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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 21, 2006 16:08:20 GMT -6
ok, i'll try and answer all your posts.
the Anton Szandor LaVey i refer to is the founder of the Church of Satan, he has always been a great influence on me.
you are right, the 4th way is a teaching separate from a dark side. it also has nothing to do with a light side, religion, god, science, good, evil, or anything that comes from life.
however, as you probably know, it is important to create a magnetic center - a group of "I's" that wish to work; that wish to struggle against ourselves and the world around us. for me, and many others, this struggle is personified by such entities as Satan, Lucifer, Loki, Tsalal, Crom, Cthulhu, and so on... these Ancient Ones are also outside of life and our illusionary, prison "reality"
my pursuit of the Left Hand Path is equal to my pursuit of Awakening. (as Dread Cthulhu struggles to Awake). i find it stimulating to marry the two (or three), and this cooperation "fixes" or crystalizes them into my life... moreso than they normally would be on their own.
i hope this enlightens my 4th way/Satanism/Lovecraft paradigm.
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priestwww.CultofCthulhu.net
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Post by jameson on Nov 22, 2006 17:53:51 GMT -6
The two are a marriage made in hell ;D and fit together perfectly.To some degree the Cthulhu mythos implies many parallels throughout the stories to the idea of awakening in The Fourth Way.
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Post by ruan7321 on Feb 2, 2007 12:55:37 GMT -6
I ordered my copy of The Fourth Way by Ouspensky today, should be here in 2 weeks.
Im lucky cause I work in a book shop. hahahhaa cheap books for me ;D
Now, can somone please help me understand what the Fourth Way is? All I could figure out is that it must be a system/way of thinking to help you Awaken/have moments of enlightenment. Im not even sure if that is correct. And if so. How does it help you on the Left Hand Path?
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 2, 2007 14:42:31 GMT -6
the 4th way is a different way of seeing yourself (and all human beings). it explains how man is like a broken machine, that he does not really know himself, that he lives in a sleeping state, and has no real 'I'.
where the name comes from is this: ancient traditions of transcending the world and our illusions have been interpreted as the fakir who controls the way he feels pain (this is the first way), the monk controls his emotions (the second), and the yogi controls his mind (the third). a practitioner of the Fourth Way attack and attempts to conquer all three of these areas at once.
for further info, put "Fourth Way" into an internet search and see what you get.
i'd be very interested in reading your response to your ordered book. please post your thoughts after you've read some.
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priestwww.CultofCthulhu.net
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Post by ruan7321 on Feb 2, 2007 16:40:06 GMT -6
Interesting.
Almost like "The Matrix"? Like the Risidual Self Image is us in our dream state, though you believe you are awake. Once you realise that, that is the illusion of yourself you can bend the fabric of reality. Is that sort of the idea?
I wil let you guys know once I've read the book. I am very intrigued.
Thanx
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 2, 2007 17:12:46 GMT -6
yes, except the 4th way doesn't go quite that far. it stops at realizing that one's idea of oneself is an illusion. and this teaching gives you tools to become more conscious.
the rest of it... "bending the fabric of reality" is my own gestalt theory, mixing the 4th way with Satanism, Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos, and Chaos Magic. hoping that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. it's an intuitive leap... the 4th way allowing the sleeper to Awaken and alter reality, but i believe it is very possible!
VS
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Post by ruan7321 on Feb 3, 2007 0:20:20 GMT -6
yes, except the 4th way doesn't go quite that far. it stops at realizing that one's idea of oneself is an illusion. and this teaching gives you tools to become more conscious.
the rest of it... "bending the fabric of reality" is my own gestalt theory, mixing the 4th way with Satanism, Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos, and Chaos Magic. hoping that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. it's an intuitive leap... the 4th way allowing the sleeper to Awaken and alter reality, but i believe it is very possible!
VSI've felt like that for a long time. And no, it wasn't after waching The Matrix Though I didn't know there were schools of thought on this before now. I must say once more the Mixing those elements (Satanism, Lovecraft, Choas Magic) makes one strong / powerful cocktail.
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on May 2, 2007 2:13:04 GMT -6
How is Ouspensky pronounced.
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Post by m2alik on Dec 14, 2007 14:43:06 GMT -6
I thought in The 4th Way the Goal was to be immortal. In Gurdjieff last 7 years of life his goal was to Survive Death.
In my opinion that by Awakniing you do acquire what always been. You have to Wake up!
I know a book which is privately printed and can be expensive is The Path Of The Masters by Julian Johnson of becoming God-like. I've ben reading a The Ray of Creation and Meditations is similar to 4th Way teachings and I do recommend The book.
the Ray of Creation is to Tune-In to your True Self or Observer and Align what is beyond the 3rd dimension.
I know I am rambing but I hope this helps in the 4Th Way alittle.
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 14, 2007 15:21:53 GMT -6
the goal of the 4th way is to be conscious, that is Awake. many believe (myself included) that a fully conscious being's essence can survive death.
the ray of creation is part of the 4th way philosophy, so i assume that book is definitely connected to Fourth Way teaching. i'd be interested in hearing more of this Path of the Masters book.
still haven't received my copy of All and Everything: Beezlebub's Tales to His Grandson by Gurdjieff... but i know it's coming!
VS
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Post by luxcthonis on Dec 14, 2007 18:20:32 GMT -6
I would also like to note here that while the practice of Awakening is performed in order to remember One-self, the memories which one will remember himself or herself as may be extremely disturbing to the rational mind; it is my theory that the resulting first stage of Awakening proper (the cold unfeeling) may be on account of these memories of One-self beginning to manifest in subjective (and subsequently, objective) reality. -H.
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Post by m2alik on Dec 16, 2007 14:47:40 GMT -6
The Audible Life Stream is to Connect and is the same as The Ray of Creation. By aligning your self to The Ray of Creation you can tune in and perform acts of Power beyond normal magicians. And you can use Other worlds of Power like Lucid Dreaming and to Meet the Gods in a sense on their level. Unlike other yogi books The author doesn't condone magical acts but displays of power , he does. He advocates to become even more than The Vedas. It is a Transcendental Religion in a sense but once tune in completely to The Ray of Creation your on your own. ;D
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Post by antaya on Jan 19, 2008 10:35:45 GMT -6
This reminds me of "Promethus riseing" by Robert Anton Wilson. I am a huge fan of his.I also recoment his books cosmic triger and his illuminati series of fiction books. Has anyone else ever read this materal?
Jerri
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Post by I AM the Way on Jan 19, 2008 13:55:45 GMT -6
yes, i've read Cosmic Trigger. it's a good chaos kind of foundation for seeing reality as fluid and unstable.
VS
p.s. first post with my new computer![/color]
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Post by jasmine on Feb 25, 2008 17:47:24 GMT -6
So, when does the self become outmoded? Unneeded. Once one is truly aware of self he/she is made aware of his/her higher self so to speak. This Self is no longer interested in the things that make our fleshy bodies tick. It is not interested in aquiring anything except information....it floats within a sea of information. When does this farce that we call a "self" end? Is that what is merely waiting for us at death? If so...then I no longer fear death. My true Self understands things that this fleshy body and brain cannot. I guess I am now looking forward to that day. On the other hand as the true Self cannot feel pain....I don't think it is able to experience happiness and joy the same way either.... With that in mind...is that why we take on bodies at all? Just to have these experiences and then "observe" them? If so then everything falls away, nothing is important, except the connections we make with others in this lifetime. I just looked at all of what I wrote here and Its all been said before....but fuck it. Its my experience and I came by these realizations the hard way....through experience.
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Post by jasmine on Feb 27, 2008 11:02:48 GMT -6
I am answering my own query here as no one had a response. I think that the self does become outmoded. The self that I have always identified with being "Jasmine" is just a construct of ideas and metaphors that let my fleshy body and brain interpret the information overload that our senses experience in this form. The construct of "Jasmine" becomes extraneous when one considers the idea of true immortality. The immortality of the higher self or being. It is just extremely hard to understand the higher or other selfs way of being and perception because we are distracted by emotion and feeling. There is no metaphor for our brain to compare to. No correlation. If one does not manage to have the experience of Self Remembering one cannot ever manage to achieve the thought patterns that will allow true ability to step out of "self". True immortality is what we all have...just some of us are more aware of it than others. Perhaps we lose the "construct self" when we die because it is extraneous and unneeded. Perhaps it interferes with the information coming in and we have to let it go in order to truly understand the nature of this universe/reality/construct. agh I am babbling....I feel like I am grasping threads of a higher idea and am not able to synthesize the thoughts properly yet. I will try again on another day perhaps.
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Madguten
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Post by Madguten on Feb 28, 2008 3:16:59 GMT -6
I feel that i know too little about the 4th way and Gurdjieff to talk about it. Aside from that i dont really know what to say about death/afterlife/post-flesh existence. On that subject i am as much in the blind as anyone else. Jasmine is real. You have maybe just become wiser. We must take it as it comes. We are mammals. We must make the best of it. At least we are not mindless flesh. Afterlife will come if it comes. And if it does we will deal with that when that time comes. So you see from my excuse for a response that i do not know much about the 4th way yet.
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Post by jasmine on Feb 28, 2008 11:05:06 GMT -6
I am uncertain how much of what I am currently traversing has a lot to do with the 4th Way. I believe it is the philosophies that brought me to a jumping off point. I am working with stuff personally that has moved beyond the ability of the 4th Way philosophies to entirely encompass.
I am working with the non-self. The other the self that is the ultimate observer. I guess the only magical literature that seems to encompass what I have been going through is considered to be the Abyss experience to the hermetic magican....perhaps to be related to Odin peering into the well of Mimir and falling back screaming with the knowledge.
I don't know. I do know that the person who logged onto this site back in Oct is not the same now. I have come to understand the nature of my "construct self". I am and I am not. It remains to be seen what I will do with my new "self".
I am sorry if I am messing up this thread....perhaps I should start a separate one?
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 28, 2008 11:15:01 GMT -6
The human phenomenon is but the sum Of densely coiled layers of illusion Each of which winds itself on the supreme insanity That there are persons of any kind When all there can be is mindless mirrors Laughing and screaming as they parade about in an endless dream.Thomas Ligotti - "I Have A Special Plan For This World"
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Post by jasmine on Feb 28, 2008 11:51:50 GMT -6
Huzzah! Let me be the first to remind you of how well you rock on with your bad ass Venger!!! Thank you. I do believe reading some Ligotti is in order.... Nice painting. It gave me a strong visceral sensation. I only like art that I can feel when I look at it. Yours always evokes sensation for me.
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Post by jasmine on Feb 28, 2008 12:00:45 GMT -6
I agree with all that you said above Madguten....but this. Jasmine is not real. I am. Jasmine is but a string of memetic experience that results in the ability to interact with the information sea that we live in. Nothing more. My true Self is nameless and aware. Jasmine is no different than an archetype or an entity that we as mages draw down and "wear" for awhile. They are all persona's that let us perceive the information that we exist within. I think personally that once a certain level of consciousness occurs then our "persona's" become the same as any hat we wear in order to alter our inherent perceptions. Masks are another metaphor for this method. I am choosing to take off the mask of Jasmine and look at what lies beneath. It is a most interesting look I must say. That's about it. I will post more as I become aware of more. Thanks again to everyone for all their help and interest in my perceptions....I could not have made it this far without all of you. Jaz.
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Post by Yahn'ikthorn on Feb 28, 2008 12:13:01 GMT -6
The human phenomenon is but the sum Of densely coiled layers of illusion Each of which winds itself on the supreme insanity That there are persons of any kind When all there can be is mindless mirrors Laughing and screaming as they parade about in an endless dream.Thomas Ligotti - "I Have A Special Plan For This World" That's one fcking great short album by Current 93 & Ligotti, great indeed! Perfect going-to-sleep listening.
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 28, 2008 16:06:37 GMT -6
glad you liked the quote and painting. by the way, that was painted by David Tibet who also voices Ligotti's bizarre and revelational prose poem on I Have A Special Plan For This World. his artwork is disturbing on a beautiful level.
VS
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Post by Yahn'ikthorn on Feb 28, 2008 16:19:41 GMT -6
I know, I've been a fan of Tibet's work (both in music and visual arts) for years. Thoroughly recommended. Current 93's evolution from ritual ambient-ish, or Birth-Canal Blues as Tibet calls it, to what it is today is quite fascinating. As with other bands of the neo/dark/apocalyptic folk scene like Death in June, Sol Invictus, Coil etc.
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Post by jasmine on Feb 29, 2008 12:18:13 GMT -6
Wow. It has been so long since I heard the name of that band I had forgotten it existed. Current 93. I loved some of that shit! I had a friend that would play it all the time in the early 90's. I will have to go check it out. I love Sol Invictus and Death in June as well.
I really have to say that I thought that painting was one of yours Venger. You two have really similar styles. I like the other artwork you provided here......are those angles or constellations or what?
Mass Coolness.
Ia Cthulhu!!! Jaz.
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 29, 2008 14:03:53 GMT -6
thanks, i take that as a great compliment. those other images are all from the IHASPFTW CD. i think 2 are constellations. David Tibet's song titles and lyrics are so fantastically poetic. some of his music is too weird for me to enjoy however.
VS
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Post by jasmine on May 17, 2008 8:36:52 GMT -6
I have to say that I am still standing by my theory that Jasmine does not exist. I would love to debate it more as I am discovering that as I try to explain this experience with others....they seem to have such a strong fear reaction to the mere idea of not existing....that they deny even the possibility. I am not merely a string of experiential memories! I am something else. Jasmine is as stated before only a tool for interaction in this sea of possibilites that we exist within. I am. I am nameless and complete. I do not negate my existence or emotions. I just choose to deal with the truth....not the lies that most emotions are. All emotions are is a map to Self. You experience negative sensations when you injure Self. You experience positive sensations when you help Self. It all comes back to you and you and you baby. Its all about the process the evolution....we are but larvae or pupae if you will in this lifetime. Get right this time around or you gotta do it again. Personally an eternity of sleeping life after life away.....makes me recoil in disgust. How someone can close their eyes to such wonder after the veil has been lifted at long last? Ok....that's it for now.
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Post by jasmine on Jul 14, 2008 10:15:26 GMT -6
I have been re-reading the geocities site about the 4th Way and I have to say that the one thing that continually sticks in my craw with the philosophies is Gurdgieffs concept of good actions and evil actions.
Here we are presented with a supposedly trancendent philosophy, yet once again we are presented with such backwards ideas such as this. Worrying about what are good actions or evil ones....grrrr.
There is no good and there is no evil.
Why is this philosophy even lowering itself to this level? Oh yeah....it was written quite some time ago. With that in mind. I have to say that I like most of the 4th way teachings....but once again it is a system created by a human.
A human with human frailties. I have learned and grown so much in the short time I have been working with this system....but in the end I have to realize that he's was only a person and well, sometimes he was wrong.
I refute the belief that anyone outside of myself can determine what is going to make me happy in the end.
I am my own Creatrix.
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Post by valkyrie on Jul 14, 2008 15:01:35 GMT -6
There is no good and there is no evil. Why is this philosophy even lowering itself to this level? Oh yeah....it was written quite some time ago. With that in mind. I have to say that I like most of the 4th way teachings....but once again it is a system created by a human. A human with human frailties. I have learned and grown so much in the short time I have been working with this system....but in the end I have to realize that he's was only a person and well, sometimes he was wrong. I refute the belief that anyone outside of myself can determine what is going to make me happy in the end. I am my own Creatrix. I love your post, Jasmine! And interesting questions you ask yourself. Coincidentally, I have been dealing with the same kind of issue for quite a while now so I would love to discuss this with you. Why this philosophy is lowering itself to this level is I think because it has been created by a human and his mind/thoughts (I call it ego but this is open for discussion I realize that). Thoughts originate from a different source than spiritual experiences and like you said in your poem on your blog, thoughts can be discussed, elaborated on, or whatever but actually experiencing things is of a totally different nature. I totally agree with you when you say that Jasmine does not exist, she is merely created by the ego to live her life here in this reality. And with created I mean, created! It starts at a very young age and we are taught how to behave, how to think, how to act...it's all very subtle but once you start observing.... well that is how it all started for me, once you start observing you notice that there is the observed and the observer and I can imagine that for some people the observer can be quite unknown. Once you start this there is no way back, you can't but see yourself behave in certain patterns and to me it was shocking to see how much control my ego has over me. The interesting thing is that by observing you feed it less but on the other hand the ego is so eager to maintain itself that it will try with all means to fill up the gap the observer left. Seeing that distinction of who I am and the created self made me feel as if all solid ground was being ripped from underneath my feet. The basic idea I had about myself and my life changed drastically. In the mean time I have come to see that the only way to deal with it is to stay in the now, in the moment, in the present. So when a situation arrives I try to look at it like I see it for the first time, no judgment, no reconnecting to old similar situations and reconnecting to the emotions experienced at that same time, a game that the ego does love to play with us. It loves to stay in control and make us feel so called safe by treading known paths. But that way you stay dormant as it prefers you to so it can master you. Haha, what a joke to think that we actually control ourselves. I agree that you need to be awake to do so. Your last sentence is very true as we tend to spent way too much time looking for answers outside ourselves whereas all we need to do is remember.... but that is the tough bit of course
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 14, 2008 17:44:45 GMT -6
is that Gurdjieff's assessment or someone's interpretation of Gurdjieff's 4th way ideas? usually G, Ouspensky, and the other masters of the 4th way are able to resist lower dualistic morality such as "good" and "evil".
agreed. Venger Satanis does not exist; however, he often comes close to symbolizing something real. the average human being is so removed from true consciousness, that we cannot honestly talk about people and reality in the same breath. those concepts are as apples compared with oranges.
i believe what we must do is this... let go of our self-ideas in favor of examining the unique impression we leave upon the Formless Black Essence.
VS
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