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Post by luxcthonis on Oct 4, 2007 18:18:56 GMT -6
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 4, 2007 21:45:18 GMT -6
i say awesome!
VS
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Post by jasmine on Oct 8, 2007 9:46:09 GMT -6
Wow! I really enjoyed reading that site and it will be affecting me for some time to come. I was aware of Beelzebubs Tales....but this is so much more succinct and easy to follow. It reminds me of some of the subjects that Israel Regardie touched upon in his books. Thank you for the link. It was amazing.
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Post by jasmine on Oct 10, 2007 10:10:41 GMT -6
So....after reading the above site. I decided to go looking around in my magical library and it seemed to me that the pdf that is floating around the internet by P. Hine about group practices in Ego Magic has some pretty similar exercises that have all the religious element removed. I started on the exercises as of 2 days ago and am already experiencing shifts in my perception. I am however really struggling with my ability to be objective and impersonal. It all seems so very personal.....I am confused about how to go about being an impartial observer in my own life. I guess I will keep working on the exercises and see where they take me.
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Post by jasmine on Oct 31, 2007 12:22:52 GMT -6
The exercises are working and meshing quite nicely with the 4th way teachings. They are essentially asking the same questions or very similar ones to what Gurdjeiff is aking you to ask yourself. I am struggling every day to remain conscious and to practice self observation. I am noticing that as I am doing this....some of my friends have begun to take notice and are asking me about just where am I getting these exercises anyway? I just had the 3rd phone call this month from an old member of my magical circle asking me....where is this forum you are talking about and tell me where I can read more about the 4th way. I find it interesting. I wanted to mention that the link posted at the beginning of the thread has been most helpful. Thank you.
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Post by jasmine on Nov 2, 2007 12:13:26 GMT -6
I feel like I am hogging this thread...but I have sooooo many questions right now. They seem to be all going off in my head at once. The one I keep coming back to is this: How does self-remembering relate to the art of achieving gnosis? I find that what I know as gnosis, seems to be the stepping off point for self-remembering. That state of void one has to achieve, stopping all thoughts and feeling ones true self seems so similar yet different from what I am currently learning about the 4th way teachings. Its getting all muddled up in my head. Any ideas?
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 2, 2007 14:03:39 GMT -6
i'm just glad someone is making use of it. for all intents and purposes, i think one can perceive self-remembering and gnosis as interchangeable concepts. basically, they are the same thing. both create an unnatural clarity or still-point which can be used for greater things. you see, Awakening ( or gnosis ) is when you have your computer on and are ready to program... but you haven't changed anything yet except for your being, your self. the individual's Will actually affects the universe, achieving gnosis is just the first step.
everything you can do, you can do better when Awake. and even though self-observation is important in and of itself, it is really only a beginning for other things... creatively changing reality.
and just like gnosis, self-remembering can be acquired in similar ways. doing something new and/or complex physically, mentally, or emotionally. anything that breaks you from routine can aid in Awakening. however, driving home a new way won't wake you up all by itself. as i said, this just helps the process. one must force it to happen because the need is recognized. being Awake is all important.
asleep we can do nothing, asleep we are nothing, alseep our God is powerless.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest[/b][/color]
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Post by amnesiac on Nov 4, 2007 5:04:11 GMT -6
Venger said : "i'm just glad someone is making use of it. for all intents and purposes, i think one can perceive self-remembering and gnosis as interchangeable concepts. basically, they are the same thing. both create an unnatural clarity or still-point which can be used for greater things."
I really like the way this is being said here for I never really realized this at its fullest until now. This still-point or the state of Void (as Jasmine calls it) is what I know by meditating. At first daily things, thoughts, etc pass you by like a film, you watch but do not interact, you release them, after a while this state of Void appears and that's the dreamer state of mind, here you can receive visions and have clarity about things, in this state things are shown to you. I think the effect of this state is the same as in astral traveling, only this way is safer for one stays secure in his or her own body.
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Post by luxcthonis on Nov 4, 2007 18:47:03 GMT -6
I just have to say that I am very glad that the link i posted has been of some use. I was actually wondering if I should be just posting random links here and there, but I suppose whatever it takes to get the seed planted. [Thank you A:O] -H.
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 6, 2007 13:00:07 GMT -6
you're absolutely right! by calling it the same exact thing, i was over-simplifying the connection between Self-Remembering and Gnosis. you put it extremely well. i think gnosis is the more primitive version of Awakening while self-remembering is the advanced technique for those who have transcended mere rationality.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by eratciv on Nov 10, 2007 16:12:03 GMT -6
The book Illusions had an interesting point about Self Remembering, Perhaps the subconscious tells us of our true self through what is called instincts.
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Post by jasmine on Nov 11, 2007 8:38:53 GMT -6
The book Illusions had an interesting point about Self Remembering, Perhaps the subconscious tells us of our true self through what is called instincts. Oh wow, you are so correct! Its been 20 years since I read that book. It was great and it was all about self actualization and throwing off the common perceptions. Well, I guess its time for a re read. One of the things in that book that affected me the most was the tale of the "Crystal Being" it inspired me to run away from home and go hitchiking around the US. OK ok so I interpeted it weirdly but there you have it. For me it was a very freeing and profound book. I want to go back and compare it to what I am getting out of Beelzebubs Tales right now. Thanx.
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Post by jasmine on Dec 18, 2007 11:12:03 GMT -6
I am really having a great amount of personal satisfaction with these philosophies. So many, many things are becoming clear to me. I cannot believe how many patterns of wrong thinking I was creating on a daily basis. I was becoming my own worst enemy. I wanted to touch back upon the gnosis/self-remembering topic as I have indeed been able..with Work to achieve more of these precious moments. In those moments I have been trying to bring forth differing magical idea or observe the actions of the Meta Sigil or some other magical construct. I am seeing and understanding magic on a different level. Its amazing....I am aware that this is just the tip of the iceberg as well. What are any of your thoughts on this?
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Post by Yahn'ikthorn on Dec 18, 2007 11:21:07 GMT -6
Well, you could climb to the top of the tip and take a dive down into the ocean to see the rest. ;D Bah, pointless jokes. Congratulations on your progress. Wrote a kind of poem today about this:
I AM the cruelty of the Buddha I AM the love of the True Christ I AM the unquenchable thirst of Lucifer I AM the secret of Odhinn's eighteenth spell which no man knows I AM the words you must write to understand the futility of words I AM he whose name cannot be uttered I AM the Life in Death and he who stands waiting at the threshold of the Abyss
I walk where the Yin and Yang do not reach And where no God can set his foot Where the Omnipotent One is helpless like a child And silently watch everything that was, is, and will
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Post by luxcthonis on Dec 22, 2007 4:28:34 GMT -6
Great poem Takuan. Sounds like ritual-talk to me;) haha!
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Post by Yahn'ikthorn on Dec 22, 2007 4:32:04 GMT -6
Bah, I'm kind of unsatisfied with it as a poem... I expanded it a lot and added to the fiction section and then I thought it had served its little ritual purpose and deleted it ;D tee hee hee, write yer own ritual poetry, don't use my flawed thoughts until they are perfect! Or do whatever you please...
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 2, 2008 1:43:41 GMT -6
whuuuuuuuuuuuuut im going to be studying the SHIT out of this, along with the actual 4th Way book... that link makes a bit more sense out of the information presented in the book in more detail... makes everything more easily digestible so to speak.
by reading the book and referring to that site, i hope to speed up (or more accurately, enrich) my progress!!!
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 2, 2008 9:29:43 GMT -6
just googling "Fourth Way" will turn up a ton of results, most have good information on the Work.
keep posting questions if you have them, that's the best way to learn.
VS
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Oct 2, 2008 10:16:56 GMT -6
WOW VERY nice! Well, you could climb to the top of the tip and take a dive down into the ocean to see the rest. ;D Bah, pointless jokes. Congratulations on your progress. Wrote a kind of poem today about this: I AM the cruelty of the Buddha I AM the love of the True Christ I AM the unquenchable thirst of Lucifer I AM the secret of Odhinn's eighteenth spell which no man knows I AM the words you must write to understand the futility of words I AM he whose name cannot be uttered I AM the Life in Death and he who stands waiting at the threshold of the Abyss
I walk where the Yin and Yang do not reach And where no God can set his foot Where the Omnipotent One is helpless like a child And silently watch everything that was, is, and will
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 2, 2008 14:26:32 GMT -6
just googling "Fourth Way" will turn up a ton of results, most have good information on the Work.
keep posting questions if you have them, that's the best way to learn.
VS yeah HP, im having some problems with this link now. how can i interpret this information in a LHP/CoC perspective? its talking about christ and self-transcendent "Goodness" etc... whereas dont you champion the 4th Way as a means to become supremely aware and conscious in order to have more control over our selves/environment/destiny/will/magick (and on and on etc)? is this what the founders of the 4th way teaching meant to have done with their philosophy? are we "corrupting" (in their eyes) the legacy of their work? i could use a bit of clarification in this matter, if you dont mind. thank you as always, HP... im learning more and more as the minutes tick by!!! IA! IA!
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 2, 2008 15:53:30 GMT -6
some of the "esoteric christianity" coloring of the 4th way needs to be examined closely. i try to read between the lines, getting to the essence of a concept rather than just going along with all the christian window dressing which gets added on top.
if you have a specific example, quote it and i'll see if i can illuminate the passage and what it might mean.
i don't think Ouspensky and Gurdjieff would see us as corruptors; however, many on and off line 4th way schools do see us as an abomination. anytime that such things as the Mythos, Satanism, or black magic are mentioned in connection with the 4th way, there is shouting and the waving of hands. this teaching is strict and comprehensive, yet it is not dogmatic. there's a fine line, and many people cannot see the difference. to take the 4th way as dogma is to rob it of it's flexibility and interpretive qualities. at the same time, one cannot ignore core principles such as not expressing negativity or not identifying.
what i'm trying to say, and what Ouspensky and Gurdjieff have implied, is that you should make The Work your own. live it.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 2, 2008 19:12:32 GMT -6
ok, ok... thats what i thought. just so much christian "window dressing" on that site im having a time sifting through it finding the naked core of truth expressed therein.
i love how flexible the 4th way is. it is such a beautiful teaching... i mean all you have to do is practice it and apply it in your life. i see no reason why it cant be equally beneficial for the christian, the satanist, the RHPer, us Cultists... its just a philosophy on what steps you need to take to be here, AWAKE, and utilizing your maximum consciousness, our full inner potential.
whatever lol... how dare anyone try and tell us the correct "moral" application of the 4th way... what a crock hahaha!
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 2, 2008 19:42:50 GMT -6
"That is not to say that your psychology or spiritual disposition has no effect on your physical body, but it is a serious mistake to believe that any particular path will result in perfect life in the physical world because: if physical world gain is any part of your motivation for being on a spiritual path, you will develop nothing. The angle of approach is wrong and not accessible to the level of spirit. It makes your efforts conditional and self-interested, which is antithetical to transcendence.
This great lie—that followers of any particular teaching will have earthly superiority and powers including health and wealth—seduces people away from the possibility of real spiritual transformation since real spiritual transformation is dependent upon the purity of your motives and means moving from egocentric psychology to self-transcendent psychology: evolution. "
that's taken from the link... but aren't we doing this to get what we want, be who we want to be, be masters of our environment and destiny???
and here this is telling me if im doing that then im wrong, sadly mistaken...
can you shed some light on this please, HP?? is this link just taking the RHP deny-yourself-of-the-world-and-embrace-the-white-light shit way too far or what?
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 3, 2008 10:38:49 GMT -6
yes, that quote is horribly misguided. it does seem to come from a right hand path, deny your desires, you'll be happier in heaven when it will really matter perspective. i understand the need to promote non-material development, but the white lighters love to overcompensate by treating the physical world as inconsequential.
the 4th way is amoral. once Awake, you can do whatever you want with it. and why stop at just one thing? if you had a swiss army knife, would you use it for only one or two applications? no, you'd make the most use out of it that was possible.
VS
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 3, 2008 13:35:28 GMT -6
so i can disregard all this "the 4th way must only rightfully be used for good and self-denial and any other application of the teaching is wrong and immoral and missing the point" crap?
i dont know if its just that this site has an agenda or what...
but interestingly enough ive read elsewhere that gurdjieff stated that a lot of his teaching was based on ancient egyptian mysteries, that egypt was "christian" thousands of years before christ.
which is funny because im reading right now that egyptian religion was the main source the christians drew from during the creation of the christ myth.
the parallels between horus and jesus are many and exact. virgin birth, born on dec 25th, died, was reborn, battled the god of the desert (the god of evil, Set= Satan), had twelve disciples... all this occurred in egyptian myth, and elsewhere.
just funnt though.... calling ancient egypt "christian" in its teaching thousands of years before "christ" is invented...
but back to the 4th way, i will disregard all the moralistic propoganda as im reading this. im totally not getting any agenda from the book thus far... like at all
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 3, 2008 15:25:43 GMT -6
yes, discard all the moralistic aspects of ordinary christianity. when i read about the re-interpretation of the gospels as Jesus teaching his disciples about the 4th way, it made me understand how something of substance could be dragged through the mud by a million human beings in order to become the piece of refuse that is the conventional christian doctrine.
VS
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Oct 3, 2008 17:04:44 GMT -6
You are right, the Original Gnostic Christianity is ALOT different! What people follow now isnt really even Christianity, it is a device invented to control the masses. yes, discard all the moralistic aspects of ordinary christianity. when i read about the re-interpretation of the gospels as Jesus teaching his disciples about the 4th way, it made me understand how something of substance could be dragged through the mud by a million human beings in order to become the piece of refuse that is the conventional christian doctrine.
VS
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