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Post by Narlool L'Pah on Apr 17, 2010 5:59:24 GMT -6
Does the world need salvation/rescuing?
Could anyone really rescue another?
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Post by loke on Apr 17, 2010 6:41:25 GMT -6
There is no salvation. Things last as long as they do. Things begin at nothing, accumulate for a while, and return to nothing. It is a cycle of change. First there was OLD, from OLD then New, New disappears, OLD is still there and ready to return.
IA IA CTHULHU FHTAGN!!!!
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Post by I AM the Way on Apr 17, 2010 9:17:44 GMT -6
Would you not compare your current situation to a man about to fall off a high cliff except for his tenuous grasp of some roots? And if this is the case, then do you need saving?
If I stand on firm ground above you while you reach out for my hand so I can pull you up to safety, did another really rescue you?
This is what the Cthulhu Cult is for... possibly the last organized measure of human salvation. But I cannot Awaken for you.
By His loathsome tentacles,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by egodiabolus on Apr 17, 2010 12:36:25 GMT -6
I think that Lord Satanis and I have discussed this idea a few times, or touched on it once or twice. It seems like a conversation we have had once. Can humanity be "saved", and is it the place of the Cult of Cthulhu to save it? I think Lord Satanis and I disagree, at least to a certain extent, on this point. That is what is cool about the Cult of Cthulhu; I can tell the head-man that I am not buying his line and we are still cool.
So, the Salvation of Humanity. Just typing it seems heavy. What a concept, that humanity can be saved.... Did anyone bother to check if humanity needs saving? It seems like humanity has been cruising along at a decent clip for about 6000 (or more) years just fine. It also seems like in the grand scheme of things, humanity might not be necessary. Go ask a bee or a bear if mankind will be missed if we were to suddenly disappear. If something were to happen with us, nature would adjust.
Saying that humanity needs be saved suggests that we are imminent danger of something. Despite the threat of terrorism, pollution, or a meteor-strike, I personally am not too worried. So, if mankind needs saving from anything, even itself, it is news to me.
Let's say that we aren't talking about salvation being from the eradication of the species. What, then, do we mean by salvation? Obviously, we are not talking about our souls in the Christian sense. If your thinking that, you need to take a closer look at our web-site design. We must mean a state of being preferable to our current state. That seems to be what the Work is focused on. From that perspective, we are on a scale, with "doom" on one end and "salvation" on the other. Some of us are closer to one end or the other.
In the above example, Lord Satanis is on a cliff. He is closer to "salvation" than the other person, dangling from the cliff by some roots. Can Lord Satanis save this person? Certainly, although he will need the other person's help to do so. But, should he? It is possible that the person dangling from the cliff face is oblivious to his state, and has made himself a nice little home in the precarious position. If that is the case, Lord Satanis's efforts would not only be rebuffed, they would be seen as a threat to the other person's well being.
The state of salvation is subjective. Not everyone can attain it, not everyone will understand it, and what we call salvation may not be what everyone wants.
Back to the example, Lord Satanis is standing on a cliff looking over the edge at this dangling person. Looking left and right, Lord Satanis also sees the rest of humanity, all 7 billion of us, also dangling to one degree or another. Saving us all is going to be a monumental task, and almost makes his own salvation pointless if his only reward is hauling our asses up the cliff. Looking up and down and seeing all of us just hanging there, Lord Satanis would have to decide if maybe that this is our natural state, that maybe it is best to leave hanging fools hang.
While Lord Satanis is pondering this, maybe I wrestled my way up the cliff enough for him to notice me, and he gave me a tug to pull me the rest of the way up. The same with Beast Xeno, and a few other members of the Cult of Cthulhu. Even with our increased numbers, our lives can be spent trying to pull people up the cliff, and while we are closer to salvation, we still aren't there yet. So, maybe I look at Lord Satanis and say, "Really, I pulled myself most the way up here just to have you tug me the last bit and tell me to start pulling up other people? When do we walk away from this fucking cliff and go check out the jungle?".
It should be clear at this point that Lord Satanis is generally a nicer guy than I am.
So, looking over the cliff, Beast Xeno says, "You know, some of these people aren't even trying, and they are too far down to reach without falling off the cliff ourselves. Maybe we should just help those people that are actually reaching out and are close to the top."
Lord Satanis, being the brains of this outfit, has a better idea. "While were are grabbing the ones that are close to the top already, why don't we tell people how we got where we are ourselves, that way more people can help themselves up the cliff."
Doing, this, pessimistic me points out, "Hey man, some of these people are totally ignoring us. Hell, I think I see a guy sleeping down there!" Despite these issues, we manage to get ourselves a nice little crowd on the cliff's edge. Still, at this rate we will all be spending our lives pulling people up the cliff, if we can convince them that they should even try to climb.
Lord Satanis (he's an idea kind of guy) states the problem to those of us who are on the cliff-top. "Okay, we need to make a decision. I am fairly certain that salvation is just through that jungle... or at any rate we will be better off in the jungle than dancing around the edge of a cliff. If we all go into the jungle, then no one else get's the help they need climbing the cliff. If we stay here, we might save humanity, eventually, but no one here gets any closer to salvation. The third option is that some of us go into the jungle, and some of us stay here and continue to help who they can. Eventually, more people come into the jungle as more people come up the cliff. Those of us that go into the jungle will cut a path and come back now and then to get those who are ready to go further."
So, the Cult of Cthulhu is faced with three options. Say "fuck humanity" and the handful of us go it on our own... but what if we need more help deeper in the jungle? Say "save humanity" but deny ourselves getting closer to salvation (and what happens when 7 billion people stand at the edge of an unstable cliff?). Or, we establish a process were the opportunity and route to salvation exists, but your have to work for it. We don't save everyone, but those who want to be saved can get it.
Tip your waitress, I'll be here all week.
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Apr 17, 2010 20:38:27 GMT -6
Hahaha! A most entertaining depiction of events as you see them, Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus! Yes, I did enjoy that.
There is validity in what you've written, but let me flesh out the analogy or parable for everyone. Like lemmings, the human machine walks in a slow, stupor towards the edge of our metaphorical cliff. These dazed and confused beings will surely sleepwalk off the cliff to their deaths. There are, as Priest Diabolus has stated, billions of these mechanical humans. And I agree that not all can be saved, most don't even want to be saved.
However, let us assume that a small handful of people wake up to a certain degree upon reaching the cliff's edge. Being startled into wakefulness at the precipice, naturally they start to go over. At the last possible second, they find a rock or tree branch or some roots to grab hold of. And let us assume that the rock, branch, or roots are not very stable; that alone, one's successful struggle to safety is by no means assured.
Now, perhaps I and both members of the R'lyeh Priesthood are standing close at hand. It is within our power to assist those who realize their imminent danger of something. Also, keep in mind that the jungle lying a ways from the cliff is more or less unknown to us. We have no idea what dangers lurk therein. Is it not reasonable to rescue those few who are struggling to live out of the billions who are content to sleepwalk over the edge? Especially when we might require additional aid whilst confronting whatever strangeness exists in the jungle?
But I agree that we cannot stay by the cliff until we die. There must come a point where we abandon the edge of the cliff. However, when it is time to venture forth, I will instruct the recently saved to do as I once did... to rescue those struggling souls who understand the terror of the situation. And when it is time for them to ascend, to become Master, then they shall God willing teach their disciples to carry on after they have left for the jungle.
Please, let me read all of your thoughts. This is an emerald opportunity for everyone to chime in.
The Cthulhu Cult shall never die,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Jul 22, 2010 22:14:52 GMT -6
I love this thread.
My answer to the original question, "Does the world need rescuing?" is that I honestly have no idea. However, me personally? I'm going to try.
Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus and I have had some serious debates over this topic, and he has some very valid points. However, I agree with High Priest Satanis.
I think of enlightenment as a long, narrow path leading to the abyss. As I walk down my path (or race down my highway), there are almost seven billion others there along the way for me to potentially encounter. Some will be walking slowly as I pass them, some running past me, others stopped to look at the scenery, and many walking in the opposite direction.
While on my way down the path, I will take the opportunity to announce to all that I encounter, "Hey, have you seen that?" and point to the abyss ahead. Not all of them will listen; most won't want to hear what I have to say and shun me. Others will be deaf to me completely, whether because they are unable to hear or don't speak my language.
I will stop to talk with people that are standing by, observe what they are doing, get a feel for their ideas on why they are just standing there, and share my own beliefs before moving on (with or without them). Some will begin to walk with me in the same direction I'm heading; some will not.
As we walk, we will continue to herald to others about the end of the path. We will discuss what we think, and how to best get around the tree blocking the path up ahead. Sometimes, others standing by will see us working together to get around the tree and want to help us lift it out of the way (or climb over it), though not always realizing why we are trying to get past the tree in the first place. As we move along, some people will stop and take a break. Others will begin to sprint ahead, continuing to herald the message about what lies ahead.
This is my path to enlightenment.
There is never a guarantee that someone I stop to talk to will be worth the conversation. However, I'm willing to clasp hands with each and every one of them along the way to help get them started down the path with me.
Awake!
Apsara Kamalli Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by rylehsambassador on Jul 23, 2010 6:55:28 GMT -6
The world dosent need rescuing the world needs to awake and look within rather then looking outward for help as our kind is so dependent i.e "what can the world do for me" I almost see it like that saying think not what your country can do for your but what you can do for your country.Think of it in the respect of think not what other people and ideas can do for you but you can do to save yourself.
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Post by lisbent on Jul 23, 2010 21:09:46 GMT -6
The Cult should definately fight for glory, but much value is in choosing the right fights. Ignore the ignorant and reward those searching to awake. The amount of shit will allways be constant, it is only the proportions that grow. And the latin word Occult translates into the english word secret. I hope i make sense?
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haruspex
Adeptus
i'm leaving scars so you can see!
Posts: 25
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Post by haruspex on Jul 24, 2010 7:44:08 GMT -6
Fascinating thoughts. To save or not save, that is the question?
IMHO, everyone will eventually achieve wakefulness. Making a conscious decision to help someone arrive there more quickly only affects the degree and duration of suffering on the climb. If one were to stomp on groping fingers, we've all seen those scenes, could not this be a form of help also- a catharsis? A form of help more in keeping with misanthropy? I guess what i'm saying is any interest (thought related to assisting) which leads to interaction be it active or passive - is a form of help. Whether one is trying to help these little bastards fry (increase suffering) or fly (decrease) one's presentation (values; mannerisms) will affect those whom they come into contact with, leaving an impression of some sort which will help speed the process of extrication
Perhaps the cliff metaphor leaves the character and or quality of help open to positional application, dictated by the needs of the particular cliffhanger?
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