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Post by shawnhartnell on Jan 7, 2015 8:55:54 GMT -6
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Post by shawnhartnell on Jan 7, 2015 8:58:54 GMT -6
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Post by shawnhartnell on Jan 7, 2015 9:00:29 GMT -6
Introduction
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 10:23:53 GMT -6
Magick for dummies !
But just by seeing what they look like and how they stand, I guarantee the geeks on the illustrations will never succeed !
Awake !!
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Post by shawnhartnell on Jan 7, 2015 13:00:01 GMT -6
Is that internal considering?
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Post by ianmoone on Jan 8, 2015 14:36:02 GMT -6
Magick for dummies !
But just by seeing what they look like and how they stand, I guarantee the geeks on the illustrations will never succeed !
Awake !! Given that the "geeks on the illustrations" are themselves illustrations, I guarantee that you are correct, Yrreiht. Those drawings will never succeed at magic, only at illustrating the points made on these pages. These works are simple, beautifully illustrated, and to the point. Some people need things to be complex, and for them these illustrations offer a direction for their research. Others like things simple, and for them these pages are something to think about and maybe even try. It seems to be a bold risk to assume and assure failure based on aesthetic value, and an odd thing for someone striving for awareness to proclaim. I would guarantee that anyone with the will to try, the stamina to endure, and the belief in their actions could succeed using this guide or at anything else. I would avoid, as much as I could, letting my self get in the way and convince me to assume failure in anyone.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Jan 8, 2015 20:50:22 GMT -6
^ Impressive.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 3:52:30 GMT -6
It seems to be a bold risk to assume and assure failure based on aesthetic value, and an odd thing for someone striving for awareness to proclaim. That's absolutely true, I agree.I would guarantee that anyone with the will to try, the stamina to endure, and the belief in their actions could succeed using this guide or at anything else. Again, totally true. I'll even add that this is obvious for everybody who know something about Magick. So, why did I wrote they will fail ?
Please let me elaborate, I will not be long : My definitive opinion is that anybody with just a little of will, stamina and faith will not look like that, and will not stand like that. It's not about different aesthetic. Standing like that means you reject the idea of making efforts.
I hope they will succeed, I wish them so ! but the first step in the way of success is to clean your mind, and once it's clean, you naturally stand right.
Now is the moment of Awakening.
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Post by ianmoone on Jan 9, 2015 11:34:35 GMT -6
I hope they will succeed, I wish them so ! but the first step in the way of success is to clean your mind, and once it's clean, you naturally stand right.
Sorry about the poor use of the quote tool. Still learning my way around here. I guess I am confused on this point. In your opinion, a "clean mind" is expressed by either indulging in or eschewing a certain aesthetic? I would suggest that a "clean mind", which I will assume means a mind that is well-ordered, focused, and clear in its vision, would not be overly concerned about how the body is clothed, and not quick to be distracted by the manner with which another is adorned. Rather, the focus would be on the ideas that the mind expresses, and the merit of that information. You're not guilty of expecting others to conform to your personal ideals, are you, Yrreiht? It would be a shame to discover that someone so highly honored in this forum was so extremely limited in their world-view.
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Post by ianmoone on Jan 9, 2015 12:26:28 GMT -6
It is not my intention to be in conflict with Yrreiht, but this concern about aesthetics being a measure of validity is troublesome to me. I have viewed the Deviantart account of the artist that produced these works, and it is consistent with the body of that person's art. Clearly, the creator of these pages wishes to package the idea in a manner that would be attractive to those who might not otherwise be exposed to them. This forum uses a certain aesthetic for the same purpose; to attract attention so that the ideas expressed here might reach those who otherwise might not be exposed to them. An idea, if it has merit, will remain consistent in its quality whether it is scrawled on a bathroom wall or sung to you as a lullaby by Cthulhu Himself. The aesthetic is meant only to determine the audience being reached. Should the message be limited to only those who have experience with these ideas and an austere mind with which to appreciate them, or should they be packaged so that the unenlightened might be reach and have a further opportunity to awaken to the truth of their value? Is that not a quality that we seek within ourselves; that no matter what our outer appearance of the functions we perform we remain essentially consistent and neither enhanced or diminished by the false values placed on us by others?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 16:40:22 GMT -6
Don't worry and speak freely ! As long as there is no insults, argue with me with no restraint I appreciate the debate. Every time somebody proves me wrong, I take note and improve myself.
I understand very well what you tell me, and that's correct. I am struggling to make me understand, probably I am not clear enough ; remember I'm French, English is not my mother tongue, and I have to find the correct words and expressions, that's not always easy.
I agree that everybody is free to choose his clothes, piercing and tattoo why not, etc. And I appreciate deviant art !
I take an example : let's consider cars. Here is one :
and now, here is another one :
There are some differences, but everybody is free to prefer the first or the second. Here is a third one, and you may still prefer it, that's your choice. I do not consider this one "inferior".
And now, here is the point : the next car IS inferior and that' s NOT a question of point of view, of different aesthetic value : the fourth car will fail and you cannot appreciate it unless you are insane. Hey, it can still be the subject of a good artwork, but it's useless as a car.
I hope my point is clear : no, everything is not equal, not every artwork has the same value, and no, everybody is not equal in front of Magick, and so on. How do I relate the wreckage just above to the geeks on the illustration ? Forget about their clothes and hairs, let's only consider how they stand (I hope this word has the same meanning as in French, I want to say how right, how linear is their vertebral column, and heads up) Do you seriously imagine a sportive, healthy man standing like these geeks ?
Once your mind is "clean", you respect yourself, you want yourself looking good, looking healthy, and so you stand right, because you are proud and ready to work, to fight. If you want to focus on anything, to do anything well, the very first things to do are to clean the workspace and to take a correct posture. And the correct posture in life is : right. That is not a matter of aesthetic value. So in conclusion if you don't have this, you do nothing well.
No matters your style ! I met really "Gothic" people, or covered with tattoos and piercings, and if they stand right and look at you in the eyes when speaking I respect them very much. maybe more, for wearing alternative clothing means a strong will, so if they try Magick I think they will succeed better than ordinary men.
OK, I did my best and cannot be more clear than that. And if you disagree, that's your right...
Awake !!
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Post by ianmoone on Jan 9, 2015 19:07:43 GMT -6
Don't worry and speak freely ! As long as there is no insults, argue with me with no restraint I appreciate the debate. Every time somebody proves me wrong, I take note and improve myself.
I understand very well what you tell me, and that's correct. I am struggling to make me understand, probably I am not clear enough ; remember I'm French, English is not my mother tongue, and I have to find the correct words and expressions, that's not always easy.
I agree that everybody is free to choose his clothes, piercing and tattoo why not, etc. And I appreciate deviant art !
I take an example : let's consider cars. Here is one :
and now, here is another one :
There are some differences, but everybody is free to prefer the first or the second. Here is a third one, and you may still prefer it, that's your choice. I do not consider this one "inferior".
And now, here is the point : the next car IS inferior and that' s NOT a question of point of view, of different aesthetic value : the fourth car will fail and you cannot appreciate it unless you are insane. Hey, it can still be the subject of a good artwork, but it's useless as a car.
I hope my point is clear : no, everything is not equal, not every artwork has the same value, and no, everybody is not equal in front of Magick, and so on. How do I relate the wreckage just above to the geeks on the illustration ? Forget about their clothes and hairs, let's only consider how they stand (I hope this word has the same meanning as in French, I want to say how right, how linear is their vertebral column, and heads up) Do you seriously imagine a sportive, healthy man standing like these geeks ?
Once your mind is "clean", you respect yourself, you want yourself looking good, looking healthy, and so you stand right, because you are proud and ready to work, to fight. If you want to focus on anything, to do anything well, the very first things to do are to clean the workspace and to take a correct posture. And the correct posture in life is : right. That is not a matter of aesthetic value. So in conclusion if you don't have this, you do nothing well.
No matters your style ! I met really "Gothic" people, or covered with tattoos and piercings, and if they stand right and look at you in the eyes when speaking I respect them very much. maybe more, for wearing alternative clothing means a strong will, so if they try Magick I think they will succeed better than ordinary men.
OK, I did my best and cannot be more clear than that. And if you disagree, that's your right...
Awake !! I think I am getting what you are saying. Allow me to take your analogy a step further. Let us say that in each of those four cars, we place a diamond. Each diamond has the exact same size, cut, clarity, and value. Disregard the relative possibility of four completely equal diamonds and just assume that each diamond is exactly the same. The cars represent different body types, while the diamonds are the same idea. While the cars may have different values and appeal to people in different ways, the value of the diamonds placed within each car remain unchanged. This is my point, do not discount the idea based on the manner of its presentation. To be clear, presentation is often important. Each car would appeal to different people, and if the point was to convey our diamonds to another place, the fourth car would be worthless for this purpose, but the diamond's value is not diminished, even in the fourth car. To your point, however, the better the package represents the idea, the more apt people will be to listen to and appreciate the idea itself. No one would think to look for a diamond in the fourth or even third car, while the first two might be seen as the most likely carriers of such a treasure. But, that is the risk of making assumptions based on outward appearance. If we are to seek enlightenment, we cannot assume that it will come to us in a package that we consider to be appropriate. If we knew that one of these four vehicles carried the diamond of awakening, would we risk ignoring the fourth vehicle in our search simply based on its appearance? With people, is it not better to assume that everyone has something of value to offer, and allow for the possibility that even the lowest among us has a lesson to teach, rather than disregard a group of people because their stance or appearance is something we consider unworthy of a vessel of great ideas? If you judge a book based on its cover, you will miss out on many great stories.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Jan 9, 2015 23:47:39 GMT -6
@yrrieht: There is a mind-body connection. Smile, and your mood changes, and if your mood changes, you smile. This applies to posture as well, the military recognize this and the fact one of the clear differences you see in someone who's just gotten out of basic training is how they stand. But let's relate that to the Fourth Way, is studying this useful? I'll leave that to you, but I will say that the more conscious someone is, the more able they are to fake it, for whatever reason they do. "Once your mind is "clean", you respect yourself, you want yourself looking good, looking healthy, and so you stand right, because you are proud and ready to work, to fight. " Who's looking? (Yup, trick question.)
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Post by shawnhartnell on Jan 9, 2015 23:56:42 GMT -6
ianmoone: You make a lot of great points but I'm only going to address what you seem not to know. As you get farther along down the rabid hole, you start to be able to tell the good stuff from the fake stuff. You start to ask yourself, where does this teaching lead? What can I learn from this and does it have a practical path for me to learn it? And so on. Aside from that, it's also like what's said about lying -- that lies have a different 'sound' than the truth. There's a thousand ways this is true: The tonality of the speaker is incongruent with his state, parts of what was spoken is irrelevant to the main point, or it's overcomplicated. You get the gist. Developing this ability is important for finding a real school rather than one of the many fake ones, and it's an ability that starts to form once you have a magnetic center (yup, fourth way term) which you clearly have. Kudos again.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 14:23:03 GMT -6
What do you want exactly ? Ask, and I will help and give as much as I can. (That is not absolute generosity, it's helping me as well to guide others, yeah it's an occult rule.)
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Post by Padowan on Mar 29, 2015 14:33:24 GMT -6
What are my possibilities?
How precise do I need to be?
I have had a lifetime of getting what I want through will, determination and effort but it is time consuming. I need faster results.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Mar 30, 2015 3:47:27 GMT -6
So, are you saying what you want is a shortcut? If so, you'll sabotage yourself. (Not out of laziness, but out of shooting at the wrong target.) Yrreiht was right on the mark by asking "What do you want?" -- defining what you want is the very first step in any magickal work. *Cough* well *cough* formed *cough* outcome *cough*, excuse me. I think I need a drink.
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Post by Padowan on Mar 30, 2015 5:35:31 GMT -6
What's the point of magic, then if I can do it myself.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Mar 30, 2015 5:56:29 GMT -6
"Why should you study and practice Magick? Because you can't help doing it, and you had better do it well than badly." --Aleister Crowley, Magick Without Tears
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Post by Padowan on Mar 30, 2015 6:04:15 GMT -6
Time to purchase a new book.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Mar 30, 2015 6:33:22 GMT -6
Check the dropbox sometime tonight.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Mar 30, 2015 14:01:53 GMT -6
The official Coc definition:
Magic - willed change.
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Post by Padowan on Mar 30, 2015 14:07:22 GMT -6
I must be a walking Talisman then.
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