Gnostic Paganism

[thorgrim]

Gnostic Paganism:


Whats this then? Am I about to declare some sort of absolute? The type I have been unable to commit to my entire life? No, don't think so. It's just not that easy. I have tried a few times to choke down dogma for a couple of faith's, it always comes right back up though! I sincerely gave both Catholicism, and asatru a real effort, Catholicism for my lovely mother who I always trusted and wanted to please. Asatru for myself and ancestors, I wanted to honor my blood, and folk soul through the revived religion of the Germanic people. I however, "Knew" there was something wrong about them, and all other established religions. Turns out that's what gnosticism is all about, "gnosis", or knowledge. What kind of knowledge you ask? Well, that is a very personal knowledge of god and the creation. The true Gnostic seeks to discover for himself, through mystical means, the true relationship between himself and the creating force. Knowing that the gods are immeasurable, incomprehensible, and beyond all mortal grasp, arcane and occult knowledge is used to pursue the loftiest of all purposes, light. Light is the only way to see in the darkness of this world. To seek this light is to seek the keys to the kingdoms beyond. So what are we left with? Truth? We have hopefully by this point ascertained that truth is truly obfuscated in it's subjectivity, so we pursue light in an attempt to see.

So what are all these religions people are on about? Well, considering what I have just said, I am certain of the existence of a grand architect of the universe, the all father, progenerator of that first spark, to start the first domino fall leading through the aeons to this day. As well as a whole host of lesser deities, arch beings, spirits etc. The various pantheons known to men are composed of these forces, some by different and varied names, some ancestral and unique to a people. Do I feel that all the established religions are rubbish? Certainly not. Their elitist, pompous, only what they say is right mentality is the rubbish. Men have written ALL books. Some have had divine inspiration, and or, intervention, so the authors say. Gnosticism is a perspective that can be incorporated into any world view as a philosophy, Thelema being the best example of this. Paganism is the lens through which I choose to view things. While gnosticism is at the heart of my beliefs, the model in which I choose to work and bend from are Heathen, British isles, and Heretical christian all at once, while Gnostic at it's core, that aspect should never even be considered except on rare moments of reflection. You should be able to be a good pagan and know the gods are real and active in your life. While the gods are unique individuals,you will find many correspondences across the board from one system to the next, hinting to me, at the underlying, ultimate truth, the All-Father, creator, the unknowable begining of mankind and all worlds seen, and unseen. The thread that runs through everything, connecting us all to truth, to him. The spark of life that unfolds into men and gods, who merely play at existence atop this slumbering giant. The ancestors know the secrets you will only discover after you join them. So embrace your particular version of the gods, be it a Scottish perspective, asatru, vanatru, Hindu, Cthulhu or whathaveyou! If you find it difficult to stick to a pantheon, then don't. It should not be a challenge, it should feel as natural as what I have just shared with you does for me. I have a strong belief in the "other world" as it were. I believe that within this world resides spiritual beings, hierarchical in the sense that some are more powerful than others, just as some men are more powerful than other men. The most powerful among them could be deemed gods, I am comfortable doing so. Knowing this, I also know that these forces are unknowable in the mundane sense of knowing. All things considered I believe gods to be representations of cosmic forces timeless and nameless. If you were to invoke the archangel michael for example, you would truly be invoking the protective force he represents, as the same force may be invoked by another tongue in other words. They would be seperate forces, and michael could be invoked for more than protection, as any god/spirit can invoked for any purpose though some may be better for certain things as we are. Know they are there and powerful, just dont try to pin them down, you will be ran in circles trying to catch them, better than you and I have tried to no avail.

FFF

[sin]

While the gods are unique individuals,you will find many correspondences across the board from one system to the next, hinting to me, at the underlying, ultimate truth, the All-Father, creator, the unknowable begining of mankind and all worlds seen, and unseen

Interesting thorgrim, pantheism. I think more and more people are coming to this pantheistic idea that all is god, and god is all. No matter what you call it. In your own ideologies, you are calling it the un-knowable 'all-father'. It's a very pantheistic idea.

When people ask me if I believe in God, I must ask them to provide me with their ideas of God first. I think that most people would define God differently. I consider God to be an abstract idea, and I believe that idea exists - so by proxy I do believe in God. It's an extremely philosophical question. And, it takes some serious critical thought to get my meaning.

A common response I'll get:

"What? So, you are a Modern Satanist that believes in God? Doesn't that make you a Devil Worshipper?"

[sigh]

People don't listen, so they don't hear; and can't understand. It's [whoosh!] right over their heads.

I understand your position, but I must disagree with the statement:

You should be able to be a good pagan and know the gods are real and active in your life.

I think you would find that the umbrella label 'Pagan' is widely misapplied, misunderstood and is not as absolute as people would like to think.

I apply the label Pagan to myself, and I'm a Weak-Atheist. I see these 'gods' as conceptualized ideas created by man. Archetypal structures. I don't beleive in the universal consciousness or the 'All' as some refer to it.

In your example of the Archangel Michael, I agree; in that one culture creates a visualization for an idea, that same idea may be present in another culture but called something else. Due to cultural difference,s the ideas clash.

I believe this to be the case with the Yazidi people, who are often called 'Satanists' or 'Devil Worshippers'. Teuz Melek, is interpreted by other cultures to be the same idea as Satan. Which, couldn't be further from the truth. Melek gained favor with God, so the Yazidi people believe that by venerating Melek, and emulating the ideas of Melek, they too will gain favor with God. Satan, as most people know is God's adversary, and as the mythos develops over time - eventually there is an opposition to the idea of God. Hence, the devil is born right in the pages of their own mythos. Another cultural faux pas, poor translation. One language doesn't carry the original idea quite right into the next hence the phrase 'lost in translation'.

But, I do agree that if I called upon Melek as the 'Satan' and the Yazidi calls on Melek as the 'Savior' it makes little difference. The idea exists, regardless of our understandings of these ideas, and how we use them.

So, perhaps what you meant was - that as a 'good pagan' I should make the realization that these ideas are real, active and take a role in my life. This would be true, in that I utilize these ideas, as a means to an end. So, I guess that makes me a 'good pagan'.

So embrace your particular version of the gods, be it a Scottish perspective, asatru, vanatru, Hindu, Cthulhu or whathaveyou!

Symbols are symbols.

Consider how much power Mickey Mouse may have. I use any and all symbols, being cartoon, comic book character, fictions, or true life characters - archetypal structures. I understand that these ideas are based in human psychology; and my constant attention to them makes the hunger for knowledge and understanding - my religion.


HP Lovecraft has been described to be one of the most 'pagan' men of all time, because he venerated the old gods, had an affinity for things like Greek Mythology; even though he too was a self-proclaimed Atheist.

[LostSoul]

I truly love watching two giants of deep thoughts working thru to such amazing ideas.

[thorgrim]

Yeah Lost soul, it's nice to have her here for bouncing ideas off of, and off subject abit, defining warlock: I have always liked the term myself, meaning a male practicioner of witchcrafts, not belonging to a family trad or coven, whom uses whatever black or white magicks he can learn to his advantage. Thats us buddy!!

Cora,

I have to give you my definition of pagan as well. When I use the term I usually use it as anything outside the big 3, the judeo xtian triad. I would call all of us here as well as at the Kindred I belong to "pagan", at least as the long and short of it. I know you are specifically "Satanist", and we are specifically "Odian" I am just an Odian with alot of hatred for xrist leading me to embrace the "pseudo" satanic, I do use it as an umbrella as you stated, the etymology of the word being basically hillbilly. Any who were out in the sticks and did not go to the churches or get a chance to hear the gospels.

You called me a pantheist!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr, well you called it, sorta. I cannot deny I have a few pantheistic ideas stuck in my head, Gnosticism is very pan T itself, however I call myself a Polytheist because while the "all" father is real and there , he is ........along with many, many other gods, spirits whatever, I just view him"all father" as Odin. The pantheistic part is how I pull all the labels off the soup cans and mix em up. The big part for me is that it doesnt matter, just work within the correct cultural context.

You say your a weak atheist? Maybe your the hardcore Pantheist or a bit Gnostic as well? You are too smart to be flat out atheist, so what is the source of your sorcerous success? personal power, would be a fool hardy boast, I can only speak for myself, but I have no illusion about the unseen forces at work, and the high prices they can extract from us. I also say pantheist because you say you use any and all symbols, like me you are at least a bit pantheistic though I prefer to see my view as more of a gnostic one.

What do you think gang?