My take on Karma

[thorgrim]

[glow=red,2,300]
A basic truth is, that every action causes a reaction, even inaction.

I believe we create our own karma. Have you ever known some wicked bastard who, beat his wife and kids, and spent all the family funds at the pub, who kicked dogs and was mean to everyone he met with no remorse? Everyone says "Oh he’ll get what’s coming to him someday!" while someday never comes. He does not care, he sleeps just fine each night. So day in and day out he continues with his selfish behavior seemingly able to avoid the laws of karma. I believe when one feels regret for their actions they are unintentionally putting harmful energy forth with the intended target being none other than them self!!! Now we all know the 3 fold law is simply a story to keep the would be hexenmeister ethical. It does exist however for our wiccan counterparts!! Yes their law is very real indeed! By them ever doing something their rede would consider less than appropriate, if they truly walk their chosen path, will manifest 3x the negative energy by dwelling on what they have done. Cliche’ sayings such as "the guilt is eating her up!" is a fine example of this. I am bound by no rede myself, I am bound only by my nature. If I act outside of my nature for the worse and I endure some unpleasantry it will only be equal or less to said act. This is where libation comes in. I am comfortable with a number of methods however here only the idea is important, If the act is premeditated, you should make your sacrifice accordingly beforehand. Remember, every gift has a price.[/glow]

[darkstar]

Yep karma can be defined in a way that makes sense. Some simplistic Hare krisnas and such, think that if you kill someone in this life, you will be killed by someone in this or the next life. That sounds too stupid, besides no study done on past life regression have found that. But if you believe that shit, it may become true, because of the power of belief. So be careful of what you believe.

[bellaxxluna65]

I believe in the power of suggestion, and willing something to happen, "mind power baby...." Like if I had seen the person doing all them wicked things....Maybe I would just will something to happen to that person, but never mind three fold, how about ten fold. I must be cautious in My visualizations. I feel the more people with one thought the more powerful the magic. It could almost be compared to prayer, but more like and eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth......Blessings

[ibiss]

Bad Karma is he who worries.Good karma is he who cares not.Lovely Satanic picture there by the way,got any more?

[thorgrim]

ibiss said:

Bad Karma is he who worries.Good karma is he who cares not.Lovely Satanic picture there by the way,got any more?

[glow=red,2,300]Well, I believe the "energy" put forth buy one's guilt is manifesting in the form of negative incident. I do not believe however, being the fatalist I am that if I were to interfere with the fate or "true will" for you thelemites of another that Dame fate would let that go unchecked for now I am pulling strands about within her wyrd weave. All things in nature seek balance like good/evil, predators/prey, day/night ect. all of these things are dependent upon the other. She will balance things on her own, be sure of that and our idea of justice has no bearing on hers, we will be left pondering her decisions often with a heavy heart. This fits in with the magians definition of magic: "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will." When I feel guilt I am willing ill upon myself subconciously, making guilt a useless emotion. Making magick performed on yourself or on the behalf of another who is willing along with you the most successfull of workings and popularly known these days as "self help seminars".[/glow]

[iandiabhal]

I think karma has gotten confused in the wiccan paradigm.
What they refer to is not "dharma" in the Hindu sense.
Dharma refers to the Hindu/Buddhist concept of negative rebirth, as in not achieving nirvana, and after death, going right back to the birth canal..
Some they say are doomed to repeat this eternally.
This is not precisely what you did to "others" but what you didnt do for yourself..that is become an "enlightened one" a developed yogi, and learn the sutras in the Bardo Thodol or Rig Vedas, and have them read to you at the moment of death to avoid negative rebirth.

The wiccan have borrowed this term, and misused and completely misconstrued it.

There is a law of reactive events. Action - reaction.
To assume there is a "threefold karmic" reaction is not a law, and is not even a good theory. It assumes the universe is 300% efficient, which it is not.

[thorgrim]

[glow=red,2,300]First let me assure you that I have no issue with your buddist styled beliefs. I, while also believeing i reincarnation disagree with the goal. One who has taken the widdershins walk to the underworld and held commune with the pale people is plenty "enlightened", the goal as I see it, being that the soul and spirit are exclusive to one another with the soul being the "life force" only borrowed from the earth and returning upon death, and the spirit being your personality and memories and anything you could consider that makes you, you. Immortality is to be reborn with your memories intact. The underworld(hell) usually fades them do to time and forgetfullness. Once your are lost to the mysteries beyound rebirth you will never return( not my personal goal). To me enlightenment is to have the mysteries revealed before death, to attain the wisdom of fetch flight, and in essence live forever. I also use the term "karma" loosely, for that I appoligise. I do not believe in Dharma (the root word) I use it to mean the reality of fate actually. As stated previously I feel the energy exerted by guilt( a very powerfull kamikaze emotion) comes to roost in ugly fashion. We are all strands in a great tapestry(fate) and as she weaves her wyrd reality, we who have been led from the dark by our light bearer have been given means to adjust our threads course. This will in no way effect the final outcome of such a large tapestry for the end design has been long decided. Most go through their lives oblivious to the fact with an ignorant and arrogant belief that what "decide" is their own free will. HA!! Make the free will decision to be king and it should hapen if it were not for all te countless other threads with their own pattern. Some threads are long , some shorter ah hell im tired your all lucky to be getting this much!!!! BAH! [/glow]

[iandiabhal]

Thorgrim>>Some threads are long , some shorter ah hell im tired your all lucky to be getting this much!!!! BAH!

Ian> Hmm. Dunno how "lucky" it is.
Your winding up comment left it on a bad note for me.

I think the principles you described are mostly subjective not objective factually based concepts, that are full of inconsistancies.
Can you objectively prove the "afterlife" or karma, dharma exists??

But then again I am a Satanist. I dont buy into the notion of "karma" for many of the reasons that Dr LaVey detailed.

"The Eastern philosophies preach the dissolution of man's ego before he can produce sins. It is unfathomable to the Satanist to conceive of an ego which would willfully choose denial of itself. In countries where this is used as a sop for the willingly impoverished, it is understandable that a philosophy which teaches the denial of the ego would serve a useful purpose-at least for those in power, to whom it would be detrimental if their people were discontented. But for anyone who has every opportunity for material gain, to choose this form of religious thought seems foolish, indeed! The Eastern mystic believes strongly in reincarnation. To a person who has virtually nothing in this life, the possibility that he may have been a king in a past life or may be one in the next life is very attractive, and does much to appease his need for self-respect. If there is nothing in which they can take pride in this life, they can console themselves by thinking, "there are always future lives." It never occurs to the believer in reincarnation that if his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather, etc had developed "good karmas," by their adherence to the same beliefs and ethics as his present ones-then why is he now living in privation, rather than like a maharajah? Belief in reincarnation provides a beautiful fantasy world in which a person can find the proper avenue of ego-expression, but at the same time claim to have dissolved his ego. This is emphasized by the roles people choose for themselves in their past or future lives. Believers in reincarnation do not always choose an honor-able character. If the person is of a highly respectable and conservative nature, he will often choose a colorful rogue or gangster, thereby fulfilling his alter- ego. Or, a woman who has much social status may pick a harlot or famous courtesan for the characterization of herself in a past life. If people were able to divorce themselves from the stigma attached to personal ego-fulfillment, they would not need to play self-deceitful games such as belief in reincarnation as a means of satisfying their natural need for ego-fulfillment. The Satanist believes in complete gratification of his ego. "

To hell with worrying about any afterlife, real or imagined. The "real" thing is right flipping here and now, not in some highly subjective afterlife..
Here and now is where we are.
I will worry about any damn afterlife when I get there.

[iandiabhal]

And a big BTW, my beliefs are NOT styled upon the Buddhist paradigm, however I am knowledgeable of them as I am many of the world's belief systems..
That is part and parcel of being a Satanist.

[thorgrim]

Well, I see the clear difference between us now. I give you and whatever you may believe room to move and you cut and paste some crap in an attempt to discredit my "personal" (being the operative word)views. I did not make this up. These are very ancient pagan worldviews I adhere to, and much like all philosophy and religion can be neither proved nor disproved to any effect.I put this post in GENERAL PHILOSOPHY, as in any philosophy goes, it need not agree with anyone elses here. You sound like you are searching for something, I hope VS and the CoC can give that to you. You are in very knowledgable hands with them they can guide you to your station. I already KNOW what my truth is. I was only sharing and hoping for interesting reponses. You may not be used to my sense of humor, that was a bit of it in my close. I have worked a 60 hr week and am still kinda tired, and doing it again tomorrow. If you still have an attitude, then blow the goat. (thats why he smiles so) ;D

[I AM the Way]

perhaps a little chilling out is needed?

unfortunately, thorgrim, i found your posts practically unreadable. they are like big run-on sentences...

i'd suggest more paragraph breaks and concise points, if you want my advice. for instance, what about karma? what are you trying to say?


Venger Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest

www.CultofCthulhu.net

[iandiabhal]

Thorgrim>>You sound like you are searching for something.

Ian> More presumptousness out of you.
Sir, you dont even know me. So dont presume to guess at what "I need".
I am a Satanist.
Have been one for decades..I dont need any guidance in that.
I think karma 'blows the goat', and it is utter nonsense, and went on to illustrate the point using the written word of Dr. LaVey from the Satanic Bible.

As far as copy and pasting, I call it the way I see it.
The point you attempted to make out of it was moot.
When knowledge needs to be imparted, I do so directly and in a non-esoteric manner that can be grasped easily.
If you dont like it well that is your own affair.
You defined you position and I defined mine and illustrated my point.
I am already well versed and studied in many occult and world theosophies.
I am always learning and exploring.
If your path, whatever it is, works for you then so be it.


However, in the interest of the forum, I think I will leave this topic alone with you for the time being. I think we have made both of our relative positions clear and that is quite sufficient.

Hail Satan!

[thorgrim]

Do I need to chill out? maybe. sure, I can do that.


were my posts unreadable? not if you follow the syntax and cadence of my words as indicated by the punctuation.


Yes. I will break it down into little bites from here on. My point is we create our own karma. I said that first, and then went on reponding to posts with my answers. I dont know you mr.D but I like your online persona, I only post here to support your project and all I can offer is my pagan perspective of traditional british isle's crafte. If that is not welcome by my clashing with one of your cronies I do apoligise and gracefully bow out. This IS your house.

[thorgrim]

iandiabhal,

I just made my above post before reading your latest and yes my colleague you had stated we both made our points and if you can respect mine I respect yours. That is one thing I hate about online forums, sometimes you don't know "how" someone is saying something. It could be joking or angrief and it's hard to tell. Just like myself you stick to your guns, cheers to that cuz we gotta.

Nema! Hail Lucifer( the poor fellow who has been evolved into the jewish satan by christian bastards!!)

[I AM the Way]

i do value your input, thorgrim. and i try very hard not to play favorites (though sometimes i falter in this).

i prefer to think of the CoC forum as OUR house.

i appreciate the breakdown. more than aesthetics, i feel it helps to organize thoughts - fore both the writer and the reader.

not sure how i feel about the Karma theory...?

i believe that people can control/change their reality if they choose to. although, most people either don't know how or they don't want to put in the time and effort.


VS

[thorgrim]

Thanks for the support. I am a virgo and require frequent reassurance.

according to my dogma, karma/fate/reality ,

I am very fond of the tapestry analogy. Fate

is a like giant tapestry, with each of us a thread. The wise who

can use magick, such as witch's and assorted other magicians,

priests ect. are able to alter the course of their threads run

through the tapestry. That will not effect the outcome as a whole

but yes you can cause changes to occur in reality, however that

one small thread will not change the look of the giant tapestry by

any means. I like this one for teaching others, you can visualize

this humungous wall tapestry with a single thread representing

yourself. It is very easy to grasp.

Red priest of lucifer, Thorgrim

[I AM the Way]

Thanks for the support. I am a virgo and require frequent reassurance.

no prob. you must also have an eye for details then...

I am very fond of the tapestry analogy. Fate

is a like giant tapestry, with each of us a thread. The wise who

can use magick, such as witch's and assorted other magicians,

priests ect. are able to alter the course of their threads run

through the tapestry. That will not effect the outcome as a whole

but yes you can cause changes to occur in reality, however that

one small thread will not change the look of the giant tapestry by

any means.

i don't think i've ever heard it put like that. i like it, though. i'm a big believer in doing what you can with what you've got. even small efforts on oneself can create great change!

we must be the Darkness that we wish to see in the world...


Venger Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest

www.CultofCthulhu.net

[baphomet]

I don't believe in karma because I believe that good and bad are human concepts.

Believe it or not, I've had bad things happen to me and I've been happy about it. Why? Because I saw them as oppurtunities to learn and grow, and I saw the obstacles as ways of proving to myself that I could overcome them and actually put my beliefs into practice. Needless to say, they worked, and to this day I hold the belief that most of the time we're only miserable because we want to be and we can't get a grip on our own thoughts.

It also seems like they would be very subjective things. From my experience, most people really aren't assholes. They just act like they do because of how they were raised or because they're having a bad day or something.

I do believe, however, the sometimes it seems as though the universe has a very messed up sense of humor and irony....

[thorgrim]

Thank you baphomet, You are very wise. There is no karma, just what we create the same way one may create a magick act, and in much the same fashion, the formula is there. There is no "good" or "evil" only nature.

[Shaz'rahjeem]

I not saying that is real or not, I don't want to involved in this argument at all.
When I was young my father said not to retaliate but to let Karma get.
Puh, Like thats going to happen. Leaving Karma to get someone is coward es or laziness.

Shail

[jameson]

Shitty karma is taking 5 sleeping pilss max strngth with some alcohol and trying to cut ever artery in your arm only to wake up today asking "What the fuck went wrong?"and having to explain this shit in a way thats believable.

[Shaz'rahjeem]

Karma is indeed hard to explain. I didn't realy get your post though.

shail

[jameson]

The attempt to die was met with a result,the aspect that desired to die and be reborn elsewhere did.This was positive,he finally recieved his own world.On the other hand we have to clean up the mess he made and explain these scars away as something not ritualistic.

Karma in this case if it was could be explained as having balanced the situation in a reasonable manner.I can not call the results bad from this point of view or "Shitty"

[leo666]

I think there are many dimentions, many states of conciousness , and we , according to VS, can change reality or our state of conciousness.
so we can according to our belief be and stay in a dimention where karma is real or applie or we can , accordingly vibrate and live in the karmaless planes of existence.

[ladysatanica666]

I defenitly do not believe in that " Three Fold Law " of Karma. i feel if i am justified to do something for Revenge or my own personal Satisfication, no bad Karma will come back to me, i think that Wiccan Reade is for Silly Superstitious people. And i have always seen it as just a bunch of Cock and Bull. It is true people make their own karma, the thing is when you do something, do not regret it, do it wilth a clean heart and mind with no regrets. Even the Satanic Bible tells us that, when doing a Destruction Ritual.

Lady Satanica

[amnesiac]

OK I'm going to throw in this thought anyway no matter what kind of response I'll get...
I am very upset reading all of this...there is no such thing as karma... or .... there is no such thing as a threefold law.
I come from whitelighter tradition, ending up on this board, receiving more answers than I ever did in those 15 years of whitelight practice and man am I confused now....
Could anyone tell me why you think these principles don't exist???
Also I am a Virgo (!) needing a lot of reassurance and most of all wanting to understand this to the fullest, to be able to corporate it and maybe most of all try to deal with this chaos I've tumbled in to for I really love order!!
Anyone care to help me out here???

[luxcthonis]

"Karma," like "demons," is just yet another ancient term used to describe a certain idea without doing it any significant justification.
I have to say that I agree with Ian and Venger on this one, and I believe that Ian actually took the time to draw it out quite plainly, so there is no reason for me to state that which has already been said.
Create your own destiny.
In any case, I must say that my Lord Cthulhu already paid the price for my Karma, when he sacrificed Himself as a blood offering unto Azathoth. So, you see, I needn't wory about karma, or Dharma, or Greg, unless I have a specific desire to for some odd reason.
Hail the Depths!
-H.

[amnesiac]

Yes, H., I re-read Ian's and Venger's posts again and also the part from the Satanic bible you refer to.
But it still leaves me with mixed emotions.


My personal idea about karma is that I experienced more than once the intense feeling of a deja vu.
When it happens you get pulled out and thrown into a situation that you have been in before but not as in this life time.
Something triggers you somehow and you actually recognize things/situations/places and get some kind of flash back.
What is that if you believe there is only one life to it?


I think the purpose of reincarnation would be spiritual growth as for most of us it is not possible to obtain a higher consciousness just in one life time.
Before you come back you sort of get to choose the things you want to work on (free will is involved here) but the hardest part will be to remember first once the veil closed again behind you.
So the foremost important thing to do would be to awaken first, then remember and than achieve your goals as stipulated before you arrived here.


Most pain and distress experienced here is self created as in our own will and not god's or anybody Else's.
I think that will take me a long way realizing that bit to its fullest.
We do create our own destiny, no such thing as fate.

[huscarle]

The way I understand karma from the Hindu tradition is that when you are born you have your lifepath set out before you which is called dharma- nowadays we would probably call it fate but it is different. Your karma is how close to your dharma you live. I believe Crowley called this a person's Will. In Northern pre-Christian Europe it was called Wyrd. To the Greeks Fate. None of the concepts are exactly the same but they have remarkable similarities broken by cultural differences.

In the modern world it is probably harder than ever to follow your original Will/karma/Wyrd as we live in such a unnatural way with such irrelevant priorities.

As far as deja vu and all that goes I personally feel there is something in it that there are moments when you get massive deja vu from keeping close to some ideal of your dharma or when you are nearing it. I believe that when you are on top of your game and your luck is with you again you can be seen as getting close to your dharma or running with it. But then again haven't scientists decided that deja vu is simply some chemical getting released in the brain.

Whatever though there is a very real danger with Fate/karma of allowing yourself to feel totally out of control with your own life and very accepting and passive of events no matter how damaging they may be. Certainly much Satanic thought is focussed on mastering your own fate and life and this is one of it's most positive ideals.

I think Baphomet makes excellent points on taking positives out of bad events happening and learning from them.

[amnesiac]

Thank you, Huscarle, I really appreciate your post!