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Post by I AM the Way on Sept 16, 2007 14:31:55 GMT -6
shit happens. things break down. people die. we constantly struggle away from pain and towards whatever pleasure is readily available. it's not a great life by any means. we exist as fragments filtered through a hint of dream, and our place is from the toilet to the drain to the sewer. this is the current program.
but there is one thing we have that keeps us on track, makes life a little more tolerable, and gives all of this nonsense meaning. and that is faith. for those of us who have faith, we believe in something even though we can't know for sure it exists... if it's real. no guarantees. no such thing as proof.
this faith allows us to follow our True Will even though it would be far easier to just wallow in despair. for instance, this morning our household awoke to discover that my girlfriend's car had been stolen sometime in the wee hours last night. stolen right from our driveway in a nice, suburban neighborhood. and her purse was inside! it's a hassle, it's a crying shame, it's a setback. definitely. however, she's still here and so am i. we just keep fighting, keep struggling. it's the only way i know how to effectively live.
this Cult that worships Dread Cthulhu... this is what i have to sustain me as i relentlessly reach for my near-unattainable prize. what do you have?
Ia Ia,
Venger As'Nas Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by jameson on Sept 16, 2007 21:56:00 GMT -6
Nice analysis ,tis true faith is far more than a Christian thing(most of whom lack it severely).It does help a lot in magick as well.
What have I faith in?My own embrace of despair as I always do and have done until it ceases to be despair.To enjoy and suffer.And when suffering comes I suffer not in silence,but in loud and terribly dramatic torment until it is suffering no more.
What have I faith in?I have faith that theres some unknown shit out there calling to me.I know not what it calls for,just that I can't shake the veil wrapped around this tiny mind.Nor know I precisely what it or they is.I have faith that even in my contradiction and self dividing moments,my faith which drives me to seek the unknown in the face of uncertainty and absolute terror will unify my fragment and will make us a whole.
Yes faith is important,especially for the Satanist and the Eldritch occultist.Let us not abandon it due to the horrifying stigma of stagnant religions.For to do so would be to accept this world as those babbling hypocrites often do.Let not the disappointments of the cursed past beliefs some of us shared break or poison our view on it.God's will is not faith,its pathetic.MY WILL is faith !
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Post by sin on Feb 18, 2008 14:11:34 GMT -6
I don't know V.S.; it seems to me that 'Faith' goes against the Satanic paradigm. Perhaps "Belief" is a better suited term.
Belief: "confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief."
Faith: "belief that is not based on proof'"
-Dictionary
I guess that is where the dividing line between fantasy and reality get blurred.
If you believe something enough, it doesn't make it so.
So, say you lose a loved one. You can believe that you will see them again some day, based on the absence of knowledge if this is possible.
To have 'faith' in some kind of afterlife, etc. is not based on proof but a belief in such things; which will never be substantiated.
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 19, 2008 12:46:03 GMT -6
i have faith that my toaster will work in the morning. nothing fantasy about that.
if belief is the clay that allows us to shape our future, then faith is where the clay is kept. because i have faith in myself and what i'm doing, i have the power to choose my own beliefs. without a small amount of faith, i would just give up. too many uncertainties.
what's more, beliefs don't need to be substantiated, a person's belief just is. but faith does take cues from the world. belief is all we have to interpret reality. faith is our piecing together of what is true even though there are obscurities.
my faith in a working toaster is predicated on my experiences with the toaster. one day, it might just stop working, but i have faith that it will continue for awhile. on the other hand, i may believe that my toaster has magical powers... but who can absolutely, positively prove that claim one way or another? one can easily prove whether the toaster works or not, but it is impossible to conclusively prove if my toaster has magical powers.
as to life after death. based on the facts, many people have come to understand that individual consciousness may be able to live on after the body's death. that is faith because we have reasoned that it is likely even though there are elements we don't fully understand.
now i could believe that when i die, i'll become a fifty foot platypus on the right hand of Odin. and since beliefs can't be verified, who is to say if i'm right or wrong?
so this is why i believe faith to be based more around facts, and belief to be based more around personal "truth". also, that's why we have the phrase "blind faith".
blind faith: Belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination.
faith: Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
doesn't matter if a person is a Satanist, Cthulhu worshiper, or Buddhist... the outside world needs some kind of framework based on a logic that makes sense to us. human beings try to understand the unknowable. a certain amount of faith is necessary to live in the world.
does that make sense?
Venger As'Nas Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by sin on Feb 19, 2008 14:42:26 GMT -6
I guess the way I see it, you can have a belief that your toaster will work in the morning. Based on what? The fact that it has worked for you every morning in the past. The belief is based on proof.
Faith however is entirely different. If I told you your toaster would work tomorrow, but it hasn't any other morning before - but you just believed me based on faith; you'd wake up awfully disappointed when it doesn't work.
I believe the sun will rise tomorrow. My belief is based on the fact that it has risen every day since my birth and there is empirical evidence to support it.
If you told me the sun would rise tomorrow, but I had never seen a sun rise and there was no evidence to support that it has ever risen in the past, but you told me it would rise. I would not have faith in a sun rise, and I would not believe you.
So I guess that's my perception of faith vs. belief. You can believe in yourself, but faith is something entirely different to me.
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 19, 2008 18:33:53 GMT -6
i think that goes beyond even blind faith... an area called wishful thinking.
i believe in all this Cult of Cthulhu stuff, but it's my faith that this is all leading to something greater which keeps my beliefs alive.
VS
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Post by sin on Feb 20, 2008 10:49:09 GMT -6
i think that goes beyond even blind faith... an area called wishful thinking.
i believe in all this Cult of Cthulhu stuff, but it's my faith that this is all leading to something greater which keeps my beliefs alive.
VS  Also considered 'wishful thinking' |
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 20, 2008 12:28:39 GMT -6
wishful thinking: Interpretation of facts, actions, words, etc., as one would like them to be rather than as they really are; imagining as actual what is not.
if you really can't see a difference between faith and wishful thinking, then i have nothing left to add.
VS
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Post by luxcthonis on Feb 20, 2008 14:21:39 GMT -6
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen."
(yes I replied without reading the thread, how arrogant of me^.^)
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Post by sin on Feb 20, 2008 15:04:03 GMT -6
wishful thinking: Interpretation of facts, actions, words, etc., as one would like them to be rather than as they really are; imagining as actual what is not.
if you really can't see a difference between faith and wishful thinking, then i have nothing left to add.
VS  It's all up for interpretation VS. Some would argue that Faith & Wishful thinking are synonymous. Psychologically, "wishful thinking" is believing something because of a desire—"wish"—that it be true. As a logical fallacy, Wishful Thinking is an argument whose premiss expresses a desire for the conclusion to be true. Wishful thinking usually takes the form of a bias towards the belief, which leads to the overestimating of the weight of evidence in favor of that belief as well as the underestimating of the weight against. "Wishful thinking has been practiced under such names as "positive thinking", "optimism", "visualization", and "faith". Under these names, it has had its distinguished defenders. Defenses of wishful thinking have taken one of the following forms: 1. Moral/Ethical Defenses: Religious faith has frequently been claimed to be either a virtue or a duty. To believe a dogma without evidence, or even despite counter-evidence, is sometimes regarded as more admirable than to believe on good evidence. Unfortunately, this doctrine itself must be taken on faith, as there is no evidence for it! 2. Pragmatic/Prudential Defenses: A pragmatic or prudential defense of wishful thinking is based on the claim that one stands to gain from such belief, and that this is a sufficient reason to believe. William James' famous defense of "the will to believe"—that is, wishful thinking—is of this type. James argued that there can be pragmatic value in believing something by an act of will, when there is insufficient evidence to justify belief or disbelief. If there is pragmatic value in believing a truth, but no evidence for it, then the only way that one can gain that pragmatic value is by a "leap of faith". The thing to notice about the pragmatic/prudential defense is that it does not claim that the statement believed on faith will actually be true, or is even likely to be true. Rather the claim is that one can gain in some way by believing something that may be false for all that. While this may well be true, it is neither a logical nor epistemological defense of wishful thinking, unless—like James—one equates pragmatic value with truth. Suppose I offer a prize of a million dollars to anyone who believes that pigs have wings. There is no doubt that, if you can only force yourself to do so, you stand to gain from believing this. However, the fact that you win a million dollars in no way tends to show that pigs have wings. The trouble with both of these defenses is that they do not show that wishful thinking is ever cogent, instead they support the following types of argument: 1. P is an article of faith. Therefore, I ought, morally, to believe P. 2. I stand to gain from believing P. Hence, I should, prudentially, believe P. But from the conclusions of either of these arguments, it does not follow that P is true, or likely to be so. So, Wishful Thinking is still a fallacy, even if we accept that it is sometimes the virtuous or prudent thing to do." Source: T. Edward Damer, Attacking Faulty Reasoning: A Practical Guide to Fallacy-Free Arguments (Third Edition) (Wadsworth, 1995), pp. 96-98. |
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Post by sin on Feb 20, 2008 15:12:54 GMT -6
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." (yes I replied without reading the thread, how arrogant of me^.^) Hebrews 11:1 KJV), a faith-based quote |
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 20, 2008 16:25:35 GMT -6
yes. that's why i wrote this...
"if you really can't see a difference between faith and wishful thinking, then i have nothing left to add."
i may as well start arguing that faith and fact are synonymous. i've already made a case for the interchangeability of belief and reality.
Venger Satanis
High Priest
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Madguten
Moderator 
CoC forum moderator
Woe, to he who hears the howling
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Post by Madguten on Feb 20, 2008 16:43:55 GMT -6
Here are my 2cents on faith and wishful thinking. ;D
The way i see it......
Faith and wishful thinking are unavoidable parts of the human brain process.
For example, atheism is in itself a faith. A faith in human logic. A rational one but still a faith.
Rationality is good.
And logic is bliss.
But faith and wishful thinking have always been the main driving force of our race. It is what made us what we are now, not logic. Logic is limited, faith is endless One can argue weather or not that is a positive or negative, but DO think that both faith and wishful thinking are simply unavoidable.
The question is how do we deal with it.
Countering it with logic is ONE way of dealing with it.
But there are as many ways as there are humans.
I guess i go from the view that one can NEVER truly KNOW anything, only have faith in it. One can THINK that one knows stuff for a fact, but the way i see it, that is BLIND FAITH in its purest form.
What do i know anyway.
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Post by sin on Feb 21, 2008 13:41:36 GMT -6
I guess, what I'm having a hard time understanding is why you view 'faith' in such a way; when clearly there are differences. If the COC encompasses Satanic idealism; I don't see how 'faith' fits?
"Faith - this is one of the most reviled and shunned words in Satanism. Occasionally a newcomer will say something like "I wish to share my faith with others who are similar...", or, "our faith is strong...", and they will be reprimanded and verbally warned that it is not appropriate to use such a word to describe Satanism. I am not entirely sure why this word in particular, above others, is disliked.
Satanism much of the time does not refer to itself in religious terms. Especially religious terms that imply something illogical like "faith", "spiritual", "holy". It is more likely to describe itself as "unholy" on account of this rejection of superstition and the irrational aspects of other religions.
Religious elements that are kept, including dogmatic and ritualistic elements, are heavily intellectualized and understood to be trickery and psychology, so that most Satanists would not consider any element of the religion to contain anything that is anti-intellectual or submissive to any unknown or inhuman forces.
The word "faith" is perhaps most representative of the intellectually limiting aspects of religion. Where there is "faith", there is less need for intellectualism. And where there is less intellectualism, there is less mental freedom, imagination, and more of an acceptance to follow the herd into whatever pen the leaders of the religion are putting them into.
No, in Satanism there is no "faith", intellectually or emotionally, in the beliefs, in the Church of Satan or its leaders or in anything else. Stupidity is the greatest challenge to the future of mankind, trust must be earned, intellectually accounted for, and be emotionally natural and clear, in short, "faith" is a bad word to use to describe the emotions or beliefs of realists. "
-Vexen Crabtree, 2003
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Madguten
Moderator
CoC forum moderator
Woe, to he who hears the howling
Posts: 2,785
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Post by Madguten on Feb 21, 2008 18:26:20 GMT -6
I think that faith is one of the scapegoats of some of the modern "satanists" because the word represents blindness and sheep mentality to them. Thats fine, but words are just words. The word faith means countless things. It is words that do not really define much. Like the words, "evil" or "good". Their meanings are always pending. Unlike words like; "Ignorant" or "wise", which more kinda points in on what they are about as words. And then there are words like dry or wet, which are right on the nail in describing what they are. I think the real discussion is about definition of words. Faith is a word modern "satanists" find difficult to swallow because it is usually used to describe a fanatic feeling of delusion. But, as the modern realists they are (are they? ;D), they should realize that words are merely words and that words like faith can easily be used even in modern "satanism". The only reason a word like faith could possibly be considered something to be avoided by the mindful rationalists would be because there are always a term that explains the situation more clearly than "faith". Faith is like art. It is beautiful, but it is more or less useless from a rational viewpoint. It is dead in a world that is only rational. With faith dies love. Oh man talk about being melodramatic. (love, thats another one of those words that dont really define anything clearly) Oh man, i just took a suck out of a two week old juice by accident. I feel sick (there should be a vomiting smiley ;D) |
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Post by Yahn'ikthorn on Feb 21, 2008 18:59:46 GMT -6
Like Delenn from Babylon 5 said:
Faith manages.
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 21, 2008 23:50:32 GMT -6
that may be Satanism according to vexen, but that's not my way. i don't believe that faith and Satanism are antithetical. nor do i believe that faith and the Left Hand Path are opposed to each other.
this may spark yet another tangential debate, however, Satanism is a religion!!! and faith is definitely part of every religion.
the Cult of Cthulhu is its own thing and stands on its own feet. whether it encompasses Satanic idealism is up to the individual beholder, i guess.
do most of us rely on unknown data during the course of our day? yes. if you ignore concepts such as probability, risk management, and expected value... how are you going to get anywhere?
VS
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Post by luxcthonis on Feb 22, 2008 0:21:41 GMT -6
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." (yes I replied without reading the thread, how arrogant of me^.^) Hebrews 11:1 KJV), a faith-based quote  Kudos for recognizing it. (I hadn't known the exact reference, and was too slothful to look it up, so I didn't notice at first the occurence of 111 master-number) -H. |
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Post by sin on Feb 22, 2008 9:14:22 GMT -6
I think that faith is one of the scapegoats of some of the modern "satanists" because the word represents blindness and sheep mentality to them. Thats fine, but words are just words. The word faith means countless things. It is words that do not really define much. Like the words, "evil" or "good". Their meanings are always pending. Unlike words like; "Ignorant" or "wise", which more kinda points in on what they are about as words. And then there are words like dry or wet, which are right on the nail in describing what they are. I think the real discussion is about definition of words. Faith is a word modern "satanists" find difficult to swallow because it is usually used to describe a fanatic feeling of delusion. But, as the modern realists they are (are they? ;D), they should realize that words are merely words and that words like faith can easily be used even in modern "satanism". The only reason a word like faith could possibly be considered something to be avoided by the mindful rationalists would be because there are always a term that explains the situation more clearly than "faith". Faith is like art. It is beautiful, but it is more or less useless from a rational viewpoint. It is dead in a world that is only rational. With faith dies love. Oh man talk about being melodramatic. (love, thats another one of those words that dont really define anything clearly) Oh man, i just took a suck out of a two week old juice by accident. I feel sick (there should be a vomiting smiley ;D) It could very well be. I imagine, being logical creatures that one who wants to address the public would understand the nature of words and language; and use appropriately suited words to share thoughts. If an individual wants to re-define a label; that's fine and dandy - provided that new definition is communicated clearly and is understood by the receiver of the information. Let's say in practical application V.S. uses the word 'Faith' in the COC Bible; is this new definition clearly laid out for readers? Words can quickly be misconstrued if the meanings are not clear. |
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 22, 2008 11:03:00 GMT -6
i'm using the standard dictionary definition of faith (see previous post above) not only in Cthulhu Cult but in my everyday parlance as well.
a common anti-christian connotation, however, views the word 'faith' as delusional, illogical, and wishful thinking... even though that's not what faith means. this approach is endemic of "modern Satanism" which may continue to wallow in adolescent reactionaryism until forced to mature and expand its understanding.
everything vaguely christian, even the very idea of religion, cannot be burned away in hopes of being left with only wondrous fruit. yes, right hand path religions are deeply flawed, but that doesn't mean the opposite equals perfection.
VS
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Post by sin on Feb 22, 2008 12:25:07 GMT -6
As am I, Venger:
Dictionary:
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
—Idiom
9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.
I don't think its the Christianized view of 'faith' but 'faith' as a logical fallacy based on the lack of evidence or proof of a thing.
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Post by sin on Feb 22, 2008 12:27:34 GMT -6
that may be Satanism according to vexen, but that's not my way. i don't believe that faith and Satanism are antithetical. nor do i believe that faith and the Left Hand Path are opposed to each other.
this may spark yet another tangential debate, however, Satanism is a religion!!! and faith is definitely part of every religion.
the Cult of Cthulhu is its own thing and stands on its own feet. whether it encompasses Satanic idealism is up to the individual beholder, i guess.
do most of us rely on unknown data during the course of our day? yes. if you ignore concepts such as probability, risk management, and expected value... how are you going to get anywhere?
VS Again, semantics. It's word play. I would say 'belief' fits better than Faith. I would disagree that Satanism is a religion; while most other Satanists would agree. I see it as a philosophical concept vs. a religious one. LaVey himself said that what you hold value in could be considered religion. Like for instance, dance. I love to dance - so I can consider dance my religion. There is no 'faith' in dance; just the emotional attachment, the feels this act invokes in me. |
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Post by sin on Feb 22, 2008 12:28:27 GMT -6
Like Delenn from Babylon 5 said: Faith manages.What does it manage? |
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 22, 2008 14:43:28 GMT -6
a certain amount of information or knowledge is almost always lacking. there's never a fully disclosed, perfect picture or understanding of something. therefore a degree of faith is always needed.
and i think dancing, especially a religion based around dance, does require faith.
i agree.
at this point, i'm not sure if it is faith's semantics or something more fundamental that we are arguing.
Venger Satanis
High Priest
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Post by Yahn'ikthorn on Feb 24, 2008 8:45:44 GMT -6
Itself? Everything?
I can't say I ever really understood the phrase either. I like it nevertheless.
I suppose it means something akin to "if you have enough faith in something, things tend to work out."
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Post by sin on Feb 28, 2008 13:43:45 GMT -6
Itself? Everything? I can't say I ever really understood the phrase either. I like it nevertheless. I suppose it means something akin to "if you have enough faith in something, things tend to work out." I used to watch it, until the storyline got corny. As I recall, this was a theme of sorts - this 'faith manages'. I can't remember the episode, but I'm sure a web search will locate it. Perhaps it will elaborate on the its meaning? |
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Post by Yahn'ikthorn on Feb 28, 2008 15:49:02 GMT -6
I found some blog entry (can't remember the site, was something Christian I think) that mentioned the quote when searching for it a while back, nothing more that would've contained that particular phrase + explanation... I'd guess the faith/religion themes are explored in some fan site / episode guide / book. I think she says "faith manages" in several episodes. Could be wrong though. www.ntua.gr/lurk/lurker.html is a good site for B5 stuff. By the way, I for some reason was not bothered by the corniness that much. Agreed there might be some, but I enjoyed the series till the end. Haven't watched the offshoot series or the movies in a long time, just watched the whole thing in all its glorious 5 seasons a while back... what did you find especially irritating about it? |
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Post by jameson on Mar 8, 2008 19:26:03 GMT -6
I find 7 and 2 and 1 work quite well together.An oath in that which is unproven and a great deal of confidence in it all in one.
Of course at times we can ommit 2 and have 7 & 1 ,an oath in confidence.
Kinda reminds me of the mindset needed for magick to work.
The only thing I have faith in is getting the next big bottle of Bacardi 151.I have absolute confidence in this.It is my obligation to drink and suffer until I die by drinking,thus is my obligation.Alcohol is god,this belief can not be proven by any scientific means,nor can the presence or existence of any god,yet to consume this is for me becoming god.It is against my ethics to not have ethanol in my system at any time.
Wait,thats 1,2,3 ,4 and 7.All summed up by the word faith.I have absolute faith my death will be painful,and I know for a fact I don't care as long as my grave is paved in ethanol.
There is no longer a need for logic or rational thought when something feels so good.Let the brains pleasure systems overtake the agony of over-rationalization.
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Also considered 'wishful thinking'
It's all up for interpretation VS. 
Kudos for recognizing it.