|
Post by misterkevin on Nov 8, 2007 12:10:16 GMT -6
I have a number of questions after reading Cthulhu Cult. Being new to this area, i.e., Satanism, Magic, the Mythos, et. al., I hope these questions do not seem naive. I'll post them separately by subject so they will be easier to identify and follow the individual threads. 2. VS notes in Cthulhu Cult that altruism and evil are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Multiple references describe "black, aggressive, lusting forces" (page 58) and yet Spiritual Salvation by way of the three steps (Self-Empowerment, Awakening, and the Great Work) and that VS could be a "starry savior to all mankind" (page 13) seem in opposition to the darker, evil cloak so readily adopted as "the way." Wikipedia describes the Left Hand Path as espousing altruism "as a self-deception, created by conventional religions." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_hand_path If Generally Accepted Reality is a falsehood, then calling something evil only serves as a meme a cultist adopts from the unenlighted. Bottom line, nearly all of the book seems rather straightforward and acceptable. I'm concerned that preoccupation with the dark side just ties me to a framework which doesn't matter anyway. I do not want to define myself as a negation of the standard moral view because it rules out the possibilities unimagined from the masses. Insofar as I know that I am detached conventional ethics in the way I act and lead my life as an expression of who I truly am, does that make me evil? Am I evil enough? Does it matter?
|
|
|
Post by I AM the Way on Nov 8, 2007 12:56:02 GMT -6
at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. some people would consider you evil for following your own unconventional morality and ethical code. viewing yourself as evil can help the individual see himself as outside "the system". but for those who have no use for the usual terms such as good or evil, they can be forgotten.
as to the altruism. this goes back to the movie Wallstreet where Michael Douglas gives his speech in front of the share holders. "Greed is good. Greed works..." and so forth. our drives were put there for a reason. however, they must be known. we have to see and understand what we're doing, as well as, have the capacity to control our desires.
in my mind, following your own True Self will inevitably benefit humanity as a whole. even if 10% of our race evolves, at the expense of the sleeping 90%, humanity has achieved something great.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
|
|
Madguten
Moderator
CoC forum moderator
Woe, to he who hears the howling
Posts: 2,785
|
Post by Madguten on Nov 8, 2007 16:59:06 GMT -6
I think.....
Evil is a strange term. It is nearly/if not entirely impossible to define. One can say that acts of events are unpleasant, reckless, or hurtful but not evil, its simply not a very precise term in most cases. I believe that the term has been overused by religiously deluded individuals to describe anything that they do not like. The word is a martyr, just like the name/word Satan is. But there are things that are truly evil, things like the old ones. But that is simply beyond human understanding.
|
|
|
Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Nov 8, 2007 19:03:42 GMT -6
Somethings are labeled evil simply because they opose something/ someone which defines them self as good. This is outrages but common.
shail
|
|
|
Post by frankgorshin on Nov 13, 2007 22:35:32 GMT -6
There is no such thing as evil.
Evil is just another way of saying selfish and / or lazy --with selfishness being it's predominant attribute.
|
|
|
Post by Anonymous Loli on Nov 14, 2007 10:50:03 GMT -6
Evil is that which is misunderstood, or was misunderstood before. Those who oppose the changes that have been made, the findings and new scientific theories, stay with the notion of "evil".
|
|
|
Post by I AM the Way on Nov 14, 2007 11:05:03 GMT -6
lazy? that's a new one.
VS
|
|
|
Post by jasmine on Nov 14, 2007 14:02:33 GMT -6
Evil is that which is misunderstood, or was misunderstood before. Those who oppose the changes that have been made, the findings and new scientific theories, stay with the notion of "evil". We do as a race have a real tendency to demonize the works that came before....in other words when popular thought changes as it always does, people tend to demonize the previous way of thinking.....almost as a self-chastizement for believeing incorrectly. So, by its very nature "evil" is indefinable. As it will differ for each and every individual. Is laziness evil? I think that is a perspective question....personal that is. To my way of thinking...we are not lazy enough. we spend so much time (as a race) running around "getting shit done" we don't even realize most of what we are doing is useless. In my perspective if I took more time to be "lazy" earlier in my life.....I might have awakened sooner. I might have had the time to realize that I was wasting my time on useless mechanical effort. So, I guess I have to say in my perspective a lack of laziness or "slack" as I call it would be evil.
|
|
|
Post by I AM the Way on Nov 14, 2007 14:19:33 GMT -6
yes. we all need less "busy work" and more slack.
VS
|
|
|
Post by david242 on Nov 16, 2007 1:31:43 GMT -6
I would imagine that after one finally attains the Knowledge and Conversation of ones Holy Guardian Angel (or Awakened*) the dualistic notions of good and evil are held in place as merely a helpful reference for how others would judge a situation/idea/person. If you truly do win the Knowledge, receive it properly and implement your True Will on this (Malkuth) level of existance than it would be impossible for anything you do whilst completing the Great Work to be anything other than what needs to be done - relativistic labels aside. The thing is - you don't START there. The majority of people are not enlightened - it's so obvious it almost doesn't need stating right? Well if that's true - than that means a minority of people ARE enlightened. To seperate yourself from the majority to the minority can be frightening - the lack of security and direction can be a huge hurdle depending on the type of person you are. Sometimes you need a huge rocket-fueled blast of momentum and purpose in order to do the things you need to do just to get to a place where you can start doing what you want to do. For a certain type of person (of usually a certain age and social background) the idea of the dark-eyed evil doer is incredibily alluring. The videogame like power magick has the ability to bestow makes you feel like a demon commanding, eyebrow-furrowing, dark energy filled sorceror that they do NOT want to fuck with. The feeling of wrongness of being perverse with laws of nature - of impinging on the will of others (and at times totally dominating it) is a sweet, intoxicating and delicious fucking concoction. This is where most occultist start telling you things like "remember this is just a mask - don't get caught up in it and forget who you are blah blah blah" or " remember if you do black magick it comes back to you threefold simper whimper" (I fucking HATE the word "threefold") but fuck all that You're going to do what you want until it's time to do something different - and the Universe will let you know - subtely at first - but than not so subtle (8:24 local Bavarian time). Nobody in the throws of the dark anti-hero paradigm can be coaxed out of it with puritanical warning - it only makes us want to do it even more. The thing is you eventually reach a point where youre understanding outpaces your ability and you realize that maybe you're not the Antichrist after all and, hell, maybe you're not even the most hardcore magician in your area code. This can be heartbreaking. But it is a necessary step - a mini-abyss you have to leap if the mask seems to have fused itself to your face. The cool thing is - that if you take the next path - step up your game - chill with the fucking megalomania - and keep operating you find you've actually become something even better than comicbooky overstylized images of yourself you cook up in your sweaty head in the dark hours of the night. Image (the crossbred projection of who you are and what you want to be) is important - noone can deny it - and "Evil" is sexy - the Sith have better outfits than the Jedi - a (properly fitted) black silk sorcerors robe is cooler than a cream leasure suit and floral tie etc etc. Just remember that the Work and the Results are of ultimate importance.
|
|
|
Post by frankgorshin on Nov 16, 2007 23:29:39 GMT -6
lazy? that's a new one.
VSNot really. The two demons that jump to mind are first, Belphegor (pictured here sitting on a toilet): And there's Belial of Milton's "Paradise Lost" fame. Ha! I've always found it funny that most demons, in spite of having all the power of Satan at their disposal, are unable to keep from going bald. Oh well...just an observation... *cough*
|
|
|
Post by david242 on Nov 17, 2007 3:12:36 GMT -6
Laziness might be the worst demon of all - I've tried invoking Belial before - all that ended up happening was a trip to the emergency room for my scryer and a goetic carpet and house covered in blood. There is probably nothing worse in the world than indolence - a demon that comes out all hardcore that you have to fight only motivates the fuck out of you to be better and more powerful - a demon you don't even know is around that fills you up with colossal laziness and inertia can be the most hindering obstacle to the completion of the Great Work - I am as lazy as they get - especially after spending 5 years in the military with 2 and some change at war I love every single moment of slothful inaction but its a fucking quagmire of non-accomplishment and despite my somewhat extensive knowledge I am shamefully ill practiced. Sometimes practicing magick is like going to the gym - if you just stick to it - don't burn yourself out and make a constant effort - when it comes time to take your shirt off at the beach as your surrounded by dozens of chicks - you're all good - but if not - if you only go like every once and awhile straining yourself too much one time, not putting enough effort in the next - than youre on the beach cursing yourself wishing you had given the time and effort to be what you want to be. Some of the most helpful things you can do with magick are banish the "demons" of laziness, idleness, and indolence and invoke the "whatevers" of motivation, purpose, and drive. Good or evil - creative or destructive, high or low magick - its not really all that important as long as SOMETHING is getting done. On a related note any of you summoners out there that have an egregore, servitor, or demon/angel of motivation at hand - please do send some of that my way - I need a tremendous amount of energy for this weekend and coffee alone may not cut it thanks
|
|
|
Post by I AM the Way on Nov 17, 2007 10:49:51 GMT -6
you're citing christian propaganda as a source for your "demons". sure, everything unchristian has been given a demonic form and name, but that doesn't mean they are true demons.
if all LHP Gods are facets of a single dark jewel, then all demons are reflection-shadows emanating from the Formless Black Essence. true demons are fruitful, not cautionary personifications for medieval christian fools!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
|
|
|
Post by david242 on Nov 17, 2007 12:49:23 GMT -6
"true demons are fruitful,"
-VS
See this is what I'm thinking would be one of the only plausible answers. I mean what is its/their function - what do they accomplish? Only humans are given the extreme luxury of not having to accomplish anything (7:42) or complete some kind of purposeful task - I would assume something operating on the levels a demon operates on would have to perform some kind of function just to EXIST where it does. I no longer really wanna mess with them - and thats coming from a darksider western mystery tradition magician - thats not uninformed christian handwringing or "trying to sound cool like I really know whats up with demons and yo they iz like NOT FOR YOU lolz roflmao!!" but just honest advice from one guy who has found out the hardway. Anyways - I'm not saying they cant be successfully negotiated or that it won't be a part of your story but I now strongly advise the informed magick opinion of not attempting ANY "negative" third party contacts until the either Abramelin - or Crowelys shorter Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel or any other operation which puts you in touch with your destiny has been completed. But I know, I know - I can hear you thinking it "Fuck that - I'm doing that shit NOW! Fuck all that Victorian penis obsessed "Western" tradition bullshit - I'll slap a demon in the face with my dick!" And if that kind of paradigm works for you, hell yeah, more power to you - it's only my experience has been slightly different.
|
|
|
Post by nevermore on Nov 17, 2007 22:33:16 GMT -6
There is no evil, but I am opposed to whatever doesn't benefit me.
|
|
|
Post by Rodr Evil on Jan 6, 2008 11:40:11 GMT -6
at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. some people would consider you evil for following your own unconventional morality and ethical code. That's the point, for me is very simple. Anyone of us have their own truth, and as Venger said, others might see that as evil. Then, the Evil itself don't exist?
|
|
|
Post by iconoclasm on Jan 6, 2008 11:52:45 GMT -6
I have bursts of time I am very active then dark phases.for now I try to write ,draw or some shit.I try to remain aware of myself so I don't slip into a depression but I have very little use for ritual magick.Having messed with Belial before had two sides.Posioned by my own knowledge,I could not drop the Bliol (worthless one) interpretation and in turn attempted suicide one 12 months ago.It took much awareness and work to push out LaVey's interpretation "he with no master" but when I conjured the strength I ran with it and it empowered me.The despair and darkness was still very real.
I consider it necessary to have periods where you do nothing.They fill you with so much guilt and you hate yourself so much from inaction that,a bursts of creativity rushes into the mind and much work can be done.These works for me are art.
|
|
|
Post by goat on Jan 11, 2008 16:45:36 GMT -6
"There are no moral phenomena at all, but only a moral interpretation of phenomena." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
|
|
|
Post by jasmine on Jan 16, 2008 11:12:21 GMT -6
"true demons are fruitful," -VS See this is what I'm thinking would be one of the only plausible answers. I mean what is its/their function - what do they accomplish? Only humans are given the extreme luxury of not having to accomplish anything (7:42) or complete some kind of purposeful task - I would assume something operating on the levels a demon operates on would have to perform some kind of function just to EXIST where it does. I no longer really wanna mess with them - and thats coming from a darksider western mystery tradition magician - thats not uninformed christian handwringing or "trying to sound cool like I really know whats up with demons and yo they iz like NOT FOR YOU lolz roflmao!!" but just honest advice from one guy who has found out the hardway. Anyways - I'm not saying they cant be successfully negotiated or that it won't be a part of your story but I now strongly advise the informed magick opinion of not attempting ANY "negative" third party contacts until the either Abramelin - or Crowelys shorter Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel or any other operation which puts you in touch with your destiny has been completed. But I know, I know - I can hear you thinking it "Fuck that - I'm doing that shit NOW! Fuck all that Victorian penis obsessed "Western" tradition bullshit - I'll slap a demon in the face with my dick!" And if that kind of paradigm works for you, hell yeah, more power to you - it's only my experience has been slightly different. I do see your point. Once the mage has successfully crossed the abyss he or she will be able to make these determinations a bit more easily. But to the aspiring adept....why not call on demons? For myself a few grades ago (I hate to use that phrase as I am self taught)....I could not tell the difference between the demons of my own creation and those that were not. Why not call them up to do battle? Why not move forward into the learning experience? It is in the crucible that we are melted down to our most potent essence. It is within the struggle that we find ourselves and discover that there is no such thing as evil. Any mage looking to traverse the abyss is and should be aware of the danger of losing self within. It is to be a highly personal path for each person involved...who is to say which way is best?
|
|
|
Post by iconoclasm on Jan 16, 2008 13:59:25 GMT -6
Why wait?It just serves to restrict you.Mess with demons at your own discretion,the reading is not necessary not are the rituals.Come to your own conclusions,fuck the old orders.Who's to say those views won't shape your experience.I don't endorse ignorance but I don't endorce adhering to some syllabus either.Perhaps your views on them caused them to backfire LOL
Anyhow evil is tired and will take a long nap now.
Goodnight! -The chaotic jump head first extremist,Iconoclasm
|
|
|
Post by eratciv on Jan 16, 2008 16:58:37 GMT -6
I am. The fallen know no morality.
|
|
|
Post by iconoclasm on Jan 16, 2008 23:28:48 GMT -6
I am. The fallen know no morality. Hold on let me guess... What you identify with...
|
|
|
Post by iconoclasm on Jan 17, 2008 0:48:43 GMT -6
Its not his fault he's obsessed in anime.I can see how such memes can be catchy,even trendy.I've rolled with stranger paradigms before but I creatively created magical techniques to go with them (quite effective too).Or maybe its the emo teen angst shows he enjoys.Yes let us not debase the high image of anime on this miserable bigot
|
|
|
Post by Beelzabob on Jan 19, 2008 1:12:46 GMT -6
There is no evil, but I am opposed to whatever doesn't benefit me. Sociopathy... or it's derivatives are variations on evil. The Capitalist Facism of the current U.S. administration (hell all of the past administrations) and the mindset of it's minions are in my opinion the definition of evil. The usurpation of free will in the pursuit of power is evil. The dogmatic enslavment of social constructs is evil. Evil is conceptual at best. Just as the convenience of being good is useful as a social guideline, yet is still dependent upon the status quotidian definition of said state. The Mayans didn't find human sacrifice to be evil. It was just part of the social construct that they had created. It was certainly no more evil than the Christianity of that time. Subjective and subjected to the whims and rules of the construct. Great topic by the way.
|
|
|
Post by luxcthonis on Jan 19, 2008 1:52:19 GMT -6
Somehow I just realized that I never really replied to this topic, but just bitched a bit at..what's his name again? I forget, but anyway... To me there is no good and evil; there is righteousness and unrighteousness. At first glance it may appear that these are the exact same as good and evil, but not necessarily so (unless you want them to be; I do not, so they aren't). Righteousness is, to me, the pursuit of Nobility and Excellence in all endeavors. Unrighteousness then would be the absence of such Nobility and Excellence in all endeavors. I do not delude myself into thinking that I am in any way Noble or Excellent at this time, however I do realize that I am much more Noble and/or Excellent than some others, by my very nature. (I am also pretty damn humble too! I'm very great!) LOL
|
|
|
Post by Rodr Evil on Jan 19, 2008 5:41:50 GMT -6
I do realize that I am much more Noble and/or Excellent than some others, by my very nature. (I am also pretty damn humble too! I'm very great!) LOL ;D Yeah I note your humility man! Heh, I was thinking the same thing about me the other night.
|
|
|
Post by luxcthonis on Jan 19, 2008 15:57:32 GMT -6
Nice, you know they say great minds think alike...perhaps like minds like us just think we are great? No harm in that really. Shit, we are fucking Cthonists! Who want some goddamn it?! hahaha!
|
|
|
Post by iconoclasm on Jan 20, 2008 8:55:23 GMT -6
I like to think of it this way.
I=good Anything I want,like ,desire or associate with=good Everything and everyone else=evil Anyone or anything benefiting me=evil acting good
As thus I define evil as that which act or is against me or my interests (which are very few these days)
|
|
|
Post by eldritchentity0 on Apr 28, 2008 14:42:09 GMT -6
In truth,I dont believe there is good or evil.We just do what gives us that eldritch calm joy, that can bring some inner peace and at one with our Demonic Soul.
Killing and murdering someone who deserves it or did wrong to you personally or your loved ones is justifiable.But the downfall is to hold the hatred and negativity against the person who commited wrong against you that does not feel "joyful and good" which will disrupt your energy field.Cleansing it out will prevent negative back-firing of your thoughts.
Now "evil" on the majority of the world's populance is a different matter.I do not know how to define "evil" in the term to society.I guess anything that prevents us from having free thinking, and not letting us know our TRUE SELF,and to keep us trapped and controlled is a true "evil" in this sense of a societal point of view.
While there is the Greater Evil which is the Old Ones.This greater Evil is beyond anything we could actually understand and its unfathomable yet it is very uplifting if you are Awakened.So I really cannot explain this Evil for the Awakened,because Evil is what they are already. And this Evil does NOT include a human point of view but rather from a spiritual point.Its more ALMOST close to living in sinister joy for the Self that is free, and the Self is the utmost important.Now if someone else saw this...a non-cthulhu cultist, will probably would define that as "Evil."
|
|
|
Post by hiqconsoul on May 10, 2008 17:59:30 GMT -6
Awesome topic..
personally I tend to lean to spiderman...
with great power comes great responsibility..
also the phrase: power corrupts I tend to agree with..
when joining them.. power corrupts, but if you're responsible enough you may evade corruption..
so as long as you remain righteous you will be good.. if you fail.. you will fall into the hands of evil..
this is a very flawed thesis I know... I'm still in the process of learning and developing and evolving..
some of you say that anything that holds you back or in anyway hinders you is the very equal of true evil (ok that might be exadurating but close to it) - I say that a child that doesnt know the big red button will launch the nukes and kill us all, will press the button out of ignorance/lack of knowledge and thus needs to be confined until it is ready to handle it..
this would negate the thesis of any sort of prevention directly equalling evil...
still of course, once the child is ready to handle a certain subject or issue, it must be allowed to pursue it in order to let it evolve freely..
thats my 2 cents for the time being I think...
|
|