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Post by sin on Nov 9, 2011 12:05:17 GMT -6
In all my years on the Interwebz, one of the trends I notice which starts about November is an increase in the number of threads by Satanists, which discuss Christmas.
The tone is generally: Lets see how many Satanists still celebrate Christmas, as a Tell. For what purpose? To use it as ammunition against people, so some self-righteous asshat can believe he's the better man. *finger twirl*
This sort of thing cracks me up. Here are some reasons why:
1. Seems pretentious to hate a holiday because its 'expected' of you. Must be in the How to be a Satanist manual. I missed the memo. I am not anti-Christian, nor is it a requisite in my Satanism. The round-and-round of what is and isn't 'Satanic' has been done to death, I won't go into it here. I will say, that constituting another person's Satanism for the sake of validating it, is the most UnSatanic thing I can imagine.
2. U.S. holidays, are pretty much Hallmark, unless of course you come from a tradition which regards holy days, as religious observances. Christmas in the US is pretty much one of the most indulging of all, an excuse to spend too much money, on too much shit, for too many people. I've always regarded the gift-giving, as a time to let the people in your life know, you think about them, they mean something, and a gift is given to mark the day to splurge on them. I try to make as many gifts as I possibly can to make it personal, but a gift-card is just as good to let someone know they were on your NICE list. The Naughties don't get shit. We each act as Santa, making lists and checking them twice. Never mind the food, the seasonal scents and all the fixings. It's not my favorite holiday, in fact its my least favorite but I do my best to make the most of it for my son who enjoys it immensely as his favorite.
3. 'Christmas Trees' were never Christian. It was the Germans that took the Wassailing tradition, into the home and this is why we have the Tree. Wassailing had nothing to do with religion, so to regard it as pagan or Christian is an err. It was a farmer's tradition to sing to the trees for a good harvest. This turned into a social gathering when people sang through the villages, gathered around trees, had cidar and socialized. So when I hear comments from 'Satanists' criticizing people for having a 'Christmas Tree' it makes me laugh. I put up a tree for my kid, and have since he was small. I think the attitude that people have about holidays, especially adults without children, lack rationale. Nothing like alienating your kid, because you have Christian baggage you are still toting around. In addition to having a tree, I also use the Le Befana and Krampus lore - and told these stories to my son to make the season more interesting. I've had to explain the Nativity Scene to him in the past, and why its called 'Christmas' to begin with. To kids, its mostly about the Big Fat Guy, the gifts they get, and seeing family they don't see but a handful of times a year.
La Befana: www.paganspace.net/forum/topics/la-befana-the-christmas-witch
Krampus: www.paganspace.net/forum/topics/who-in-hell-is-krampus
The Occultism of the Nativity Scene: www.paganspace.net/forum/topics/the-occultism-of-the-nativity
There are usually (2) different camps of thought about 'fairy tales':
1. Why lie to your kids, tell them the truth!
2. Using these fairy tales to lie to your kids, is a rite of passage.
I did neither. I tell my son the stories to explain the symbols he sees, the colors, the music, the poly-resin crap on every end cap, in every retail store by the time October comes to a close. I can share the stories, with the truth to back them up. For example, he knows Santa has always been his parents, but he enjoys the story of an Elf King who flies all over the world in one night stashing presents under the tree. It adds some 'magic' to the day, and what is magic after all but the art of directing thought and action.
My son wasn't born in a Christian household. He was actually born to two Satanists. My ex-husband was Theistic, and I am Hermetic. My family is Roman Catholic, his family was a mix of Catholics and Espiscopaleans. ALL of our family members were well aware we are Satanists. It was never an issue. It is not an issue today. Any one who knows me, knows I incorporate Catholic symbolism into my paradigm, so not only does it work - it works well.
This year will be my son's 16th Christmas. Our tree is usually covered with stuff we like, I have all my death and dismemberment, my son has his Knights and collection of ornaments he's made for me since he was in preschool.
While I identify as pagan, YULE seems like more of a solar event to me, than it does a holiday. I get Yule cards and gifts from my pagan friends and Christmas/Birthday gifts from the motley crew of people I know. My birthday is on 1/3 so its usually Christamas, New Years and my Birthday rolled into one. Hell, I even organize a Yule card exchange on Paganspace and have for 4 years now.
See: www.paganspace.net/forum/topics/the-yule-tree-card-exchange
Any excuse to eat and make merry. I probably celebrate more holidays than most people as a Roman Recon. Sometimes I open my door to people I know and do group rituals, and activities. I'm sure many of you are familiar with my Lupercalia sock puppet show. It's all in good fun.
See my group: www.paganspace.net/group/italianamericanpagans
So what do you think? What are your thoughts about Christmas and hating it, just because you identify as a 'Satanist', pagan, occultist, cultist, etc.
Seems to lack logic and rationale to me. If you have a genuine dislike for the holiday and with good reason - fine. Joining a merry band camp, because you think that is what is expected of you to receive approval from your peer group? Seems self-sacrificing and based in a lack of self-awareness if you ask me.
Thoughts?
CS
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Post by wren on Nov 9, 2011 13:02:56 GMT -6
Christmas hasn't been a magical holiday since I was about eight. One of my older friends revealed the idea of "Santa Parents" and my family never seemed to be able to put the enough effort into making it special. We were too unstable and my mother was always on something. I'd always placed more emphasis on Halloween because it was the most fun to do as a kid. There weren't any ridiculous religious scenes my grandparents forced us to do, and they couldn't disappoint me by not getting me what I want. But I've never hated Christmas, it just wasn't something we placed in high value.
When I first read the Satanic Bible, I did start to hate everything "Christian," even so much as refusing to do the Pledge of Allegiance because of the word "God". I am glad now that I've squashed the 'I' that liked to do that, because it made me look like a total jackass. I would guess that many Satanists are still like that, just hating anything with the name of Christianity on it (even if it has much more to it). On another note, I have to say how surprised I was at hearing your approach to Christmas. I'd never thought of telling the stories, and then explaining all the symbolism and reasons behind it. It sounds like the best approach I've heard and it still keeps a magical taste in the holiday, which is more important than getting that brand new IPod/Cellphone/Whatever-The-Hell-Kids-Want-This-Year.
Awake!
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Post by sin on Nov 9, 2011 14:24:56 GMT -6
Thanks for your input.
Yes, and for me that's a Tell. The new Satanists tend to wear their noob buttons loud and proud, not to say that some of the old guard aren't conscious of their hatred towards Abrahamic faiths, for whatever reasons they feel justified.
When you have children, all sorts of things come up that you may not have considered. When my son was an infant, the hallmark holidays were always more important to my ex-husband's family, than they ever were to me (Christmas, Easter, St Patty's Day, Thanksgiving...shit like that). And, I've known them since I was a child - so its not as if any of this is a big shocker to them. They were always aware I was a Satanist, I talked to his mother about it all the time - and she comes to me FIRST, when trying to interpret the Bible for herself - I think that's awesome. My mother-in-law is probably the closest thing I've ever had to a real mother. We've been divorced for over 14 years, but I'm still very close to her. So, that said - when we discussed *how* we were going to handle things like the holidays and all that traditional stuff like the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, etc. It was pretty much all left to me, and how I'd like to handle it with my son. When my son was old enough to really understand things, I also took him on field trips to different places in which the holidays were observed. Whether religiously, or 'spiritually' as people like to refer to them in alternative religions. He was pretty much exposed to it all, and he did have a strong belief in Santa when he was very small. Not because he was indoctrinated by his parents, but I think the strongest influence was his peers. I mean, we are talking kindergartners all giddy with excitement about a magic elf sneaking in to leave gifts! What's not to be excited about? He always knew I was Santa or his father was Santa - it didn't mean much, he chose to believe. When the magic feeling wore off, he stopped choosing it. Same applies to any of the imaginary stuff he embraced as a smaller kid, as a teenager he shows a genuine appreciation for me having shared all the stories and symbolism, he finds himself explaining it to his friends. It makes him feel smart!
The Roman holidays I observe, he digs them. He has a strong navigation towards history like I do - go figure He doesn't always join in, he's content to pat his eccentric mother on the head and tell me to go have fun playing with my friends.
haha
CS
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xoc
Novitiate
Antgo-gnostic
Posts: 18
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Post by xoc on Nov 9, 2011 16:52:51 GMT -6
When you talk about Satanists hating on Xmas it reminds me of this: I'm surprised the dick measuring contests haven't started about whose more "Satanic" which to them means anything against Christianity apparently. My Christian hating phase I went through was mostly when I was newly pagan, ironically not years later when I was a Satanist. Even then I never thought "I hate Christmas because it's Christian", it was "I hate Christmas because all hell breaks lose with my family." When I see this, I just think who cares? It's supposed to be fun.
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Post by sin on Nov 10, 2011 7:19:10 GMT -6
That's why I stated that some people may have very valid reasons for disliking the holiday, I can relate to Christmas = family misery day. I haven't had that in years, since I've distanced myself from 'family'. So, its just a day, I'd skip it all together if it wasn't all around me! haha
I dunno maybe I'm an enigma, I've never had a hatred towards any religion, I find them absolutely fascinating.
I think its self-defeating to ball & chain yourself to ideas that weren't even yours to begin with.
CS
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Post by Zohzst, Ra T’zahr on Nov 10, 2011 7:39:00 GMT -6
I haven't "come out of the closet" to my parents that i'm in a cult or that i follow the left hand path so my family still expects me to think of this as a religous holiday even though with all the mareting and santa, where's the religous aspect in it now? i don't see it as a religous holiday anymore i see it as a time for caring for loved ones just as the message from all those little cartoon christmas movies. i used to watch as a kid.
AWAKE!
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Post by sin on Nov 10, 2011 10:15:54 GMT -6
When my Godfather had his daughter ( I was well into my 20's at this point), he and his family very much treated it as a religious holiday FIRST, and a hallmark holiday second. When his daughter was old enough to understand, the day began with a birthday cake for Jesus (and yes there was a real cake complete with a candle to blow out). Even though my family was well-aware of my point of view, I was expected to participate in this ritual, not for myself, but as a family member, as part of a cohesive unit working together to teach a toddler the values of Christmas. To my family, it is a religious holy-day, regardless of its adopted origins. It wasn't all fire and brimstone, more so the obnoxious way of the Family. Italian-American families are over-bearing pains in the ass - especially from up North.
Even as a grown ass woman with a kid of my own, it did not save me from the flying hand of discipline if I spoke out against an elder in the family, was blasphemous, or used foul language. Yes, even then I could get slapped in the mouth like a 4 year old, and if I protested it would be a family feud. There were roles to consider. So, you pick your battles. I could block the hand that swats me, even slap it back but at what cost? To what end? You just either accept family tradition and protocol, or you remove yourself from it. I chose to remove myself, not just for that reason - but the cancerous dysfunction of it all. It's been well over 10 years. Life couldn't be happier or more simple for me. I recognized early on, that 'family' may be the very influence you must seek and destroy. Emancipation as a minor, didn't seem to be enough. Once I became pregnant and got 'married', there they are again swooping in, like vultures. I had to once again block the disease.
As for what you must endure for the holidays yourself, there is pride and there is counter-productive pride. If it makes things easier, and reduces suffering to do the family thing, why not do it? And I agree its a matter of how you view the holiday. To my old Catholic Nana, its religious. To me, its Hallmark and all in what you make of it. Another opportunity to be creative, artistically expressive, and just have some good old fashioned fun.
CS
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Post by Phillip on Nov 10, 2011 14:10:14 GMT -6
I do not believe that a person who is a Satanist should hate Christmas simply for the sake of appearances. I celebrate all the Holidays with my family as I have my whole life. I am not going to change my approach now that I am a Satanist.
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Post by sin on Nov 10, 2011 14:20:22 GMT -6
What are your thoughts about the number of Satanists that do? I would say the same applies for a hatred towards anything pagan as well.
As much as 'Satanists' claim that they are immune to herd mentality, it seems to be epidemic among them.
To include, but not limited to:
1. Hatred of Abrahamic faiths 2. Hatred towards pagans 3. Hatred of The Temple of Set
Seems to me, may read the SB and completely miss the point of its contents, then join some merry band camp, because of the influences.
CS
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Post by Cain Da'arnesh on Nov 10, 2011 22:57:15 GMT -6
Truth be told, I don't think the real reason to celebrate Christmas has anything to do with the reason we celebrate it. I mean, Christians say that Jesus was born then however recent evidence places (the real) Jesus's birthday at sometime around May. The reason that Christmas was placed at the 25th of December was because there was a popular Roman Pagan holiday that was celebrated at the time and they wanted to stop that shit!
I however don't need Jesus and as such, it's pretty irrelevant. What is relevant to me is the base message of Christmas. For just one day a year, to stop fussing and fighting and just fucking be happy, exchange gifts, and eat a big dinner! For just one day, to relax and stop it all! That is what Christmas means to me...
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Prasinus Ambulans
Novitiate
I walk among his emerald plane, as his herald I spread his word.
Posts: 7
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Post by Prasinus Ambulans on Nov 13, 2011 22:25:51 GMT -6
When I was younger i was rather fond of the holiday. it always brought my rather dysfunctional family together. I was one of those kids raised to believe in all the lore affiliated with it, and for awhile i bought it. The irony of it all is that the household i lived in was anything but christian. Grandfather had a black magic room, and many, if not all, of the residents (friends,family) were masonic or involved in other groups. The holiday was never looked at as a christian celebration. Now that i've moved in with my mother and step father, the feel is much different. Both of them are god fearing, bible preaching zealots. Christmas is now fully affiliated with its origins. Now, I have full resent for the day, as it always includes some sort of religious action. Now my mother and, to some extent, my step father know I'm involved with the CoC, so its their goal to attempt to bring me closer to their "God" each year. Due to this, I've spent the last Christmas (Since ive moved here) and will be spending this one with friends, whom support and some times involve themselves in my CoC "Shenanigans". So my once rather accepting view of the holiday is now resent and hate.
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Post by sin on Nov 14, 2011 7:36:12 GMT -6
. Now that i've moved in with my mother and step father, the feel is much different. Both of them are god fearing, bible preaching zealots. Christmas is now fully affiliated with its origins. Now, I have full resent for the day, as it always includes some sort of religious action. So my once rather accepting view of the holiday is now resent and hate. Do you think you can release the attachment you have to the religious observances and your family associations?
For me, I have no need to resent my grandmother for being religious, or have disdain for what she believes to be true. When she asks me to attend midnight mass with her, she just wants the company. Does she hope that something will move me, so that I'l say to her: Nana I'm a believer too!? Sure, but I have no need to be angry towards her hopes. It would be no different than the hope I have somewhere in the back of my mind, that she knows her beliefs are no more ridiculous than my own.
I haven't been to midnight mass in years, but if she were to visit me for the 'holidays' and ask that I attend with her, I'd be more than happy to go.
The "Christmas story" is just another chapter in a mythos cycle of man's design. The Greatest story ever told, I'd be willing to wager.
You can choose to sit it out, or join in the festivities - in either case, I think if you are choosing, it should be for what is best for you.
Do you feel resentful throughout the day? Towards family and friends? Strangers doing their holiday shopping?
CS
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Post by fritzneess on Dec 2, 2011 9:21:00 GMT -6
In my very early years I believed there was this magical person called Father Christmas, however once I went to school at four and a half this understanding was shattered by the other children. My mother reminded me years later how I cried over my disillusionment. For the two Christmases preceding my “enlightenment” it was so wonderful to “know” the magic was true. With my own children I facilitated the illusion once more and cannot say just when they became disillusioned for they were cunning enough to ensure the magic remained for some years – till the eldest was about eight or nine.
This illusion/disillusion has nothing to do with lies, it is to do with the preservation of magic. The question for every one of you to ask of yourself, is why should I prick the bubble and shatter someone’s illusion of the magic in whatever form they have perceived. Perhaps for some there is the need to inflate their ego through the deflation of that of another. All I can say is, I have never felt such a need. Then again I embrace Cthulhu, so perhaps am way beyond redemption.
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Post by Cain Da'arnesh on Dec 2, 2011 21:44:22 GMT -6
I feel that the "disillusionment" is just a natural fact of life and will occur again and again no matter where you grew up or what you do. I also think that the base message of Christmas is helpful at times. I believe that if your family is super religious and does all this crap for one day a year, why not just go with the flow? I mean, what have you really got to lose anyway? Fuck it my friend! Sit back and enjoy yourself! (And beer or wine might not hurt either! )
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Post by Voraxith on Dec 5, 2011 19:25:51 GMT -6
How the R'lyeh can anyone with an iota of pure simplicity in their heart hate Christmas? I'll never understand that sentiment. Christmas has always been a truly magical time of year for me that brings up intense nostalgia to the point that late Christmas eve when I see all the lights and hear the music, it brings honest-to-Cthulhu tears to my eyes.
Anywho, I think I hear the chanting of a Dragonwall over yonder. See ya!
[glow=red,2,300]Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn![/glow]
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Post by sin on Dec 6, 2011 7:42:27 GMT -6
It really depends on the situation, I'm often accused of this, for the 'way' I approach magic. The way I write and talk about it, it often demystifies how it works and why.
The argument: Why lie to your children? Millions of children are fine without the 'lie' of Santa Claus.
For many, its more-so the preservation of cultural traditions.
CS
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Post by Voraxith on Dec 7, 2011 16:53:22 GMT -6
Merry Christmas, everyone!
[glow=red,2,300]Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn![/glow]
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Post by Ankor on Dec 7, 2011 17:02:10 GMT -6
Most of my family are conservative Christians, with the exception of my immediate family, and are rather intolerant of my ideas about religion. I hates our Christmas dinners, as when they were praying, I would just sit there as they shot scathing glances at me, so I stopped going. I still love giving and receiving gifts, I just don't like the religious aspect of it. I'm still a closet Coc member, they'd probably give me no end of grief if I came out to them about it.
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Post by sin on Dec 8, 2011 9:53:00 GMT -6
I often wonder if its the prayer, or being coerced into doing something you'd really rather not do. I mean, what harm does it really do to bow your head at the dinner table with your family?
Generally speaking, as an occultist what you say and what it means may be two entirely different things.
CS
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Post by Ankor on Dec 8, 2011 14:05:53 GMT -6
True. It's more the fact that they really, really want me to do it, and attempt to force me to do it. It's not a problem with showing respect for their beliefs, it's that they have no respect for mine.
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Post by sin on Dec 8, 2011 17:16:46 GMT -6
Ah, yes. I suspected as much. Family is such a pain in that regard. I'm from East Boston, MA...I'm sure you understand
My father's brother can be pushy sometimes with his 'family tradition' stuff. When my Dad died, he was extremely inconsiderate of my feelings and how I was handling his death. So was my grandmother.
I didn't want the last memory of my father to be his discolored corpse in a box, so I didn't attend the 'viewing', but I did attend the spreading of his ashes into the gulf of Mexico. My grandmother lectured me like a small child in the airport parking lot. I had to reign myself back a lot because I knew she was grieving and just lashing out at me. I did let my feelings about it be known to her and just dropped it. Otherwise, I would have been extremely cruel to her and I was demonstrating my love for her by not making a big issue out of it.
My uncle insisted on me 'reciting' the prayers rather than being content with me standing there holding hands in a circle like some Catholic coven. On the car ride back, he too began with the lecture. This is 2006, I'm a grown ass woman. I wanted to let him have it, because he was a prick to my father when he was alive and I was going to be damned if he was going to get self-righteous on me when my father fully supported me and all of my nuttery.
Later, I just had an adult conversation with them over coffee. People just get emotional and irrational. So. rather than handling the situation in the moment when everyone was blubbering, I decided to handle it later on. It proved to be successful.
Have you tried this approach?
CS
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Post by sin on Dec 9, 2011 9:37:52 GMT -6
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Post by Timotheus Prophet of Darkness on Dec 9, 2011 13:22:37 GMT -6
Ah, yes. I suspected as much. Family is such a pain in that regard. I'm from East Boston, MA...I'm sure you understand
My father's brother can be pushy sometimes with his 'family tradition' stuff. When my Dad died, he was extremely inconsiderate of my feelings and how I was handling his death. So was my grandmother.
I didn't want the last memory of my father to be his discolored corpse in a box, so I didn't attend the 'viewing', but I did attend the spreading of his ashes into the gulf of Mexico. My grandmother lectured me like a small child in the airport parking lot. I had to reign myself back a lot because I knew she was grieving and just lashing out at me. I did let my feelings about it be known to her and just dropped it. Otherwise, I would have been extremely cruel to her and I was demonstrating my love for her by not making a big issue out of it.
My uncle insisted on me 'reciting' the prayers rather than being content with me standing there holding hands in a circle like some Catholic coven. On the car ride back, he too began with the lecture. This is 2006, I'm a grown ass woman. I wanted to let him have it, because he was a prick to my father when he was alive and I was going to be damned if he was going to get self-righteous on me when my father fully supported me and all of my nuttery.
Later, I just had an adult conversation with them over coffee. People just get emotional and irrational. So. rather than handling the situation in the moment when everyone was blubbering, I decided to handle it later on. It proved to be successful.
Have you tried this approach?
CS having lost my father the last week of september I can understand your point of view,but at the same time I can understand your families as well.But I do think their lecturing was the wrong way to handle it.
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Post by sin on Dec 9, 2011 15:07:51 GMT -6
Towards the end of my father's life, he didn't have a lot of 'friends' to show up to the viewing. I made all the phone calls to get in touch with his people, even friends he had not spoken to in years (no easy task let me tell you). So there was a decent body count. My grandmother was embarrassed because I wasn't there. That's what it was really about. When she lamented about it, I told her she could have told anyone who asked the exact reason I wasn't there - they would have understood. I grew up around most of my father's friends, they were 'aunts and uncles' to me. That's how it is in a biker crew. And if anyone had issue with it, they could have called me to voice their feelings about it. No one did.
It was about 'duty' and 'responsibility' to the family. I haven't been part of that for a great number of years.
During the lecture my grandmother screamed: "Does that mean you won't attend my viewing?!" I told her I would not. I would attend her memorial service. She was angry about that. I asked her why, and she said I was breaking custom and that I should be there for the 'family' when they grieve. I reminded her that the 'family' was never there for me, she knows this - so why would I do this? It just makes no sense to me.
CS
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Post by sin on Dec 21, 2011 10:16:16 GMT -6
Saturnalia: www.paganspace.net/group/italianamericanpagans/forum/topics/saturnalia-december-17th-23rd
The Winter Solstice 2011, Thursday 12/22/11
In Ancient Rome the winter (December) solstice festival Saturnalia began on December 17 and lasted for seven days. It was held to honor Saturn, the father of the gods and was characterized by the suspension of discipline and reversal of the usual order. Grudges and quarrels were forgotten while businesses, courts and schools were closed. Wars were interrupted or postponed and slaves were served by their masters. Masquerades often occurred during this time.
It was traditional to offer gifts of imitation fruit (a symbol of fertility), dolls (symbolic of the custom of human sacrifice), and candles (reminiscent of the bonfires traditionally associated with pagan solstice celebrations). A mock king was chosen, usually from a group of slaves or criminals, and although he was permitted to behave in an unrestrained manner for seven days of the festival, he was usually killed at the end. The Saturnalia eventually degenerated into a week-long spree of debauchery and crime – giving rise to the modern use of the tern saturnalia, meaning a period of unrestrained license and revelry.
What happens during Solstice?
The sun is directly overhead on the Tropic of Capricorn in the southern hemisphere during the December solstice. It also marks the longest day of the year in terms of daylight hours for those living south of the equator. Those living or travelling south from the Antarctic Circle towards the South Pole will see the midnight sun during this time of the year.
As the sun passes through Capricornus, it is especially meaningful:
The goat-fish, in this context of the cult paradigm may be useful to you during this time for personal rituals.
By land and by sea - we must not relent!
RISE!
CS Capricorn
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Post by Cain Da'arnesh on Dec 21, 2011 10:27:59 GMT -6
Well I did start meditating and tending to my aura more fully since I'm not sure how to do my daily rites at this point... Will study and learn here in a little while, although I need more time! My guardian assured me that I have all sorts of time to deal with these things. So that's one less headache! (Which is good as I have a few others at his point.)
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Post by Voraxith on Dec 25, 2011 0:25:06 GMT -6
World Goth News posted this on Facebook, and I just thought that I would share it with everyone. Have a very green and slimy Christmas!
[glow=red,2,300]Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn![/glow]
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