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Post by anubis9 on Nov 5, 2009 0:57:35 GMT -6
so if we were created by the elder gods to feed the universe,how did the universe come into existance acording to the cthulhu mythos?
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Post by sin on Nov 5, 2009 7:12:57 GMT -6
The 'universe' is shared, according to the mythos concept. It does not explain how the entire universe was created, only that the Old Ones reside in dimensional space. In CoC theology, human suffering feeds the universe, which in-turn feeds the Great Old Ones.
You must also understand, that HPL created a collection of ideas, and other mythos writers build on those ideas.
So, in finding this answer - it really depends on the mythos writer. There is no clear, cut and dry answer as to 'what' exactly makes up the mythos.
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 5, 2009 10:36:39 GMT -6
according to my beliefs, the universe was created by a group of beings/forces known as the lesser gods. it was created to house and sustain them... to draw nourishment. the suffering we endure provides energy for the lesser gods. that's why we are kept in this prison of a universe.
the Great Old Ones influenced human evolution, allowing us to rise above our suffering. with training and discipline, we may become like the Old Ones.
actually, the universe and the Great Old Ones are more or less separate from each other. while our suffering feeds the universe, our own magical advancement and conscious exploration empowers the Ancient Ones.
let me know if this doesn't make sense or there are more questions.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by anubis9 on Nov 5, 2009 17:31:09 GMT -6
thank you very much:D ia shemhamforash
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Post by Sarak G'hash on Nov 5, 2009 20:21:34 GMT -6
according to my beliefs, the universe was created by a group of beings/forces known as the lesser gods. it was created to house and sustain them... to draw nourishment. the suffering we endure provides energy for the lesser gods. that's why we are kept in this prison of a universe.
the Great Old Ones influenced human evolution, allowing us to rise above our suffering. with training and discipline, we may become like the Old Ones. actually, the universe and the Great Old Ones are more or less separate from each other. while our suffering feeds the universe, our own magical advancement and conscious exploration empowers the Ancient Ones.
let me know if this doesn't make sense or there are more questions.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priestok, Venger, I'm speechless! That explanation was just awesome and went straight to the "meat and poatoes" of things!!
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Post by sin on Nov 6, 2009 8:59:08 GMT -6
How can they be separate, if all things make up the 'Universe'? That doesn't make any sense.
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 6, 2009 11:38:03 GMT -6
the universe may be a huge collection of galaxies, but it's not everything. there is the void, for one. also, i believe there is at least another universe (possibly many) beyond our own. lastly, there are other dimensions, realities, planes of existence, and levels of consciousness which may, to some degree, be considered outside our universe.
HPL states that the Great Old Ones are somehow locked out of our universe, yet hungry to return. and that is one of our goals... to bring Them back.
VS
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Post by beastx on Nov 6, 2009 14:23:33 GMT -6
the universe may be a huge collection of galaxies, but it's not everything. there is the void, for one. also, i believe there is at least another universe (possibly many) beyond our own. lastly, there are other dimensions, realities, planes of existence, and levels of consciousness which may, to some degree, be considered outside our universe.
HPL states that the Great Old Ones are somehow locked out of our universe, yet hungry to return. and that is one of our goals... to bring Them back.
VS I wanted to add to what Venger has stated. It is clear to me that it is supported by science in the fields of physics, meta-physics, quantum mechanics, and quantum physics. I wish to demonstrate this by sharing some thoughts from Albert Einstein and David Bohm, two of science's most embraced and recognized minds. Althought both of their works didn't prove to be the absolute rule in this field, they are always the foundation for which modern physicists build from. Here's a quote by Einstein: "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."I put this in here for two reasons; First to demonstrate a common misconception I've often noted, that the universe is all encompassing and infinite (which is sorta the same thing). Second for it's basic comic value. Now to continue this little exploration; Einstein lays out his thoughts on reality and it's relationship with time/space and the universe (again sorta the same thing): "I wished to show that space-time is not necessarily something to which one can ascribe a separate existence, independently of the actual objects of physical reality. Physical objects are not in space, but these objects are spatially extended. In this way the concept of 'empty space' loses its meaning" Einstein is explaining that physical objects do not exist in space-time. He thought of space and physical objects to be of the same substance (pieces of the unified collective) which appear to be solid and are merely regions of higher field density (Consciousness). "If we think of the field as being removed, there is no 'space' which remains, since space does not have an independent existence." "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one." "A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive." It is obvious here that Einstein did not consider us to be living in the space-time, but to be a part of a collective consciousness. Einstein's colleague David Bohm wrote: "To meet the challenge before us our notions of cosmology and of the general nature of reality must have room in them to permit a consistent account of consciousness. Vice versa, our notions of consciousness must have room in them to understand what it means for its content to be 'reality as a whole'. The two sets of notions together should then be such as to follow for an understanding as to how consciousness and reality are related. " In response Einstein wrote: "Hence it is clear that the space of physics is not, in the last analysis, anything given in nature or independent of human thought. It is a function of our conceptual scheme [mind] . Space as conceived by Newton proved to be an illusion, although for practical purposes a very fruitful illusion - indeed so fruitful that the concepts of absolute space and absolute time will forever remain in the background of our daily experience." More thoughts on this from Einstein: "The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness..."Physicist Thomas Campbell states (in the video I posted here just a few days ago), it is his belief and scientifically supported, that the universe is infact part of a larger system which is the conscious. All of this adds a different way to look at the idea presented by Venger in the above statement.
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Post by LostSoul on Nov 7, 2009 10:54:10 GMT -6
Of note, Venger...I sincerely doubt that the Old ones would want us to rise up to "their" level of "existance"(Even "if" it could be done)...They want us to evolve, yes. But, not to level of a god...
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 7, 2009 14:04:10 GMT -6
that, like everything else, is open to interpretation. however, i suggest you re-read, "The Call of Cthulhu" by HPL.
VS
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Post by sin on Nov 9, 2009 12:49:02 GMT -6
True, he does; however I always found that to be an oddity in the cosmology. If the Old Ones were a part of this universe, they make up the universe. If they return to it, they are again - part of it the universe.
With regard to 'alternate' planes - I don't believe this to be true; therefore it's not part of my reality. The only dimension, outside of this one - is the dimensions of the imagination.
If, it's to be based on the cultist's interpretations and the many objective realities we create - than doesn't dogmatic thought on this subject contradict that idea?
When talking in terms of 'the Universe' personally, I think your perception of this idea is narrow. The Universe, makes up all things - all matter, energy, time, space, - all things.
So, in my definition of "universe" the Old Ones can not be separate from it; therefore this idea makes no logical sense to me.
What say you?
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 9, 2009 15:18:12 GMT -6
there is an inherent outsideness to the Old Ones. for me and for HPL, according to my interpretation, the Old Ones are outside whatever natural totality we inhabit.
also, quantum physics... if one subscribes to such theories, necessitates multiple dimensions.
it is open to interpretation and i welcome alternative understandings. however, i have yet to hear an explanation... not just from you, but anyone i've ever conversed with in the Mythos, as to how the Great Old Ones are not separate from this world / reality / universe / dimension or what have you.
logically, it doesn't make sense to me that the Old Ones are here, now and yet nothing is the way it should be. everyone still suffers needlessly, 99% of humanity is not conscious, our Cthulhu Cult struggles are constant and only just beginning, so on and so forth.
but i would love to hear a new cosmic interpretation which is logical, internally consistent, and in keeping with the Lovecraftian spirit or aesthetic.
yes, everything that we are aware of, but what about that stuff which we are unaware of? to me, it seems that there must be something beyond the universe. whatever we can envision, we can theoretically go beyond it. anything from the mountain beyond the mountain to infinity + 1.
these things are hard to conceive of because who can contemplate everything in thousands of galaxies? or more? is the universe expanding? is it infinite? can something really be infinite? and how can we ever know that?
perhaps everything is merely imagination and there is no reality, no universe? if imagination is subjective, then why can't it eventually bleed into objective truth given enough energy, belief, and will?
a philosophical quandary. if a tree is planted in a forest, and then removed from that forest... is the tree part of the forest? yes, no, maybe, sometimes but not always? i don't think there's a definitive answer for that.
as always, i hope that others put their tentacle into the water and help us discuss these ideas. don't be afraid, the water is warm... wait, is that water? oh my god no!?!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by creature on Nov 9, 2009 16:11:36 GMT -6
I believe that in the beginning there was one...thing. It separated into two beings, "God" and "Satan" if you will. They created everything. Not as detailed or eloquent as most of the other posts on this forum, but....
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Post by sin on Nov 10, 2009 10:28:03 GMT -6
Honestly, I think we just make it all up - therefore what we consider to be 'objective reality' is really based in 'understanding' our environment. We 'create' (or attempt to) universal truths. We label things, we create language, numbers have no meaning at all, until we apply it (2 apples, 1 shoe). And Quantum? Pah! It's an 'old science' with a new label, and a better understanding of these things - even though we still don't fully understand it.
How can the Old Ones not be separate? Because, in order to 'experience' the Old Ones (on any level) they would have to be part of it. Otherwise, we would never have any experience with them.
Much like the idea of the 'paranormal' or 'super natural' - these terms are oxy morons, because they imply that something 'exceeds nature' or the 'norm'. If we can experience them (even if we can't explain them) it must be part of the natural world, because we too are part of the natural world.
I also think it's bold to presume what HPL understood and interpreted for himself.
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 10, 2009 18:08:36 GMT -6
yes. yes, it is. haha.
maybe we need a better definition of separate? to use another analogy, if you have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on your plate and a glass of milk next to the plate... aren't the sandwich and milk separate? they'll eventually meet in the same location and they might start out in close proximity, but i would still consider them (at the time i observe the sandwich and milk before consumption) to be separate, beyond, or outside each other.
yes, we are making a great deal of it up. however, sometimes we can agree that one thing is more or less subjective than another. just as we can occasionally recognize when we are more or less asleep compared to other moments. i guess that's the best we can hope for when it comes to a consensus of reality.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by sin on Nov 11, 2009 9:00:46 GMT -6
Ok But, you can't have it both ways. You can't talk in these terms, then on the atomic level and call it the same thing. If we scattered all of our atoms, it's all the same stuff. Matter and Energy. What makes the peanut butter, bread, jelly, plate, glass and milk? A specific design within a paradigm; therefore they are not separate. It's again, an issue of subjectivity. As a subjective being, I can see the sandwich on the plate, I can see myself sitting at the table about to eat it - but on the atomic level? I can't see the forest through the trees. Then, we must consider what the 'Old One's represent. To you, they are entities, beings which exist in another version of this reality - another dimension if you will. To me, they represent an abstract idea - one that can be interpreted, used, deconstructed, reconstructed and used to fit the need. Are the Old Ones the same thing? Or are they different? Are they ideas which exist in subjective reality, or objective reality? Can we truly observe them? I believe we can, but not in the same way attributed to our personal interpretations, and understandings of these things. AND... Just because we understand them differently, does not mean they are separate. They can not be separate from us - it is 'us' that provides the understanding. If there is no mind, no brain to process this information - they can not exist. If these ideas exist for me to process, they are very much a part of the Universe that I am a part of. If I were separate from the place where they exist, I would have no conceivable idea of them. And that's the crux of the matter isn't it? We have moments of recognition, we fail to stay widely aware - even of our own existence. We drone about, doing what must be done to survive, which keeps us trapped in the sleep machine. The irony is, we *do* have the power to free ourselves from it, but 9 times out of 10 we do not, because the alternative is not that appealing to us. So, in essence we are making willful decisions to stay asleep.
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 11, 2009 11:23:09 GMT -6
yes, that is the real tragedy. although True Will, that which is consciously intended by the individual, only makes decisions to Awaken. sadly, that kind of Will is almost always replaced by ordinary will, which doesn't get us very far.
i would go ever farther with that notion... there is a part of the Ancient Ones within each of us. our soul, spirit, consciousness, essence, divine spark, black flame, or whatever you wish to call it. i believe that was given to us by the A:O and allows us to communicate with Them even though They are outside this universe.
but again, that's my interpretation. if you have your own, that's great. as long as you have a reason for it, an understanding that goes beyond a regurgitation of concepts which society / culture have forced upon us. Cora'Sahn has shown me that she's actually thought her paradigm through. can others on this forum do the same? i wonder...
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by StevePulaski on Nov 11, 2009 11:25:30 GMT -6
yes, that is the real tragedy. although True Will, that which is consciously intended by the individual, only makes decisions to Awaken. sadly, that kind of Will is almost always replaced by ordinary will, which doesn't get us very far.What do you mean Ordinary Will doesn't get us very far?
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Post by crawlingchaos on Nov 11, 2009 11:59:46 GMT -6
What do you mean Ordinary Will doesn't get us very far?True will is that which is in accord with Divine Will, or in other words, we are fufilling our destiny in accordace with our true nature. Ordinary will is simply persuing our desires in a mundane sense.
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Post by sin on Nov 11, 2009 12:51:28 GMT -6
I second that notion.
NEVER regurgitate, mimic or copy - make it your own.
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 11, 2009 15:37:52 GMT -6
the fact that you capitalized both ordinary and will in conjunction together illustrates your lack of understanding. but that's ok. our religion is an instrument for learning.
yes, but there's more to it than that.
as sleeping beings we can't even pursue our desires. all we can do is be carried along the stream of life. ordinary will is no will at all. those who are asleep cannot do, they can only drift. only when we are more Awake than our usual state of being can we develop will. and after years of effort in the Work, an individual may obtain True Will.
all of us are asleep even now. if you want to do something, obtain your desire... can you do it? that is the true test of a magician. set yourself a goal, then try to achieve that goal.
even simple things like trying to remember to grab a soda from the refrigerator before leaving the house an hour from now. in that hour, our minds will chatter away, go this place and that, distractions everywhere. in an hour, we will have forgotten all about the soda.
now take that example and multiply its complexity by 100. those are the results we could have if only we were more conscious!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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