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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Sept 30, 2008 14:06:21 GMT -6
what exactly is meant by this? some of the language in the book is a bit hard to dissect. what is meant by "man as he is can 'do' nothing, things just 'happen' to him"?
also, what is the method of unifying the I's (i.e. how i do i construct a central I, or does this I already exist in all of us, and if so, what is the method of finding it?)
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Post by I AM the Way on Sept 30, 2008 16:24:48 GMT -6
it means that control is an illusion. let's say you plan on being a successful musician in a rock band. along the way, you come across many obstacles and distractions. you find that it is easier and potentially more rewarding to start work at an investment firm until your band "makes it big", but then that takes up too much time for you to rehearse. or let's say, your right arm must be amputated due to a car accident.
through no fault of your own, your original goal has been derailed. this happens to us over and over, sometimes on a microscopic level. we want something, we try to achieve it, and are left with "different" results. however, the individual rarely sees this is a failure, even though that's exactly what it is: a failure to meet one's original goal. instead, we justify it by saying, "actually i really wanted to do this other thing."
so, man as he is... without proper training and dedication to Awakening... is without control, and therefore without will. he is in charge of nothing. 90% of his true accomplishments (not the accomplishments based on justification) are due to blind luck. it's really sad to think this way because it means that our whole vision of our self is phony. nevertheless, this glimpse of our life is accurate.
no, you have no central 'I'. all you have are many little 'I's that don't know each other. what you must do is find the 'I's that want to work; the pieces of your self that realize the need to Awaken. these 'I's must band together, as individual Cultists band together, in order to form a magnetic center. eventually, this collection of fruitful 'I's has the potential to become Central I... we call this the True Self.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Sept 30, 2008 17:41:34 GMT -6
thank you HP, you totally clarified that first point for me.
as to the question of I's and True Self...
so i find (through self-observation?) the I's that want to work and awaken, get them to band together and through more work ad over time they form my True Self???
does the identity of these I's vary from person to person? is it the 'I' that says "I'm going to read more of the fourth way right now" and the 'I' that says "ok, I'm setting aside time to meditate right now" and the 'I' that says "right now, I'm observing my behavior" etc?
or, lets say i want to be an amazing bassist and play in a successful metal band. thats my whole self-identity. would my working I's then be "I'm going to practice my instrument right now to become better" and "I am going to schedule more shows for us" and "I'm going to post some more myspace bulletins and get us more plays"? or is this something separate from Awakening and forming a central I?
my end goal is to be conscious and have and use my Will to attain my goals but basically my question is is the 4th Way about finding and cultivating that self that awakes so i can do so, or is the image of who i want to be in life that self and Awakening is just a part of becoming that, or are they two separate issues?
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 1, 2008 10:20:54 GMT -6
that is a great question, or collection of questions. it shows me you're actually thinking about these things. Ia Ia B'Lahk'Neeth!
even if a person were to focus on getting rid of his bad 'I's, his hindering 'I's, his 'I's that wish only to sleep... that would be extraordinarily helpful.
for instance, the part of oneself that says, "I am going to get black-out drunk tonight". "I would rather put off dealing with this problem that needs attention rather than confronting it". "I'm in a bad relationship that's going nowhere, but I'm just too lazy or afraid to do anything about it". these are the 'I's that are dangerous.
the question comes, is Awakening an end in itself or is it a means to an end? do we want to Awaken just so we are not asleep or do we Awaken because it will help us in our lives? i think the answer could go either way, but i lean towards the latter. being Awake allows us to live in a superior way; we become super-men who can effectively deal with the world on our terms.
if that is the case, then 'I's that say, "I want to set time aside to work on Self-Remembering" are similar and just as important as 'I's that say, "I need to take steps in order to actively pursue what i really want, my ultimate dream!" nurture them both. and for magnetic center, introduce all those 'I's together so they know who is who.
VS
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Post by sin on Oct 1, 2008 12:29:31 GMT -6
Is it assumed that man has an inherent identity crisis? I mean, yeah I get it - we self observe, then forget. After a few times you realize you are forgetting and stay focused on remembering. Then once you remember, you identify all the facets that make up your identity, those working against each other, and unifying the self. What about flexibility? There's no question that we have facets in our personality that are useful in all the varying situations we encounter. Say if someone is trying to take me for a fool, the bull dog in me steps to the forefront and says 'Oh no you don't!' If I'm in a situation where compassion is needed in the forefront, the bulldog takes a nap, and my nurturing side comes to the forefront... You see where I'm going with this? Seeing that 'good' and 'bad' are highly subjective, how can one 'eliminate' an 'I' even when it's proven useful? Some 'I's' could be considered self-destructive in nature, but if through self-observation we identify which 'I' and what provokes it - isn't it just a matter of managing compulsions vs. suppressing parts of our identity?
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 1, 2008 13:54:27 GMT -6
according to the 4th way, and thereby the CoC, man has no identity. he doesn't have his own identity because human beings are not conscious and identify too easily.
we identify with our job, with how an individual perceives us, how advertising makes us feel, what our parents think, our friends, what less enlightened religions decree, our whole entire culture is one big illusion which hands us who we are. if you've ever been shopping, looked in the mirror, and wondered "am i the type of person who should be wearing Tommy Hilfiger?", then you've basically hit rock bottom, identify-wise.
Self-Remembering helps us see our essential self from which True Identity extends.
i don't even know if an 'I' can be eliminated, but i know it can be subdued. and if an 'I' is really useful, then there's no reason to suppress it. you are correct in thinking that a manager's role is needed. after awhile, magnetic center will elect a supervisor 'I' who will manage the other 'I's. why? why does McDonald's (here comes the proboards banner ad for chicken Mcnuggets!) need a supervisor, someone in charge? to ensure things get done and people stay on task. same principle.
there are 3 types of 'I's...
1. 'I's that are beneficial. these want to work and will eventually become part of the True Self.
2. 'I's that are antagonistic to Awakening and that are trying to derail you.
3. 'I's that are more or less neutral. such as the part of yourself which says, "I want a cheeseburger." there's nothing inherently good or bad about this 'I'. you'll still want to observe it, but there's no need to harness or subdue this little voice.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 1, 2008 22:54:21 GMT -6
that is a great question, or collection of questions. it shows me you're actually thinking about these things. Ia Ia B'Lahk'Neeth!
even if a person were to focus on getting rid of his bad 'I's, his hindering 'I's, his 'I's that wish only to sleep... that would be extraordinarily helpful.
for instance, the part of oneself that says, "I am going to get black-out drunk tonight". "I would rather put off dealing with this problem that needs attention rather than confronting it". "I'm in a bad relationship that's going nowhere, but I'm just too lazy or afraid to do anything about it". these are the 'I's that are dangerous.
the question comes, is Awakening an end in itself or is it a means to an end? do we want to Awaken just so we are not asleep or do we Awaken because it will help us in our lives? i think the answer could go either way, but i lean towards the latter. being Awake allows us to live in a superior way; we become super-men who can effectively deal with the world on our terms.
if that is the case, then 'I's that say, "I want to set time aside to work on Self-Remembering" are similar and just as important as 'I's that say, "I need to take steps in order to actively pursue what i really want, my ultimate dream!" nurture them both. and for magnetic center, introduce all those 'I's together so they know who is who.
VSok, i am understanding more how separate my I's are... how i am really lots of different people sub-divided into different categories. im getting that. my only question for your reply is this: How do i "introduce" these 'I's to eachother so they know who's who? what is the technique for and the practical way to go about doing that?
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 2, 2008 9:25:09 GMT -6
observe them so you are aware of their presence and their inclination. when you recognize the fruitful aspects of an 'I', give it aid. when you recognize the hindering aspects of an 'I', let it go unheeded. continual mindfulness alone will begin the process of magnetic center.
VS
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 2, 2008 10:48:42 GMT -6
ok, this question may be a bit odd... has to do with hindering 'I's...
i like being really skinny. its the self-image im most comfortable with. sometimes i have this thing where i wake up in the middle of the night and eat compulsively (on autopilot: asleep) then when i become aware of what im doing, i get pissed off at myself and feel hella down on myself. now you might say thats borderline eating disorder shit and not healthy or thats the work of a neutral 'I'... but if i hate it that much, and it hinders me from being who i want to be, could it be said that its detrimental to my Work?
so would i then want to work on subduing the 'I' that wakes up and eats a bunch of shit (im talking like retarded amounts of peanut butter and shit... just weird) and cultivating the 'I's that are in control of what i put into my body, as these 'I's are working towards me having a positive self-image?
help me figure this one out... as from what I've read it could go a couple ways, but I wanted your input on this.
thank you, HP!!!
ill have more "conventional" questions related to this later... im working on self-remembering more and more, im also finding that its hard to be aware of more than one center at a time. like if i'm really observing my movement ("i'm going to reach up right now, im opening the cupboard, im going to grab this box of cereal right now, im pulling it down, im opening it"... etc) i can no longer also pay attention to anything instinctual (as in really monitoring/observing my breathing for example... like CHOOSING when im inhaling/exhaling, and telling my body to as its happening, instead of just letting instinct take care of it)...
are our minds just made in such a way as we can only really watch one center at a time?
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 2, 2008 12:53:50 GMT -6
it is insanely difficult to watch all 3 centers at the same time, but it is possible. it's also difficult to simultaneously watch the outside world and watch yourself physically as if you were looking at your body from across the room.
do the best you can. practice makes perfect.
in this scenario, i think your obsession with your physical appearance (being skinny) comes from a hindering 'I'. and you're not alone. many people identify with some particular aspect of their artificial self, their mask, who they think they are. this is an illusion though.
you must occasionally get out of your comfort zone. as a rule, always cultivate the 'I' that asks, "what the fuck am i doing?" usually, that part of the self is most Awake.
realizing your disappointment and frustration that your peanut butter binging 'I' temporarily won, is a good thing. it means that you are Awake for a time, albeit, after the fact.
a truly positive self-image is not obsessively fixated upon details like being 10 pounds too heavy, only eating at 5 hour intervals, never wearing grey socks, touching the doorknob three times before turning it, etc. anything done out of compulsion is done while asleep.
moderation in all things... when in doubt, use that as a guide.
VS
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Post by sin on Oct 2, 2008 13:01:38 GMT -6
So rather than saying they are born with an identity crisis, they are born with no identity of their own? Doesn't every single experience, and all the information we accumulate help to shape who we are? Don't we form identities based on consciousness rather than un-consciousness? If we strip away all of that, what's left? I believe there is a distinct difference between personality (identity) and identifying with. In the examples you gave, I see these as identifying with, but it doesn't mean this is our identity. I recognize the Fourth Way tools in pinning down that identity, once you have effectively established the 'I's' but to say we have no identity, seems illogical to me. I'll agree with having false identities, and we falsely identify with, but none at all?
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 2, 2008 16:13:16 GMT -6
i think what B'Lahk'Neeth was asking about was True Identity. unless i'm mistaken, he wanted to know what fixed, real identity a person possessed, also known as permanent 'I'. if we talk about identity that has any kind of substance, that is at all Awake, then we have no identity. when the average person, unacquainted with 4th way ideas, here's the word 'identity', he or she believes that word defines what a person really is. those exposed to the 4th way know that is not the case... a person literally has no definition because everything changes. nothing is fixed or permanent.
however, if we are talking about the transitive pictures that we have of ourselves, then yes... all people have some kind of identity. but this kind of identity is just a mask built on imagination, what we imagine ourselves to be. it is not based on any kind of fact. if i identify with a certain style of clothing, genre of movie, flavor of slurpee, then my identity is a thin, paper cut-out which is not really an identity at all.
permanent 'I' reveals the truth in a person, ordinary identity does not. does this clarify what i meant?
VS
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Post by sin on Oct 3, 2008 13:09:50 GMT -6
[/b][/color][/quote] Yes, thank you.
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