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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 19, 2009 14:16:49 GMT -6
I made this topic for people to discuse spirits, human and inhuman, their possible existance.
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 19, 2009 14:19:41 GMT -6
Taken from another thread..
I have come in contact with too many spirits to NOT believe in an afterlife, but I do NOT believe that we go to some fire and brimstone place, or a shining white place for that matter. The most recent case is the spirit of my dead grandmother. We haven't seen each other for almost a decade, and I didn't cry about her death, as she was suffering from cancer. Yet me and my wife that night had an "issue" with our drawers in the bathroom opening and closing. I had a dream about her saying that the pain is gone. And a pair of dress socks of my dads the day OF the funeral were neatly folded, how SHE used to when he was a kid, not rolled how he leaves them. That is just ONE example of an experience that I have had. I DO NOT know if there is a second death where the energy finally disperses. I have also experienced EVPs that were clear as daylight. One said "we're in your house!" hehe. THAT is why I believe there is more. Maybe it is just temporary, and there is a second death, if there is, I WILL find a way to cheat it somehow. Survive with consciousness transfered into an astral body, vampiricly feeding off the living for eternity perhaps? I do have SOME experience in psy/chi/prana vamping. I believe that we stay HERE, just in another reality, a parallel universe as you will. Of course these are just MY beliefs, and I dont intend to force them on anyone else.
My experiances are shared, they have witnesses, which leads me to conclude that they MAY exist, although the people in question are close to me (one is my wife), my personal reality MAY overlap with theirs to the point to where spirits can exist whenever I am around because I WILL them to. Is that possible?
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 19, 2009 18:09:31 GMT -6
I have had contact with entities at various phases in my life.Seen what people would consider ghosts, e.t.s ,demons, angels, elemental spirits and things that are just constantly drifting in form lying in wait.I had strange experiences with gods and things that fit no genre.Successfully used servitors,tapped into an egregore once.I was an active lil bastard the 3-4 years when I actually did do something.Not to boast,but of my history,I believe none of it.
Ask me if I believe they exist and I will simply say no!Ask me if I believe humans exist and I will say yes-at least as a reflection of what I am!What makes things of that realm that may cross over here,or things I may see when I cross over to elsewhere different is that they may be reflections of our minds manifesting in some form or another.I think humans are perfectly capable of projecting thought forms and ideas without knowing they are doing it or have done it.Theres alot of shit we don't know about that we are capable of.
I believe the stuff I encounter is real only to the extent that the experience I am having is real ,but when its gone I no longer believe it exist.Had I never tossed out my beliefs in such things,I'd be crazy in Bellvue right now.As they say, banish;banishing implies completely letting go of a belief of that prior act or experience altogether.If I need it,I'll believe in it.
I think if more than one person experience a phenomenon,its a reflection of the aspect they all share.Who knows how any of this works.But I think they reflect us or whatever thing is solid like us and has intelligence.
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devon
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Post by devon on Mar 20, 2009 23:55:24 GMT -6
Esbara'kesh, the notion that the universe "recycles" the atman of the individual is sound, and it is my chief belief on the transmigration of the soul. With that said - it is just a belief and I am not sold on the idea. (Never really sold on much of any idea.) There maybe a second death as you put. I too have thought about this because of the over whelming evidence of EVP and sound documented cases of reincarnation. Actually I nod more toward the idea that as long as a soul has a certain amount of self-awareness then it is allowed to proceed on to the next stage without being “recycled” . I see the universe as a totally efficient thing. Why tear down something in development as long as the design is being fleshed out? So no I don't view the universe as a ravenous indiscriminate hostile creature. I think it's simply fulfilling its purpose - to produce fully awakened and evolved beings. I view the old ones (and yes I think they are actually real) not of being in disobedience to the universe but perhaps as entities who are employed by it.
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Madguten
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Woe, to he who hears the howling
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Post by Madguten on Mar 22, 2009 20:19:33 GMT -6
I am sleepy and on my way to bed, but i thought i would bring up the traditional Jinn. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeniePersonally, i can not conclude much on this subject, but i can wonder a lot. I will try to make my thoughts about this as trimmed down as i can, so i can get to bed. (in my perception) The forces are real in the sense that countless people experience them and always have. Out of their own immediate control. To them, the forces are as real as the light we perceive through our eyes or the heat from a flame, for them, they are rule. From a trimmed down viewpoint the biggest question is; Does it come from the brain, or does it have root outside? And now THAT question (in my opinion) is totally and completely inconcludable ( <--- How is that NOT a word, lol) for us human beings. We simply can never be fully sure that we know or understand anything but our own nose. ;D We can only work with the madness we are given. ;D Oh min elskede jinn! |
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devon
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Post by devon on Mar 25, 2009 22:19:13 GMT -6
Madguten, Just recently I have been having the repeated thought that perhaps some entities had originated from the human collective. At first they were archetypes, and this way for a long time until they had grown so fattened by the power we had imbued in them that they had severed the ties, and became free standing archons.
This is one of a handful of topics I find extremely fascinating, and so I spend a fair deal of my philosophical down time entertaining it. I wish it has amounted to a unified theory. Nope, no closer then I had been before. Like you sad working with the madness I was given, and hamming up the roll. It's just fun.
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 26, 2009 9:57:40 GMT -6
Madguten, Just recently I have been having the repeated thought that perhaps some entities had originated from the human collective. At first they were archetypes, and this way for a long time until they had grown so fattened by the power we had imbued in them that they had severed the ties, and became free standing archons. This is one of a handful of topics I find extremely fascinating, and so I spend a fair deal of my philosophical down time entertaining it. I wish it has amounted to a unified theory. Nope, no closer then I had been before. Like you sad working with the madness I was given, and hamming up the roll. It's just fun. That kind of goes along the lines of what I think about alot of demons and gods. Our belief fueled them into a powerful egregore, strong enough to be self-sufficiant, and they broke free, doing their own thing, but STILL acting out in there defined behavior. So in a way, they are still asleep to I guess.. So I also means that since they "buded" off of us, we created them, and they are apart of us, so would that make us our own gods? I also have a theory that SOME may have always existed (like the force of death) as mindless beings, and WE gave them personality and form. Cthulhu MAY work on the spiritual level either because he had been an egregore for a LONG time, or he TRUELY is an alien god. If that is the case, then the Old Ones truely are something different.. is that why banishings dont work on them? Or is it because they are from the internal realms, our psychie, the interenal abyss, and NOT the external? You cant banish yourself! OK im dont ranting.. those are just a few ideas I have been tossing around. |
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 26, 2009 16:37:47 GMT -6
I know this may sound silly but bear with me.As far as spirits residing in the human collective : though possible, I tend to think that not all of these entities may originate from the human collective and that some may have origins beyond our comprehension. The goetic demons without a doubt stem from the human collective in my opinion.
I say there may be things that may not stem from the human collective because anyone with pets (or at least a cat) would know sometimes they are gazing at things our eyes and even people who are sensitive would not pick up.
As to whether spirits are astral being or may reside elsewhere-I don't know!
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devon
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Post by devon on Mar 29, 2009 11:32:12 GMT -6
Esbara'kesh, for me, there is no way of getting around the internal reality. Pretty convinced reality is an internal thing.
jmsn72, oh yes, I agree. I think there are both types, certainly.
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 29, 2009 15:15:20 GMT -6
Esbara'kesh, for me, there is no way of getting around the internal reality. Pretty convinced reality is an internal thing. jmsn72, oh yes, I agree. I think there are both types, certainly. Reality IS how you percieve it.. it is how I percieve it as well.. I believe that the astral realm IS internal, but we can all access the same information because at some level, we are ALL connected. It is like a hive mind really. That would also explain telepathy, people being able to MEET in dreams and the astral as well. Has anyone here heard of dreamwalking? It is something I only achieved a few times in my life, but it really weirds someone out if you show up in the dream and they KNOW you are not suppost to be there! I also believe that just because something only exists in the collective mind, doesnt mean it DOESNT in some reality exist.. the realm of thought and the astral are just another demention that we can SEE into. |
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 29, 2009 15:18:23 GMT -6
Actually I nod more toward the idea that as long as a soul has a certain amount of self-awareness then it is allowed to proceed on to the next stage without being “recycled” . I agree, and that is the point of the 4th way teachings to me.. empower you consciousness enough, and it WILL survive beyond physical death! With physical death, all of our false selves, our I's, die. Only our true self remains. Since the average person only consists of I's and very little consciousness, they have NO way of sustaining their spirit to prevent second death.. no knowledge that can save them.. and they are recycled. They become a mindless spirit for a short time, and can no longer keep the energy from dissipating.. they dont have the WILL to stay together! That is my personal belief on what happens after we die. |
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Post by dzepxich on Mar 29, 2009 18:54:11 GMT -6
Actually I nod more toward the idea that as long as a soul has a certain amount of self-awareness then it is allowed to proceed on to the next stage without being “recycled” . I agree, and that is the point of the 4th way teachings to me.. empower you consciousness enough, and it WILL survive beyond physical death! With physical death, all of our false selves, our I's, die. Only our true self remains. Since the average person only consists of I's and very little consciousness, they have NO way of sustaining their spirit to prevent second death.. no knowledge that can save them.. and they are recycled. They become a mindless spirit for a short time, and can no longer keep the energy from dissipating.. they dont have the WILL to stay together! That is my personal belief on what happens after we die. Wow. Well put. I also believe that it is probable that there are "entities" which "eat" some of the "weaker" souls, either through prior arrangement (thier worshipers) or through direct predation. |
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 29, 2009 19:13:27 GMT -6
I agree, and that is the point of the 4th way teachings to me.. empower you consciousness enough, and it WILL survive beyond physical death! With physical death, all of our false selves, our I's, die. Only our true self remains. Since the average person only consists of I's and very little consciousness, they have NO way of sustaining their spirit to prevent second death.. no knowledge that can save them.. and they are recycled. They become a mindless spirit for a short time, and can no longer keep the energy from dissipating.. they dont have the WILL to stay together! That is my personal belief on what happens after we die. Wow. Well put. I also believe that it is probable that there are "entities" which "eat" some of the "weaker" souls, either through prior arrangement (thier worshipers) or through direct predation. Well, they say alot of times when batteries go dead in a haunted place, it is because a spirit is feeding off of them. It is also said that you feel COLD around a dead person's spirit because it is feeding off of your ambient energy, like your body heat. I believe that it WOULD be possible as a spirit to feed off of lesser spirits or astral beings, as well as feed off of the living to sustain yourself, or feed off ANY energy source available. I have tried some of the psivamp techniques on "astral critters" with some effect.. and it makes them leave your house as well! When your a spirit, you just have to be concious enought to KNOW to do it! Otherwise, you starve. That is why you want to strive to be as aware of YOURSELF as possible. And yes, I believe energy raised through worship directed towards you would also sustain you. Of COURSE this is ALL theory, much like most of quantum physics that is comming out.. we REALLY dont know. We might just blink out or reincarnate automaticly. |
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devon
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Post by devon on Mar 31, 2009 8:18:16 GMT -6
Esbara'kesh, often I can come off as very vague. What I meant by reality to me appears to be all internal is that I believe everything is composed of consciousness. I think that everything I encounter is aspects of myself even other people and entities.
About entities feeding off of one another: I have toyed with the notion that higher powered demons do this in order to manipulate the environment. It could be that many demons have no will but are simply a bundle of negative energy with only an intent to do harm. In some cases where demons are said to be found there is also found a collection of human spirits that appear to be "enslaved" by the demon. Also in cases of "infestation" when the inhabitants have spent a lengthy time in the location they seem to become very negative, and hostile towards others. I think perhaps this is the demon draining the will of the spirits be it dead or living - in order to focus their intent.
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 31, 2009 12:33:59 GMT -6
In all honesty,the more I see and experience, the more I realize that I don't understand.I can't say with absolutely that reality isn't a concept or idea we experience.I know this is a change from what I posted before but I do not know.How do I classify what I encounter?I no longer make distinctions, they just exist somehow...in some form or another.I can't say consciousness isn't just a concept either nor can I say it is.The Fourth Way I can only approach as a concept now.Is this the realm of thought?How can we know?
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 31, 2009 12:55:14 GMT -6
Esbara'kesh, often I can come off as very vague. What I meant by reality to me appears to be all internal is that I believe everything is composed of consciousness. I think that everything I encounter is aspects of myself even other people and entities. About entities feeding off of one another: I have toyed with the notion that higher powered demons do this in order to manipulate the environment. It could be that many demons have no will but are simply a bundle of negative energy with only an intent to do harm. In some cases where demons are said to be found there is also found a collection of human spirits that appear to be "enslaved" by the demon. Also in cases of "infestation" when the inhabitants have spent a lengthy time in the location they seem to become very negative, and hostile towards others. I think perhaps this is the demon draining the will of the spirits be it dead or living - in order to focus their intent. I agree about demons.. they are kind of like powerboxes really. They have very little will when it comes to acting outside their nature.. a demon of greed knows only greed.. a demon of lust will only know how to be lustful.. a demon of hate, only hateful, etc.. I am mostly speaking about lesser demons, which are the most common to encounter or attract. It is useful to take a lesser demon of destruction, and just DIRECT it towards a target.. it will unthinkingly go towards its target.. it's gonna do what its made to do regardless, MUCH like an electric current.. we can just direct it to perform. It's dangerous, LIKE a powerbox, but if properly guided, it is useful. No need to reward a lesser demon.. just guide it.. it's gonna do what it's gonna do with or without you. Mankind is in many ways LIKE this.. VERY little different than demons.. BUT we DO have the power to break free from our programing. Egregores on the otherhand, beings created BY mankind, operate like mankind.. they HAVE the ability to evolve and think freely if allowed to exist. Some Demons seem to have personalities, but I believe they are really just evolved egregores, much like many Pagan gods. In fact, MANY demons WERE worshiped as gods at one time. MANY of the GREATER demons were gods that were demonized by the christians. I do believe that most demons MAY be just parts, the various emotions, of mankind personafide.. others just negative thoughtforms. |
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Post by jmsn72 on Apr 1, 2009 6:05:22 GMT -6
Esbara'kesh, often I can come off as very vague. What I meant by reality to me appears to be all internal is that I believe everything is composed of consciousness. I think that everything I encounter is aspects of myself even other people and entities. About entities feeding off of one another: I have toyed with the notion that higher powered demons do this in order to manipulate the environment. It could be that many demons have no will but are simply a bundle of negative energy with only an intent to do harm. In some cases where demons are said to be found there is also found a collection of human spirits that appear to be "enslaved" by the demon. Also in cases of "infestation" when the inhabitants have spent a lengthy time in the location they seem to become very negative, and hostile towards others. I think perhaps this is the demon draining the will of the spirits be it dead or living - in order to focus their intent. I agree about demons.. they are kind of like powerboxes really. They have very little will when it comes to acting outside their nature.. a demon of greed knows only greed.. a demon of lust will only know how to be lustful.. a demon of hate, only hateful, etc.. I am mostly speaking about lesser demons, which are the most common to encounter or attract. It is useful to take a lesser demon of destruction, and just DIRECT it towards a target.. it will unthinkingly go towards its target.. it's gonna do what its made to do regardless, MUCH like an electric current.. we can just direct it to perform. It's dangerous, LIKE a powerbox, but if properly guided, it is useful. No need to reward a lesser demon.. just guide it.. it's gonna do what it's gonna do with or without you. Mankind is in many ways LIKE this.. VERY little different than demons.. BUT we DO have the power to break free from our programing. Egregores on the otherhand, beings created BY mankind, operate like mankind.. they HAVE the ability to evolve and think freely if allowed to exist. Some Demons seem to have personalities, but I believe they are really just evolved egregores, much like many Pagan gods. In fact, MANY demons WERE worshiped as gods at one time. MANY of the GREATER demons were gods that were demonized by the christians. I do believe that most demons MAY be just parts, the various emotions, of mankind personafide.. others just negative thoughtforms. In theory it should be possible to just imbue oneself with the demonic essence and deliver it right to the target as well right?You did say demons were negative energy right? In theory ,it should not be impossible for an extremely negative person (I mean extreme) with every pent up emotion to just aim and release.Why would anyone want to do it?Perhaps maybe the person in question has no confidence in sending via occult operations but through experiences was prone to being extremely negative and prone to near demonic possession as well.I know it sounds absurd but work with me here. Such a person could be said to have demons around them all the time right?So surely there is a more direct delivery method right? |
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Apr 1, 2009 10:11:20 GMT -6
I agree about demons.. they are kind of like powerboxes really. They have very little will when it comes to acting outside their nature.. a demon of greed knows only greed.. a demon of lust will only know how to be lustful.. a demon of hate, only hateful, etc.. I am mostly speaking about lesser demons, which are the most common to encounter or attract. It is useful to take a lesser demon of destruction, and just DIRECT it towards a target.. it will unthinkingly go towards its target.. it's gonna do what its made to do regardless, MUCH like an electric current.. we can just direct it to perform. It's dangerous, LIKE a powerbox, but if properly guided, it is useful. No need to reward a lesser demon.. just guide it.. it's gonna do what it's gonna do with or without you. Mankind is in many ways LIKE this.. VERY little different than demons.. BUT we DO have the power to break free from our programing. Egregores on the otherhand, beings created BY mankind, operate like mankind.. they HAVE the ability to evolve and think freely if allowed to exist. Some Demons seem to have personalities, but I believe they are really just evolved egregores, much like many Pagan gods. In fact, MANY demons WERE worshiped as gods at one time. MANY of the GREATER demons were gods that were demonized by the christians. I do believe that most demons MAY be just parts, the various emotions, of mankind personafide.. others just negative thoughtforms. In theory it should be possible to just imbue oneself with the demonic essence and deliver it right to the target as well right?You did say demons were negative energy right? In theory ,it should not be impossible for an extremely negative person (I mean extreme) with every pent up emotion to just aim and release.Why would anyone want to do it?Perhaps maybe the person in question has no confidence in sending via occult operations but through experiences was prone to being extremely negative and prone to near demonic possession as well.I know it sounds absurd but work with me here. Such a person could be said to have demons around them all the time right?So surely there is a more direct delivery method right? I suppose you could make a sigil, pour all that negative energy into it, and launch it with an intent. Maybe give names for the lesser demons flocking around, make a sigil for them, give them a background (make up a myth about them, what they do, etc.) and that will give you the power to USE that demon. Just use its sigil like you would when calling a greater demon/god/old one. My house was once haunted by an anoying little astral critter.. I gave it a name, made a sigil, and ritualisticly devoured the sigil, in essance, eating the entity.. no sign of it since. I'm not saying try to eat a demon, as negative energy can probably lead to stress-related illness, like alot of cancers, but some of the "demons" may just be astral fauna.. there seems to be animal type beings there.. |
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Post by jmsn72 on Apr 1, 2009 17:06:13 GMT -6
I see!So technically if they are sealed, they are "tamed" so to speak.Makes me wonder why so many people with problems go to the Catholic Church and not to occultists.If people had half the common sense of a tomato,occultists would have a business of sealing poltergeists and other entities rather than people going to the church. (hold up....good theme for a potential story...{heads off to write}.)
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Apr 2, 2009 9:57:30 GMT -6
And in actuallity, sometimes getting a priest can turn a playful demon/entity into a pissed off violent one!
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Post by jmsn72 on Apr 2, 2009 12:30:21 GMT -6
And in actuallity, sometimes getting a priest can turn a playful demon/entity into a pissed off violent one! To which imo the demon or spirit has every right to be pissed.Some guy walks in and tries to forcefully remove them,that'd piss anything off. Really I think the playful ones aren't aware they are doing harm sometimes when they do.However,if sealed, I bet even the playful ones would be useful when given a purpose from the practitioner. |
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Post by whatsupable on Jun 7, 2009 7:10:56 GMT -6
just a bid of thinking and playing whit my mind,
if you can seal a demon or spirit by making a sigel get it into a shape and then destroy it.
then you also could try to use them as blessing
i explain:
take some time to look for/make a demon or spirit
make them real try to see them and there nature try to form them as what you need like protection
let it look like something like a red dragon whit a scorpion tail ;D
then make a name for it something that you like.
then try to point this energie you try to create to point to yourself or if you want to bless someone to them.
it will become a part of you it will live on to you and you can use it power/emotion like it will protect you from other people spells
just some thinking after reading this tread hope to hear what you think never tried it.
according to if i believe in spirit's yes never really had a close real look on them but sometimes have the feeling they are there
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Post by LostSoul on Jun 12, 2009 0:50:08 GMT -6
I find this thread very interesting; particularly since I did research on the religious aspect of belief in spirits; spiritualism; which had it's hayday from the late 1800's up to the late 1920's...The concept that spirits are a part of the collective unconscience is not unknown...I believe Carl Jung did some truly wonderful work on the subject of the power of man's internal mental powers...Now, whether this is the case with some spirits; is hard to define; but, well worthy of further exploration...
Please keep us up to date with any experiments you do on the subject...
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Post by glade on Jun 12, 2009 7:36:45 GMT -6
One groups says that the soul is unconcious to anything. it's demons and satan that are the products of these spirits and such.
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Post by LostSoul on Jun 14, 2009 15:16:10 GMT -6
One groups says that the soul is unconcious to anything. it's demons and satan that are the products of these spirits and such. Intriguing concept... ...However, I find the logic behind such a concept to be lacking... The soul is far more power than we can imagine with our tiny, little grey matter. It is, though, in most individuals; keep surpressed by such thought. Free of the restraints of the brain, and it's negativities; the soul can be fearsum in it's capablities... Magick is powered by such life forces... Now, the second half of the concept; that the "concepts of Devils and demons" are the product of "spirits"; is also intriguing, and, may be true in some cases...But, who's to say that such spirits are themselves, not demons; disguised as "spirits". Please, give more information of this "group of thought"... |
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Post by whatsupable on Jun 15, 2009 8:15:19 GMT -6
some of mine thinking's
if you look to the mytos if we die we will become spirit's/souls for someone who have a strong will and high concesnus he or she can live others will be consumed by the universe
(if i am wrong say plz)
so we can come become God's like the A:O so to me it looks demon's and god's are just really great souls/spirit's
mine 2 cent on it
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Post by LostSoul on Jun 15, 2009 21:30:53 GMT -6
And, two cents very well spent.  The concept of the godhead within us, is as old as the hills 'round Dunwich. Of course, very few ever achieve that kind of heighten, magickal awareness. |
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Post by whatsupable on Jun 17, 2009 10:39:35 GMT -6
if i am right in what i have already posted the spirit's live on them self.
so do you think it will be possible to summon a spirit/demon/god
i am very unexperienced whit this but i would like to try it out since spirit's live on themself do you think i need to attract them whit something they may like? (sacrifice)
i am thinking about this that if a spirit needs energy to live on then i think a good sacrifice will be trying to send energy around you and hope them may come but that looks a bit like fishing to me and even if you have the right bait you don't know what kind of fish will bite.
hope to hear something about what you think on it i did not yet tried it but will do.
(to be continued)
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Post by LostSoul on Jun 18, 2009 6:47:44 GMT -6
Okay, first off whatever you do...Do NOT try and summon up a god! Again - Don't do it! You may invoke a god; but never summon one up like a ghost or spirit. They will NOT take kindly to that. Whether you believe; that a god is simply an enlighten and powerful spirit...Or, that they're sentient; a part of the primordial forces that formed the universe...They are far, far too powerful to just be summoned up by a beginner(No offense). The reprecussions to you could be devestating. Remember, karma's a bitch...It's buy now - Pay FOREVER!!!
And, a demon...Just, just don't.
Secondly, a wouldn't recommend a sacrifice...And, I believe you are suggesting a blood sacrifice...So early in your magickal practice. Blood sacrifices, in my humble opinion, are to be reserved only for specific worship; and, very terrible and powerful magickal rituals. Again, sorry, nothing for a beginner. And, as you said...You won't know what kind of "fish takes the bait". And, of course; NOT NEVER DON'T make it a sacrifice of something that wears clothes; walks on two legs and has a 9-5 job. Understand?!?! Again - Cannot stress that enough - Don't!!!
There are many, many ways to summon up a spirit; or some other lesser magickal being that won't cause you any trouble. Do the research. Do the practice first; before you go out on that limb that you can never crawl back from...
Start small...That's how everything always begins. Very, very small.
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Post by sorrowking on Jun 18, 2009 8:47:33 GMT -6
Just do your study dude. Its as simple as that. Read what others have done and the results and learn from others mistakes.
To be honest Ive never been into the whole summon this or that thing. Most magic dosent need it. All you really need is belief that it will work.
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