deserves to sit and wallow in his own armchair ambition.
Either of those two are benefiting from your success positively. Number one will begin striving to attain and number two will hopefully remove his genes from the pool of life by rope,dope, shotgun, or razor. An animal in nature who has no will to struggle, usually dies at birth... It's a shame we seem to be the exception.
Though it isn't how you mean it, I want to point out that you are the one doing the Work not them. Remember man is for the most part asleep at the wheel of life.
Great News... You HAVE been challenging yourself and it has been clear in your recent posts. You've already chosen a fight and are proving you can win. Conflict breeds betterment but it must be consciously absorbed. The universe will fuck with you even more now so... You are going to have to chalk it up as par for the course.
You truly need to like yourself first. I mean really look around you (virtually of course), you are already surrounded with people who like you. I'm willing to bet this has been the case prior to you even arriving here. There is nothing more satisfying than being totally into something and then seeing there are others like you. Here's the best part, they are going to be more inclined to like you whether you are the "good guy" or not. Why? Because you share a common thread. My granddad once told me " Get to doing something, they'll have to like you". Ever seen a construction site where there is one guy actually doing something and 10 guys standing there watching him? That guy working is usually pretty well liked because he is doing the work and they don't have to.
I'm not sure this is what you were looking for... but it's what I got. Hope this helps. It's great to see you making the strides you have!
When the Stars are RIGHT!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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taw
Novitiate
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Post by taw on Jul 12, 2010 14:51:37 GMT -6
This is understandable. You are bringing your past experiences to the table. While it is important to reference past experiences when encountering new ones, an "Awakened" being, in our sense of the term, would have the objectivity to not let past experiences over-ride current perception. We try to perceive things as they are and use past experience to help determine our own actions moving forward. As do I. But there is a basis for comparison. And as a practitioner in Chaos Magic—which correct me if I’m wrong, was also a basis of this religion, says nothing is real and everything is holographic. Therefore, there is no “awake” unless the practitioner says so. But more on that later. But here, Taw, the Fourth Way provides a basic foundation to our philosophy and Work. We also consider ourselves of the Left Hand Path, regardless of arguments against the use of this terminology. Our effort is an effort focused on the self; therefore "Left Handed". Fair enough. Though I think too many people throw around terms like LHP and RHP without knowing the truth behind it. There’s enough evidence by experts—not arm chair internet D&D players turned cultists, to suggest the modern pop culture “dark, satanic” path of LHP was a mistranslation error, and that error has caused a belief system to be based around it. That’s like having an organization that vehemently claims that the world is flat, despite all evidence pointing to the opposite. Granted a new revisionist organization could easily be based upon those precepts and still be valid (if not misguided) as a form of religion or spirituality, and that could easily form its own meme—which the LHP has done. But at its core, it’s faulty and incorrect information that was the catalyst, so the system is inherently flawed at its most basic molecular level despite whatever butterfly hatched from the chrysalis. The problem here appears to be partially a matter of language. In many ways, by participating in the Cult of Cthulhu forum, you have entered into a foreign country. We have our customs, our methods, even a unique look at language. We can respect your ideas and experiences, and we value your input, but ultimately we do so under our terms and through the filter of our ideas. Think of yourself as being in Rome... here it would be wise to do as the Romans do. This does not mean that you should submit to our concepts and ideas, but rather understand our methods and language so that you can join the conversation and have your points taken without the sense of conflict. But keep in mind, this Rome is just a juxtaposition of pre-fabricated, mostly non-unique ideas borrowed from franchised, licensed, trademarked, and copyrighted media that other people created. Remove all of that, and what is left? Sure, there are catch phrases such as “awake”, “slime”, “tentacles” and every shade of green imaginable, but what core substance is there aside from the various posts of the members here? I’ve been trying to dig under the catch phrases of the cult, and I see very little magick or religion, and absolutely no sorcery. I bought the bible, and read Liber A.O., and both were nothing but manifestos and thoughts, but nothing concrete and nothing that establishes the basis for anything organized. Furthermore, when I first came here a year ago, I asked for rites, spells, and passages, and I received nothing but a rather telling excuse to discover things on my own or “awake”, yet it was always based on something generic and gossamer, nothing that was written down pact. The problem is, there are ideas spread and tangents of discussion spoken here—some good, some bad, but there is no core philosophy spelled out on paper that defines anything PAST the manifesto stage. Why? Because there is seemingly nothing there! Yes, there were some drawings in the bible and some terms in A.O., but no one’s ever gone back to those. Yes, there were some rambling radio shows and Youtube videos and a “ritual” where green slime was dumped on a pregnant woman, but those were all random, spur of the moment postings that anyone could do with no more substance behind it than whatever preparatory acts went in before the video was shot. On Key 64's old site, it was said that this cult is more related to a Live Action Roll Playing game for Call of Cthulhu, than anything related to a real cult. Maybe that’s true, given nothing happens outside of the internet. What kind of message does that send when nothing is done offline or in-person? I’m not interested in the ego boosting, geek-speak, or the sales pitch. Been there, done that. I want to taste the meat of this beast, not just nip at the skin. No one here will ask you to embrace the Work, or even the Fourth Way. No one here will demand that you consider yourself of the Left Hand Path. Simply understand that this is what we do, and you have chosen to come to us and engage us. Unless I am mistaken, we did not seek you out. And to be fair, I’m an not trying to change minds, sway people to my side, or anything like that. I have no side. I also did not seek you out. My boyfriend is currently a member on this site, and by default, I came here along with him because he’s probably the biggest Lovecraft fan there is, and through him, I got into HPL. We try to maintain an open and inviting forum, but we do have our own methods and there are limits to the liberties that can be taken by those who still count themselves outside of our circle. The veiled threats of limiting liberties is a bit much, given how much some people here griped about this very issue when they were on other sites both spamming and trying to promote this cult. This also tells me you are not confident in your ability to properly explain things, or list categorically what this cult means except in generic terms. Can you debate me or rebuttal things without falling back to “We’re LHP. Take it or leave it.”? Furthermore, I find it ironic, given the recent complaints that people are not participating enough, there is low site traffic, and unless people step up and participate, the ad-free aspect of the site will be removed. I’ve been trying to give you food for thought and avenues to explain the merits of this site (because I want to understand things more than the superficial spin) with the discourse of debate and comparison, but it seems you are afraid of my challenges and/or questions. You should have your doctrine so down and so well established that you can discredit or debate all day long, but you seemingly can’t. How can you possibly ever expect to influence anything in the mainstream if you can’t even nail down your core philosophy without the caveat of using other’s works or words for you? It makes no sense to enter another's house and expect them to capitulate to your methods, or even your sensibilities. I fully agree. As I stated earlier, I’m not excepting any capitulation. But it was you who invited us here being a public forum, not vice versa. I get the mission statement, but again, what’s behind that mission statement? I’d at least expect my host to be able to back up their core beliefs in ways more substantial than what has currently been written. I’d also expect my host to at least be civil and be able to “agree to disagree”, instead of threatening to take the ball away. I mean really, if you can’t sell your religion without getting upset, how do you expect to convey your message to the rest of the world? That statement cuts both ways. But, again, we are here in the Cult of Cthulhu Forum, not there in the Taw Forum. And I never said it was. Please don’t put words in my mouth. I’m simply asking the same questions you probably did when you stopped believing in the religions of your parents or grandparents. But you seem to be falling into the trap most self-appointed, self-absorbed fan-groups do—they stagnate with unfiltered and institutionalized ideas, and they never grow beyond their websites because they can’t infuse themselves with new ideas, or even consider the possibility that maybe there’s more out there than what they think they know. And once people stop seeing anything new, they’ll leave. Our stupid political parties are a perfect example. Not that I’m anything special, but you don’t seem to be able to think beyond what you’ve already said. I question everything and look for the common ground within. I absolutely agree, but then again, you would never find me in one of their churches trying to explain how I disagree with the nuances of their philosophy or the interpretation of the language they choose to use. If I wandered into a church mistakenly thinking it was something else, I probably wouldn't stick around. I would know that I do not "subscribe to... (the) Philosophy, nor do I take stock in the... path." Since I have no common ground with these people, and no interest in establishing a common ground, a dialogue with them would be meaningless. Then with all due respect, this tells me you are intellectually dishonest and have stopped learning. How in the world could you possibly claim your way is the correct way when you don’t even know what your competition says? Kenneth Grant and Phil Hine work with Lovecraftian magick. They have for decades. Why is this system here better, when they have tens of thousands of followers instead of the handful here? I can easily spout that I have no common ground with 75% of society, and I do not subscribe to any laws I disagree with. I can even use my background in Chaos Magick to claim everything is holographic, and I can disbelieve at will. But you know what? Despite my claims that I know best and “I Am The Way” (John 14:6), that won’t stop the State of Michigan from arresting me if I don’t pay my taxes. I believe that we are in agreement here as well. The Fourth Way is not accepted whole cloth by the Cult of Cthulhu. We have an appreciation for some of its ideas, methods, and language, but we have our own thing. This is the thing that we teach here. If this were a class on oil-painting and a new student walked into the class and wanted to discuss why oil-painting is a flawed media and how we should consider instead weaving as a medium while the rest of the students were discussing oil-painting technique, I would at the very least question the motives of the interloper (like why did she sign up for an oil-painting class?). Again, despite the student's, or even visiting professor's, preference for weaving, she would need to accept at least partially the language and methodology of the class in order to meaningfully participate in it. But what is it do you teach? Do you have anything new or profound, or do you just want us to read other people’s books? That is great, and again, we appreciate your views. But, here, we have our own methods, and we do consider ourselves of the Left Hand Path. If, despite your difference of opinion in these regards you feel that you can still participate meaningfully in this forum, and if you can respect our choosing to focus on our Work, consider ourselves of the Left Hand Path, and will view your input through that filter, then I look forward to many meaningful conversations with you. Your 3WD had strict parameters regarding the discussion of belief and magic. We are probably not nearly as strict, but this is not a free-for-all. We have our own methods, and our own language. You may consider yourself "awakened", and I am confident that you have had both considerable and eye-opening experiences. Here, though, "Awakened" means having an objective presence of mind that sees through the filters of subjective perception, such as the events of the past. By our standards, you have not "awakened", though you may have moments of lucidity far more frequently than others. This is not a criticism, I am also not "awakened", though I strive for awareness and lucidity as often as possible. This something eerily and sadly reminiscent of my old 3DW, and the height of arrogance on your part. Do you really think any serious practitioner would ever subscribe to that self-indulgent ego drivel? By what authority do you convey being “awake?” Do you go to cult school and get 145 credits to get a BA in Cult Management? Or do you have a license or a notary stamp? Who actually conveys that authority? Here’s a clue for you: all of this is pretend in the greater consciousness. Titles, accolades, and all of various masks we wear are just illusions that get us through the day and mean nothing to the rest of the world at whole. As Crowley once said, magick is mostly hypothesis, hyperbole, and theory. It’s only when we get tangible results or spiritual enlightnement when we know it’s working. But someone claiming they know who is "awake" or "not awake" with no prior history except post counts on a website mean very little in the broader context of the magickal world where most people interact personally in groups, groves, or covens. If our methods are too dogmatic, our perspectives too limited, or you feel under-valued, then I hope you find what you are looking for elsewhere. It’s not that it’s too dogmatic, it’s just there isn’t enough original dogma. It’s like you want the LHP and satanism angle but you also want to spice it up with RPGs, cartoons, and poker. That fits in fine with Chaos Magick, but not so much as a broader religion when others only focus on the HPL aspect, and don't care about cartoons, cards, miniatures, or dice. I am looking forward to you sticking around; you no doubt have experiences that, if you are willing to start as a "noob" and demonstrate them to us, will prove enlightening and beneficial to everyone here. But see, I’m not a noob. I won’t want to toot my own horn, but I’ve studied under some big names. This is pretty small fry stuff here. So that begs the question, why am I here? Because, like I said, I find some things interesting, but I need more info than just spin and fluff. And let’s look at it from the average practitioner’s perspective looking in: there’s a ridiculously undeniable aspect of this cult that lack the credibility other organizations have. It would be like me calling myself “Barbie Rollerblade Hermine Granger” after the things I liked, proclaiming myself the leader of the Cult of Edward, and claiming the Twilight Saga is a real vampire cult, and that Stephanie Meyer wasn’t the real creator, but I was, and that ancient vampire gods from Mars were channeling through me, but only I knew about this and no one else could see my proof - almost like it was taken from Joseph Smith’s playbook. Then I’d sprinkle in other authors I like: Cat Yronwode, J.K Rowling, and Anne McCaffrey. Then I’d say that this cult was based on Dragons of Pern mythology, but I wouldn’t have to explain what that meant, because you are asleep and don’t get it. But only I am awake, so only I would. Then I’d launch a website and see who all come in to check me out. That sounds absolutely preposterous, but that’s exactly what we have here! Clearly you can see there are glaring credibility issues at stake even if some of the off-shoot information is legitimate. I want to know if there is something more to it behind the scenes, or if this cult is just based off of one person’s wish-fulfillment of combining all of his likes into one singular aspect. Having spent time studying under some big names with real groups of people in real temples with real rituals and observances, I could even go so far to call this cult it a fraud if it wasn’t for some very cogent and intelligent posts by some members here who are obviously elevated above the standard faire AND have had telling experience in the real occult world. These people are more awake than any pretend Cthulhu monster, and are the only saving grace of this site until something more substantial is presented. Obviously those who practice know who the real people are, and who the hucksters are. So my challenge to you, is, give us something real and substantial that came from your own workings or Mr. Disahw's way, not some easy-to-use prepackaged sentences lazily taken from other sources. If this is a real religion and a real cult, it’s time to put your money where your mouth is by showing us what makes this real. Let’s see some rituals, spells, and observances. Let’s see something specific, not just ambiguous double speak that have different meanings to different people. After all, we don’t need you. But you need us. Not me per se, but followers in general. There are infinite callings out there for us to explore, and if you want membership or participants, then you need to demonstrate this system is valid and organized to pass a interview or litmus test on it's own merit, not by standing on the shoudlers or riding the coattails of others. Can you do this?
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Post by beastx on Jul 27, 2010 19:18:59 GMT -6
I'm evaluating this line of thinking and would like more input on a couple of questions.
How does this correspond with our individual relationship to the present? If we are vigilant about continuing an open relationship to whatever the present provides, would that mean the shock and the mundane would be equal and have equal effects?
Awake!
Apsara Kamalli Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu Apsara Kamalli,
I've got to admit this set of questions has me a bit perplexed. What precisely do you mean as the "present"? I presume that you are referring to the "Now", only this is an illusion of the mind. People often talk about the now in reference to a short span surrounding this very 10 millionth of a second. We must realize that this is really a chaotic mixture of days, hours, minutes, and seconds of the past and the future coming together to support THIS very blink.
Maybe you are referring to THIS very blink. This kind of "Present" is what we struggle to be conscious in through use of The Work.
Or maybe you mean something totally different. I'll try to answer your questions with the first two models and if there is another distinction of the word "present" will of course return to it.
Ouspensky gives us a description of the Law of Octaves (In Search of the Miraculous). Within this description an idea is presented which paints the picture of a spiraling stair case in my mind. It is important to note that preceding this he is talking about Consciousness.
The pattern of the Nine Elements of Consciousness (within the Law of Octaves) goes do-re-mi {shock} fa-so-la-si {shock} do. Now before I get into over complicating my answer to you, those shocks are a cue of sorts. They create shifts within perceived influence. We enter each phase of the ennagram as a neutral force (a sleep), then the first cue is triggered (intentional NLP reference). After that trigger we are now a passive force (aware of our sleep). The final trigger within this Element moves us into an active force (Working/Waking).
I don't know how familiar you are with all of this, but this demonstrates why the mundane and the shock cannot be equal and have equal effects.
The second kind of "Present" is what we achieve when we are Remembering Ourselves and therefore also cannot be derived as equal and have equal effects.
I really hope this helps.
Observe Thyself!!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Jul 27, 2010 20:19:26 GMT -6
I've got to admit this set of questions has me a bit perplexed. What precisely do you mean as the "present"? I presume that you are referring to the "Now", only this is an illusion of the mind. People often talk about the now in reference to a short span surrounding this very 10 millionth of a second. We must realize that this is really a chaotic mixture of days, hours, minutes, and seconds of the past and the future coming together to support THIS very blink.
Maybe you are referring to THIS very blink. This kind of "Present" is what we struggle to be conscious in through use of The Work.
Or maybe you mean something totally different. I'll try to answer your questions with the first two models and if there is another distinction of the word "present" will of course return to it.
Ouspensky gives us a description of the Law of Octaves (In Search of the Miraculous). Within this description an idea is presented which paints the picture of a spiraling stair case in my mind. It is important to note that preceding this he is talking about Consciousness.
The pattern of the Nine Elements of Consciousness (within the Law of Octaves) goes do-re-mi {shock} fa-so-la-si {shock} do. Now before I get into over complicating my answer to you, those shocks are a cue of sorts. They create shifts within perceived influence. We enter each phase of the ennagram as a neutral force (a sleep), then the first cue is triggered (intentional NLP reference). After that trigger we are now a passive force (aware of our sleep). The final trigger within this Element moves us into an active force (Working/Waking).
I don't know how familiar you are with all of this, but this demonstrates why the mundane and the shock cannot be equal and have equal effects.
The second kind of "Present" is what we achieve when we are Remembering Ourselves and therefore also cannot be derived as equal and have equal effects.
I really hope this helps.
Observe Thyself!!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu Let me expand on where I'm coming from. When I say that "the larger forces are easy to see and therefore much more prominent in our thought and attention," I'm speaking for myself only. The larger forces I'm referring to are the social pressures and general consensus reality that are prominent in our every day existence. I recognize that I have been partially engaged in avoiding unconsciously following influences for over 20 years. For example, I have no problem, day in and day out (and it does happen day in and day out) explaining to people that no, I did not watch last night's "So You Think You Can Dance" because I think American television molds you into being something that you are not and attempts to create a false sense of belonging with those around you.
I would say to you that most people are not aware of the larger influences or forces that shape their every day life. You are correct in that most are asleep at the wheel, letting the "collective consciousness" steer what direction they are going to go in. With this being the case, I have an understanding of what is being said.
Going back to my question then, I think that if you are always aware of the now, of the present moment, you must do so with the realization that there is nothing you can do about it. There is no value judgment of the present necessary. You can be ready for the next shock to take you to the next level. If you are mostly asleep at the wheel, your relationship with the present will continuously be accompanied with a sense of lacking, and then you can only prepare for the future.
Awake!
Apsara Kamalli Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by egodiabolus on Jul 30, 2010 10:40:52 GMT -6
My most recent writing project has lead me to review my understanding of influences. Influences are a key part of the Gurdjieff work, representing a large part of the reason why we are generally "asleep" as well as a tool for what I would describe as "traction" for achieving momentum toward our aims.
Everything we experience is the result of influence. The image of a tree that we might see as we walk in a park is the result of the influence of light on the retina of our eye. The influence of gravity keeps us safely in contact with the ground. These are the kinds of influences I would describe as "real" or "natural". They occur in our environment without the intercession of a human mind. They are external influences. "Real" internal influences include the need to breath, the need to eat, the need to rest, etc. There are also "artificial" influences, influences that are the result of the intercession of a human mind. Traditions, morals, education, laws, social-values, trends, politics are all kinds of external artificial influences. Internal artificial influences include non-objective opinions about the self, preconceived value judgments, biases and the like.
If we are unconscious, then these combination of influences push us along, mechanically, and things just happen to us. Our present is the result of the focus of those various influences in our past upon us. Awake or asleep, there is nothing we can do about the present, the "now"; it was already determined by our influences in the past. What we can do is affect the future by being aware of our influences and motivating ourselves toward cultivating those influences that result in a better future or a future more in line with our aims. When we consciously begin choosing certain influences over others, we begin taking a hand in our personal evolution.
This is all common sense, if you think about it.
Where the model gets fuzzy is when Gurdjieff and others begin discussing "other worlds" and the "Ray of Creation". The theory is that we, meaning humanity as a part of the biosphere of the planet, serve as a transitional membrane for influence between the Earth and the Moon, two separate worlds. This is a "bad place to be", because the Moon is subject to the greatest amount of influence and thus suffers under the most restrictions. We are slightly better, the Earth better still, the Sun even better, and so on, working your way up the chain through all stars, all planets, to eventually the ALL or reality which does more to influence than being influenced (least restrictions). This is described as the "Ray of Creation", the emanations or influences from the ALL resulting in our existence and experience.
While this sounds good, this is not common sense. It is an elegant theory that extends the description of influences, but in my mind it has little practical application. Let us say that we are in fact we are bound to the laws and influences of the sum total of planets, stars, and the rest. What does that mean? If you tell me that I am subject to the influences of advertisers, religious institutions, or my girlfriend, that I can relate to and comprehend in my mind. The influence of stars include gravity, wavelengths of energy, and other such natural phenomenon that have minimal measurable impact as well as the perceived influence of position through astronomy which may be purely a matter of human conception regarding the significance of the position of stars. Being a Leo has colored the interactions I have had with some people for whom it was an important factor, but most people have been oblivious.
In my mind, these influences have little relative or practical meaning, unless you want to align yourself with the metaphysical influences of Mars as a symbol, not as a planet, and even that I would suggest is unnecessary and impractical. You can find the aspects of Mars through local influences and symbols, and need not reach as far as the actual planet. I would suggest that this was far less impacting than the socio-economic influences of your city.
I am wondering what other people make of the "Ray of Creation" model, and how they may be applying it in a practical manner. Or, do you lean more toward my stated perspective and deal more with the influences you can actually comprehend and manage in an obvious practical manner?
Awake!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by lucofthelight on Aug 8, 2010 7:47:26 GMT -6
I thought this might be a helpful and interesting topic to bring up in the forum, so that fellow Cultists pursuing the Work might have a better understanding of the four states of consciousness that are outlined in the Fourth Way System.
In my own experience, there has been a tendency to become somewhat confused at times as to which state of consciousness I'm actually experiencing. A recent study session along this line of thinking has helped me to clarify and understand more clearly what I was going through both recently and in the past in relation to different states of consciousness.
If the aim of the Work on oneself is to acquire consciousness then it would be useful to define consciousness from the viewpoint of the System;
Consciousness means 'Awareness'. Thoughts, feelings and bodily sensations are not consciousness. Though consciousness isn't a function, it includes awareness of functions.
Our consciousness is not as static as some would have us believe. During the day it comes and goes in varying degrees and if one makes many efforts over a period of time a qualitative change in ones state of consciousness takes place. According to Ouspensky, "Consciousness can be made continuous and controllable".
Though there are four states of consciousness, we mainly experience the first two;
The first state is what we call sleep. In this state we rest and replenish our energies, and are only aware of fragments of thoughts and feelings. We have no ability to think and act independently, so it is in this state we have the least amount of possibilities available to us.
The second state is experienced when we wake up in the morning. It would appear that we are awake and able to act, but in reality we are only aware of things periodically and are heavily influenced by dreams, personal assumptions, imagination, identification, external stimuli and impressions that push us this or that way. Subjectivity plays a big role in this state of consciousness as we see things the way we like to see them based on our personal biases and learned attitudes. A large portion of time is spent under the hypnotic spell of false imagination and identification with our environment and internal and external impressions.
The third state is self-consciousness or awareness of oneself. In this state we can know the truth about ourselves. The way we are, mainly existing in the first two states, we only experience the third state in very rare flashes. When we experience these rare flashes we seldom appreciate their significance. From our usual second state of consciousness we can recognize these rarer third state experiences as personal memories. This isn't the intellectual memory of facts that recall a persons name or even moving center memory of how to ride a bicycle or throw a ball, but actual moments when we remember ourselves in a specific place at a specific time doing or experiencing a certain thing. It could have been a time in your early teens when experiencing that first rush of love for a girl at a social outing or school camp, or a time at the fair or rock concert. Perhaps it was a moment when a valuable life lesson was learned or a father figure had your back in a hairy situation. It could have been when discovering that profound book of wisdom in that second hand bookstore that blew your mind and you held it in your hands with great reverence. It was in these moments that the third state was created, forged in our personal memories forever.
Memory is created in this third state of consciousness because in that state we remember ourselves. This is what the system calls self remembering. It is quite a shock to begin to realize that we don't remember ourselves and that no one else remembers themselves. Apart from the times that we experience the rare third state, where the hell are we? That is for us to find out, isolate and endeavor to minimize or eradicate through Work on oneself.
The good thing is that just thinking about this fact and noticing that we don't remember ourselves is already a step toward remembering ourselves. One of the main aims of the Work of the Fourth way is to create, cultivate and maintain this third state of consciousness of self remembering.
The fourth state of consciousness is called objective consciousness. The fourth state has had many names in esoteric and occult literature such as the kingdom of god, samadhi, satori, cosmic consciousness, the awakened dragon, christ consciousness,etc. In the fourth state we can know the truth about the external world. A fully Awakened man lives in the present moment, utilizing the third and fourth states of consciousness, with the higher emotional and intellectual centers functioning.
The important thing to understand is that one doesn't just arrive at the fourth state. Just as we reach the third state of consciousness through our efforts from the second state, so it is that to reach the fourth state we must build upon the third state of self remembering.
The great obstacle to the fourth state is that we rarely experience the third state and by beginning to look at our own lives in terms of how often we are actually present and self aware, we should begin to see how much work is really ahead of us. There are many characteristics of the second state that still stand in our way.
Another thing to be mindful of is that when the Fourth Way teachers talk about 'falling asleep', they are referring to falling back into the second state of consciousness after one was either in or close to the third state of self remembering.
Awake!
K'ara Kaiul Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Sept 14, 2010 18:05:42 GMT -6
this is a post i made on the forum a couple years ago. its no longer on them any more. it regards to yog-sothoth mainly and explores some correlations between the mythos and other religions, mostly islam. This is an old post so my opinions or ideas have evolved and changed since then. The following is attempt by me to develop some theories on the possibility and plausibility of the Ancient Ones. I have noticed recently that intricate and on occasion highly coincidental relationship between a few of the A:O, history, the middle east and the development of religion in that area. This came about when I was looking into my own green mirror projection and developing a theistic standpoint on what, could be seen. These ideas will primarily focus on Yog-sothoth, he seemed to be prominent in the research as the highest deity. I know many people have their preferences in prime god, but based on the mythos, relations between history and religions, and the potential lying within the content of many Mythos related texts and ideas I left it at that. I would also like to point out that I am not trying to prove real, the stories of H.P. Lovecraft or the existence of any of the characters. I am merely taking the central content and building on it. The information I have gathered is pretty easily found, and the quotes are probably recognisable to the more attentive.
It came to my attention that the mythos and the more recognised beings within it are centred on the Middle East. This is obvious to most, specifically in name and reference. For example ‘thoth’ is found in the name Yog-sothoth and Azathoth, as well as ‘hotep’ is found in Nyarlathotep. Thoth is an Ancient Egyptian god, and ‘hotep’ is a suffix added to some names occasionally in Ancient Egyptian. However there are many more references and links between the mythos and this geographical area. Abdul Alhazred, is obviously Middle Eastern, he is also noted for worshipping Yog-sothoth. Yog-sothoth is also said to have a worldwide cult centred in Arabia. All so there is the term “yaji ash-shuthath,” meaning, “there is no peace at the gates” in Arabic. We know that there isn’t a worldwide cult of Yog-sothoth in Arabia, at least not anymore. However the Arabic language is very possibly linked to the old ones. Muslims exclaim that the older forms of Arabic are a pure and sacred language. I have been learning Arabic and its sounds and form is very similar to the words of various R’lyehian quotes. In my opinion it would not be a difficult stretch to trick someone it saying they are they are same. I would like to clarify there is no proof of R’lyehian speeches origin being anything more than the authors imagination.
Islam which is the prominent religion of that area today took shape after Muhammad received instruction from Gabriel to write the Koran and form Islam. In my opinion the Koran is the most plausible out of the all the books that are supposedly dedicated to god of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The Koran is basically the exact law of Allah, which is sent to reinstate previous scriptures, and to mend the wrongful manipulation of some, to soot the person’s in charges needs at the time. In more detail the Koran readily allows for the evolution theory, extraterrestrials, and the big bang. I would like to prove the strength of the Koran, because it will help the points later.
First off the evolution theory, which by the bible and torahs standard is pretty much impossible, without seriously compromising the faith. However the Koran does not have such a restrictive and chronological layout for these events. When Allah created the universe he said “be” and then an event which basically is the big bang happened. Islam also says the universe constantly expanding. Then as everything was created or came into being, it all trickled down from there. Unlike the bible which states that God created the world in even days. The Koran doesn’t set it out like that and seeing as Allah is not bound by time because as he created time, a day to him could be millennia in our time. Also there are detailed and very accurate references to child development in the womb, including the recognition of sperm to be the source of impregnation, and the complex development that go on within the womb during the term.
“These facts about human development could not have been known to Muhammad in the seventh century because most of them were not discovered until the twentieth century.” – Keith L. Moore, The Koran and modern science: Correlation Studies, 1990.
The Koran also allows for extraterrestrials. (I had a quote from the Koran for this, but I can’t find it, sorry)
Islam acknowledges that Allah communicates to his prophets through dreams, and prayer like meditation. He also used his angels as mediators or messengers to communicate with us. This is similar to the idea that the Ancient Ones implanted religion into humans through dreams, establishing cults, religions etc. Taking that the older scripts were manipulated and tampered with, as is fact with the newest of versions of the. And that most of the prophets received their visions in vague fashion the interpretation of them is basically wide open to the individual. Considering that the area in which the mythos is primarily based, Africa, Central Asia and to a lesser extent Europe, and the rise of monotheism in that area the relevance of Yog-sothoth being All-in-One could be forefront.
There are countless examples of Yog-sothoth’s power, and his all seeing qualities throughout the mythos. “All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self – not merely a thing of one space-time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole” “Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-sothoth” “Coterminous with all time and space” Yog-sothoth is very similar to the concept of god within Islam. His being permeates through everything. What I’m trying to get is that Yog-sothoth, and the old ones might have been active within that area during humanities development, and the lesser gods manipulated his ends. Islam says that god has instilled in all of a fitra, which guides us to what is morally right. What I’m saying is this fitra is the control the lesser gods place over us. That this is what places us under the instant restriction of human morals, suppressing us into obedient slaves. The power displayed by god in the Holy books, and in various time throughout the world could be the A:O, and then the Lesser Gods blind us into their lies, leaving us as sleeping servitors.
Yog-sothoth is said to have many archetypes, that he is the archetype of all great wizards, thinkers and artists. His most powerful form is trapped outside of our dimensions, but he can manifest physically in some forms. “And Yog-sothoth chanted when in his lesser form. His pallid yellow robes given to him by the servitors of Hastur” “With dagger and wand, the Old One drew back blood and ichor. Unrelenting were his actions, and deranged was his misshapen, many eyed visage” In this sense he can physically take form in this dimension, when he chooses. I also maintain that he is in alliance with humanity, and favours us when the opportunity arises. He is a co creator of Cthulhu along with Nagoob. Yog-sothoth is the gate and the key that allowed the other A:O to enter our existence, who upon arrival went to earth and defeated the Star Shaped old ones. The star shaped old ones at that time used humanity as toys and as a food source. Also the star shaped old ones feared to go beyond ‘the mountains of madness’ because a being similar to Yog-sothoth is there. This could be Yog-sothoth himself however it could also refer to Cthulhu who is similar in goal. The goal of the old ones is said to be to take earth and move it back to some other phase of existence or place from which it had once fallen. This could be in relation to the big band, after which everything separated and spread out. This is plausible since that in relation to Islamic teaching explains how god will one day bring everything back, and remove everything like a table cloth from a table. This ties back to the concept that the A:O interacted with early humans, and the lesser gods, which ‘could’ (it’s a big stretch)be the star shaped old ones fucked it up. The reason I say the star shaped old ones could be the lesser gods, or at least in alliance with them is that they were the manipulative evolvers of human life according to the Mythos. The conflict between the A:O and the Lesser gods is reinforced throughout the mythos.
This bring me to Nyarlathotep, who is suppose to serve the A:O as an avatar on earth, however chooses to folly, and on occasion torment them. Furthermore he is recognised as having a relationship with the star shaped old ones. “Yog-sothoth, save me” Was written by Robert Blake after he saw Nyarlathotep approaching. Which links back to the concept that Yog-sothoth wants to help humans or at least that we can turn to him for help.
I would like to touch on Azathoth for a bit as well. He is said to be a creator god as well, like Yog-sothoth. However he is also attributed as having no conscious. “Allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole” –about Yog-sothoth This could refer to his relationship with Azathoth; it could be something like a Shakti and Shiva relationship from Hinduism. One is absolute knowledge, the other is absolute power together they become the creating force of everything. However they are never spoken of in these terms, nor is there anything to back this up, also Yog-sothoth is usually recognised separately from Azathoth. I look at it that Azathoth IS The Formless black essence or at least the source. He is the centre of the essences origin, which flows from him linking all the A:O together. It has no will, but it’s there, to bind everything together on an astral level, like Qi, or Pranic Energy.
Going back to the ultimate goal of the A:O it is said to be to bring earth back to a level of existence from which it fell. I think this could refer to the concept of the stars being right, and also why earth was chosen to be such a centre of activity. “The Key to the gate, whereby the spheres meet” This is in reference to Yog-sothoth of course. This could refer to Earth (a sphere) meeting with the stars/ planets etc. This could be in a pattern, in which the stars are right, or could refer to the whole dimension crumbling back together, like the end day in the Koran.
I hope this makes sense to some people. The research isn’t complete but there’s no reason not to persist with what I feel is a new and possibly unifying theory for how we, the Cult of Cthulhu, fit in with other religion and how the Mythos could plausibly be in actuality. There’s no reason why this can’t fit, as far as I see. The Koran says that Muhammad will be the last profit spoken to by Allah, which is a nice little way to stop anyone else from having a chance at looking out into the cosmos to see what could wait beyond. In my opinion the only real difference between the profits of these religions is they outwardly said that they are forming a religion on their visions, or building on an existing one. All they have done is go into meditative state or deep prayer or draw from dreams, which isn’t really that different from what H.P. Lovecraft did, or what VS speaks of doing when he comes up with the 9 angles, or Kort’thsalis. You said that it was there, and you were called to it. Like I said there is more research to be done, and please if you have valid contradicting information please contact me. I got my info. from, Wikipedia, Cthulhu Cult, This forum, The Koran, Guide to understanding Islam, the books written by Lovecraft.
What do you think?
Awake!!
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Post by lucofthelight on Sept 30, 2010 4:04:54 GMT -6
Changing the present can alter the past ? Awake. That is correct. Yes, that, but there is more... it is entirely possible to alter the direction, meaning, and substance of the past and future by consciously changing the present. How's that for power? Various Fourth Way Masters have confirmed this. If you can, try to work out just how or why this can be.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
By utilizing the Fourth Way techniques such as Self Observation and Self Remembering, a practitioner can observe his behavior, beliefs, attitudes, body language, emotions and habits and separate himself from them. After a while, as memories of the past present themselves or are purposely reflected upon, the individual can use his/her Fourth Way knowledge, understanding and personal archive of Self Observation experiences and apply them to these personal memories of events and experiences to see what was really happening and see a more objective view of the experience. If one is Awake(self remembering) whilst doing this then it has the potential to change everything past, present and yet to be.
How is this so?
From the viewpoint of being Awake, the present moment is eternal. There is no past or future, there is only now. The future will be now, then and the past was now, then.
If a person Self Remembers he is in the moment and if he is reflecting on particular problems, hang-ups, issues and events from the past and see them for what they really were(from a more objective perspective) in regards to the Fourth Way system, then the event or 'thing' is changed. The conception of the memory has been altered within the mind and memory as we realize that what we thought was a real memory was only fragments of subjectivity and personal biases, with perhaps some sprinklings of objectivity.
For example, if an individual has had an ongoing hang up or issue that stems from a childhood experience of being bullied or teased and that event has shaped the persons self confidence and self worth in their interactions with their peers from that point forward, it is a possibility for that individual to Self Remember and reflect on that memory in the moment and see the bigger picture of that event for what it was. It is possible to step outside the perspective of the victim and see the event as an observer and see the petty and faulty ways of the broken machines involved. Your attitudes and emotions toward the event can shift dramatically, altering what the event means to you now. The event actually occurred differently 'then' than you supposed it did for all these years because you were more than likely experiencing it from the second state of consciousness of waking sleep. By experiencing the event from the third state of Self Remembering and even Objective Consciousness this has altered the past and even the future because the hang up has been viewed by the Observer in the present moment as a second state reactionary perspective of a broken machine entangled within the law of accident. Now that the memory has been viewed from the Self Remembering state the reactionary effect of the event need not reoccur in future interactions with the individuals peers because it is simply 'incorrect', and therefore the future is changed, and the direction, meaning and substance of the event past, present and future has been altered.
As Master Satanis has stated "being present in the moment is an active force that must be willed". An active force causes change.
This is such an interesting topic of discussion and this is only my perspective and attempt at the challenge Master Satanis has put forth. I would love to hear other Cultist's take on how the past and future may be potentially altered by Self Remembering.
By His Loathsome Tentacles!
K'ara Kaiul Esoteric Wizard of the Terrible Darkness Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by nyrlthtp on Sept 30, 2010 17:29:18 GMT -6
Izratan'Sharaz wrote: that which exists endures as it changes. this is the universe. things which exist create influences, and by this means we can determine that they exist on some level. levels of existence are helpfully described by Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus in this thread. "Nature" outside us (trees, clouds, water, etc.), inside us (organs, biological processes, thoughts, etc.), and human minds (facilitating various artificial constructs with exterior repercussion, such as morals, laws, social-values, trends, and politics) are some of the influences which he mentions therein. Gurdjieff talked about all kinds of unusual beings as part of his instruction, including angels, Beelzebub, astronomical bodies as personal entities, and imaginative explanations of relationships with them. Ouspensky described levels of being in his 'Step Diagram', featuring ordinary natural objects and substances, living beings, and then angels and archangels. in both cases they were describing for their purpose some kind of Jewish/Christian cosmological system which does not really apply in the Cult of Cthulhu insofar as Lovecraft's 'Cthulhu mythos' escapes conventional Christian modalities of description and offers instead inimical and/or horrific alternatives. whereas The Work is not paradigm-specific, study under a particular teacher, school, or lineage of mysticism is likely to include an introductory cosmology, metaphysics, epistemology, and morality so as to provide the entry level student the opportunity to orient and provide a platform from which to engage the practice. at times these introductions will be intentionally at odds with the conventional cultural context surrounding the school in question, and this may serve as a hurdle of entry and as a means of deconditioning the student from previous indoctrination (initiating a disillusionment). therefore the questions of the 'reality of existence', the 'reality of the Old Ones', and the 'quaity of the literal reality of the stories about the Old Ones' are the matters to be considered by you in your self-deconstruction and awakening. to ask about them here is to request indirect input on a matter of your direct observation. does it make sense to you that anything real might not exist? is it the case that you have a relationship with the Old Ones? if so, do they seem real to you? if so, what type or category of reality can you observe them as having? your questions by my unindoctrinated evaluation appear to me appropriate and excellently-placed. was Lovecraft labouring under a characterization of these entities as somehow 'secured in a pit', like Christian demons, by some overarching supreme power? did he conceive of these gods (of different categories?!) as themselves working against natural or superordinary barriers or boundaries through which they must find a way to pass (with human subconscious assistance?!) before they could ravage and despoil this pitiful planet? are the exhortations of a horror writer a reliable reference in consideration of whether these entities are worthy of, safe to, and valuable to, worship? perhaps only the High Priest knows for sure.
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Post by nyrlthtp on Oct 1, 2010 10:01:41 GMT -6
...I've always believed that what you believe is your reality. that only accounts for your subjective experience. what facilitates this? is it like 'The Matrix', mediated by superpostured humans or machines keeping you in a battery-tube generator? are there dreaming gods orchestrating it all for your benefit and death a dissolution into sublime laughter at how seriously you took it all? are you (/we) really asleep or not? if so, which is the dream and which real? there are little 1's and 0's breaking into this emulation. the Christian religion relies heavily upon its promising (successive!) of 'The Return of (the) Christ'. dozens of years afterward within the generation of those hearing the stories in the First Century of Anno Domini Our Lord Jesus out to the year 1000 there were contentions about this. it didn't happen. out to 2000, no Jesus. numerous cultists proclaimed 'He'll be here real soon now!' even setting dates for it, which came and went. No Jesus. the miracles it touts are evaporating before our sophisticated recording equipment and not because the technology exudes some magical anti-miracle field! this is because these things WERE FICTIONS. once one understands the extent of the lies being perpetrated, one may thence examine more carefully with the same technical examination turned upon the soul. even Gurdjieff and Ouspensky said that the soul, which they appear to have identified with the self, the I, and the ego, is a shifting set of masks of a whirlwind. is this true? if so, and it takes something called "crystallization" to effect an immortality, then your notions about post-mortem survival are LIKEWISE FICTIONS. upon what are you basing these dreamlike 'people get what they believe after they die' fantasies? why isn't what you are describing a self-delusion? what would, realistically, be the difference between self-delusion and self-emulating "reality"? is it just 'Turtles all the way down'?! some very irrational concentric onion absent any actuality whatever? if so, what makes influences solid? do you really want to? are you prepared for that level of horror? do you know what you're talking about attempting? is belief an advantage where the Old Ones are concerned? the way that you are describing what "is real" (subjective fantasies), these seem to have no actual power or effect at all after death. what makes you think that if someone is the only one to experience these things, that this is something worthwhile, as compared to slipping into the unbalanced insanity described in all of Lovecraft's stories?
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Post by nyrlthtp on Oct 3, 2010 4:18:32 GMT -6
thank you kindly for your compliments, candor, and queries. ...what if the things you say and believe are self delusional, I mean belief is reality is it not ... We as humans create everything even thoughts. I'm sure i don't understand. if what one believes is real, how could anyone be self-delusional?? the very meaning of 'delusion' is demolished by the premise! (well, alright, unless one believed that one was self-delusional, which seems something of a paradox or at least a peculiar conundrum! ) further, writers contributing conventionally to The Work make a clear distinction between subjectivity and the real. part of what 'waking up' means is becoming more aware of what the real (external) world includes, how it functions, and of real values. if High Priest Venger Satanis does agree with you on this point, i hope that he will explain for us how this may be reconciled with 'waking up', why Gurdjieff and Ouspensky talk about 'Subjective man' as if he is awash in self-delusion (asleep), etc., if what one believes is or becomes reality. I cannot as yet fathom the logic. perhaps the word 'believe' has a special relevance which i can only imagine. my assertions about your beliefs being only about subjective experience do not appear delusional, else they are not just self-delusions but extensive within society, born out by science, etc. those pertaining to Christian religion don't seem delusional but they may be in error. there were (and still are, see Benjamin Creme!) people who proclaim themselves Jesus and, by extension in magnanimous imperialism, your god. the bits about The Work i could dig up from books if you really want that, but i am guessing you've probably heard them before. the rest of what i posted were questions you didn't answer. so no, i think while belief is surely real, it is not the extent of what is real. that's what makes science valuable, and enables us to talk via computers. the methodology of scientific experiments excludes the factor of mere belief as a contributor to our knowledge, and technology is a demonstration of knowledge about the real world beyond our beliefs, used to achieve our desires.
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Post by beastx on Oct 8, 2010 16:10:20 GMT -6
"Identification in relation to people takes a special form which is called, in this system, considering. But considering can be of two kinds—when we consider other people's feelings, and when we consider our own. Chiefly we consider our own feelings. We consider mostly in the sense that people somehow do not value us enough or do not think about us enough, or are not careful enough about us. We find many words for that. This is a very important facet of identification and it is very difficult to be free from it; some people are fully in its power. In any case, it is important to observe considering."
- P.D. Ouspensky The Fourth Way
Belief is reality. Reality is a prison. These are phrases passed through the Cult's Ideology. Anyone quickly browsing could easily be misled in their meaning. Anyone more familiar could still equally fall into the trance of this perpetual psychosomatic riddle. Around and around it goes in its vicious loop twisting, flexing, and skewing to fit different fancies. Let us stop for a moment and reflect. What could this really mean? If our belief is our reality and our reality is our prison... Then doesn't this mean our beliefs imprison us? Recently I was re-watching the movie Dogma, when a little inspiration hit me. The character Rufus said,
"He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name: wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it."
The question was then posed by the protagonist Bethany " Having beliefs isn't good? "
What Rufus then said, rang to my ears like the march of a million drummers.
"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea, changing a belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant." This sounded so familiar to me, but why? I remembered the first chapter in The Fourth Way by P.D. Ouspensky. Having read this book a dozen times or so by now, I was a bit surprised it had gotten passed me. After all, anyone even familiar with The Fourth Way is quickly let on to the fact that there IS a special language used to convey ideas.
"BEFORE I BEGIN TO EXPLAIN TO YOU in a general way what this system is about, and to talk about our methods, I want particularly to impress on your minds that the most important ideas and principles of the system do not belong to me. This is chiefly what makes them valuable, because if they belonged to me they would be like all other theories invented by ordinary minds—they would give only a subjective view of things.
-P.D. Ouspensky The Fourth Way" Suddenly I realized throughout everything I had read by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, all things were talked about in Ideas and Principles. Was this really the case, were all things discussed as ideas? Was belief held in the same context as Rufus has described? If it was the case that belief was absent from the teaching's of Gurdjieff, then why?
"There is no question of faith or belief in all this. Quite the opposite, this system teaches people to believe in absolutely nothing. You must verify everything that you see, hear and feel. Only in that way can you come to something."
- P.D. Ouspensky The Fourth Way
"The more a man understands what he is doing, the greater will be the results of his efforts. This is a fundamental principle of the fourth way. The results of work are in proportion to the consciousness of the work. No 'faith' is required on the fourth way; on the contrary, faith of any kind is opposed to the fourth way. On the fourth way a man must satisfy himself of the truth of what he is told. And until he is satisfied he must do nothing."
-G.I. Gurdjieff Quoted by Ouspensky In Search of the Miraculous
After running a word search on the PDF of The Herald of Coming Good by Gurdjieff, my finds were that the word faith was mentioned once within the text and the word belief only with 3 mentions. Amazingly though, the word idea was used 30 times within the 87 page book. The mention of faith was within the context of its "consequences of the action of its impulse on man". The word belief was used all three times in a listing of problems Gurdjieff saw that needed to be struggled against...
"PROBLEM OF THE FIRST SERIES. Mercilessly, without any compromise whatsoever, to extirpate from the mentation and feeling of man the previous, century-rooted views and beliefs about everything existing in the world."
- G.I. Gurdjieff Herald of the Coming Good
In my eyes there is no need to continue examining this, at least externally. I feel it is obvious that G and Ouspensky both thought in a manner similar to the character Rufus. I will however, encourage all who read this post to put it to a harsh lens. Pick it apart until you're absolutely convinced as I am. G would've wanted it this way.
"On the fourth way a man must satisfy himself of the truth of what he is told. And until he is satisfied he must do nothing."
-Gurdjieff
On to answering the question I posed earlier in this post. If it was the case that belief was absent from the teaching's of Gurdjieff, then why? When man holds a belief, he Identifies with it. He becomes too absorbed in it. He becomes too lost in it. Just as Rufus said it anchors you to a point and limits the growth. The ability to form new ideas dies and life becomes stagnant. He begins Internal Considering and starts to feel that people do not give him enough. He feels somehow the world owes him something. All of this Happens because of his faith and beliefs. As a student of The Fourth Way, I'll stick to Ideas. My beliefs will not be my prison.
Awake!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by beastx on Oct 11, 2010 16:48:14 GMT -6
A lot of what Master Beast Xeno said sounds a bit like Empiricism, to me. In our shared 'reality' we have our senses to give us raw (yet incomplete) data. These facts are completely useless by themselves. This can be demonstrated in many optical illusions (the information for a wheel spinning one way is the exact same as it spinning the other way which will make it seem going either way). How we perceive the data makes all the difference. Anyway, in science, you take a bunch of observable facts, form a hypothesis, then test your hypothesis, then form a conclusion. If your process withstands the fires of doubt, then your conclusion will be considered fact. Even scientific fact is still belief. It's belief with a high probability of being correct because it came out of inductive logic. We use these strong beliefs to create technology. However, they are still subject to change since nothing is a 100% guarantee (at least to my knowledge). What's the point of knowledge if you don't do anything with it? To answer High Priest Satanis, ideas are nothing except potential. Unused potential may as well be nothing. With that being said, I think it prudent to expand our knowledge, find the limits, then exploit their weaknesses. If I got anything wrong, please let me know. ia ia Cthulhu fhatgn! I like this ALOT! Seems like you got the Idea. Only you are coming at this from a slightly different function than I was. What you are really talking about here is a lot like what G and O would've called Principles. Those were ideas that were of a mechanical nature and were less often in need of reworking.
The beliefs I was addressing in my in post were ones that couldn't be come to with a logical basis. They are convictions that are held so tightly and without the flexibility of compromise. I have really enjoyed the responses so far on this thread and hope we will continue to offer new lenses from which to examine this.
When the Stars are Right!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by egodiabolus on Oct 12, 2010 14:01:36 GMT -6
... we choose to believe that we are incapable of rising above the restrictions previously set in place. ...we seek out others with the same beliefs so that they can reinforce them and give them a sense of legitimacy. to me this sounds like a very specific employment of belief. When someone comes along and challenges our beliefs, we feel like they just don't understand us or the difficulties we face. Some people need these restrictions in their life in order to feel that their life has value. However, fellow cultists should strive to recognize these limitations and actively remove them from daily living. yes, it does appear that certain types of belief, or the misuse of belief, can yield severe problems. I am not hearing as yet why belief itself must constitute a problem. where employing the metaphor of structure, belief may be a limiting exoskeleton, yes, but it may also become a ladder, or a crowbar against the rest of our limiting beliefs, thus allowing our escape from imprisoning belief structures. learning how to use belief to self-liberate may be an important skill Workers can learn in order to awaken. The problem with belief, as I understand it being addressed by Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, and Master Beast Xeno, is that it is subjective. An "Awakened" awareness is awareness of an objective nature. In other words, beliefs, like theories, have yet to be verified, and only support our conclusions about the nature of our reality.
Belief differs from theory in that while theory suggests that other possibilities exist (and can be tested for), beliefs tend to deny the need to be tested and verified, allowing the believer to rely on a wholly subject concept as their understanding of their reality and struggling to Awakening to the objective truth (if such Awakening is possible within the believer).
It may be a matter of splitting linguistic-hairs, but this is also why Gurdjieff focused so much energy and thought on language. By presenting a theory on the nature of reality, you are stating that you remain open to experimentation, discovery, and the evolution of ideas. By stating that you have a belief, you suggest that your convictions exist without facts to support them, or that facts that refute your belief will be ignored.
Much is made in modern religion about faith and belief. The power of conviction through faith is amazing on many levels, but has also lead to some of the greatest travesties in our existence as a species. We (as a species) continue to debate our beliefs, both with one another and within ourselves. How much more liberating would it be to instead of having a belief in anything to actually have the objective verification of an idea as reality? No "leap of faith" required, no doubting one's own convictions, and no dogmatic principles clung to despite the mounting evidence to the contrary. A person who's commerce is ideas and not beliefs has a greater affinity for personal growth and Awakening.
Beliefs resist change. Ideas promote change. If there need be two camps within the Cult of Cthulhu; one relying on faith and the other relying on ideas, count me among the faithless idealists. Perhaps the two different avenues we travel will arrive at the same destination.
Awake!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by egodiabolus on Oct 12, 2010 19:53:35 GMT -6
Unfortunately, the masses have "objectively verified" the facts or what they understand to be true: ordinary man is already fully conscious and does not need to work on himself, let alone struggle for years in order to Awaken. Of course, we believe otherwise because we have objectively verified things from a different angle.
In my personal experience, I took a leap of faith in Gurdjieff and Ouspensky's System known as The Fourth Way. To give any kind of philosophy, paradigm, or set of techniques a trial run, it probably takes a few months of consistent effort. Without believing in what Gurdjieff and Ouspensky were talking about, I could not have verified my results 4 - 6 months down the road. What's more, I continue to believe that I shall receive more and more benefits as my consciousness expands. I can try to verify the experiences I've read about, but even that requires my belief in something unsubstantiated. That which was promised shall be delivered.
This subject might be one of those things where Cultists will have to agree to disagree. If that's the case, then so be it. I'm happy to acknowledge multiple sides of various issues.
The God we worship is our future selves,
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
Master Satanis I have to agree with you also on belief. I took a leap of faith(belief) on the Power of Now and The Fourth Way, and my belief shall see me thru to where I want to be. I too believe that I will receive more benefits as my consciousness expands.I believe faith in what we are to become is important. I choose to believe! Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn Again, this may be a simple matter of semantics, but Gurdjieff did make an issue of using correct language. What both High Priest Venger As'Nas Satanis and Alba Kalool describes regarding their pursuit of particular information seems to me more like the pursuit of a theory than a matter of faith. Having heard or learned certain things about the resources, you developed a theory about those resources, and tested that theory through study and application.
theory: 1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.
2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3. Mathematics . a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.
4. the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory.
5. a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles.
6. contemplation or speculation.
7. guess or conjecture.
belief:
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.
faith:
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
Based on the definition of the word "belief", if one believed in a book, then one would accept what was written inside it without need to test it. It would be akin to accepting that the world was created in 7 days as per the Bible on faith that the text is correct even when the facts suggest otherwise.
This is by no means a disrespectful discussion, merely a pursuit of the point along the lines of Gurdjieff's theory about language. Words have developed too great a variation in meaning, leading to confusion in trying to communicate an idea. Because the nuance of a word leads to shifts in meaning, we find ourselves using "theory" and "belief" interchangeably, when the words are almost opposite in meaning.
The closest the two words come is if one uses "belief" as a very implausible theory, one that currently defies testing. But, even then, such a point of view would suggest a lack of faith in one's belief. A belief needs no testing... indeed to test a belief could be considered hypocritical, thus the issue of using "belief" when we mean "theory".
Certain beliefs have value; belief in one's spouse, one's parents, one's children, even one's self. Even these beliefs can be tested, and if they are proven misplaced, the shock can be crippling. Belief in a book... look where such a possibility has lead.
I guess the question in my mind now is, does the Cult of Cthulhu pursue a stricter use of language in pursuit of the Work as Gurdjieff described, or is the flexibility of language and the confusion is causes something we should tolerate? There seems to me to be a strength in having a greater dependence on theories and ideas and a minimal reliance on beliefs and faith.
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhatgn!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by egodiabolus on Oct 12, 2010 21:49:15 GMT -6
I believe we already stand apart, in the way that the Cult has it's foundational beliefs of many different aspects. Each one of us here either share the same belief or many different ones, unlike the right hand path religions, who I feel everyone is just following the train to nowhere. So I believe that the CoC as a religion should be an aspect of both idea and belief for us to keep our thoughts and message alive. Awake...... Izratan'Sharaz Herald Of the Old God's. I think I understand you, so let me push the point further. The Cult of Cthulhu is a mixture of ideas and beliefs, but it is the manner that we approach our beliefs that is one of our distinctions. Our beliefs are theories, in that what we have that cannot be proved immediately, we prepare for as a possibility until such time that it can be proved or disproved. Our beliefs are our most radical theories; Universe B, Cthulhu as an actual entity, and so on.
The bulk of our theology is less radical theory; the Work. We cannot call the concepts of the Work "beliefs" because we are each required NOT to follow the work by faith but to test the Work for ourselves, applying it to our lives, and seeking understanding and development through it. In order to Awaken through the Work, one must prove to one's self that it is a viable process. No amount of trust or faith is sufficient, especially when compared to the conviction of personal experience and verification. The lazy path of the Sleeper is to accept on faith what the Awakened struggle to discover for themselves.
Because our philosophy and practice is made up mostly of theory, should our beliefs prove to be incorrect, we lose nothing. Our theory remains sound, even if our beliefs are incorrect. This is because the Cult of Cthulhu has no dogma; if we discover through our exploration that Cthulhu does not exist, in any form, real or imagined, on any plane, Mighty Cthulhu would still remain a symbol representing the concepts expressed by our theories supporting the Work
Our beliefs, our proposed most radical theories, are the rough map giving us an idea of where the tracks lead. Our theories, the Work which can be tested and applied, is the track that we follow. The Cult of Cthulhu is the engine conveying us along that track. If other faiths are on a "train to nowhere", then where is the Cult of Cthulhu going, in your opinion? And, is dogma the fuel of our engine, or intellectual discovery?
Awake!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by egodiabolus on Oct 12, 2010 22:12:46 GMT -6
Should the Cult of Cthulhu be like most other religions... founded on beliefs rather than ideas? Should we not try to stand apart?
Awake!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu I agree, Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus, we do stand apart from other religions. I am still learning about The Cult of Cthulhu which to me, meets and exceeds all know paradigms in modern religions including satanism. Correct me if I am wrong, the fourth way system is a philosophy, which is the study of man and the study of the world, and our cult is a religion that incorporates the teaching of this system, which is part of the whole. We probably walk a fine line between beliefs, principles, and ideas, which gives us that flexibility and advantage to be different, and stand apart. What I love about the fourth way system, nothing is taken on blind faith, but all is verified. This is what brought me to the Cult of Cthulhu, the fourth way in a left hand path tradition, love this, and learning from fellow cultist. Awake! Ieuan Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu As you study the Work (or "The Fourth Way"), you will discover that it is a philosophy... a religion without faith. What is religion? Strip away the mythology and allegory and what is left? Laws, philosophy, tradition, and theory. Laws and traditions can themselves be tested as valuable in some applicable manner or not. A philosophy is simply a manner of understanding. Theory is an expression of proposed concepts which may or may not be true, but are being tested. Life is a Working theory!
Why is it called the "Fourth Way"? It is because it looks at the religions of the Fakirs who torture their bodies, the religions of the Gurus who torture their minds, and the religions of the monks who torture their emotions, all in the pursuit of enlightenment, strips away that which is useless (dogma, tradition, mythology), and combines the bare essence off the other three to arrive at a process that reaches the same end in less time. This is the Work.
The Work does not demand belief or require faith. It requires only the will to test its theories and a struggle to apply those theories to your own life. One of those theories is that we have become too slipshod in our use of language, to the point that a word that once meant something very specific now can mean a range of things, even things that are opposite. Take "idea" and "belief" for example. An idea is rooted in the intellectual, and a belief is rooted in the emotional, yet we use them interchangeably.
"I believe it is 11:00pm."
"I think I am in love."
Why would I "believe" it? Why would I not "think" it? Doesn't "think" more properly describe the mental process in understanding time? Why would I "think" I am in love, when my thinking mind has very little to do with it? Would not my lover rather than I believe it? Yet, to the mundane sleeper, these improper uses of those words are perfectly acceptable and contribute to his or her sleeping state.
What Master Beast Xeno is stating, and I concur, is that we are far better served pursuing theories than following beliefs. This is how we achieve our flexibility, how we remain distinct from other religions. Our beliefs will never trap us, because our dogma does not exist.
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhatgn!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by egodiabolus on Oct 13, 2010 9:01:02 GMT -6
Gurdjieff spoke many languages, but from what I've read he was definitely not a master of English. Ouspensky was, however, and yet the 1920's colored, one might even say distorted, everyone's perspective of words like belief, faith, and even religion. America in the early 20th century was dominated by christianity to the point where one could not hear things like belief, faith, and religion without the mind going straight to the pulpit... the christian pupit.
It also seems reasonable to conclude that whatever outrage and horror H.P. Lovecraft felt about spirituality was chiefly directed at christianity since he also lived in the 1920's. Now, we have a religion devoted to the Great Old Ones, and belief doesn't sound so bad to my ears.
Furthermore, pursuit of a theory will only get one so far, in my estimation. I would probably not have pursued the Fourth Way so arduously if I merely theorized that it could help me heighten awareness. Nor would I have based a religion around it. Belief implies verification to a certain degree. Obviously, we've all heard the phrase "test of faith" or "he had his faith tested". My beliefs and faith have absolutely been tested over the years. I have verified them to be objectively true up to a reasonable point. Everything beyond that is my desire and will to create truth.
"Force without spiritual foundation is doomed to failure". Adolph Hitler said that. While I'm not in the habit of quoting genocidal madmen, I believe that statement is a rare pearl of wisdom. Speaking (tangentially) of genetics, I also believe that there exists a religious gene similar to the idea that there exists a homosexual gene... or particular set of genetic codes. Some of us have it, others don't. That's probably why there are atheists and theists, not only here, but throughout the world.
No matter how much I disbelieved and even detested christianity growing up, I still felt like I was part of something greater in the universe and that a higher force was somehow responsible. Unsubstantiated? Probably, but I'm definitely not alone. Gnosis cannot be verified, no matter how much theorizing and testing is performed.
The Cthulhu Cult shall never die!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
Whether Gurdjieff was a master of English has no relevance to this discussion. The point is that he had a theory about precision in language... that we have trouble understanding one another because our language is subjective and as we become more aware, our language becomes more precise. This would be one of the results of an ever more objective understanding of reality as one proceeds through becoming Man 4-7.
The different languages Gurdjieff discussed related to these different stages. Men 4 have a slightly more precise use of language than men 1-3, Men 5 even more so, and so on. Nuance is still available in language at the various tiers, but the words chosen for the double or triple meanings are selected consciously and not as a result of our lackadaisical sleeping linguistics.
Lovecraft wrote of the horror of other possibilities. Lovecraft himself was a student of science, with a bias against all religion and spirituality. He wrote of potential, the kind of potential that would shattered the mind trained in our limited and mechanical social programming. Madness, or insanity, is literally a way of thinking that is outside the acceptive norms ("sane" having a related root to "sanguine", specifically the blood of royalty, "sane" being whatever was considered normal by royal decree).
I have no doubt that your convictions have been tested, High Priest Venger Satanis, and that you yourself have challenged your own convictions more often and with more fervor than any challenge from outside yourself. A test of convictions is when your theories are challenged by new and contrary evidence. A test of faith is when despite evidence to the contrary you remain steadfast in your convictions. The possibility of the Old Ones actually existing is a matter of faith because no conventional test is available to establish proof or disproof. This is an example of one of our more radical convictions, is it not? Is not theory a fairer description of the majority of our convictions? And, if and when a conventional test establishing the reality of Cthulhu does come into being, would not that conviction move from the realm of spiritual belief to scientific theory?
The foundation of religion is the pursuit of understanding regarding the nature of reality. The oldest religious question is "why". The leaders of religions were the original scientists and philosophers... they had theories. It is only when new theories arose to challenge the old that these leaders, complacent in their authority and power, replaced reason and inquiry with dogma and spirituality. This practice is now so old that most people think that irrational dogma and spirituality are a requirement of religion. In this thread alone, look how many otherwise rational people have made that error.
We should have beliefs; the belief that our understanding will always be incomplete, giving us reason to strive ever forward, the belief that there are no limits, no absolutes. But, should we stop striving for understanding when we define something as a belief, or should our beliefs lead to theories, and theories lead to understanding. Is our spirituality diminished when a conviction is taken out of the light of spiritual adoration and brought into the shadow of concrete veracity?
What is gnosis? Is it becoming like a god? Is that not a theory? How does one define "god"? Is that not a subjective term? Are we not like unto gods to lesser creatures? Is our understanding of the methods of the universe any keener than an ants understanding of the methods of man? When we achieve gnosis, is that the end of our growth, or do the gods themselves have gods?
This thread has appeared to highlight a difference between what I would call "Orthodox" Cult of Cthulhu convictions and "Heretical" Cult of Cthulhu convictions, and the camps seem fairly evenly split. I re-iterate that it really seems to be rooted in an issue of semantics for the most part, with the real arguments between the orthodox belief and the heretical theory coming from those with the strongest grasp of our convictions. Thankfully, this is an institution where heresy is embraced as to add to the flavor of our convictions and challenge our understanding. Again, we appear to be moving toward the same destination along different paths, or perhaps it is merely our understanding of that path that is different, and as we each Awaken to greater objective understanding, the schism will resolve itself.
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhatgn!
Ego Diabolus Heretical Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Oct 17, 2010 10:21:43 GMT -6
This is what I have so far. Some form of this will be included in The Emerald Bible. Comments, questions, and suggestions welcome!
A Matter of Perspective
The Cult of Cthulhu’s paradigm is three fold. We believe a trichotomy will cater to the entire gamut of Cultists.
The Orthodox perspective takes everything in the CoC paradigm as literal fact. The Great Old Ones are actual entities, the Mythos is real, and High Priest Venger As’Nas Satanis is the closest thing earth has at the moment to a living God. The Orthodox perspective is about belief and faith. This model of the world sees things on a grand, epic scale. Men are animal/God hybrids who endeavor to break out of the universe’s prison. Reality is to be molded by belief.
On the opposite side, The Heretical Perspective takes everything in the CoC paradigm with many large grains of salt. They deal in ideas, tested and verified, rather than belief. Those sharing a Heretical perspective form a hypothesis about some aspect of their research and then form a logical conclusion based on the evidence at hand. Such heretics are more likely to see the Great Old Ones as symbols or metaphors and men as rational, highly developed animals struggling against the oppression of ignorance. Reality is defined by what has been accurately observed.
Somewhere in the middle, we have Cultists who form The Bridge Perspective. They view both sides, picking and choosing what seems intuitively true and that which seems incongruous with consensual reality. Those of The Bridge acknowledge what is, or seems real, but also tries to redefine is aesthetically opposed to their reality. They mix subjective and objective reality together in order to create a compromise between what is and what is ideal.
All three of these are vital aspects of the CoC, just as each persuasion in the trichotomy is equally valid. Acknowledging various perspectives allows everyone to be represented without an ideological clash growing out of monolithic paradigm structure.
[/b][/quote] I like where this is going. However, I have to question the Bridge Perspective. I think the Bridge Perspective will happen naturally just by having the interaction of the two groups on a regular basis. I don't understand how you would create an entire "school" based off of the bridging of the two aspects.
The Orthodox paradigm seems to focus more on the Cthulhu aspect of the CoC and the spiritual beliefs associated with it. The Heretical paradigm seems to cater to those pursuing the Work and possibly the application and verification of magic and ritual. Because the two are both ends of the extreme, what really is the point of the middle ground as a completely separate paradigm? Shouldn't the third aspect maybe deal with something completely outside of either? I'm not exactly sure what that would be, but it seems that would bring more perspective to the group than the natural bridging that will automatically happen.
Your thoughts?
When the stars are right!
Apsara Kamalli Esoteric Wizard of Terrible Darkness Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by andrewbloodworth on Oct 18, 2010 7:25:35 GMT -6
It seems that we try so hard to make others realize that they need to be more awake, we might neglect our own being or essence. In the Power of Now it states: Nobody can claim exclusive possession of being.It is your very essence and it is immediately accessible to you as the feeling of your own presence. I know we are all here to help our fellow cultists, but if someone knows that they are enlightened, and as long as they are at peace and happy, isn't that all that matters?
No one can tell you that you are not awakened or not enlightened just because they "think" so. We might get too much into our minds, thus thinking takes control. It also states in the Power of Now that: it is only a small step from the word being to the experience of being.Now I'm not stating that I'm more this or that, but I do know I'm at peace with myself and happy with myself. Now this doesn't mean that I don't need work on this and that, but I know my essence.
I do have much to learn, but I do see some people being naturally more enlightened than others. I think its natural for us in the CoC to work hard in all areas, and maybe its more difficult to reach enlightenment based on what we believe and what the CoC believes in.
I was a Christian about 4 years ago, and I experienced the joy of being enlightened, after I got clean from drugs. It helped me to stop, and I saw everything new, all the trees and all forms of life were amazing to me. The sky, the clouds, everything was beautiful.I've learned from that, and one doesn't have to believe in a Savior to believe in yourself, or to be enlightened. I know some Satanists that will never be that way, and they hold alot of negative stuff inside.
I've been a Satanist most my life and not once did I ever experienced being enlightened, or anything close to that state. So I look at that time of being a Christian as a valuable learning experience, and since then I realize you can be enlightened without being a Christian. I say Christian cause thats the best way to explain it, but I never went to a church, even though I would read the bible every day. A satanist is what I've always been, except for this period of my life.
Also I know alot of Satanists that "think" too much about why this is that way and why this is that. I think we might lose the importance of the state of being/awakening. The true essence. I know I have a ways to go with my self improvement, but wanted to post my feelings and maybe it will help someone or a good debate. Either way it'll be for the greater good.
Awake!
Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
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Post by andrewbloodworth on Oct 22, 2010 3:46:03 GMT -6
The Fourth Way describes a school must come from a higher source. The CoC is a religion, but it's also a school: a Fourth Way school. The CoC does come from a higher source, both from The Fourth Way and from the A:O., so it is a legitimate school for changing ones life for the better. I think the problem arises with Satanism and all the negatively surrounding it, both inside of the religion and outside of the religion. The Fourth Way states we get rid of all negativity, but Satanism does have alot of negativity and often one can get rid of it in ritual. Don't turn the other cheek but smash your enemy, is one of the many faces of negativity in Satanism. I for one can see how one might get confused if he starts with Satanism and then the CoC , and then the Fourth Way. I understand that the CoC deals with all things possible and use what we find useful, but it occurred to me that someone thats new to Satanism and/or new to the Fourth Way might be put off by such opposites. Any thoughts on this? Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn I was thinking along the same lines about negativity, one way that I got around this is, I take all Satanic works with a grain of salt. The way I view such tomes as smash your enemy, do not turn the other cheek is as metaphors. My enemy could be all those negative emotions, so by self observing and not letting these negative emotions come to surface, I am smashing my enemy so to speak, not turning the other cheek but dealing with false self head on. In so called reality if I have a confrontation or predicament with an enemy, why not self remember and stay in the present, would not this be smashing my enemy by removing negativity from me, instead of taking some kind of physical action? Another thought that crossed my mind is scale, everything is done according to scale, if I am reading the fourth way book right, maybe another option to view. All in all whether one was a true LaVeyan Satanist or just another joe, the fourth way tells us we are all machines living in a mechanical world, we are all asleep, food for the universe, until we have the moment that puts us on own way to now! Indeed a very interesting thought, I too would like to hear from other cultist on this. The God you worship is your future self! Remember yourself, for the Emerald Kingdom is at hand! Talek Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu Very well put, I agree with you on this. It dawned on me the other day cause i see alot of new members come on here, and if some are new to Satanism and/or the CoC there might be alittle confusion. I'm not new to Satanism but I am new to the Fourth Way and if it dawns on me while I'm reading the Fourth Way book, then maybe I'm not the only one. Fourth Way does help you adjust certain views and the way you look at things, specialty in Satanism. I just would hate for someone to get too consumed with confusion, and I think this is a valid point. I also have a couple of questions that have popped up since I've been reading the Fourth Way. One in regards to imagination, which we must restrict for self remembering, how would one deal with imagination since its a key ingredient in Satanism and the CoC? Secondly if I have and can do self remembering better and more often than self observation, would that make me more conscious or more awake than lets say, your average Joe? Self-remembering is something I always did, way before I knew what it was. After reading the Power of Now I felt more awake, but the Fourth Way is showing me I need alot of work with self observation. Which I know will make me more conscious. Maybe some new members here don't know the difference yet, I didn't. I just found out reading the Fourth Way. Thoughts? Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
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Post by andrewbloodworth on Oct 26, 2010 5:20:57 GMT -6
Id love to hear from others what occurs in the christian/religious mind during these mock Enlightened/ Enlightening moments in regards to The Fourth Way. What is happening? Its similar to being "saved" & most religions have there own version of it. It is of course chemical. But the area of the mind they access is their own higher power. I wonder what that higher power thinks about the experience?Is it just glad to being spoken to regardless of the intent? And the sensation that runs over the body. That brief relationship & union for maybe the first time. Totally winning over the subjects rational mind. I wonder where pain fits into it. If I remember correctly, it was my own forced, mental agony that produced the effect of being "saved". So thats what I'm getting at. What occurs in that moment of forced awakening? Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
Alright, I'll bite. "Enlightened/Enlightening moments" are points of realizing a 'truth'. This phenomenon happens universally and is not restricted to 'religion' or 'philosophy'. There are a few major problems within the context of 'truths' . A 'truth' is completely subjective, even within instances in which there are logical, statistical, and data supported evidence to suggest otherwise. Because of the subjective nature of 'truth', it can easily be misunderstood or mis-perceived. Man's mind can be fooled and has been fooled time and time again. I believe this is why Gurdjieff spoke not of Enlightenment but of Awakening.
'Truths' are dangerous for one seeking higher being. They trick us into making them too solid, instead of allowing them to be fluid and organic in their expression.
The above short quote says way more than it at first seems to. What are we really talking about when we say "one must know what truth is and what a lie is, and first of all in oneself"? What we see mentioned is Understanding. Understandings are fluid constructs, unlike the stale and stagnant former. Taking on a much more objective role within our minds. Objective because the Force of Reconciliation is put into action.
I do however realize you simply asked what 'occurs'... My simple reply; they Imagine themselves being 'Enlightened' in trade for simply Understanding....
Any questions?
Awake!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of CthulhuVery well put Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh! I'm on the understanding part of in the Fourth Way book, and what you're saying is so very true. Understanding everything about ourselves is the key. I do believe as I progress with the Fourth Way and get better with self remembering thru self observation, I'll come to a better understanding with myself. Only then will I have achieved what we are striving for! Thanks for your input, very helpful. Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
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Post by nyrlthtp on Oct 29, 2010 23:19:03 GMT -6
The problem with belief ... is that it is subjective. ...beliefs, like theories, have yet to be verified, and only support our conclusions about the nature of our reality. ideas contribute to making up theories, and these are not yet supported with apparent confirmations and substantiation conforming to expectation in response to challenges and tests. this is only true of dogmatic beliefs. beliefs can also be founded on scientific rigour. there is no qualitative 'seal' that makes a databit 'objective' excepting that insofar as is known no prejudice or bias influences its conclusion. the problem with this is that it is always insofar as is known. it never concludes. there is never a final authority, even when certitude is pragmatically sound. this is not an argument in favour of nihilism. it is an argument against conclusions as to 'objectivity' (a fallacious ideal without basis in fact). this is a series of semantic equivocations without foundation. there is no such discernment between scientific belief and scientific ideas, for example. it ought not be arrived at through a leap of faith or clung to dogmatically. ideas in general do not of their own feature a change-promotion. some ideas are used to promote a stasis as they are rigidified into a dogma, resistant to change (the idea of the infallibility of the Roman Catholic pontiff for example). your use of the term 'faith' (rather than 'belief') in the above negates both the potential scientific or the pragmatic leverage that may be brought to bear when employing intentional belief (in tentative or more enduring fashion).
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Post by lucofthelight on Oct 30, 2010 16:06:17 GMT -6
Greetings everyone,
There is an interesting attitude expressed by G.I.Gurdjieff via Ouspensky regarding Kundalini in either The Fourth Way or In search of the miraculous. His general opinion seems to be that he opposes the idea of Awakening Kundalini energy and deems it useless and anathema to the Fourth Way System.
This certainly baffled me as it seems many occult systems seem to want to Awaken this Kundalini energy, yet Gurdjieff held it with such disdain.
To get to the point, I recently had the pleasure of watching a youtube video by James Neal Fox and thought he had a really interesting take on it.
Thoughts anyone?
K'ara Kaiul Esoteric Wizard of the Terrible Darkness Cult of Cthulhu Awakening the Kundalini is a very important part of magical progression so i'm wondering what Gurdjieff's problem is. Maybe he couldn't get any results himself! Awake You are right Sarak G'hash, it is a very important part of magical progression in many traditions.
I think the gist of what Neal Fox says in this video is that Gurdjieff may have privately taught his student to be cautious of being lead down the path of Awakening Kundalini in an unholistic way. ie. The focus on just the heart chakra or just the third eye, which could lead to imbalance and could possibly be dangerous for the practitioner, in as far as getting lost within only one aspect, thus becoming detached from Work on all four centres of the System.
If this is the case then he may have steered his students completely away from other schools of thought regarding Kundalini, regarding it as a waste of time, for the potential of losing ones way. In the System the student is encouraged to Work on several lines or centers simultaneously. It's common to see in New Age thought a focus on the heart chakra or other specific chakras over the others and this is perhaps what Gurdjieff was trying to avoid as to not create any more problems for his students.
P.D.Ouspensky put this idea into the public arena when he wrote "In Search of the Miraculous". It may not have been Gurdjieff's intention for this to become public knowledge but of this we cannot be sure.
By his Loathsome Tentacles!
K'ara Kaiul Esoteric Wizard of the Terrible Darkness Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by lucofthelight on Oct 31, 2010 5:48:42 GMT -6
I always found it interesting in life that I would act in a certain way when dealing with certain people, or certain attitudes would be adopted by me in specific situations or surroundings. Sometimes these certain behaviors, attitudes and thought patterns would be in polar opposition to what I thought made up the real me such as in the case of getting caught up in the moment of a festive atmosphere and acting like a total extrovert when my usual state is that of a quiet introvert.
Why is it at certain times an individual will act in a certain way and not another? Is the change in our different behaviors, in reality, controlled by circumstances?
P.D.Ouspensky wrote in The Fourth Way:
This passage made a lot of sense to me. When caught up in a festive and jovial mood, this 'I' is all there is, I don't even know the other guy I usually act as in this moment who is usually reserved and cautious. This reserved and shy 'I' has no will in this situation. These two sides of me don't even know one another.
Let's take a famous individual like Tiger Woods as an example. Although he is a mega-successful pro golfer and one might consider that as his main 'I' or identity, he clearly has moments where other 'I's divert him from his role as sportsman and superstar. There is the 'I' that wants to shag as many women as possible, another 'I' that probably wants to be a good husband and father, another that wants to retreat into Buddhist spirituality, another that wants to hang out with his rich and famous friends and so on.
Which is the real Tiger Woods? Is his internal life of 'I's also determined by his particular set of circumstances? Is he conscious in certain areas of his life and just as asleep as the average Joe in other areas?
We have many competing 'I's taking time in center stage. So much so, that the last one in control is totally forgotten by the new one in control. There is no will of one true controlling 'I' calling the shots and guiding the individual consistently conscious towards his life aims and the most worthy and noble of all life's aims of increasing ones consciousness.
In short, from the view of the System, until our consciousness is developed sufficiently up to a certain level, our 'I's are haphazardly governed by conditions and circumstances.
With the study of our different centers, we begin to get a feel for what is happening within us at various points of our experience.When we continually Self-Observe, we break things down into four centers with the main focus being on the moving, emotional and intellectual.
As we diligently endeavor to lessen the expression of negativity in our lives, beginning with violent or angry outbursts all the way down to mild irritations and annoyances we begin to understand why they do not serve any useful purpose in our lives in most cases. We seek to limit the physical expression by restraint, the emotional by Self Remembering and the intellectual by observing our thoughts in relation to things that happen around us and understand why their expression does not help our cause.
If we can take this first step, we will begin to see the diminishment of many useless 'I's that usually govern our existence. From this point of new found liberation from negativity the real Work can commence. Our magnetic center now has room to form due to the absolving of our usual energy sapping negativity.
Awake!
K'ara Kaiul Esoteric Wizard of the Terrible Darkness Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by lucofthelight on Nov 1, 2010 4:27:11 GMT -6
Thanks for your response Boksmutanis.
I hope you were able to sustain your party 'I' long enough to see your visitors off before your killer 'I' took over.
But on a more contemplative note, what you described of your own personal 'I's is exactly the crux of what I want to explore in this thread.
Why is it that we are so unsure of what 'I' will be in control from one moment to the next?
Sometimes the choice appears to be out of our control. We use one 'I' for one situation when we should perhaps be using another, yet our efforts at changing them are often futile. This can obviously be a source of frustration, especially if you have set aside a certain amount of time for a specific project or task and the 'I' in control is totally incompatible.
An example would be if we are setting time aside to be romantic and sexual with our partner and our controlling 'I' is thinking about the stresses of work or the news segment we saw earlier about the increase of knife related stabbings in our local area. Isn't that a total mood killer! (unless of course you like incorporating sadistic ultra-violence within your sexual activities).
But seriously, to go along with the party scenario again, sometimes I'm in the mood for mingling at one point of a social gathering, going along fine, and at another point the 'I' flips and another takes over that is far more solemn, serious and quiet. Doesn't that suck!?! Even if the desire is there to get back to the party 'I', it isn't so easy.
The key to this dilemma appears to reside in the formation of a magnetic center. One controlling 'I' with it's Will strong enough to bring into manifestation the desired 'I' or 'I's that correspond to specific roles, situations and problems.
This could also become an exploration of lesser magic, because if we are able to choose our 'I's to suit certain events or roles we play in life, I would imagine our lives would be far more fruitful and productive.
Awake!
K'ara Kaiul Esoteric Wizard of the Terrible Darkness Cult of Cthulhu
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