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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 22, 2010 7:50:24 GMT -6
Within the Fourth way, the system outlayed by Gurdjieff, Ouspensky and others, there seems to be three major obstacles in the way to the advancement and use of the higher centers.
These three obstacles are Identification, Imagination and Negative emotions. These obstacles are so intrinsically and intricately woven within us as machines that our attempts at awakening before coming into the Work have more than likely been doomed to failure.
The CoC membership would do well to carefully observe the patterns of the law of accident in their own lives, so that they may know them and conquer them, leading to a state of liberation approached on occasion yet never fully understood or realized.
Each obstacle spurs the other on and completes a circle of sleep so genius that objective consciousness would be just another pipe dream if we weren't privy to this knowledge.
Identification is virtually inescapable in our present state of development. We don't remember ourselves so we identify with our experience. Each moment that we are immersed in something without self awareness we are identified.
If we are riding a bike for example we are more than likely identifying with our surroundings, the road, the trees, the sky, the smells, the wind. More than likely our moving center is running on auto pilot and our mind is drifting aimlessly from one thought to the next. It is pleasant. We are identified with the pleasantness of the ride. There is not a sense of 'I am here', or a singular 'I' in control. There are many I's passing through and taking center stage for short amounts of time. We are as a species 'asleep' to the possibility of objective consciousness. I'd like to present an example:
On my drive to work on a busy road this morning a woman attempted to pull into the flow of traffic of which my vehicle was a part of. She was turning into it from a sidestreet yet misjudged the timing and was left hanging over the lane of oncoming traffic stationary, causing the vehicles in the lane I was in to have to slow down and stop. To make matters worse she was also talking on her cell phone with her free hand and seemed oblivious to the potential damage she could have caused and took her time to reverse back so the traffic could pass. Needless to say I was annoyed and became angry at her disregard for other motorists. I drove off in disgust and carried on like this for a minute or so until I realized what had happened. I had become a pawn in the law of accident. I had identified with the situation and forgotten myself, expressed negative emotions and then began falling under the sway of imagination by thinking things like 'what if I had of hit her', 'imagine if she had caused a fatal car crash', etc,etc.
I immediately proceeded to snap myself out of this sleep and attempted to mull over what had happened with a top view aerial analysis.
Man in car, busy road, flow of traffic, woman motorist pulls out, blocks road, talks on cell phone, cars wait, motorists get angry, lady reverses, cars continue on their way.
The energy I had begun to waste on generating imaginings and expressing negative emotion became clear to me. I then attempted to view other occurences of my day like this, but in realtime. I sensed a certain control was beginning to become available to me like never before. I could choose if things annoyed me or if I became upset about things. If I could see myself outside of myself, was there any benefit to behaving in such a wasteful manner? Wouldn't it be more useful to be chilled out, calm and collected, not at the mercy of emotions. What is the benefit of generating 'what if's'? Whatever happens, happens, end of story. Why generate fantasies?
Has anyone else experienced a similar thing with the Work?
By his Loathsome Tentacles!
K'ara Kaiul
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Post by rylehsambassador on Jul 22, 2010 7:56:41 GMT -6
Yes brethren I've had the same feelings its pretty strong with me and identifying if someone is trying to change my views I can stop myself from changing my views at all to adapt to the conversation thus not identifying.The negative emotion has been a bit harder seeing as im a leo and tend to bite off heads ask questions later but I havent been in any sort of altercation in almost 3 years now so im doing pretty well.
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 22, 2010 13:20:59 GMT -6
Within the Fourth way, the system outlayed by Gurdjieff, Ouspensky and others, there seems to be three major obstacles in the way to the advancement and use of the higher centers.
These three obstacles are Identification, Imagination and Negative emotions. These obstacles are so intrinsically and intricately woven within us as machines that our attempts at awakening before coming into the Work have more than likely been doomed to failure.
The CoC membership would do well to carefully observe the patterns of the law of accident in their own lives, so that they may know them and conquer them, leading to a state of liberation approached on occasion yet never fully understood or realized.
Each obstacle spurs the other on and completes a circle of sleep so genius that objective consciousness would be just another pipe dream if we weren't privy to this knowledge.
Identification is virtually inescapable in our present state of development. We don't remember ourselves so we identify with our experience. Each moment that we are immersed in something without self awareness we are identified.
If we are riding a bike for example we are more than likely identifying with our surroundings, the road, the trees, the sky, the smells, the wind. More than likely our moving center is running on auto pilot and our mind is drifting aimlessly from one thought to the next. It is pleasant. We are identified with the pleasantness of the ride. There is not a sense of 'I am here', or a singular 'I' in control. There are many I's passing through and taking center stage for short amounts of time. We are as a species 'asleep' to the possibility of objective consciousness. I'd like to present an example:
On my drive to work on a busy road this morning a woman attempted to pull into the flow of traffic of which my vehicle was a part of. She was turning into it from a sidestreet yet misjudged the timing and was left hanging over the lane of oncoming traffic stationary, causing the vehicles in the lane I was in to have to slow down and stop. To make matters worse she was also talking on her cell phone with her free hand and seemed oblivious to the potential damage she could have caused and took her time to reverse back so the traffic could pass. Needless to say I was annoyed and became angry at her disregard for other motorists. I drove off in disgust and carried on like this for a minute or so until I realized what had happened. I had become a pawn in the law of accident. I had identified with the situation and forgotten myself, expressed negative emotions and then began falling under the sway of imagination by thinking things like 'what if I had of hit her', 'imagine if she had caused a fatal car crash', etc,etc.
I immediately proceeded to snap myself out of this sleep and attempted to mull over what had happened with a top view aerial analysis.
Man in car, busy road, flow of traffic, woman motorist pulls out, blocks road, talks on cell phone, cars wait, motorists get angry, lady reverses, cars continue on their way.
The energy I had begun to waste on generating imaginings and expressing negative emotion became clear to me. I then attempted to view other occurences of my day like this, but in realtime. I sensed a certain control was beginning to become available to me like never before. I could choose if things annoyed me or if I became upset about things. If I could see myself outside of myself, was there any benefit to behaving in such a wasteful manner? Wouldn't it be more useful to be chilled out, calm and collected, not at the mercy of emotions. What is the benefit of generating 'what if's'? Whatever happens, happens, end of story. Why generate fantasies?
Has anyone else experienced a similar thing with the Work?
By his Loathsome Tentacles!
K'ara Kaiul
That post was amazing, K'ara Kaiul, which is why I chose to highlight it in chartreuse and sticky this thread.
AHRAEV NUSZETH RITEE! VIB OOLA INHA W’TEEN OT INHA PH’N GLITH!
Venger As’Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by rylehsambassador on Jul 22, 2010 15:05:32 GMT -6
Indeed it was your an inspiration for all us three cheers for kara!
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Post by K'zin Z'tari on Jul 30, 2010 2:59:34 GMT -6
Within the Fourth way, the system outlayed by Gurdjieff, Ouspensky and others, there seems to be three major obstacles in the way to the advancement and use of the higher centers.
These three obstacles are Identification, Imagination and Negative emotions. These obstacles are so intrinsically and intricately woven within us as machines that our attempts at awakening before coming into the Work have more than likely been doomed to failure.
The CoC membership would do well to carefully observe the patterns of the law of accident in their own lives, so that they may know them and conquer them, leading to a state of liberation approached on occasion yet never fully understood or realized.
Each obstacle spurs the other on and completes a circle of sleep so genius that objective consciousness would be just another pipe dream if we weren't privy to this knowledge.
Identification is virtually inescapable in our present state of development. We don't remember ourselves so we identify with our experience. Each moment that we are immersed in something without self awareness we are identified.
If we are riding a bike for example we are more than likely identifying with our surroundings, the road, the trees, the sky, the smells, the wind. More than likely our moving center is running on auto pilot and our mind is drifting aimlessly from one thought to the next. It is pleasant. We are identified with the pleasantness of the ride. There is not a sense of 'I am here', or a singular 'I' in control. There are many I's passing through and taking center stage for short amounts of time. We are as a species 'asleep' to the possibility of objective consciousness. I'd like to present an example:
On my drive to work on a busy road this morning a woman attempted to pull into the flow of traffic of which my vehicle was a part of. She was turning into it from a sidestreet yet misjudged the timing and was left hanging over the lane of oncoming traffic stationary, causing the vehicles in the lane I was in to have to slow down and stop. To make matters worse she was also talking on her cell phone with her free hand and seemed oblivious to the potential damage she could have caused and took her time to reverse back so the traffic could pass. Needless to say I was annoyed and became angry at her disregard for other motorists. I drove off in disgust and carried on like this for a minute or so until I realized what had happened. I had become a pawn in the law of accident. I had identified with the situation and forgotten myself, expressed negative emotions and then began falling under the sway of imagination by thinking things like 'what if I had of hit her', 'imagine if she had caused a fatal car crash', etc,etc.
I immediately proceeded to snap myself out of this sleep and attempted to mull over what had happened with a top view aerial analysis.
Man in car, busy road, flow of traffic, woman motorist pulls out, blocks road, talks on cell phone, cars wait, motorists get angry, lady reverses, cars continue on their way.
The energy I had begun to waste on generating imaginings and expressing negative emotion became clear to me. I then attempted to view other occurences of my day like this, but in realtime. I sensed a certain control was beginning to become available to me like never before. I could choose if things annoyed me or if I became upset about things. If I could see myself outside of myself, was there any benefit to behaving in such a wasteful manner? Wouldn't it be more useful to be chilled out, calm and collected, not at the mercy of emotions. What is the benefit of generating 'what if's'? Whatever happens, happens, end of story. Why generate fantasies?
Has anyone else experienced a similar thing with the Work?
By his Loathsome Tentacles!
K'ara Kaiul
My friend,as always you manage to bring the important stuff up and analyse it. This is exactly what get on my nerve,I get frustrated because of nothing and start to imagine things there are NOT real at all and wallow in them thoughts for some time. That has always been a big part of my character, imagining things are much worse then they are only to find out later that it was not that bad at all,but thats comes with being schizophrenic,a very active imagination and many illusions. But,I have realized that this is going on in my head and doing The Work has given me new perspective on things,so I am more and more in control and always observing,I am getting good at that. Well I must say that my anger and frustration have not been so much up front for the last ten days,I can sometimes feel it bubbling under but I never let it get hold of me and that has been a lot easier then I could ever imagine and I feel much better,I am more calm and relaxed. Well what else to say Ia ia Cthulhu fhtagn
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Post by Sarak G'hash on Jul 30, 2010 4:17:01 GMT -6
Within the Fourth way, the system outlayed by Gurdjieff, Ouspensky and others, there seems to be three major obstacles in the way to the advancement and use of the higher centers.
These three obstacles are Identification, Imagination and Negative emotions. These obstacles are so intrinsically and intricately woven within us as machines that our attempts at awakening before coming into the Work have more than likely been doomed to failure.
The CoC membership would do well to carefully observe the patterns of the law of accident in their own lives, so that they may know them and conquer them, leading to a state of liberation approached on occasion yet never fully understood or realized.
Each obstacle spurs the other on and completes a circle of sleep so genius that objective consciousness would be just another pipe dream if we weren't privy to this knowledge.
Identification is virtually inescapable in our present state of development. We don't remember ourselves so we identify with our experience. Each moment that we are immersed in something without self awareness we are identified.
If we are riding a bike for example we are more than likely identifying with our surroundings, the road, the trees, the sky, the smells, the wind. More than likely our moving center is running on auto pilot and our mind is drifting aimlessly from one thought to the next. It is pleasant. We are identified with the pleasantness of the ride. There is not a sense of 'I am here', or a singular 'I' in control. There are many I's passing through and taking center stage for short amounts of time. We are as a species 'asleep' to the possibility of objective consciousness. I'd like to present an example:
On my drive to work on a busy road this morning a woman attempted to pull into the flow of traffic of which my vehicle was a part of. She was turning into it from a sidestreet yet misjudged the timing and was left hanging over the lane of oncoming traffic stationary, causing the vehicles in the lane I was in to have to slow down and stop. To make matters worse she was also talking on her cell phone with her free hand and seemed oblivious to the potential damage she could have caused and took her time to reverse back so the traffic could pass. Needless to say I was annoyed and became angry at her disregard for other motorists. I drove off in disgust and carried on like this for a minute or so until I realized what had happened. I had become a pawn in the law of accident. I had identified with the situation and forgotten myself, expressed negative emotions and then began falling under the sway of imagination by thinking things like 'what if I had of hit her', 'imagine if she had caused a fatal car crash', etc,etc.
I immediately proceeded to snap myself out of this sleep and attempted to mull over what had happened with a top view aerial analysis.
Man in car, busy road, flow of traffic, woman motorist pulls out, blocks road, talks on cell phone, cars wait, motorists get angry, lady reverses, cars continue on their way.
The energy I had begun to waste on generating imaginings and expressing negative emotion became clear to me. I then attempted to view other occurences of my day like this, but in realtime. I sensed a certain control was beginning to become available to me like never before. I could choose if things annoyed me or if I became upset about things. If I could see myself outside of myself, was there any benefit to behaving in such a wasteful manner? Wouldn't it be more useful to be chilled out, calm and collected, not at the mercy of emotions. What is the benefit of generating 'what if's'? Whatever happens, happens, end of story. Why generate fantasies?
Has anyone else experienced a similar thing with the Work?
By his Loathsome Tentacles!
K'ara Kaiul
My friend,as always you manage to bring the important stuff up and analyse it. This is exactly what get on my nerve,I get frustrated because of nothing and start to imagine things there are NOT real at all and wallow in them thoughts for some time. That has always been a big part of my character, imagining things are much worse then they are only to find out later that it was not that bad at all,but thats comes with being schizophrenic,a very active imagination and many illusions. But,I have realized that this is going on in my head and doing The Work has given me new perspective on things,so I am more and more in control and always observing,I am getting good at that. Well I must say that my anger and frustration have not been so much up front for the last ten days,I can sometimes feel it bubbling under but I never let it get hold of me and that has been a lot easier then I could ever imagine and I feel much better,I am more calm and relaxed. Well what else to say Ia ia Cthulhu fhtagn I have to agree with this. I myself feel the "old me" trying to take control and continously struggle against letting what I call my "false imagination" taking control. But this constant battle makes me stronger each day. Awake!
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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 30, 2010 22:01:35 GMT -6
Krunki and Sarak G'hash,
I still struggle with these things daily as well. What's different now is that even though I may be under the influence of Identification, Imagination and Negative emotions I can pause and see that I am, which in turn causes me to question their relevance and therefore lessens their grip. It's going to be a long battle but one that I am intent on winning. I'm glad to hear that you guys are also in the battle and winning so to speak. It makes it feel like I'm not alone in this. It's quite disturbing to see how influenced we are by these three obstacles.
The Work has given me a road map to know which state I'm experiencing, whereas before it was all just mashed together and there was no possible way to know what was going on. This map helps one to isolate the different aspects of the problem one experiences and allows you to name them, understand them and then get some separation.
Awake!
K'ara Kaiul Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by ieuan on Oct 3, 2010 17:37:51 GMT -6
"These three obstacles are Identification, Imagination and Negative emotions. These obstacles are so intrinsically and intricately woven within us as machines that our attempts at awakening before coming into the Work have more than likely been doomed to failure."
This thread helped me to see the answers to questions about some of my past, before becoming familiar with 4th way teachings, I was wondering why all the systems I tried, had failed. Most of the systems wanted me to identify, which lead to using my imagination, and when no change came about and I believed myself to have failed, this produced negative emotions, and depression, right back to square one again, and then asking the question what did I do wrong, why can't I get it. This system gives me the responsibility of observing myself, to see how that "me" the machine operates, giving me the answers I need where by I can produce change. It doesn't leave me with a question of why I failed, taking the negativity out of it and giving me the answers I need to move forward and become conscious. The system tells me the more work I do on myself, the greater the awareness, the greater my chance of moving forward to raising my level of consciousness so I can " do ". This brings me to a remembering that all of my different I's are responsible for these obstacles. Now this system calls them by their rightful name "OBSTACLES". Great Post. Hail Dread Cthulhu!
AWAKE!
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Post by ladybanger on Feb 18, 2011 15:03:52 GMT -6
My question these three obstacles are they what prevent us from being awakened...Are they like softwares programmed to keep is asleep and unconscious of the hear and now. Awake Devil's Angel
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Post by darkprism on Feb 18, 2011 17:02:30 GMT -6
Ladybanger, yes, you could say that.
They are three concepts discussed in books on the Fourth Way. They keep us asleep to the here and now and our potential to uncover and develop our essence. If you are identified with something, you lose yourself and are part of the experience you are having. The practice of Self Remembering helps to rectify this problem or obstacle. By reacting to things that happen with negative emotions, most of the time it is a reaction to something happening outside yourself. To try and become a third force apart from cause and effect is what we aim to do. To consciously choose how to act or respond gives us the choice to not identify with the situation that is happening, therefore we have more conscious control over ourselves.
These three obstacles are very integrated in us as human beings. They function together to keep us asleep. Once we begin to Work we can begin to observe this and at least catch ourselves before we become unconscious under their influence.
Awake!
Dark Prism
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Post by boksmutant on May 15, 2011 15:01:33 GMT -6
Imagination could be a problem for me, what are the bad ways in which imagination effects us?
Awake!
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Post by I AM the Way on May 15, 2011 15:51:22 GMT -6
Imagination could be a problem for me, what are the bad ways in which imagination effects us? Awake! If you are sincerely immersing yourself in The Great Work, then the negative aspects of imagination are less likely to fuck you up. Why? Because a sleeper sees himself as automatically Awake which, of course, is an oxymoron.
For instance, if you imagine that you are always Awake or that you always consider other people's viewpoints, circumstances, and struggles before your own or that you can continually make significant progress alone and unaided... then this would be imagination.
Notice how this is different from the positive aspects of imagination such as visualization or artistic expression and altogether separate from belief which might be thought of as willed or conscious imagination.
This blog post might also help: cultofcthulhu.wall.fm/blogs/20
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by boksmutant on May 15, 2011 18:40:37 GMT -6
(Bad)Imagination could be chalked up to "delusions" of ones self, yes?
I'll say that perhaps the opposite could be thrown in as well, such as imagining short comings & flaws. Doubting your abilities based on past experiences while mixing it with some "imagined" scenarios that are even more negative than the facts erg(Bad)imagining.
Awake!
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Post by I AM the Way on May 16, 2011 10:50:22 GMT -6
Yeah, you've got it.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by boksmutant on May 17, 2011 0:45:26 GMT -6
This is something that has haunted me for years. I would replay situations that I "failed" in(flirting with a chic, confrontation etc) & instead of observing myself, I'd negatively consider more extreme ways of handling that situation & not in a good way. I'd quickly visualize "Hey, if I would have said this then they could have said that, & if that would have happened then this could have happened", next thing you know I'm running down scenarios that jump from negative to positive to what ever sensation comes to mind. What I end up settling on is decided by what sensations I feel like feeling, good, bad or maybe I got bored & stopped thinking about it all together lol.
I will consider this a good example of using visualization/imagination wrongly, as it merely addicts you to the "physical sensations" that the fantasies provide. Violent(retaliation), successful(the chic diggs you), victorious(beat em with your witt), all fantasies that I'd run through my head latter to feel like I handled the situation "perfectly". Funny I know but, the Fourth Way so far has cut that down. I'll talk more on (Bad)imagining as that might be a fascinating aspect of the Work for me. Thanks.
Awake!
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2011 15:00:02 GMT -6
This is something that has haunted me for years. I would replay situations that I "failed" in(flirting with a chic, confrontation etc) & instead of observing myself, I'd negatively consider more extreme ways of handling that situation & not in a good way. I'd quickly visualize "Hey, if I would have said this then they could have said that, & if that would have happened then this could have happened", next thing you know I'm running down scenarios that jump from negative to positive to what ever sensation comes to mind. What I end up settling on is decided by what sensations I feel like feeling, good, bad or maybe I got bored & stopped thinking about it all together lol. I will consider this a good example of using visualization/imagination wrongly, as it merely addicts you to the "physical sensations" that the fantasies provide. Violent(retaliation), successful(the chic diggs you), victorious(beat em with your witt), all fantasies that I'd run through my head latter to feel like I handled the situation "perfectly". Funny I know but, the Fourth Way so far has cut that down. I'll talk more on (Bad)imagining as that might be a fascinating aspect of the Work for me. Thanks. Awake! I did the same !
Don't worry, be happy, make efforts.
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Post by boksmutant on May 17, 2011 17:21:18 GMT -6
You mean" do the same?" If so then yes, it is an issue of not necessarily wanting to understand or comprehend "a better outcome" (looking for an objective solution to the problem)but more of a "toying" with other possibilities. As if your mind (or body)WELCOMES the self-induced stress's/pleasures of the images you indulge in,whether their positive or negative. Perhaps a need for drama, a need to make something more than it is due to a lack in whatever area of your life.
I'll equate it to not having desires met. A physical need to feel things you're just not giving the body & so your mind summons up these (mostly negative)images to surrogatelly "feel" the sensations of these differing outcomes, the outcomes you imagine.
Awake!
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Post by pseudosherlock on May 26, 2011 10:23:45 GMT -6
You mean" do the same?" If so then yes, it is an issue of not necessarily wanting to understand or comprehend "a better outcome" (looking for an objective solution to the problem)but more of a "toying" with other possibilities. As if your mind (or body)WELCOMES the self-induced stress's/pleasures of the images you indulge in,whether their positive or negative. Perhaps a need for drama, a need to make something more than it is due to a lack in whatever area of your life. I'll equate it to not having desires met. A physical need to feel things you're just not giving the body & so your mind summons up these (mostly negative)images to surrogatelly "feel" the sensations of these differing outcomes, the outcomes you imagine. Awake! I agree in essence. I think that it's the ego's (perhaps the false personality's, using proper terminology) attempt to gain control of situations using negative imagination, when in reality it has no control. It concludes that if it can mechanically play through every situation that has happened or might happen that it will be prepared to control all future situations. Unfortunately it spends so much time and energy on these preparations that it walks with all its senses closed through all situations, doing more damage and self-harm. I have an issue with my job as a supervisor in a bank call center. My false personality spends a lot of time imagining the next call I could get and all the crappy things the person could say or do. Of course this is me then identifying with their anger and feeling that I'm responsible for their pain and indignation. (And their anger is just them identifying their money or the situation they're in when their debit card provides some resistance toward acquiring more physical things and services that they imagine will make them happy in time.) So my false personality ends up using imagination to go over previous calls and interactions with superiors to mine them for things that I've done wrong. And like you mentioned, it tries to think of ways that it could have gone better or could have "not failed". And then it turns to the imaginary future to picture how I could prepare for future and not fall into the same traps. But what usually happens is that it shifts into a pessimistic series of fearful imaginings of all kinds of things that could go wrong. The solution that I see is simply focusing on becoming aware and conscious and paying attention to what is happening at this very moment. This seems to turn off that negative imagination and fearful fixation with what might happen in the next second. I also appreciate Venger's and boksmutanis's discussion of imagination as good or bad imagination. I was starting to get the sense from the Fourth Way book that imagination was inherently bad and should always be avoided. The conception of positive, creative, constructive imagination is more in line with what I've always thought, and I think is what I was looking for here! Thank you!
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Post by I AM the Way on May 26, 2011 12:24:40 GMT -6
Yes, that is one of the best pattern interruptions I know.
Glad I could be of service.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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