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Post by chelle on Jun 29, 2009 16:27:45 GMT -6
I think that we would have to break it down first in seeing how many woman vs men are in "pagan or occult" paths. Then ask a couple of these women, why are they RHP and not LHP. You will find like a lot of people in general that women who identify with a Goddess based faith find themselves comfortable in it and dont evolve or grow from there. A lot of women I know just didnt think about LHP philosophy until they talked to Sin. The most common response i get from women I know is "You know technically, I already think a lot like Sin and agree with her ideals" But they seem to not want to take that final step and say that they are LHP or anything. Hell, I myself just call myself a Satenist (look it up on urban dictionary) the only reason i do that is because i am still getting my feet wet in all of this and I am basically a noob.
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Post by LostSoul on Jun 29, 2009 22:22:02 GMT -6
First, welcome Chelle.
Second; I am intrigued by your comments regarding women involved in Goddess-based faiths. You seem to be "suggesting" that such a spirtual path leaves one incapable of "evolving" further...Or, are you suggesting that "those women" are incapable of evolving because of WHO they are?
I would appreciate a discussion of this, at your conveience...
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Post by sin on Jun 30, 2009 7:30:18 GMT -6
Good call LostSoul, I spoke to Chelle in length about this subject on the phone last night. I think she's just having difficulty articulating her ideas. I don't think it's fair to say that women in Goddess-based systems are stunted, nor should they choose between being Right-handed or Left-handed. The Allee's wrote a book about their Shadow Tradition called 'Left and Right of Center' and it focuses on taking a middle-ground. Not leaning too far right, or too far left. In essence, dualism is destroyed. What is shadow after all but a bending of the light? Generally speaking, I don't think people really sort all their ideas that way. Left and Right. At closer examination, we could certainly dissect a person and say "Well that right there, that's right-handed thought, and this? This is left-handed thought. We all carry both left and right ideas, but some of us are more carnal and considered more left than right. It's a perception and interpretation issue. We are human, and we conceptualize ideas such as the tantric division of left and right thought. When discussing the 'comfort' issue with Chelle. She seemed to think that women just get comfortable in the ideas they hold, and they don't branch out. This is why we don't see that many women in the 'occult' vs. the New Age movement. There are plenty of Neo-Pagan systems that are dominated by women, but LHP systems are dominated by men - and I want to examine why that is. There's no question that men and women are different animals, but there seems to be a certain 'type' of woman who is drawn to the macabre and LHP thought, occult and cults specifically. That's what I'm trying to identify. What is the draw for women? What turns women off about it? I have noticed that exposure is an issue. Women are not exposed to some ideas, so they are just widely unaware of them to even form a judgment. But, why aren't they looking? Why are men actively looking for something hidden in the dark, while women are turning the lights on? This discussion on Paganspace gives 'some' insights into how women examine the occult, and what they 'think about' when examining the CoC specifically: www.paganspace.net/forum/topics/1342861:Topic:622441?x=1&id=1342861%3ATopic%3A622441&page=4#commentsI'm still gathering data. I'm hoping to compile enough to put together the article for the next issue of the Green Trapezoid (September).
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Post by chelle on Jun 30, 2009 14:31:40 GMT -6
First, welcome Chelle. Second; I am intrigued by your comments regarding women involved in Goddess-based faiths. You seem to be "suggesting" that such a spirtual path leaves one incapable of "evolving" further...Or, are you suggesting that "those women" are incapable of evolving because of WHO they are? I would appreciate a discussion of this, at your conveience... Thank you for the welcome! First a person no matter male or female have an opportunity to evolve and move on to bigger and better things. But a lot of people don't. It doesn't matter what gender. Since we are talking about women though, i was just stating what I have seen in our lil pagan community. Women find something that they identify with (wicca, fairy magic, etc etc) and that's is enough for them they stop looking. The same can be said for some men as well. If you are happy and comfortable why change it? remember "If it aint broke don't fix it."
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Post by whatsupable on Jul 16, 2009 8:35:14 GMT -6
Thank you for the welcome! First a person no matter male or female have an opportunity to evolve and move on to bigger and better things. But a lot of people don't. It doesn't matter what gender. Since we are talking about women though, i was just stating what I have seen in our lil pagan community. Women find something that they identify with (wicca, fairy magic, etc etc) and that's is enough for them they stop looking. The same can be said for some men as well. If you are happy and comfortable why change it? remember "If it aint broke don't fix it." [/quote] welcome to the forum hope you enjoy your time here my thought about the lack of getting better isn't just for one gender i experience it for myself to that is why i have to keep looking at myself my thoughts and see those I's that want to work and hold that feeling in growing. ia ia
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Post by sin on Jul 16, 2009 10:59:00 GMT -6
welcome to the forum hope you enjoy your time here my thought about the lack of getting better isn't just for one gender i experience it for myself to that is why i have to keep looking at myself my thoughts and see those I's that want to work and hold that feeling in growing. ia ia For understanding sake, you could identify your I's by 'female' to 'male' identity. In example, I personally identify with more 'male' (masculine) qualities than I do 'female' (feminine). When an I is holding me back, it's generally a female I. The I that takes control, and gets me back on track is most definitely male. My female I's can be wishy-washy, overly-emotional, impractical, and not steadfast. Some believe me to be a misogynist in that regard - and perhaps it's true in some regard. I am a woman, that is fighting my feminine qualities. At least psychologically. It is based on experience with my own I's as well as the women around me. For the most part, I detest women. The paradox is, I am by every measure a woman - so is it a form a self-loathing? On one level, it could be perceived as that - but I love every particle of myself, even when I'm being difficult and defeating my focused I's. Battles within, are my Jihad, Mein Kampf - it's what gives my life meaning.
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Post by jessymessy2202 on Mar 4, 2010 20:49:59 GMT -6
I going out on a thought, but my guess on why there is less women in the cult is do to fear. That christins put out movies like Rosemarry's child that deals with a mother and her child offered up to satan. Bless the child sort of like that. mostly women are the ones who get attack, because of are weakness physicly and mentlly through the love we have for children, who are often protrade as victumes of sexual ritual abuse or sacrafice. I haven't been in the cult for long and I'm kind of a newbie, but thats just my two cents.
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Post by egodiabolus on Mar 5, 2010 11:12:08 GMT -6
Women are one of my favorite subjects of discussion and observation, and I especially enjoy women with the strength of character and individualism to pursue interests in the occult. Sadly, the male-to-female ratio of admitted practitioners of the occult is vastly disproportionate. I do not believe that this is do to lack of ability in the female gender; history is full of examples of female occultists, mediums, seers, and witches. I also do not attribute this to some kind of fear of the occult inherent to women; women seem to me to be more naturally inclined to the practices that are the foundation of the occult (subterfuge, misdirection, sex-appeal, emotional manipulation, empathy, etc.). This natural ability is, however, at the root of one of the reasons I believe that women do not outwardly engage in the occult and the Left Hand Path.
The first reason I believe women are not as inclined to openly pursue the occult as men has to do with the nature of their gender. While this may be painting each gender with a broad brush, I believe that this reason is rooted in women's tendency toward introversion. Women are receptacles of attention. They seek attention in subtle (or less direct) ways, and look for attention where they are most apt to be successful in its pursuit. This means that they are drawn toward mainstream circles and concepts because that is where the majority of people have their attention focused. It is not a matter of simply following the herd, but rather the thing they are hunting for can be found more readily where the herd is thickest.
Men, on the other hand, are extroverts. They also seek attention, but only so they can locate a receiver for the attentions they wish to offer another. This means that men want to stand out, so the inclination is to move away from the herd, especially if they find they have difficulty standing out while in it. Men either seek a position of dominance within the herd or seek the fringe; the more difficulty they have getting recognition within the herd the further out from it they will go. Since women are being "sought" and men are "seeking", women do not suffer the disadvantages of the herd that men do, while their options decrease the further from the center that they move, socially.
Most of life breaks down to people being lead around by their genitals.
Men also gravitate toward the occult in a search for power. Women are born with power (again, they have what is being sought, thus they can sit back and let most things come to them). Manipulation is a part of their sex, ingrained into their genetics and re-enforced by social standards. A male who needs something but lacks the mundane means to achieve it may turn to the occult. A woman who needs something but lacks the mundane means to achieve it need only turn to a man who has it.
Every woman is born a witch.
This brings me to my next reason why women are not inclined to openly study the occult. Society at large recognizes the inherent power of the female gender, and has strived to curtail that power. Women are taught to fear their flesh, that it is wrong to be manipulative (even though it cannot be avoided), that using their sex for personal gain is "evil" and makes them a "whore". This is the Great Con that has been played against the female gender and has lead to the pathetic mating rituals we each suffer by as adults. Women are taught to avoid the occult and to cling to the mundane because a female student of the occult who is truly unbound from the social fetters placed on her gender is too efficient a tool... too much power in the hands of one being for society to tolerate.
Rare is a woman who dabbles in the occult openly. Rarer still are these creatures that drink deep in their own power and enjoy the wanton lusts, furies, hysterias, and passions that is their true potential. EVERY woman I have come across in my travels, from the most introverted church-mouse to the raging BDSM witch has always had some limitation, some irrational fear of themselves, that I have had to drag them past... but once that occurs they tend to look to the person that pushed them as a teacher or an adversary, no longer seeking for themselves their potentials but waiting for the next test to be set before them by another. When that happens, then what is the point?
It is socially-strategy inherent to their gender and social-pressure because of their potential power that keeps women from openly practicing the occult. What they do in secret (even as hidden from themselves) is wholly another matter.
By His loathsome tentacles!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by A'Zodul F'eid on Mar 9, 2010 22:28:42 GMT -6
I hate to say this because it is uncharacteristically ignorant of me but I only bothered to read a handful of the pots before responding. Normally, I like to get a good feel for the discussion before throwing a gauntlet. So I apologize for not taking normal interest in some probably worthwhile statements.
I find the entire discussion a bit demeaning to me. I'm sure some of you have great arguments for differences of the sexes or whatnot, but to me it sounds like poppycock. People are people. Cultists are cultists. The gender ratio isn't an interesting fact to me. I'd like to think I'm gender blind, or that I at least don't obsess over it like so many man haters or woman haters tend to. Society teaches us that "Men are dirty" or "Women wear dresses and make up," but these things are devoid of any biological or inherent psychological meaning. To Cthulhu we are all sleeping meat sacks who struggle to attain a self amid a torrent of society's feces. The last thing we need is to reduce ourselves to discussing some triviality of gender playing a role in liking Lovecraft Mythos.
Awake!
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Post by egodiabolus on Mar 10, 2010 12:30:29 GMT -6
I hate to say this because it is uncharacteristically ignorant of me but I only bothered to read a handful of the pots before responding. Normally, I like to get a good feel for the discussion before throwing a gauntlet. So I apologize for not taking normal interest in some probably worthwhile statements.
I would then recommend reading all the posts. Some of the opinions on this topic are reflective of a very narrow opinion of gender roles, while others offer a broader perspective.
I am not certain how this is demeaning to you. You are not directly named in the discussion, and it is, after all, just a sharing of opinions about a topic that is of interest to some of us. If it is not of interest to you, why bother responding?
Again, I recommend reading through all the posts. No one is bashing one gender or another, merely discussing the differences between the genders (like it or not, men and women are different) in respect to the occult community. If you are "gender blind", then you are not only in the minority here, but also at a distinct disadvantage in regards to occult practices and magic. Gender plays a significant role in magic; understanding the biological drives and predispositions of not only other genders but also your own will add depth and greater potential to your efforts.
But, you are entitled to your opinion.
You are absolutely correct, the opinions of our general society are often not based on biology or psychology, but what we are discussing may have a root cause in those areas. Again, I don't think inferiority exists in any gender, but there are differences in perspective and method.
For example; women sit differently then men. It isn't that men and women cannot imitate the posture of the other gender, only that there are some positions which are physically more comfortable. Because of this, certain social meanings can be attributed to the posture one takes while seated; some more accurate than others. You might choose to ignore these nuisances of gender, but an observer like myself finds them fascinating and often extremely advantageous.
Perhaps we are even less than that, but if this is the case then what is the relevance of what Cthulhu thinks?
You may wish to review the mythos again as well. The mystery of gender, particularly the female gender, was a theme that repeats itself in Lovecraft's work. Lovecraft most definitely did not turn a blind eye to the differences between the genders.
By His Loathsome Tentacles!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by A'Zodul F'eid on Mar 10, 2010 16:12:05 GMT -6
I read about half of the posts right after I said that, and the rest just now. To clarify, I did intend to finish looking though the thread and by "demeaning" I meant I find the topic a bit too grey. Gender is something that exists so much within one persons mind. I see it in much the same light as time or morality. It's borderline impossible to get anyone to agree on the specific merits and points.
Cora'Sahn's comment about raping a dozen conservative public persona's put a huge smile on my face. It's not often I read something so honest and fun spirited. Did you read that, egodiabolus? I'd like to know if you found that as entertaining as I did. I'd actually intended to say something praising it before but I got sidetracked.
Awake!
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Post by egodiabolus on Mar 11, 2010 10:05:22 GMT -6
I have read all the posts on this thread, and found them all interesting and entertaining on their own merits. With a subject like this, we can afford to be a little glib.
Gender is something that exists so much within one persons mind. I see it in much the same light as time or morality. It's borderline impossible to get anyone to agree on the specific merits and points.
Gender is "so much within one persons mind", but only so much. It is also greatly "within" your body, in particular with regard to the equipment between your legs. I disagree with your statement about gender being "borderline impossible to get anyone to agree on the specific merits and points". You can draw some definite conclusions regarding gender; physiologically we are born either male or female, regardless of our psychology. Thus, we are treated in a manner that is often particular to our gender and view reality through a lens that is defined partially by our gender. There is nothing "good" or "bad" about this, it simply is, just as the sky is often blue instead of paisley. You may feel that the color of the sky has no merit, but it IS blue, and more often than not people generally respond to its "blue-ness". By recognizing and understanding this typical response, you may find several advantages are made available to you... advantages which go beyond choosing to ignore the blue sky and operate as if it did not matter.
There is nothing enlightened in a PC, gender-blind perspective. It reads to me like hiding from the issue, rather than facing it and enjoying it.
But, as I stated earlier, you are entitled to your opinion. If you truly follow your gender-neutral attitude to its ultimate conclusion, then you make yourself one less competitor in our gene-pool, which is advantageous to those of us who appreciate the nuances of gender and the joys the division between the sexes brings. Awake! Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by A'Zodul F'eid on Mar 12, 2010 18:55:43 GMT -6
Ego Diabolus, you seem particularly hostile toward me. While, it's true I disagree with the significance you place on this topic, I in no way doubt the legitimacy of your position within the fraction of reality loosely defined as your life. You however seem to see my view as ignorant. I can't fathom any motive for you to disregard my view after my having explained it so little, but if you are sure you hate what I say then by all means I'll offer no more discussion of my view on the subject. I hope no one felt in a similar way to me. I'd hate for some silent reader to not contribute because of such aggression toward my views.
I sincerely apologize for my ignorant views. I hope no one else will trouble you with an alternate viewpoint for a good long while.
Awaken!
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Post by egodiabolus on Mar 13, 2010 10:17:07 GMT -6
Ego Diabolus, you seem particularly hostile toward me. While, it's true I disagree with the significance you place on this topic, I in no way doubt the legitimacy of your position within the fraction of reality loosely defined as your life. You however seem to see my view as ignorant. I can't fathom any motive for you to disregard my view after my having explained it so little, but if you are sure you hate what I say then by all means I'll offer no more discussion of my view on the subject. I hope no one felt in a similar way to me. I'd hate for some silent reader to not contribute because of such aggression toward my views. I sincerely apologize for my ignorant views. I hope no one else will trouble you with an alternate viewpoint for a good long while. Awaken!
Suicidemuse,
Please do not mistake my disagreement with your statements as "hostility". This is a forum for the sharing of views and opinions. Clashes will occur. We can either choose to understand this and profit from our differences or we can assume some personal vendetta. I harbor no disrespect for you.
Your statements on this subject, however, I do greatly disagree with. As such, I will not simply sit by and let them go unanswered.
I am glad that you do not doubt the legitimacy of my statements. This will make the process easier for both of us. I flat out know that your statements are incorrect, come from a truly fantastic and inexperienced perspective on the subject of gender, and it is my goal with my responses to highlight their illegitimacy. I hope you are speaking from a position of youth and blatant naivety and not operating with some agenda, but in either case for the benefit of those who might read your words on this subject and feel the programmed tug of a PC response in agreement with you, I am filling the need of presenting the more legitimate and honest gender perspective.
Again, it is not a matter of "hate". One cannot "hate" an idea or opinion, only disagree with it. A statement can only ring true or untrue. Your statements about gender ring untrue in my mind, based on what should be obvious about gender. You may feel that you said little about your opinion, but what little you said was enough.
Is it "aggression" to disagree? I certainly had not sensed any hostility from you, even though you use words like "hate", "throwing down the gauntlet", "poppycock", "obsess", and "haters" (you assume much in labeling people who see a difference between genders as "haters"). I take no offense, even as with your last post you try to play the victim and cry about my unfair aggression toward you while all I have done is simply challenged your opinions with logic and observation.
If challenging your opinions is going to be viewed by you as aggression, then you will no doubt find the Cult of Cthulhu a harsh and dangerous environment.
Awake!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 13, 2010 16:25:27 GMT -6
Indeed, them's fighting words!
There's something about this topic that seems to be stuck in your craw, Suicidemuse. I don't know what it is, but Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus is not threatening or attacking you. On the contrary, I believe he's raising thought-provoking issues in a calm and rational manner.
I may disagree with some of his conclusions, as might any of you sifting through these discussion boards, but that's exactly why we have them... so all viewpoints may be considered.
Personally, I think women are more inclusive rather than introverted. They prefer a group. Women need friends, acquaintances, providers, associates, lovers, and child care in order to feel secure. Men only require a big knife.
And why, you may ask? Because solitary females were far less capable of surviving thousands of years ago than their male counterparts. Since men are naturally more individualistic, it seems obvious to me why they are drawn to the LHP as opposed to women. Thankfully, modern times allows us all the freedom to choose which direction we want to go.
When the stars are right!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by beastx on Mar 13, 2010 18:58:12 GMT -6
Perhaps it is worth considering the state in which we find the world abroad. In Western Culture a certain phenomenon has surfaced and it is easily observed.
"Equal Rights"
In spearheading this movement, culturally a slip has happened. Instead of granting equal rights to all, those that were previously repressed were provided with a method in which they could gain an edge and ultimately given more "Power". It in turn has manifested in the presentation of our culture. One only has to look as far as observing folks in a shopping mall and it becomes bluntly obvious. Men are trying to get into touch with the "feminine side". This is demonstrated also in the racial aspects but for ease of conversation, we need not examine that at this point. Drama, Glam, Bling, and Fashion are heavily emphasized. A fear of crossing certain boundaries is crystal and inescapable.
What does this have to do with women in the LHP?
If I was a prince. I could lay around all day in the gardens. Being fed grapes with all my entertainment provided, I could remain forever indulgent. It would make little matter to me that I was fat and unhealthy. Life is just the way I perceived it should rightfully be.
The nature of the Occultist hints at the quest for mastering. The very definition of Magick as we know it, is the conscious manifestation of ones will into reality. This obviously requires mastery.
So what happens when emphasis is put on certain priorities? Most women I know hold looking pretty and being trendy at the top of their priority list. So they find the current state of their ordinary existence to be in agreement with their PROGRAMED list of priorities then there is no need for further mastery.
Measure this truth carefully as what I will say is purely subjective.
Let's say this is a model of woman's priorities.
1. Look Pretty 2. Be Trendy 3. Have friends and be social 4. Mind other people's business 5. Romance and Love
You can take this or any other stereo-type of women and you find that it isn't hard for them to fulfill the requirements, given our current state.
It is only when they have trouble meeting any of the priorities that they will search for something to give them the ability to manifest what they are looking for.
If you observe the women who do participate in any form of religious expression. You will find they have not met with one of their programed priorities.
I'm am not by ANY means suggesting that this unique only to women. In fact I think that it in itself is obvious in every conceivable variable.
I'm merely noting that if my biggest concerns were attracting a mate or getting back at the bitch that was talking shit to me last week, I wouldn't need to look any further than "Judeo-Christian" or "Pagan" practices.
In fact I would in some ways find the notions of individuality and non-conformity completely counterproductive.
How does everyone like those apples?
Awake!!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'yleh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 13, 2010 19:20:58 GMT -6
Well put.
That is an interesting point. Is it our feeling that the everyday world is lacking which forces us to look beyond the everyday world? I believe so. Life without truth can be an empty thing.
Indeed. Can anyone else in the class, preferably someone we haven't heard from yet in this thread, tell us why that might be?
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by eldritchentity0 on Jun 22, 2010 20:22:45 GMT -6
It may become as a suprise to you, I am a woman but I perfer to think of myself as a hermaphrodite containing a balance of masculinity and feminity in mind and body and soul. Well I must be more "masculine" to be very attracted to the occult lol jk. Let me see here, yep fewer women attracted to the LHP indeed. But most women who do claim to be in the occult or some witchcraft group is basically for females or feminie men(gay or straight) or transgenders ,etc. have you notice most of the RHP groups are more focused on the emotions and instincts? Any and all ritual magick requires intense emotions, since desire is a form of emotion, most RHP wants to achieve their desires but lack intellectualism.
I dont find a lot of other women attracted to the LHP unless they have a masculine trait or what not. To be honest I can't stand dividing everything into two categories I feel that is for the human mind so they may comprehend something better. LHP to me offers more freedom of the self than anything I expected because it advocates knowing and creating your Self.
Awaken!
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Post by A'Zodul F'eid on Jun 23, 2010 16:47:27 GMT -6
I somehow doubt that you've figured it out yet, eldritchentity0. I think you're examination of women in the CoC from a sociological standpoint is very commendable and I do believe there to be some common factors, I disagree with you on certain points. Mainly, I doubt the the women of the CoC, or of any LHP group would be considered unfeminine. Granted they may not be damsels in distress, but merely having strong willpower doesn't make them masculine. Many LHP witches or practitioners are very feminine.
Awake!
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Post by eldritchentity0 on Jun 24, 2010 7:22:21 GMT -6
I think you misunderstood my post suicidemuse I am in no way saying that women who are attracted to the LHP are more masculine than most but others would view them as such, even though I may think of myself masculine AND feminie, I do not speak for all women in the CoC, just because a woman has a strong will does not make them masculine each and every woman has a right to speak for themselves and how they choose to see themselves. By the way I am simply stating which women I met personally who are attracted to LHP are and do consider themselves masculine in some way.
Awake!
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Jun 24, 2010 19:50:21 GMT -6
One only has to look as far as observing folks in a shopping mall and it becomes bluntly obvious. Men are trying to get into touch with the "feminine side". True... and a little sad. I don't think it's necessary at all for a man to get in touch with his feminine side any more than it is necessary for a woman to get in touch with her masculine side. The feminist movement continually demands stripping men of their masculinity. While I can appreciate a man that can consider the female perspective on any given highly sensitive, feminine issue, we are no longer living in caves waiting for the next male to come along, drag us by the hair, and rape us publicly.
Please understand that I support "equal rights," feminism, and I'm bisexual to boot. However, I am woman enough to admit that I find the alpha-male intriguing and sexually stimulating. I appreciate my feminine capabilities to attract the guy(s) I set my eyes on. And... I utilize my feminine ability to manipulate the situation whenever I decide it might be "necessary." It is only when they have trouble meeting any of the priorities that they will search for something to give them the ability to manifest what they are looking for.
If you observe the women who do participate in any form of religious expression. You will find they have not met with one of their programed priorities.
I'm am not by ANY means suggesting that this unique only to women. In fact I think that it in itself is obvious in every conceivable variable. I agree that I think this is the case with all individuals, not just women. We all have an ever-evolving list of priorities. If at any time, we are having trouble with meeting those priorities, we will certainly look somewhere, any where, else to find the tools, resources, people, we need to reach our goals and achieve the balance of our priorities. In fact I would in some ways find the notions of individuality and non-conformity completely counterproductive. I see your point. I must say, it's been my experience that most women will do whatever it takes to be the one that stands out, the one that gets the most attention. They will insist to their friend that the ugliest item on the rack really does make them look so attractive. "No, of COURSE that doesn't make your ass look big..." while thinking "Thank GOD that makes her ass look big!" They will wake up at 4am, just so they have the extra two or three hours to apply the fake eye lashes, exfoliate their skin, layer on the make-up, curl their hair, and try on several outfits before choosing just the right image they hope to present.
And they hope that the chosen image is enough to make the other women around them completely jealous. They prance around while spouting off about how "She shouldn't wear that" for reasons x, y, and z hoping to encourage the rest of the women to fit into certain molds and restrictions, knowing full well that she won't apply the same line of thinking to her own choices. This also will give her even more opportunity to stand out.
I can't say that I don't dearly appreciate and admire some of the lengths women will go to in order to "be pretty" as Priest Xeno so simply states it.
But... does that really limit their perspective of self to a point where they could not, or would not, choose to follow a path that could be considered by society as non-conforming?
Awake!
AK
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Post by beastx on Jun 25, 2010 7:56:52 GMT -6
But... does that really limit their perspective of self to a point where they could not, or would not, choose to follow a path that could be considered by society as non-conforming? Awake! AK [/quote] I thought the following excerpt from Howard Bloom's The Lucifer Prinicple might add an interesting lens for this subject... Any thoughts? Ia Ia! Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu [/b]
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Jun 25, 2010 19:11:33 GMT -6
Excellent excerpt. It reiterates the point I was making about female behavior. I don't deny in any way that women go above and beyond to ensure they, and their offspring, are favored when it comes right down to survival of the fittest; I support the theory.
There are countless examples out there of how historically, the LHP has been associated with femininity:
a. In some of Stan Gooch's writings, he highlights the fact that the vast majority of cultures, from every continent, associate the "left" with femininity and the "right" with masculinity.
b. TANTRA is also called VAMA MARGA, i.e. The Left Hand Path, due to the fact that women, who are of lunar influence, negative polarity or the left, play an essential role in this Science. The left was already associated with the feminine and with the lunar sphere mostly due to the relationship between a woman's menstruation cycle and the cycles of the moon.
c. Traditional English weddings have the bride on the left side of the groom which seems to come from the Bible where Eve was created from Adam's left rib. Some people believe that because the rib was taken from the left side, and Eve ate the forbidden fruit against the will of God, a woman is considered evil or a symbol of sin.
d. A "left handed whore" was a Roman term for masturbation.
So why don't more women consider themselves or proclaim themselves as part of the LHP? Answer: Because it's not socially acceptable.
Women are in it for attention. Since more men are of the RHP, that is where women will gravitate as well. Does this line of thinking limit a woman's perspective? Absolutely. Will a woman avoid taking the path less followed in order to ensure the attention she will continue to receive? Sometimes. It depends on who she is following and where she wants the attention from.
As much as my feminist self would like to ignore the feminine need for attention and acceptance, it's the truth.
Awake!
AK
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Post by A'Zodul F'eid on Jun 26, 2010 13:54:28 GMT -6
I think you misunderstood my post suicidemuse I am in no way saying that women who are attracted to the LHP are more masculine than most...By the way I am simply stating which women I met personally who are attracted to LHP are and do consider themselves masculine in some way. Awake! I'm pretty sure I'm not "misunderstanding" your point. I just don't understand it at all yet. Perhaps the fundamental difficulty with this is that there is no clear explanation for what masculinity and femininity mean. My beliefs on such matters are probably best reflected by what Apsara Kamalli has said in more recent posts. EldritchEntity0, if you'd tell me what you mean by masculinity I'd be much less confused. What traits is it that the women of the CoC or LHP in general express that make them seem masculine? Spirits of the Sea Remember!
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Post by egodiabolus on Jun 26, 2010 14:25:04 GMT -6
I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me that suicidemuse and eldritchentity0 are saying the same thing but from two different perspectives. You each are saying that the traits of the people in the LHP are atypical. One of you chooses to use a language that divides those traits between "masculine" and "feminine", and the other does not. She says "to-may-to", and he says "to-mah-to". Instead of arguing about the language, I suggest trying to appreciate the message. If someone chooses to divide certain traits along masculine/feminine lines for the sake of discussion, especially when discussing themselves, then what would be the point of someone else trying to convince them that their self-expression is wrong, especially if "wrong" appears to be some kind of PC gender trip?
Some choose to live in a world without gender differences. More power to them. Some choose to recognize differences in gender, and more power to them. As to the question "what does 'masculine' mean?", it is relative, a matter on one's particular emphasis on gender, and if another does not share your emphasis (or lack there of), then their answer will never satisfy you.
Awake!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Jun 26, 2010 21:18:04 GMT -6
I would like to take this thread in a little different direction in relation to the Fourth Way philosophy.
It is said that Gurdjieff was an undeniable male chauvinist. One example can be seen in a discussion with James Moore:
“Nature of woman is very different from that of man. Woman is from ground and only hope for her to arise to another stage of development--to go the Heaven as you say--is with man.... If woman can find real man, then woman become real woman without necessity work.”
This passage suggests that Gurdjieff believed women were not capable of achieving the higher levels of self-observation and awareness that men were unless they found a “real man” to guide them there.
We have been discussing feminine behaviors in the LHP through this thread. What are the thoughts and interpretations on this line of thinking?
Awake!
AK
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Post by A'Zodul F'eid on Jun 28, 2010 14:36:29 GMT -6
This passage suggests that Gurdjieff believed women were not capable of achieving the higher levels of self-observation and awareness that men were unless they found a “real man” to guide them there. AKWhat if a woman who'd already achieved such levels of self-observation where to tutor a man, or another woman, in studying them self? Awake!
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Post by egodiabolus on Jun 28, 2010 15:42:12 GMT -6
This passage suggests that Gurdjieff believed women were not capable of achieving the higher levels of self-observation and awareness that men were unless they found a “real man” to guide them there. AKWhat if a woman who'd already achieved such levels of self-observation where to tutor a man, or another woman, in studying them self? Awake! I would think it would be no different than a man tutoring another in the study of the self. The tutor would bring their individual dynamic, no matter how "advanced" they may be, to the student who would have their own individual dynamic. Every tutor-student pairing would be unique. Gender would be an influence in the process, just as anything else the pairing brings to the process would have some impact. A good tutor recognizes that their personal influences carry through their guidance to another, and a good student seeks multiple tutors and selects for themselves a range of ideas and influences from those encounters.
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Jun 28, 2010 17:20:20 GMT -6
There is definitely that frame of mind in some corners of the Fourth Way and Left Hand Path.
I'm reading a new book on The Work right now entitled Creating a Soul by Girard Haven. Here is a quote from introduction...
This reassuring and scolding, this momentum of daily life that tells us all is true and proper just the way it is, is called feminine dominance. Feminine dominance keeps the world in its orbit around nothing, going nowhere. It is feminine dominance that has us believe that we already have a soul and are going to heaven, and it is feminine dominance that evokes feelings of outrage at the thought that this is not so. Feminine dominance makes us feel guilty about asserting ourselves, or taking a moment longer than the world would like so that we can see more clearly who and what we are. The artificial emotions of feminine dominance (attitudes connected with "should" and "should not") supplant the real emotions of conscience. To question the world as it is, is to risk being considered a fool, a madman, an outcast, or perhaps a bookworm. "Life is great, just get on with it." But this is where life deceives us most, in the mistaken assumption that its own ends have meaning and purpose, and that moreover we are obliged to pursue those ends. The influences that accompany this momentum - money, career, spouse, family, country, health, pleasure - the Fourth Way calls Influences A (also referred to in these pages as life). As long as a person believes primarily in Influences A and devotes his time and energy to acquiring them, he will not be interested in spiritual work, even if he says he is.
Now, to me, it sounds like this guy might have an issue or two about women and their place in The Work. Come to think of it, Christianity puts man on a pedestal compared to woman as well. Contrast these facts with Gurdjieff's best students being women, and I have no idea where we are or where that leaves us.
I try to keep an open mind. While my own Midwest American 21st century culture leads me to believe that women have a long way to go in The Great Work (using the LHP as a route to The Work of Gurdjieff's teaching), they have only slightly farther to journey than their male counterparts.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by natalia666 on Jun 28, 2010 18:55:16 GMT -6
Gender Theory is a very fascinating and developing subject. The easiest way to understand Gender is to see it on a sliding spectrum scale. It is variation, not dichotomy.
The LHP is indeed majority male. But there have been many left-handed females. I have also met many female witches, who are left-handed in nature, but do not identify with the left-handed cultures, specifically because of the masculine/aggressive thematics used. Of course, we have archetypes such as Lillith, Hekate, and Kali that are amazingly feminine and left-handed.
Personally, the way I see it, there is masculine and feminine found within BOTH genders. A male can be both assertive/aggressive and nurturing/soft. A female can also be both assertive/aggressive and nurturing/soft. If they can only be one then there is imbalance. Again this is for the sake of categorization and conversation. All gender is relative and varies greatly.
As for males or females having any more difficulty on the LHP. This can be seen either way. Females are raised to be more passive and submissive, although this is fading in modern times. So this programming may create obstacles. But, as my High Priestess has always said, "women are typically better at magick because they don't have a dick to deal with." What she meant by that was not feminism, rather, males, especially in our culture, are raised to be egotistical and headstrong, which can create an obstacle. I see no innate qualities in either that make one any harder to Ascend as the next.
To say a male makes a better magician or Ascends easier on the LHP is the same talk found in patriarchal religions like Christianity and Islam etc.
One requires both energies.
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