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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 2, 2011 11:48:26 GMT -6
This concept may be worth discussion and has been presented in several ways. My question is whether or not a "Unified Consciousness" is metaphysical in nature or has a more practical explanation? Here is what I mean...
The mystics propose that we are interconnected in some yet-to-be explained manner, that a collective consciousness exists (Akasha, or whatever name for it your choose). How this collective consciousness operates isn't understood, but there exists some phenomenon that suggests (to some) that a collective consciousness exists, resulting in a metaphysical theory(ies) to explain it. This theory (or these theories) also often support the concept that reality is internal, founded on the belief of the individual who benefits from the acceptance of and participation in the metaphysical collective consciousness.
One practical theory is based on what is observed in the formation of our own consciousness. Admittedly, our own consciousness is little understood, but it does seem to be linked to our brain-cells and communication between those cells. This communication occurs through a bio-chemical medium, and is electro-chemical in nature. Communication appears to be direct: cell-to-cell.
A practical collective consciousness may operate along the same model, with each individual acting as a cell of the collective "brain". Our medium of communication is through our senses and our various methods of expression externally in this practical model, not internal or spiritual. This practical collective consciousness supports family units and results in communities, societies, ethnic groups, political blocks, religions and philosophical schools, national identities, cultures... all forms of collective thinking.
I would guess that other models exist, no more right or wrong than any other theory at this point. I suppose I should ask the further question as to which model should be the focus of our efforts, as individuals and as a "collective". There are no doubt benefits for striving for the development of some kind of "spiritual" collective, but if the goal is the manifestation of a unified consciousness (and I am not saying that this is the goal, only a goal which is being expressed), is the metaphysical and internal route the most effective, or the practical and external route?
I have no answers here. Please present your own theories and understanding.
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 2, 2011 14:48:10 GMT -6
A query rife with profundity! Yes, I believe the topic of unified consciousness is well worth discussing. Let us begin.
From a trinary perspective, we have three distinct types, things, or operations...
1. Esoteric / Spiritual - That which deals with inner qualities, that which is hidden or intangible.
2. Exoteric / Material - That which deals with outer qualities, that which is obvious, tangible, base, or even primitive in some aspects.
3. (?) - Now, we have the third side to complete the triad. Rather than thinking of this as merely a "middle ground", which it of course is, the last component of our trinary model has its own separate value... its own qualities which differentiate it from the ordinary binary model. Imagine the combination of blue and yellow to make green. Yes, green is central to blue and yellow, but green has its own essence rather than simply being blue/yellow.
Should we not work on internal/spiritual, as well as, external/material matters and connectivity? In focusing on both simultaneously, I believe that a third door will open up. One allowing us to either transcend spirit and matter or somehow combine them. The results may yield a collective consciousness which also allows for some degree of separatism. After all, the Left Hand Path is not a means to uniformity but individualism on the grandest of scales.
This is by no means the last word on the subject, but hopefully only the beginning of an exhaustive discussion.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis
Ipsissimus
Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 2, 2011 15:05:26 GMT -6
A query rife with profundity! Yes, I believe the topic of unified consciousness is well worth discussing. Let us begin.
From a trinary perspective, we have three distinct types, things, or operations...
1. Esoteric / Spiritual - That which deals with inner qualities, that which is hidden or intangible.
2. Exoteric / Material - That which deals with outer qualities, that which is obvious, tangible, base, or even primitive in some aspects.
3. (?) - Now, we have the third side to complete the triad. Rather than thinking of this as merely a "middle ground", which it of course is, the last component of our trinary model has its own separate value... its own qualities which differentiate it from the ordinary binary model. Imagine the combination of blue and yellow to make green. Yes, green is central to blue and yellow, but green has its own essence rather than simply being blue/yellow.
Should we not work on internal/spiritual, as well as, external/material matters and connectivity? In focusing on both simultaneously, I believe that a third door will open up. One allowing us to either transcend spirit and matter or somehow combine them. The results may yield a collective consciousness which also allows for some degree of separatism. After all, the Left Hand Path is not a means to uniformity but individualism on the grandest of scales.
This is by no means the last word on the subject, but hopefully only the beginning of an exhaustive discussion.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis
Ipsissimus
Cult of Cthulhu
It seems in organizations such as these that there is a bias against the practical. This is not a criticism, but an observation. Some people seem so wrapped up in esoteric methods that they let the practical atrophy, and some so much the practical that the reverse is true. Indulging in Esotericism to the exclusion of all else suggests an inability to be effectual in a practical sense, and indulgence in the practical exclusively demonstrates a stunted imagination. I agree that a balance should be struck; an internal conviction in the possibility of a unified consciousness, and external effort to make such a consciousness more clarified in its intent. The unified consciousness does indeed exist, but it is jumbled, schizophrenic, and often counter-productive. It does not oppose Individualism to encourage a commonality in thinking and agenda among others. Rather, self-preservation suggests that the fewer your enemies (through conversion to sharing your values and methodology), the easier it is to persist as an Individual. The Left-Hand Path and the Right-Hand Path prove to be limited concepts suggesting an initiation into understanding through one perspective or another, but both are incomplete with the discovery of the other within. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2011 16:02:46 GMT -6
As each human is influenced by the others, some kind of Unified Consciousness de facto exist...
And with a crushing majority of mankind being machines, mankind itself is a super-machine, with it's thoughts and emotions, and with it's "consciousness", unconsciousness rather !
I don't like this super-machine... It's ugly, dumb, it's a prison, a part of the universe, and to Awake, as much as possible we must get free from it's influence, we must separate.
Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn !
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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 2, 2011 16:36:58 GMT -6
As each human is influenced by the others, some kind of Unified Consciousness de facto exist...
And with a crushing majority of mankind being machines, mankind itself is a super-machine, with it's thoughts and emotions, and with it's "consciousness", unconsciousness rather !
I don't like this super-machine... It's ugly, dumb, it's a prison, a part of the universe, and to Awake, as much as possible we must get free from it's influence, we must separate.
Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn !
Separation in this life is not possible, and I hope you are not thinking of terminating your life in order to be distinct from this reality. Your own machine is "ugly, dumb, a prison"... but it has potential. If it worked properly, it could be the platform toward something more. The same could be said about the "super-machine", although for the moment all we can really do is focus on ourselves. We cannot worry about the condition of other machines until we are Aware enough of ourselves to stop being mechanical. If we have the potential to change the nature of our existence, then the potential to change the nature of existence is possible. If the super-machine discovers the will, as we discover individually, to properly organize and correct its malfunctioning parts, then just like in the individual something extraordinary may be possible. The super-machine is yours as well. It is what we all have to work with. It is broken. Do you wish to discard it, or Work to repair it? |
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Post by mellifleur257 on Mar 2, 2011 17:52:40 GMT -6
It seems there are too many unknowns on this topic to find any reasonable ground to stand on in order to form a proper arguement.
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Post by hartnell on Mar 2, 2011 19:28:06 GMT -6
"is the metaphysical and internal route the most effective, or the practical and external route?" There's no difference between metaphysical and practical for me, no difference between internal and external other than direction and location in the same sense that you can see a dot inside a square and outside a square. For me it's just separating the same plane. With that bit of autism said...  I agree completely with your post. I think we're connected by association and interaction and most of this happens beyond our conscious awareness, though it can be brought into awareness in the same way that just I brought awareness of your left index finger back into your awareness right now. |
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Post by hartnell on Mar 2, 2011 19:50:31 GMT -6
Extended Mind: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Mind"In this paper, Clark and Chalmers present the idea of active externalism (similar to semantic or "content" externalism), in which objects within the environment function as a part of the mind. They argue that it is arbitrary to say that the mind is contained only within the boundaries of the skull. The separation between the mind, the body, and the environment is seen as an unprincipled distinction. Because external objects play a significant role in aiding cognitive processes, the mind and the environment act as a "coupled system". This coupled system can be seen as a complete cognitive system of its own. In this manner, the mind is extended into the external world. The main criterion that Clark and Chalmers list for classifying the use of external objects during cognitive tasks as a part of an extended cognitive system is that the external objects must function with the same purpose as the internal processes." |
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Post by boksmutant on Mar 2, 2011 20:40:15 GMT -6
Humans are unruly animals. Our species has expressed our purpose as"cells" (in this brain) quite clear in the few thousand years we've had to conduct our selves. Yes there is a collective consciousness between us, but it is buried under so much separation by Lesser Gods. But this is the physical side of it. Where does the earth & its limited resources fit into this model of the brain, this CC?
I would like to hear more on how collective consciousness would be manifest in a practical & external way vs the spiritual & metaphysical? This seems impossible to me as Ive stated above.
I'll jump right to it as I would think the only way we could physically come together as a CC is to constantly put our bodies through a sorta ritual torment. Fight club comes to mind,since that is a source of communication that demands unity & equality from each & every person. Then we might be able to maintain a level of communal consciousness that extends beyond just farming together or praying together.
Think of it this way, if connecting spiritually/metaphysically to the CC is a state of heightened consciousness, then the flesh connecting to the CC at a heightened state would be a level of agreeable pain/pleasure. Probably very heightened. Agreed?
I'm saying I don't see how it could be done physically. How would it represent its self Jason?
Awake!
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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 3, 2011 9:23:33 GMT -6
Humans are unruly animals. Our species has expressed our purpose as"cells" (in this brain) quite clear in the few thousand years we've had to conduct our selves. Yes there is a collective consciousness between us, but it is buried under so much separation by Lesser Gods. But this is the physical side of it. Where does the earth & its limited resources fit into this model of the brain, this CC? I would like to hear more on how collective consciousness would be manifest in a practical & external way vs the spiritual & metaphysical? This seems impossible to me as Ive stated above. I'll jump right to it as I would think the only way we could physically come together as a CC is to constantly put our bodies through a sorta ritual torment. Fight club comes to mind,since that is a source of communication that demands unity & equality from each & every person. Then we might be able to maintain a level of communal consciousness that extends beyond just farming together or praying together. Think of it this way, if connecting spiritually/metaphysically to the CC is a state of heightened consciousness, then the flesh connecting to the CC at a heightened state would be a level of agreeable pain/pleasure. Probably very heightened. Agreed? I'm saying I don't see how it could be done physically. How would it represent its self Jason? Awake! Alright, so what we are talking about here is how the unified consciousness manifests physically, in my opinion. Just want to make it clear to everyone that I am not speaking on this topic authoritatively... just another guy making a suggestion. Remember what I said on another thread about keeping things simple? In the brain, the cells appear to be connected through their communication with one another. Any other form of connection (except maybe direct contact) is not apparent. The consciousness is a result of that communication between cells. The better and faster that communication, the more efficient that consciousness tends to be. In Work terms, the more unified and goal-motivated the different parts of the brain are, the more effective the consciousness tends to be. Now, look at a family; mom, dad, 2.5 children... Each is an individual, but each shares a common set of values. They are motivated by similar goals. They communicate with one another toward what are hopefully agreed upon goals. A family represents a form of group-think, a unified consciousness. The practical expression is the shared aspects of the family between its individual members and their tendency to stand together when dealing with elements outside their unit (I know... that is not always the experience). There are examples of a metaphysical, or esoteric connection as well. My father has claimed to have been aware of my mother's death the instant it occurred. My brother and I, who call one another infrequently, still manage to often dial one another's number at the same about the same time... we were each thinking of calling the other. It is my understanding that these are not extraordinary circumstances, but very common occurrences. The practical unified consciousness extends beyond the family. Communities often have a particular "feel" which could be attributed again to their interactivity and commonality of goals and values. Societies, ethnic groups, cultures, nations... all partake in a kind of group-think, or unified consciousness. It could be relatively more unified. We could each become more aware of our interconnectivity. One of the reasons I would suggest that unification does not exist throughout is that we lack common purpose and common values... or rather we allow the social "false personality" that our species has developed but was not born with to bury the social "essence" that is a part of our species' natural being. The machine of our species as a whole is far more broken and malfunctioning than the machine of the individual. Unfortunately, I have to agree with many of the futurists of the last 100 years about how that situation will be corrected. The human species has not had to deal with, and overcome, a catastrophe of significant scale to unify us toward the common goal of survival. Until such a threat to our essential selves manifests, we will continue to allow the different aspects of our social "false personality" to bicker and keep us, as a species, asleep. |
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ThvrzOna8
Novitiate
Esoteric Wizard Ov Terrible Darkness!
Posts: 16
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Post by ThvrzOna8 on Mar 3, 2011 22:30:28 GMT -6
This reminds me much ov the measurement problem in quantum physics! It states that an atom cannot exist until it is measured! Therefor, if it is not objectionably observed by an "outside" force it does not posses the means ov existence! Then again this raises the "Question" How doth non-existent objects become non-existent? It is because ov this paradox that "Things" become labeled, what is real, and what is not is completely irrelevent if both can be experienced! Just my own words on the matter! As always, your brother,
Shythirol
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtgan!
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Post by darkprism on Mar 4, 2011 22:34:48 GMT -6
I really feel this statement has a lot of truth to it. Different cities and different parts of cities have their own unique group-think or cultural consciousness going on and it is evident with the associations people make of some suburbs to be known as trendy or cool or the live music hub or restaurant district. Each time the district or region is visited by others who know of the reputation, a new addition of 'thought energy' so to speak is given off and added to the accumulated vibe or unified consciousness of the place or area. This is apparent when visiting cultural and ethnic districts.
This is also true of dangerous areas where there is a lot of drug dealing and crime going on. The sensation of fear and suspicion that has built up over time really has a physical sensation of being watched while walking or driving down the streets of one of these areas. The feelings of paranoia, caution and danger given off adds to the unified consciousness of that area. Strange it is, when traveling perhaps a mile down the road and the vibe or feel changes dramatically. You have just entered an area with a different unified consciousness or group think.
At least that's how it makes sense to me, based on what Jason wrote and what I have studied regarding 'though dynamics'.
Awake!
Dark Prism
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Post by darkprism on Mar 4, 2011 23:09:59 GMT -6
A query rife with profundity! Yes, I believe the topic of unified consciousness is well worth discussing. Let us begin.
From a trinary perspective, we have three distinct types, things, or operations...
1. Esoteric / Spiritual - That which deals with inner qualities, that which is hidden or intangible.
2. Exoteric / Material - That which deals with outer qualities, that which is obvious, tangible, base, or even primitive in some aspects.
3. (?) - Now, we have the third side to complete the triad. Rather than thinking of this as merely a "middle ground", which it of course is, the last component of our trinary model has its own separate value... its own qualities which differentiate it from the ordinary binary model. Imagine the combination of blue and yellow to make green. Yes, green is central to blue and yellow, but green has its own essence rather than simply being blue/yellow.
Should we not work on internal/spiritual, as well as, external/material matters and connectivity? In focusing on both simultaneously, I believe that a third door will open up. One allowing us to either transcend spirit and matter or somehow combine them. The results may yield a collective consciousness which also allows for some degree of separatism. After all, the Left Hand Path is not a means to uniformity but individualism on the grandest of scales.
This is by no means the last word on the subject, but hopefully only the beginning of an exhaustive discussion.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis
Ipsissimus
Cult of Cthulhu
"The whole is greater than the sum of the parts", is a quote that comes to mind when thinking about the third part of your trinary perspective, and perhaps the third side does indeed open up a new door of possibilities. When thinking about the concept of connectivity and separateness, I can only picture things as connected at this point and am unsure if separation is actually possible. Isn't everything already interconnected? Can true separation really exist? Awake! Dark Prism |
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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 5, 2011 9:05:33 GMT -6
"The whole is greater than the sum of the parts", is a quote that comes to mind when thinking about the third part of your trinary perspective, and perhaps the third side does indeed open up a new door of possibilities. When thinking about the concept of connectivity and separateness, I can only picture things as connected at this point and am unsure if separation is actually possible. Isn't everything already interconnected? Can true separation really exist? Awake! Dark Prism Gurdjieff's system describes three lines of Work; Work for the self, Work with others, and Work for the "school". When we read the word "school" in the context it is used, we might assume that what is meant is a Fourth Way of Gurdjieff School, a gathering of people who make a concentrated effort to Work for the benefit of Gurdjieff's system. What if, however, "school" implies a kind of coming together of individuals who's efforts and thoughts are focused on the mutual benefit of the group as a whole. A school of fish comes to mind, or the idea of being of a "school of thought" akin to the Ancient Greeks (just a group of people meeting regularly to discuss ideas, usually with a leader who was just as much a student as the rest but having more experience wrestling with the topic). In that sense, any grouping forms a kind of school, although these schools, like the members of the school itself, will be relatively more or less aware. I think effort is constant. It is the quality of effort that varies. The three lines of Work Gurdjieff describes I would suggest are engaged in by nearly everyone, either in an effort to Awake or an effort to remain Asleep. Individuals naturally Work in their own self-interest. It may be the right kind of Work (encouraging greater Awareness and self-development) or the wrong kind of Work (feeding the false Personality and delusion, mechanical, assumptive thinking). It is probably a mixed bag, some Work by the Individual is beneficial, and some is not. Individuals seem pre-disposed to Working with one another, either for mutual benefit or for some self-motivated profit... like just doing for others to feel validated about one's personal worth and "goodness". The sum in human effort is almost always greater than the parts. When the Individual is Working for themselves, and engages in Work with others, a third line of Work results. The group-consciousness occurs, and that consciousness will have relatively more or less Awareness, and be more or less beneficial. In one neighborhood, the individuals working together have created an environment that is nurturing, secure, and ordered because they themselves choose to be nurturing, secure, and ordered. In another neighborhood where enough of the Individuals choose, either actively or apathetically, to be vicious, opportunistic, narcissistic, and to hold no value for their own existence, the third line of Work will generate that vibe (and often degenerate the Individuals in the neighborhood). In that kind of group consciousness, awareness is so degraded that the most narcissistic and vicious tends to define the nature of the Work... usually with an eye on ensuring that their position cannot be challenged. What is dangerous about these examples of unified consciousness it that they tend to be infectious... or rather the less Aware the Individual, the more prone he or she is to conforming to the group-think. "Neighborhoods" where each individual is as valued as the other, and are distinctly Aware of the profits of their own efforts, tend to produce more beneficial results. Those neighborhoods where Individuality is not valued, where the group consciousness is focused on the well-being of the few at the expense of the many, and where effort and ability are ignored or even punished, tend to be "ghettos". This is why I propose that successful, productive groups must be made-up of self-actualized Individuals. In groups where the Individuals remain distinct, the Work performed should be of a higher quality as each member of the group is in it for themselves. Their investment should be greater because they know they are going to get a greater return, and that the end result will be an expression of themselves as Individuals as much as that of the group. Groups where this distinction is missing, where the demand to conform to a leader is relatively greater than the urge to conform to the ideals the group is formed around, go no further than the limits of the leader's personal ability to manifest whatever he or she seeks to manifest. A mutually shared and developed vision is wondrous to behold. Conforming to a singular-vision, even the vision of someone who professes to be self-Aware, means submitting Awareness and choosing Sleep. |
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ThvrzOna8
Novitiate
Esoteric Wizard Ov Terrible Darkness!
Posts: 16
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Post by ThvrzOna8 on Mar 7, 2011 19:40:27 GMT -6
Aww nothing like a good ol' mind phuck, eh?! The paradox Ov determing and separating that which involves the mind, body and spirit and possibly the unified conciousness! Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
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Post by whatsupable on Mar 27, 2011 5:23:58 GMT -6
great discussion
need to sink it in and think a while about it.
thinking of that cc i think that might also be the reason why you like to go to some place rather than the other.
i think that a great test field would be a high school because those people (around age 14 - 19) are learning a lot about social and group behavior.
normally there are a few groups in a school (well at least at mine) that all have a different unified consciousness and also a collection between each group as the overlap of them.
i also guess that the bigger the group gets the weaker the system, because you automatically get sub groups.
to get away from this you should try to not get commanded by the system but to try to break free from it awakening on a small scale.
lets put that to a world wide scale and you have our general life?
(came out more as a metaphor about schools and awakening than on this topic)
at least this is as far as i get it now.
by his loathsome tentacle
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