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Post by lokidreaming on Dec 2, 2010 22:47:58 GMT -6
From my point of view and personal experiences and observations.
DISCIPLINE
When I first got into Hospitality I had this asain head chef who was and is still is the asian version of "Gordan Ramsey". Nothing I ever did was from my point of view good enough. He was always getting the staff to do menail and pointless tasks that could have been done at other times.
When I parted ways with them, I was told that where ever I go cos of them I will always be one of the best in any field I choose to go, they were right then and they are right now.
That was my BOOT CAMP, that has helped me considerably to the person I am today.
Form my personal understanding, when you are put in that situaiton you can quit (aka get out of the kitchen if its too hot for you) or put up with it and or prove yourslef. I always choose to prove myself.
It works, cos its more of a psychological approach, its you as an individual who has to dig deep down eg, personal tainer pushing you to your limits.
Its not just the army and authoritarian forces like cops for put this to practise. Monks of all beliefs system and nuns of the catholic faith pu this into practise.
Yes you will have those who will go you beeping Nazi bastard.
In relating to the occult work, DISCIPLINE has been drilled into my head so much when I first started out.
I was given Aleister Crowleys Liber something (upstairs in my room lol) , part of it had sitting postures and breathing exercises to help me with my disciplne, I originally thought, OMG, you want me to do that? You must be kidding? You are kidding me? Once again i was behaving like a new army recruit lol.
After I startd going back to the gym I was like hmmm, this is making sense, cos the
Liber something breathing exercises=carido workout
cardio workout=improves how much weights you can use
It is tue on grows stronger through adveristy and being is suffering
To me sometimes the authortarian style and all the discipline, rules and reuglations can work.
Enduring all these discipline, rulse and regulations in a way is in a way going through suffering and adversity.
eg, You guy blah blah blah whatever, then one day like me a lgiht bulb lights up and you go OOPS, then you have to reassess everything to held conclusive.
Well you can see where I am going with this in realting it to the occult path.
I used to get frsustrated by all the rules regulating what topics I'm allowed to and not allowed to post.
In a way i get it now, however my interpreataion/internalisation may be different from others.
Now realting this to LHP, a lot of it is about being free and doing whats right for you and being true to yourself.
So here lies the conflict between groups and individuals on the LHP
Cos
You have (new) LHP path groups sprouting up trying to decentralise the "PLATO REPUPLIC EFFECT" and hold on the occult/LHP community and try not to behave like and organised church.
However, most of them revert back to the basics of that PLATO EFFECT no matter how hard they try by going to be a member of this group you have to this and that and don;t do this and that.
One of the reasons I have concluded for this is some of the new LHPers and satanists, don't really believe in magick and magical practices, so they don't understand the importance of DISCIPLNE in regards to those practices.
And if they do, they are mosly thesitc satanists who use the ritual t as a mean to an end, they don't really believe in it, they are just hoping their rituals works so they understand why there is discipline, and rules and reaulations governing occult groups and individuals. Co they have it in there minds, due to limited material they ahve come across and linited material that the LHP sould be like this and like that (mostly them quoting La Veys wrtiting).
And others they don't believe in anything but themselves.
I see DISCIPLINE; rules and regulations of most groups as a tool to help futher myself as an occultist.
Cos of my understandings, I really want to go to a proper army boot camp just to prove to myself I am as tough as I know I am.
ps:- From personal experience in situations like this the individual always falsely blames the personal trainer for their pain and suffering.
The perosnal trainer is the a hepling aid, the trainee has to do all the hard work!!!
Personal trainer=Occult groups, members etc
So I thank those who out there who has helped me in my path as an occultist, most of the time just my crossing my path , and even though you may think that person is an online idiot and not going anywhere, most of the time you fail you to understand how you have tocuhed that persons life for the better
Belief is reality
Loki Dreaming
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Post by iandiabhal on Dec 2, 2010 23:37:44 GMT -6
Great essay. For my own part, I have been a Satanist for 37 years. I have had plenty of time to take it down the block, examine my own thoughts, test the philosophy - even beat the hell out of it...and it still has held accurate and effective for me. I am not opposed to grafting other selective ideas and new processes onto it. That is important as well, but the basic philosophical core - for me has remained more or less the same. We all go through ups and downs.
I have seen many Satanists or pseudo-satanists to be more exact, go by the wayside and give up on Satanism when the chips were down or life threw a tough curve ball at them. For me, a belief must be challenged and questioned.
If it doesn't hold up under pressure, then its not much of a belief at all.
The Christian will chatter on about how great Jesus love is - when things are going well. It makes one wonder how well their "faith" would hold up - put to a real and true test of that faith. I wonder how many of them nowadays would deny their "faith" when they heard those lions roaring for blood. Damn few if any would stand up to that sort of pressure. Most Christians are hypocrites, and what they "do for good" is to be seen doing good. Its all superficial posturing and shallow cliches.
One fellow set and argued with me on and on, and said his faith would hold up in any case whatsoever.
I then said - let us imagine a hypothetical situation.
Your standing there. I am standing there.
I lift up a loaded 44 magnum, pull back the hammer, put it to your head, and then tell you that you have 10 seconds to curse and deny God and Jesus and proclaim Satan is the Ruler of this World and bow down to Him and proclaim Him to be the only true god before I blow your head plumb off...your time starts now.
Of course the fellow predictably said "I would stand faithful to Jesus to the end".
I said then we have nothing left to say...because not only are you an utter fool, you are in all likelyhood a damned stupid lying fool as well.
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Post by lokidreaming on Dec 3, 2010 3:38:26 GMT -6
If someone
"lifted up a loaded 44 magnum, pull back the hammer, put it to myhead, and then tell you that you have 10 seconds to deny my path/beleives for whatever reason and to blow my plumb head off...your time starts now."
I don't know what I will say back until I'm put in that position, however what I do know is I wil put ouf my mag krava moves I have been studying.
The reason being is I'm not ready to die just yet, thats the truth.
I'm not afraid of dying for my beleilefs, but I'm not ready to die, so I am going to fight for life until I am ready to die.
Loki
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 3, 2010 11:55:02 GMT -6
The original post in this thread was the best and worst I've seen in awhile. In the spirit of discipline, I implore you to re-write your entire essay. Your wisdom is too mired in grammatical and spelling errors, brother.
Your hypothetical situation is actually right out of The Gospels and Revelations. To deny what and who we are in the face of adversity is to live as a slave. It has metaphorical implications, of course. How far are you willing to compromise before it's no longer worth it... before your true self is sacrificed in favor of comfort and safety?
If you take this example as literal, then while it might look a damned stupid decision, doesn't it also imply a stronger sense of self, discipline, and unyielding will? Assuming the individual's energy, spirit, essence, soul, or whatever is stronger than reality and can transcend death, then compromising that deified self would only dilute our practice of the Left Hand Path. Right or wrong? I'd like others to speak their mind on this one.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest
Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by ragnafa on Dec 3, 2010 20:34:08 GMT -6
It has been a while, but this thread is very interesting. I have to agree with Master Satanis on this. If we follow the right hand path religions we fail at everything. You deny every aspect of your spirit. I believe that this state of being is very much a spiritual death. Let me expound on that in my own way of explanation. You have a soul that has been deluded with these low vibrations(right hand path theocracy) for most of it's life and after time it becomes broken, melted down and spit back out. Into what I call your mechanical being. We need to let go of everything and and become the very Gods we need to be. If you read the bible and really read between the lines Jesus wanted you to be equal to him, to become your own God. It's time to awake brother's and sisters. I'm going through hell and back everyday dealing with my shit that has been handed to me. But I feel like I have gone one step closer to becoming more awakened. We need to listen to Master Satanis, He is very wise and will lead the Way.
Thank you Master.
Awake...
Dreaming Wizard of the Terrible Darkness
Izratan'Sharaz
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Post by Sarak G'hash on Dec 3, 2010 21:44:46 GMT -6
It has been a while, but this thread is very interesting. I have to agree with Master Satanis on this. If we follow the right hand path religions we fail at everything. You deny every aspect of your spirit. I believe that this state of being is very much a spiritual death. Let me expound on that in my own way of explanation. You have a soul that has been deluded with these low vibrations(right hand path theocracy) for most of it's life and after time it becomes broken, melted down and spit back out. Into what I call your mechanical being. We need to let go of everything and and become the very Gods we need to be. If you read the bible and really read between the lines Jesus wanted you to be equal to him, to become your own God. It's time to awake brother's and sisters. I'm going through hell and back everyday dealing with my shit that has been handed to me. But I feel like I have gone one step closer to becoming more awakened. We need to listen to Master Satanis, He is very wise and will lead the Way.
Thank you Master.
Awake...
Dreaming Wizard of the Terrible Darkness
Izratan'Sharaz You know, I basically just texted that to my daughter before I read this post! I asked her "Have you ever looked in the mirror and wondered who the hell is looking back because it damn sure isn't YOU" Awake! |
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Post by boksmutant on Dec 4, 2010 13:44:42 GMT -6
Great essay. For my own part, I have been a Satanist for 37 years. I have had plenty of time to take it down the block, examine my own thoughts, test the philosophy - even beat the hell out of it...and it still has held accurate and effective for me. I am not opposed to grafting other selective ideas and new processes onto it. That is important as well, but the basic philosophical core - for me has remained more or less the same. We all go through ups and downs. I have seen many Satanists or pseudo-satanists to be more exact, go by the wayside and give up on Satanism when the chips were down or life threw a tough curve ball at them. For me, a belief must be challenged and questioned. If it doesn't hold up under pressure, then its not much of a belief at all. The Christian will chatter on about how great Jesus love is - when things are going well. It makes one wonder how well their "faith" would hold up - put to a real and true test of that faith. I wonder how many of them nowadays would deny their "faith" when they heard those lions roaring for blood. Damn few if any would stand up to that sort of pressure. Most Christians are hypocrites, and what they "do for good" is to be seen doing good. Its all superficial posturing and shallow cliches. One fellow set and argued with me on and on, and said his faith would hold up in any case whatsoever. I then said - let us imagine a hypothetical situation. Your standing there. I am standing there. I lift up a loaded 44 magnum, pull back the hammer, put it to your head, and then tell you that you have 10 seconds to curse and deny God and Jesus and proclaim Satan is the Ruler of this World and bow down to Him and proclaim Him to be the only true god before I blow your head plumb off...your time starts now. Of course the fellow predictably said "I would stand faithful to Jesus to the end". I said then we have nothing left to say...because not only are you an utter fool, you are in all likelyhood a damned stupid lying fool as well. My God, iandiabhal you are the shit! Where & why are you not here all the time? I like the Colosseum reference. I am exalting this post as one of my personal favorites. I think you have a good grasp on the real world & the not so real, perfectly. May the fires of Cthulhu protect you. |
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Post by lokidreaming on Dec 4, 2010 22:24:26 GMT -6
To elaborate on my last post in this chain of posts concerning the hypothetical situation of a gun to my head and hammer cocked, well I know I have a 60/40 chance of surviving if I take immediate action to disarm that person with the gun to my head.
Why?
I have just gotten my feet firmly planted on the LHP this year and I have so much to do and so much to offer LHP and for me to die right now?
I rather fight to my last breath!
On the other hand, if I was tied to a stake or something like that, I would be defiant, not bow down and burn at the stake.
I know who I am.
I know what drives me.
I know what and who(m) I will die for.
I don't care if others do not believe me because 99% of people wouldn't do this and do that.
I am not those other 99% of people.
Belief IS Reality
Loki Dreaming
ps:- Do I start a new thread for my reedited essay?
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Post by lokidreaming on Dec 4, 2010 23:22:52 GMT -6
High Priest Venger Satanis
I shall be more careful with my spelling, grammar and structure of my esssays from now on.
Belief Is Reality
Loki Dreaming
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Post by iandiabhal on Dec 4, 2010 23:42:54 GMT -6
All very interesting responses.
Of course, it was a hypothetical example, that I used in a debate.
I plan on holding no gun to anyone's head to make them prove their belief or "faith", but the point of the exercise was to call the person I was debating with out and demonstrate, what I already knew.
Had the person been a bit more honest and said, "well I don't know what I would do" - because most people don't until such a situation happens, that would have been probably the most accurate and honest thing to have said.
He could have stated that he might say the words, to save his life - but not meant them and would still believe, then that would have been a more honest response - not just empty braggadocio, which it was.
I do not believe that even a fraction of Christians possess any real faith or belief in what they profess to believe so strongly.
I am a believer in putting your money where your mouth is, and consequently would not profess faith in things, that I truly did not believe in.
It is human nature. Most people want to live and save their skins.
It is ingrained in the human animal.
Of what use would it have been for the person to have held to a faith, and sacrificed themselves?
What purpose would it have served? Would it have saved any lives or property?
To have died - just to avoid saying some words?
I personally do not see strength in that act necessarily - but that is my own particular philosopical point of view.
There may be times that people may have to sacrifice themselves - in battle for instance to save the lives of ones buddies and fellows.
There is the distinction with me. There would be a very valid point or purpose to lay down one's life. One person's life saving the lives of 5 or 6 others.
This is a noble act, and usually something that people who do it - do without much debate. It isn't for big think political ideologies - but to save the lives of buddies who would probably do the same thing and who have your back during battle.
I apply this to the example. It would be far better to say the words, and have a chance at living and subsequently at active resistance - than just to have my brains blown out - for some "auto de fey" or a meaningless act of faith.
Martyrdom is not a noble thing in my mind. I dislike the smell of burning martyrs.
Is a mindless fanatic strong? Look at the Battle of Berlin.
There were Germans who fought to the death, for a cause that was already lost and defeated. Was it bravery? Or was it mindless, senseless stupidity?
You have to decide such things in your own mind.
I will comment some more on this, I was talking with someone else on a similar subject to this and I gave them an interesting quote from General Patton.
" I don't want to die for my country - I want to make the other bastard die for his country."
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Post by iandiabhal on Dec 5, 2010 0:31:10 GMT -6
"If you read the bible and really read between the lines Jesus wanted you to be equal to him, to become your own God"
Hmm. "What does the crucifix symbolize? Pallid incompetance hanging on a tree."
If he had really meant to become your "own God" by example then what was the rather unpleasant auto-sacrifice inate of?
Ah..if we all want to become our own "gods" we should be crucified and die?
No need to read between the lines of that. Personally I say, thanks - but no thanks.
We all will die in the normal course of events..why vigorously ask for it?
To what purpose?
Pallid incompetance indeed.
I would have thought he might have done his adherents and the Judeans more good by choosing to live, and lead them and booted the Romans the hell out of Judea, than to become a dead martyr nailed to a cross.
Look at the fortress of Masada..the Romans spent years laying siege to it, and wasted tons of manhours, materials and gold to support the effort..they finally burst in, and everyone had committed suicide.
However, that "sacrifice" was pretty much the end of the Roman occupation of Judea.
It had strategic value. It made the Romans reconsider the wisdom of occupying the country.
One man dying on a Roman cross had rather less value - for the average Judean.
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 5, 2010 13:06:30 GMT -6
All sacrifice, if done consciously, has strategic value.
Jesus didn't ask to be crucified, but he didn't run away from it either. Nor did he try to bargain or cut a deal. He did not compromise his sense of self, his beliefs, his destiny in the face of adversity. For me, that is a stronger indication of True Will than any I've seen in a Satanist.
Does that make Jesus Christ Satanic? Does it make him un-Satanic but still a part of our Left Hand Path lineage? This is the kind of thing I mean regarding the mechanicalness of Modern Satanism.
Shall we, each and every individual here, give in when faced with the ultimate determinate? Shall overwhelming opposition cause us to buckle or give up or recant? To sacrifice the illusory self in order to gain something precious in return, the transcendent self, might be unreasonable to most people... but I assure you the payment we make is worth the value we shall receive.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest
Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Dec 5, 2010 15:36:25 GMT -6
Shall we, each and every individual here, give in when faced with the ultimate determinate? Shall overwhelming opposition cause us to buckle or give up or recant? To sacrifice the illusory self in order to gain something precious in return, the transcendent self, might be unreasonable to most people... but I assure you the payment we make is worth the value we shall receive.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest
Cult of Cthulhu
I agree with you. The Self that you would be sacrificing if you buckle during an extreme opposition isn't the enlightened self. It is not about pride or stubbornness. It is about working diligently to observe your Self so that when faced with the decision to stand or kneel, you know which is most beneficial to the ultimate will of your enlightened Self. Awake! Apsara Kamalli Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu |
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Post by lokidreaming on Dec 7, 2010 2:15:31 GMT -6
"It is often pointed out that animals accept death gracefully, without fear or resistance.This is a beautiful concept, but one that hold only true in cases where death for the animal is unavoidable.
When an animal is sick of injured he will fight for his life with every strength he has left. It is this unshakeable will to live that, if man were not so "highly evolved," would also give him the fighting spirit he need to stay alive...Man has become lazy. He has learnt to take the easy way out..."
The Satanic Bible page 91
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Post by iandiabhal on Dec 7, 2010 15:02:34 GMT -6
Well here with respect of course, Venger I think your and my opinion diverge somewhat sharply.
I am a Satanist. Life is meaningful - and I am utterly and entirely selfish when it comes to preserving my life and have no guilt or compunction about it whatsoever.
Gotta be alive and kicking to enjoy the carnal pleasures of this world.
If Jesus would have been truly "Satanist" he would have been more concerned with preserving his hide and those of his "apostles" most of whom were rounded up later on, or had to hide for their lives like sewer rats, rather than throwing it away in my opinion.
As was pointed out animals do not throw their lives away for "priniciples" or "beliefs". It is for survival, breeding or defense of their young - which is basic instinctive preservation of the species.
While Jesus "sacrifice" may have been an act of will - possibly - it was for a quite deluded and poor reason from my point of view.
One could draw the comparison to taking over a jet airplane and flying it and all of the terrified passengers into a large skyscraper screaming "Allahu Akbar"...
That took some "will" certainly some cajones - or on the other hand - was it fueled by fanatic brainwashed stupidity?
Is this true will?
It has been cited Jesus "fulfilled" some prophecy..that he must have heard and been aware of.
OK, I'll bite. To start off, who exactly were these prophesies made by?
Pretty much exclusively human prophets who are supposedly channelling or transmitting "Gods Will" through "visions" or burning undergrowth or bushes.
Proof please?
I would say it is not will - but rather delusion and a surrender of one's will to other human agencies without any real objective proof of the act itself serving any real "higher purpose". Not much noble in that from my perspective.
The world's population has been suckered in and enslaved for centuries by this sort of claptrap for far too long. For instance we don't see the top of the echelon - the religious "leaders" the teachers, and imams leading by example - and sacrificing themselves in suicide missions now do we?
Imam is standing in unity behind you my brave Son..
Yes - at a safe distance of about 300 or 1500 kilometers behind you to be precise, setting cushy and comfortable with his 3 or 4 wives, with all of the modern conveniences, while you make the "Supreme Sacrifice" to Allah and shaheed and martyr yourself in the Holy Jihad against the "Great Satan".
I will set here getting laid and chilling out in the old harem in the meantime while you get along with your bad-ass self and go make that noble sacrifice - OK?
We'll light a candle in your memory and tie a yellow ribbon around the old palm tree..
Pffft.
If being "shaheed" for the faith is so noble, holy and great - and such splendid rewards and precious treasures are to be had in Paradise - then one must ask - why indeed aren't the priests and imams bravely heading up and leading the suicide charges?
Why indeed. C'mon. If anyone is nearing "Satanic" in this tale - it isn't the dead, but those left living. The imams cajole and trick the sheepish others into "nobly" sacrificing themselves, so they can hold on to their power, carnal pleasures, riches and position in life.
That sort of sacrifice is "will"? Not in my book - not by a long chalk.
More like peabrained idiocy and surrender of one's common sense.
I would propose another Satanic principia here - "Don't encourage others to acts that you are not willing to undertake yourself and don't listen to the call for a suicide charge from those not prepared to lead the suicide charge."
My main problem with it, is that the act sacrificing oneself on religious priniciples has been all too conveniently cited and manipulated over the centuries to confuse, delude, and then compel people into similarly "sacrificing" themselves - ostensibly for the "faith", when the "real" reason was less to do with "faith", than the preservation of power and hegemony of faith over the mortal faithful.
In other words it has nothing to do whatsoever, with "higher principles" even if those subjectively exist, but more objectively and most demonstratably, carnal and mortal principles of power and subjection of one's fellow humans and the perpetuation of that power.
That is the sum total of what Jesus "sacrifice" has perpetuated.
Institutionalized idiocy. Pallid incompetance.
That is not Satanic in any sense whatsoever in my opinion, as an example because it isn't thinking and doing that which is in your own rational self interests.
The logical clue my dear Watson, that it is isn't clever or noble is that more often than not the priest class of these religions are conveniently excused from most of the nasty unpleasant auto-sacrificial duties and bonzai suicide charges.
They have a spiffy handy-dandy, exclusive "hall-pass" from God, Jesus or Allah - of course - to spare their most valuable and wise hides in order to keep perpetuating the lies...or um..oops "faith".
Therein lies the root problem with sacrificing oneself for principles..
Who's principles? "God" or just some crafty carnal, mortal animal, who has conned and deluded you into thinking he speaks for "God"?
Principles are changing things, subject to changes in fickle mutable human perceptions.
Having your head lopped off in Tudor-era England for refusing to recant Catholicism is not "true will" but sheer stubborn jackass stupidity in my opinion.
Much the same as pulling the fuse on a suicide belt in a crowded market and blowing one's self to human hamburger - for the "faith".
Its just as utterly stupid. The brainwashed acts and rather un-notable, and quite un Satanic examples of weak-minded easily manipulated sheep and slaves.
I think the principle of sacrificing oneself to the "higher good" is complete and utter nonsense for the Satanist. The Satanist is concerned with the here and now - and be damned to any "rewards" real or imaginary that might or might not be waiting in the afterlife.
Being shaheed is so noble and great O Wise Imam?
Well you go first, and we will observe and consider how wise and noble your sacrifice was objectively and tactically speaking Enlightened One.
There are only a few things I would deem worthy of laying down my life for.
A buddy or my squad in the heat of battle, in defense of my own life or one of my close family members. Thats just about it.
Hail Satan!
Ia Cthulhu!
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Post by boksmutant on Dec 7, 2010 22:29:58 GMT -6
Faith can come in quite handy when in a pinch.
I remember the sensation Id feel in school after getting in fights. They were the dumb animals & I was the one having my convictions justified.
I was becoming stronger, while they were merely pushing themselves deeper into sleep.
I always felt that way when confronted by a threat.
But that was because I believed It put me in touch with my higher power or God what have you.
Christians, Muslims all these people have a decided advantage against a none believer because their God was a martyr. Pain & death are badges of honor to them.
Also they view themselves as always being tested, which again gives them an advantage on a number of levels against a non believer.
Ive felt that before during gang beating's lol(no body fought fair when I was young). When your lying on the ground with a dozen people kicking & stomping you, you actually have a lot time to think.
I know that sounds funny, but you can either lay there angerly thinking how fucked up life is, or if you have faith turn it into an empowering situation where the fool mortals are only making you stronger.
I know your thinking one does not need faith to feel as if there learning & becoming stronger; but your mind drifts specifically to images of your God smiling down on you. As if you are gaining more of a commonality with that God. Maybe becoming like God?
A dangerous & bad ass thing.
In fact that sounds a lot like self deification if you ask me.
Why not enjoy your last few seconds riding that deified moment. Shit, it might just be the greatest moment of your life to finally say fuck you! to this shit humanity & all the fear they caused you.
So I don't think a person would be lying in that moment to themselves. There's to much going on.
Awake!
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Post by lokidreaming on Dec 7, 2010 23:47:58 GMT -6
Iandiabhal,
I apologize that I didn't make it clear. i understand your point and it makes sense.
The context I was trying to make, was in the context of my life and the decisions I have made and will choose to make due to who I am and where my interests lie.
I know there will be a chance I will die due to these interests of mine
What I was trying to say, I am a person who is living my life to the best I can and not holding back as I never know when my last day on eath is. I have made peace with my death even before I died and due to my progress on the occult path I have already died and have been reborn and am transforming slowly into the magnificent beast that I am.
Even though I have made peace with the decisions that I know I will make in the future that might lead to my early death, I am going to fight to my last breath and do everthying I can to prolong my eraly death, hence why I am studying mag krava and stuff like that.
Metaphorically speaking I have looked down the barrell of the gun enough times and I know I shall be pyhsically looking into the barrell of one in time and when I do I shall looking down at it over and over agian.
I am being cyrptic I admit, I have learnt not to share certain intersts of mine unless that person also shares the same interest(s).
Belief IS Reality
Loki Dreaming
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 8, 2010 14:58:14 GMT -6
I don't see these two examples as the same thing. The former was a true sacrifice in every sense of the word, the latter was simply the end justifies the means by terrorism. But let us look at the results. Jesus inspired an entire religion, which I have to admit, keeps descending Octaves every single century that goes by... for the majority of Christians. Meanwhile, 9/11 spawned an immediate military reprisal leading to a decade of foreign occupation and war for the terrorists' home countries all for trying to make a point.
Who won that contest?
Actually, there were prophecies of a Messiah before he came. However, Jesus Christ did not fulfill them. The Messiah was said to be a great warrior who would free the Jews from Roman authority. As we all know, Jesus didn't lead an army. His teaching also flew in the face of orthodox Judaism of the day. Which is why he was condemned to death with Jewish blessings.
Again, it sounds to me like we're talking about two very different things that have a vague similarity to each other... lemons and limes.
I would not expect anyone to make a sacrifice that I am not also willing to take. In fact, I expect to be the first to give up my flesh on principle, not the last... unlike most religious leaders.
The here and now is also the past and future. They are interconnected. Personally, I feel somewhat liberated by the fact that who I am (or was) in this world, as well as, the world itself is little more than a complex and extremely convincing fabrication.
Let me ask you this, Ian. Aside from a buddy, family, or your squad, would you lay down your life for freedom, truth, peace, justice, or love? Would your answer be different if you were younger or older? In better health or worse? Locked in a prison or living as Hugh Hefner? Where is the line drawn? What about to end world hunger? Would you at least risk your life for money, hope, power, or revenge? How much risk? Do you believe in any possible afterlife? The answer to all these questions, which may remain rhetorical, should probably leave us with a gray area, neither black nor white.
After we've said all we care to say on the subject, whenever that might be, it's fine to disagree. My perspective is my own, and I don't expect everyone to share it. Nor do I look condescendingly upon an alternative viewpoint or the individual who espouses it. To each their own.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest
Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by iandiabhal on Dec 8, 2010 20:39:37 GMT -6
Fair questions, and I will endeavor to give you honest answers from my own particular perspective. I have no problem with it whatsoever.
I don't see these two examples as the same thing. The former was a true sacrifice in every sense of the word, the latter was simply the end justifies the means by terrorism. But let us look at the results. Jesus inspired an entire religion, which I have to admit, keeps descending Octaves every single century that goes by... for the majority of Christians. Meanwhile, 9/11 spawned an immediate military reprisal leading to a decade of foreign occupation and war for the terrorists' home countries all for trying to make a point. Who won that contest?
Ian> I disagree. You said Jesus death was prophesied earlier - yes - but by whom? - men, thats who.
Jesus knew of these prophesies..well so did Herod, who also thought he was the Messiah as well.
To the question of who "won"? The military industrial complex.
Seriously. I don't think we really wanted to "win" nor defeat the terrorists - if we had, this would have been over long before now.
Who won? The weak-willed.
Those that worry too much about what the "rest of the world" might think.
Had my hand been on the controls, the contest would have been over on 9/14, and the true and real enemies would be vaporized corpses lying in smoking, smoldering radioactive ruins. Sure would have saved a lot of time, money and lives - in the past as well as in the near future I would presume, as well as put other nations on notice - that we were not going to be trifled with or attacked in our homeland - without terrible and ruinous consequences.
Let me ask you this, Ian. Aside from a buddy, family, or your squad, would you lay down your life for freedom, truth, peace, justice, or love?
Ian> No. The terms "freedom, truth, peace, justice, or love" are matters of subjectively observed altruisms as well as relativistic terms.
As an example if I am fighting in combat, I would not be thinking of patriotism, truth etc..I would be looking after myself, my buddies and would actively be seeking to kill the enemy before he killed me. If that helps the larger priniciple along - so be it - but that larger principle would not be what would compel me to fight and kill.
Again, as Patton noted, "I don't want to die for my country, I want to make the other bastard die for his country"
Would your answer be different if you were younger or older? In better health or worse? Locked in a prison or living as Hugh Hefner?
Ian> No, In fact after 37 years of being a Satanist, I can say my mind is more solid now on the matter that in was in my younger years.
Whether I was locked up in prison or in the Playboy mansion, I would still want to live.
Where is the line drawn? What about to end world hunger?
Ian> Again an altruistic notion and a relativism..You aren't going to end "world hunger", in all likelyhood, it being an endemic thing, and probably especially not in dying - unless perhaps you were killed by cannibals, and even then you wouldn't make more than a week or so worth of nourishing meals. Simple logic would show that one wished to even vaguely improve the world hunger situation, it is going to be in being alive and actively engaged in doing so, not buried in a grave.
Would you at least risk your life for money, hope, power, or revenge?
Ian> Possibly. But I would choose to carefully weigh the risks, with any potential gains.
How much risk?
Ian> I will give you the rather arcane formula that I use. It is from the Sunzi Binfa, but for me there is much logical wisdom contained within the axiom.
"In respect of military method, we have, firstly, Measurement; secondly, Estimation of quantity; thirdly, Calculation; fourthly, Balancing of chances; fifthly, Victory.
Measurement owes its existence to Earth; Estimation of quantity to Measurement; Calculation to Estimation of quantity; Balancing of chances to Calculation; and Victory to Balancing of chances."
Do you believe in any possible afterlife?
Ian> Well, I have comparatively studied many religions and I could say that subjectively I may have some belief in an afterlife - however I cannot objectively state what that afterlife may or may not consist of.
This is the critical point. I have no concrete or irefutable proof of it one way or the other.
If I spent my life in one particular mindset believing the afterlife was going to be exactly one specific scenario - and patterned my life in some abstemious or ascetic fashion around that belief, and then at death found out I was entirely wrong - then would not I have wasted potential?
Answer here is simple for me - live for the flesh, and the carnal pleasures it offers while you inhabit the flesh - and worry about and contemplate the afterlife when you get there. As I believe Nero said about the afterlife "Let it be wonderful or let it be awful, just don't let it be ordinary."
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Post by lokidreaming on Dec 8, 2010 23:35:22 GMT -6
Who won the war?
At the moment the American government not the military. The situation in the middle east was made worst due to the American goverment dictating what the army could and could not do which frustrated the hell out of the american army.
The american army is the american governments little bitch. I am disgusted how the american government has treated their army and how they threw the american army under the bus due to their PR campagins to save their own arse by their pathetic smear campaigns and I'm equally pissed off with dim witted people who can't see past the smoke and mirrors!!
This is a very sensitive subject, during the last ten years I have slowly and gradually thrown my support to the american army in the middle east. I admit when 9/11 by Michael Moore came out I was a heavy advocated of it. I'm cringing now.
One of the turning points for me was when George W Bush went for second term in office, everyone and everyone here in New Zealand was like go John Kerry and I also had this nagging feeling something was wrong. Then I figured it out, having John Kerry as President is wrong. Imagine all the damage the militants would cause by testing out the new goverment and President, I rather George W Bush stay in as it would cause less damage in the long run.
And I was the only one going round that I know of rooting for George W Bush to get back in.
Then another defining moment which lead me to support the troops more, was even though yes invading middle east situation was wrong, removing the troops from the middle east would be disasterous. If the troops was removed at the wrong time their be a good chance that the militants would take over and all the troop deaths up until the point of troop withdrawl would have been for nothing.
So as I am writing this post, my rage is boiling up to those still going anti war and bring back the troops!! I just want to knock some sense into them.
I also have to admit that I was a member of Amnesty Internationl for quite a few years, after 9/11 everything cahnged for me mentally. I no longer support Amnesty Internationl, Green Peace, Peace Rallies or Anit Racist Marches as they all see one side of the story.
9/11 and its aftermath taught me to learn to look at all the possible angles possible before coming up with a final end conclusion.
The military industrial complex won the war ? WTF? When its the american government and their PR machine that won?
Who won? The weak willed.
I'm confused? Why do majoirty of people think that? When those statements 99.9% can be proven false!!
eg, Th South lost the American War due to them being weaked willed. What utter beebing bullshit. Ther South only lost due to the public popularity of the anti slave movent and that the North was more organized and crafty than the south while the south was running round like headless chickens, the south wern't weak willed there were just not as organized as the north and did not ahve as much support as the north
"No, In fact after 37 years of being a Satanist, I can say my mind is more solid now on the matter that in was in my younger years."
I can say my mind is more solid and I am more sure of myself and of certain convictions and some convictions I have discarded as they have proven been proven wrong. I know due to the experiences of my life and my convictions I have changed serveral times as a person.
And when I become a Satanist for 37 years like you I know my mind will even be more solid and I am more sure of myself and of certain convictions and some convictions I have had would once more discarded as they have proven been proven wrong or a hinderance. I know due to the experiences of my life and my convictions I would have changed several times again as a person.
I have leant painfully sometimes holding into certain convictions is a hinderance to ones growth. I have also in turn learnt due to other materials which I was required to study the importance of learning when to drop an occult way of doing things as it is a hinderance to my learning and growth and how far I can transform to my true nature and being.
eg, Blessed are the strong, for they shall process the earth
Curesed are the weak, for they shall inherit the yoke!
If I was to use this on every situation to describe everthing to do with war and weak idiots, I am not going to get far and most people are going to misunderstand me from the get go. Therefore I would have wasted time trying to get my point across again when I could have been using that time for something more construtcive.
Lastly, I have learnt personally the worst kinds of boxes to be put in are the ones that you create for yourself and put yourself in.
So I don't understand why people go look I have been a blah blah for so many years and spit out SATANIC VERSES.
"LIVE IT and BREATH IT and LEAD BY EXAMPLE and HELP THOSE WHO ARE STRUGGLING."
I choose to say I'm a SATANIST and when asked more what type of SATANIST I am, I say SPIRITUAL aka CHAOS SATAINIST. I do this due to it helps the other person better get an image and impression of me and where I stand.
I know that just labelling myself as a SATANIST limits me as an occultist.
I am using labels others have created to decribe me to my advantage.
Ian
Peace Out Brother
Belief Is Reality
Loki Dreaming
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Post by iandiabhal on Dec 9, 2010 14:31:28 GMT -6
Who won? The weak willed.
I'm confused? Why do majoirty of people think that? When those statements 99.9% can be proven false!!
Ian> Quite honestly some your remarks show your youthful naivete.
Not a bad thing...but naive nonetheless.
Don't see how the military industrial complex "won"?
Surely you jest...in big fat multi-billion dollar contracts and budgets.
No one has "won" anything Loki.
Any "victory" is still subjective as of this moment.
This is not a normal "war".
It is an assymetrical war or war of attrition - if it can be called even that.
There are no pitched large asset battles - like tank against tank.
It is an extremist "bug hunt" in essence.
The minute we completely leave Iraq as in ALL combat forces and no more funding and our hands off the oil reserves there, I can almost guarantee anything we have made, or built or propped up will he hauled right down.
Same thing in Afghanistan. They will simply go back to their millenia-old tribal ways and customs.
Who there will want to keep the what the hated US invaders brought?
We had no business in involving ourselves there - because we lack the will to truly prevail there - that is to be as utterly ruthless as they would be if they had or enjoyed the advantage we did.
Weak will.
Do you think they would hesitate for a moment to nuke a US city if they could? No.
All we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan is created a whole generation of people with a burning resentment of the US.
More Osama bin Ladins.
When I say the "weak willed" won - I mean it in the idea of we did not go far enough.
We did not employ enough overwhelming force - when, where and to whom it should have been applied.
As far as Al Qaida, in the beginning we had bin Ladin holed up in Afghanistan early on.
We should have used low yield tactical nuclear weapons to have created a "killing field" around his hideout and lair. That would have been the end of that. After that we could have just killed anything that popped its head up or showed up with radiation poisoning. Personally, rather than using bunker busters, I would have rolled a metric short ton of Sarin GB nerve gas in and have gassed the entire lot of the cockroaches in those caves. Or perhaps all of the above.
However, all of those tactical considerations aside the real strategic problem is not Al Qaida nor "Muslim extremists", as you and most of the public have been duped into believing.
It was and continues to be as I know and as anyone who had even done a cursory study of the problem would have known. The real problem is the rich and powerful mullahs in Saudi Arabia.
They financed 9/11. They probably financed the attacks in Spain and London. The terrorists that led the attacks originated from mainly Saudi Arabia, they have funded and continue to fund the activities of Al Qaida cells from behind the scenes.
Yet here we set 10 years later on our wild and expensive extremist "goose chase" turning US airports into Federally Funded Fondling areas with Porno TV in some ridiculous and dubious attempt to "catch the boogeymen".
Seeing the picture yet here?
This is why we have done so little in 10 years. Lack of will.
In my own opinion our "adventure" into Iraq was colonialism pure and simple. There were no national security issues or WMD there, and that is a fact.
It was to control the oil there by eradicating Saddam Hussein with extreme prejudice.
Funny we were able to capture him, who hada hell of a lot more revenue, state resources etc..but we still just can't manage to capture or kill bin Ladin. Defies belief.
I think someone should just have enough nuts to pony up to the obvious fact.
All we have done thusfar is to chop at the tail of the monster, rather than lopping its damn head off.
Cut the head off.
If we did that, groups like Al Qaida and the Islamic Jihad cells in the West Bank and Ramallah would cease to exist without funding, logistics and a supply line and their ideological and strategic handlers.
You go back Loki and read the Sunzi Binfa - The Art of War - from cover to cover and contemplate what wise old Sun Tzu meant and then apply the axioms to this situation - and yes, it is utterly and wholly applicable, and you may see it in a different light.
I read it quite frequently..
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Post by iandiabhal on Dec 9, 2010 14:48:26 GMT -6
And my friend you are also incorrect about the US Civil War.
The reason the South lost was not because of "anti-slave" sentiments - that was not even hardly a deciding factor, it was because the South lacked the industrial resources that the North possessed - right from the beginning.
In essence the South bit off more than it could chew right from the beginning.
They relied too heavily on being able to import industrial supplies from England and outside of the US which the US Federal navy was able to successfully blockade and stop the supply of.
They didn't think of the long haul, and were ill-prepared for what the North finally was able to mobilize against them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2010 15:30:08 GMT -6
And my friend you are also incorrect about the US Civil War. The reason the South lost was not because of "anti-slave" sentiments - that was not even hardly a deciding factor, it was because the South lacked the industrial resources that the North possessed - right from the beginning. In essence the South bit off more than it could chew right from the beginning. They relied too heavily on being able to import industrial supplies from England and outside of the US which the US Federal navy was able to successfully blockade and stop the supply of. They didn't think of the long haul, and were ill-prepared for what the North finally was able to mobilize against them. Let's not forget the crushing numerical superiority of the North... Awake. |
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Post by iandiabhal on Dec 9, 2010 15:33:48 GMT -6
I will add this last observation Loki. You seem to be confused and searching for what you believe and in forming some subjective synthesis of it all. You spoke of being "trapped in a box". Perhaps it is you that is trapped in that box.
I do not mean this as a putdown..but as a friendly observation.
Though tenacity, will, trial, failure, success, stubborness, gnosis, and believing nothing and testing everything, is how I arrived at what I believe in.
Incorporating and synthesizing that which works, and discarding that which does not work and is not sound.
My own subjective synthesis is sound, because it has been arrived at through vigorous testing and trial.
I believe "faith" to be for mindless sheep, who will be sheared and "fleeced" by their masters.
As Mr. Crowley noted - The Slaves shall Serve.
I take NOTHING on faith.
It may not work for you nor any other person, but it works for me. I am not here to save the world nor solve its "ills".
In truth I could care less about the ills or problems of the world because I am a selfish person and am honest about it.
There will always be ills, problems and conflicts as long as man inhabits the earth..hasn't changed in 10,000 years, and its highly unlikely it will change significantly in another 10,000.
I am here to enjoy life and the pleasures of the flesh, and do my will as I see fit.
After you have been at this, for 30 odd years, we will be able to see with more objectivity and clarity what you truly believe in.
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 9, 2010 17:41:33 GMT -6
Maybe I should change the name of this thread to The War Diaries?
Anyways, I believe there are plenty of things worth killing and dying for. I will not let this world's illusion force me down it's tawdry, narrow street. My hideous dreams cannot be contained by this reality, and I'll continue to stake my life on it.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest
Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by lokidreaming on Dec 9, 2010 22:14:45 GMT -6
Poow Poow Poow First of all I would like apologize for my misunderstanding and assuming you did not know much about the middle east and that you were one of those raving southerners secondly I am well read and versed of the situation in the middle east and the american wars , the points both you and I discuss are only a few angles of the middle east situation. I skimped on the details as I assumed you wouldn't have the faintest clue what I was going on about. Another error on my part. I would like to remind you that the seed(s) of the current problems in the middle east were planted a long time ago at least 100-200 years ago. I even wrote an unfinished essay called Is the Western World To Blame For The Current State of Middle East? My essay was referring to all the rich Europeans in the late 1800s and early 1900s traveling to places like Egypt, Morocco and Middle East and just acting like druken idiots with no respect for the locals and the local customs. I'm also aware of Americas and British influence in the Middle East and how they help create some of the countries there, so I was thinking is that when the hate really started to settle in in the middle east against the foreigners (WESTERN WORLD)? And was the the beginning seeds of the militant movement against the WESTERN WORLD? Or were a few of those seeds go way back even futher? Then you have got all the middle east history to consider up until the 1st gulf war and the american and world reactions etc etc eg, Th South lost the American War due to them being weaked willed. What utter beebing bullshit. Ther South only lost due to the public popularity of the anti slave movent and that the North was more organized and crafty than the south while the south was running round like headless chickens, the south wern't weak willed there were just not as organized as the north and did not ahve as much support as the north And my friend you are also incorrect about the US Civil War. The reason the South lost was not because of "anti-slave" sentiments - that was not even hardly a deciding factor, it was because the South lacked the industrial resources that the North possessed - right from the beginning. In essence the South bit off more than it could chew right from the beginning. They relied too heavily on being able to import industrial supplies from England and outside of the US which the US Federal navy was able to successfully blockade and stop the supply of. They didn't think of the long haul, and were ill-prepared for what the North finally was able to mobilize against them. What you said in response to my post what I had in my head by what I was saying about the south running around like headless chickens. Once again I skimpped out on the detaiks of what I was trying to expalin. In order for the army to win, the ruler must let the general have full control and a centralized system chain of command, trust him and let him be. The army won't win unless they have the support of the people, yes I agree at the end of the day the support of the people aka popularity of the anti-slavery did not matter, hoewever it was a major infulence on the war due to the mentality are you with us or are against us and peoples indecision to choose a side and waiting to see who is going to come out on top for whatever reasons. Also with the americans war it is also a complicated subject which requires alot of study of all the angles. I admit I haven't read The Art of War for a while, so I need to re-read it again to cross the Ts. I am beginning to understand how much The Art of War has influenced you. I once again apologize coming to false assumptions about what you know and do not know. I have had a crash course in the fouth way today. iandiabhal Peace Out Brother Belief Is Reality Loki Dreaming ps:- I'm a huge fan of shows like Decisive Battles and was wandering if you were too? pss:- Venger Satanis:- Any chance you could set up a new discussion column? board? As I have no idea where to stick stuff like The Art of War and battle tactics expect for general or philosophy. |
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Post by lokidreaming on Dec 10, 2010 0:43:09 GMT -6
I will add this last observation Loki. You seem to be confused and searching for what you believe and in forming some subjective synthesis of it all. You spoke of being "trapped in a box". Perhaps it is you that is trapped in that box. I do not mean this as a putdown..but as a friendly observation.. iandiabhal You really have me got me thinking and staring at the screen blankly. I should stop trying so hard is the first thing that comes to mind. I have always felt that in order to succed in life and to be taken seriously by anyone is to work twice as hard as anyone to prove myself over and over again, especially the last 5-6years. Back them I was your typical shot haired hard working asian. Then fully jumped onto the metal wagon, so now I have a patnera style hiar, tattoos, piercings and facial hair. People are more scared of the fact at first impression that I belong to an asian mafia than of my rock and metal dress code. I also am not close to my own race or family and am a bit disgusted by how most ethnick people can't look past their own skin colour and have to place the race card or hide behind their own skin colour or give up and just be the westernised asian the world expects them to be; Skrewdriver is one of my favourite bands due to bad experiences with my own kind. Even though I'm mostly gay, I have nothing much to do with the gay community as they also look at me weird and expect me to be bloody camp like them. I only assocciate with gay people who have the same speical interests as me. And a hetrosexual person needs to prove to me time and time again until I am statified that they don't have a problem with my sexuality as someone can say they don't have a problem, but the body language never lies. I have been thrown under the bus enough times by hetrosexuals in my life. All my confidants in this are of life are bisexuals and they fucking sexy (both sexes included). My occult path, the only trouble is finding time and a practical place to do practical work and dealing with annoying people going I have to choose all the time which side I'm on, as my friend wisely advise me last weekend don't be more evil or try to be more evil on the occult path for whatever reason as I be making a huge mistake. I admit I'm still what I term a SHADOWALKER. When its the right time to choose then I will choose, so I am a bit annoyed by those accussing me of being a fence sitter while at the same time advising to me to do what is right for me. And I feel at time on the occult path I feel like I have to prove myself more than the average individual as I can at times fit into what other occultists describes as bottom of barrell stuff, eg, former christain, metal head, wear black all the time etc etc lol I am sure of myself and who I am as a person, its other people that drives me mental by their expectations of me. I fell like at times I'm fighting fires everywhere around me. I am full of frustraion not full of confusion. I have been taking active steps all year this year to remedey these frustrations. forming some subjective synthesis of it all. 1)I am first of all on the occult path as an Occult Philosopher and Reasearcher, so indeed I am trying to make sense of it all. 2) COC is like a new system so I am trying to shuffle around the data already in my head with the new COC stuff. 3) Most importantly more pro active action on my part with the practical occult stuff. Belief Is Reality Loki Dreaming |
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Post by iandiabhal on Dec 10, 2010 2:06:55 GMT -6
Loki, its all good.
I feel like we have gone all around the poles, and truly the last three points you put here are among the most clear.
We aren't at loggerheads.
Like with Venger, there are many things I agree with him on, and a few points we may disagree on - doesn't matter. Whatever disagreement I may have also takes into account we have different life experiences so, it equals out.
Same with you. We might not agree on everything in particular- and at other times we may find much to agree on. Personally, I would rather focus on the things we agree on in common, than go on about subjective differences, and aesthetics. I have been around Left Hand path folks and Satanists long enough, to recognize that you aren't going to get everyone to agree on every single thing.. I don't mind a debate however, if it has some logical point or outcome, and isn't just shitslinging and empty posturing.
I think as long as we agree to disagree with a measure or modicum of courtesy, everything will work out fine.
I like what is happening here.
It is high fucking time, something new, and some fresh thought came along into the Left Hand Path.
You realize you have work to do. I have work to do with myself, as I am sure Venger and everyone else in here does.
The work and learning never stop.
I am not setting in an ivory-tower locked into a particular mindset..I may reiterate time and again I am a Satanist, but I am not afraid to work with other systems - and I happen to have a particular preference for the COC paradigm, and what I see occuring here. It is- as you say - a new system. It is evolving.
We, are making it evolve as we work upon awakening ourselves.
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Post by lokidreaming on Dec 10, 2010 5:53:10 GMT -6
Cheers for that iandiabhal
I'm just frustrated at the moment that I can't move forward at the moment in the driections I want. I've wanted to quit my Diploma so many times this year. Being stuck in a backpackers to I finsih course at end of January is driving me bonkers. I know the right move is to do as much as my current situations allows me in my occult path and finish my Diploma then take it from there.
Belief Is Reality
Loki Dreaming
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