Post by baphomet on Apr 2, 2008 11:57:28 GMT -6
...can be just as bad as christian extremist. Seriously, when it comes down to it, they're practically the same thing: zealots who believe they have the whole truth, and that everyone else is deluded and not looking at the facts...
Christians believe they have the truth and the proof... so do the SAs. With christins the proof is "faith" with scientist types, they need scientific proof, and there's some irony in that: point to me one scientists who can actually comprehend and explain in detail even 1/10th of known science. They can't. There's not enough time or brainpower for a human to learn it all... so what do scientists have to do? Take on faith that their colleagues know what they're doing...
Of course, their colleagues don't always know what they're doing. Scientists can't even agree amongst themselves. In fact in some scientific fields, you'll find more diversity in beliefs than between a catholic and a protestant. Add to that the fact that EVERY SINGLE DAY they're making new scientific discoveries that force them to throw out old ideas... you know, the ones they thought were truth.
Now speaking of truth, another thing I find ironic is that Scientific Atheists seem to overlook the fact that they're just as bad as christians when it comes to "proving our way is the true way". Because let's face it, how do you "prove your way is the true way?" when what is considered "true" and the ways of obtaining this truth ARE COMPLETE CULTURAL CONSTRUCTS. It's like my metaphor of the Scientist and the Shaman:
"A scientist who was studying indigenous people laughed at their notion of the spirits as causing illness and tried to correct them. 'Silly fools' he said 'I can explain to you the TRUE origin of illness'. The local shaman, being open minded, asked him to do so, and the scientist explained germ theory. The shaman, however, was not very convinced 'how can you prove this to me?' he asked the scientist. 'Otherwise, I will just be taking your word completely on faith, which is bad, according to you.'
The scientist smiled with glee, thinking he had triumphed and pointed to his equiptment and books. 'Well, if you don't want to take my word for it, you can still learn it yourself. That's what makes science true! However it will take years of studying, you will have to learn lots of new terms, train yourself to think differently, and use the right tools. But once your training is done, then you will understand! You will understand because you will finally see the world as I do and be on my level.'
The shaman however simply laughed. 'My friend,' he chuckled 'But that is exactly how our Shamans have done things forever!'
The scientist sneered 'Hogwash! You cannot prove your spirits exist! And science would show your reality is false!'
The shaman lauged again. 'Ah my friend, it is you who is wrong. I can prove to you that spirits exists.'
'Go on and try' Said the scientist. The shaman chuckled again 'Oh I can prove to you my reality... but if you want to go beyond faith then it will take years of studying, you will have to learn lots of new terms, train yourself to think differently, and use the right tools.' He pointed to his herbs, obsidian knife, and drum. 'But,' the shaman continued 'once your training is done, then you will understand! You will understand because you will finally see the world as I do and be on my level!"
So the point of the whole story is what we deem to be "truth" and what deem to be valid points of recognizing truth vary differently based on culture to culture. One could quip about how science is "better" because it is "more efficient" until one realize both of those ideas are completely subjective.
So why did I right this post in the first place? Well, I used to be a hard-core-religion-bashing-atheist until I realized that I was no better than the people I was bashing. Instead of a 'god' I had an ideal 'scientific truth' that I worshiped and saw as the only truth and the only way. Instead of priests, I took the words of scientist, and let's face it, unless you want to spend years studying one thing... you've got to take their word for it, just like the priests. And besides, just like priests, scientists have arguments, can't agree on simple basic stuff, and will revise their ideas and theories every few years.
Unfortunately I think modern society has fallen into a deadly trap: Scientific Materialism as the new "religion". People will trust something because it's "Scientifically Proven" but keep in mind people used to think tapeworms could be good medicine, mercury was good for you, and shocking the hell out of someone could actually cure their mind... all because they were "scientifically proven."
This unquestioning faith in the "scientifically proven" in my opinion, ties just as much into politics and controlling the populace as the Catholic Church did in the middle ages. All this crap "science" has about "statistics, measurments, and data" to further a political cause is no different than the times when they used "science" to "prove" other races were inferior, or when the catholic church used unquestioned scripture to do all the messed up stuff they did.
In my opinion, "science" is the new catholic church. We're taught it from birth, never question it, and have "expert leaders who know more than us, so we shouldn't question them and just take their word they have the truth."
It's a lot more commonplace than you think. Just turn on the news and see how much they use "scientific data" in the forms of "experts are saying" or "new data reveals" or "statistics have shown" and realize how they use that to manipulate you into a certain view.
A lot of people nowadays wonder how people in the middle ages were actually able to follow Catholicism so blindly. These "smart minded science folk" (as they like to think of themselves) like to talk about how the catholic church used it's hold on people's realities to further political agendas and do immoral things, forgetting they're guilty of the same thing.
So what to do about all this? In my opinion, what it all comes down to is constant questioning. Question your own beliefs. Question the alleged "truth" of others. And don't look at the "proof" because what is considered "good proof" varies from person to person. Rather, look at what the "proof" is trying to justify, be it a religion or a political agenda.
Whew... that was a long post. Kudos to those of you who read it all the way through, but it's just some musings out there and me needing to vent a bit because, let's face it, Scientific Materialism is the new catholic church... and I'm NOT going to follow the flock. Give me my goat horns, and lead the sheep to the slaughter, but the last thing I want is for some system of beliefs in the guise of "ultimate authority" telling me what to do and think.
Christians believe they have the truth and the proof... so do the SAs. With christins the proof is "faith" with scientist types, they need scientific proof, and there's some irony in that: point to me one scientists who can actually comprehend and explain in detail even 1/10th of known science. They can't. There's not enough time or brainpower for a human to learn it all... so what do scientists have to do? Take on faith that their colleagues know what they're doing...
Of course, their colleagues don't always know what they're doing. Scientists can't even agree amongst themselves. In fact in some scientific fields, you'll find more diversity in beliefs than between a catholic and a protestant. Add to that the fact that EVERY SINGLE DAY they're making new scientific discoveries that force them to throw out old ideas... you know, the ones they thought were truth.
Now speaking of truth, another thing I find ironic is that Scientific Atheists seem to overlook the fact that they're just as bad as christians when it comes to "proving our way is the true way". Because let's face it, how do you "prove your way is the true way?" when what is considered "true" and the ways of obtaining this truth ARE COMPLETE CULTURAL CONSTRUCTS. It's like my metaphor of the Scientist and the Shaman:
"A scientist who was studying indigenous people laughed at their notion of the spirits as causing illness and tried to correct them. 'Silly fools' he said 'I can explain to you the TRUE origin of illness'. The local shaman, being open minded, asked him to do so, and the scientist explained germ theory. The shaman, however, was not very convinced 'how can you prove this to me?' he asked the scientist. 'Otherwise, I will just be taking your word completely on faith, which is bad, according to you.'
The scientist smiled with glee, thinking he had triumphed and pointed to his equiptment and books. 'Well, if you don't want to take my word for it, you can still learn it yourself. That's what makes science true! However it will take years of studying, you will have to learn lots of new terms, train yourself to think differently, and use the right tools. But once your training is done, then you will understand! You will understand because you will finally see the world as I do and be on my level.'
The shaman however simply laughed. 'My friend,' he chuckled 'But that is exactly how our Shamans have done things forever!'
The scientist sneered 'Hogwash! You cannot prove your spirits exist! And science would show your reality is false!'
The shaman lauged again. 'Ah my friend, it is you who is wrong. I can prove to you that spirits exists.'
'Go on and try' Said the scientist. The shaman chuckled again 'Oh I can prove to you my reality... but if you want to go beyond faith then it will take years of studying, you will have to learn lots of new terms, train yourself to think differently, and use the right tools.' He pointed to his herbs, obsidian knife, and drum. 'But,' the shaman continued 'once your training is done, then you will understand! You will understand because you will finally see the world as I do and be on my level!"
So the point of the whole story is what we deem to be "truth" and what deem to be valid points of recognizing truth vary differently based on culture to culture. One could quip about how science is "better" because it is "more efficient" until one realize both of those ideas are completely subjective.
So why did I right this post in the first place? Well, I used to be a hard-core-religion-bashing-atheist until I realized that I was no better than the people I was bashing. Instead of a 'god' I had an ideal 'scientific truth' that I worshiped and saw as the only truth and the only way. Instead of priests, I took the words of scientist, and let's face it, unless you want to spend years studying one thing... you've got to take their word for it, just like the priests. And besides, just like priests, scientists have arguments, can't agree on simple basic stuff, and will revise their ideas and theories every few years.
Unfortunately I think modern society has fallen into a deadly trap: Scientific Materialism as the new "religion". People will trust something because it's "Scientifically Proven" but keep in mind people used to think tapeworms could be good medicine, mercury was good for you, and shocking the hell out of someone could actually cure their mind... all because they were "scientifically proven."
This unquestioning faith in the "scientifically proven" in my opinion, ties just as much into politics and controlling the populace as the Catholic Church did in the middle ages. All this crap "science" has about "statistics, measurments, and data" to further a political cause is no different than the times when they used "science" to "prove" other races were inferior, or when the catholic church used unquestioned scripture to do all the messed up stuff they did.
In my opinion, "science" is the new catholic church. We're taught it from birth, never question it, and have "expert leaders who know more than us, so we shouldn't question them and just take their word they have the truth."
It's a lot more commonplace than you think. Just turn on the news and see how much they use "scientific data" in the forms of "experts are saying" or "new data reveals" or "statistics have shown" and realize how they use that to manipulate you into a certain view.
A lot of people nowadays wonder how people in the middle ages were actually able to follow Catholicism so blindly. These "smart minded science folk" (as they like to think of themselves) like to talk about how the catholic church used it's hold on people's realities to further political agendas and do immoral things, forgetting they're guilty of the same thing.
So what to do about all this? In my opinion, what it all comes down to is constant questioning. Question your own beliefs. Question the alleged "truth" of others. And don't look at the "proof" because what is considered "good proof" varies from person to person. Rather, look at what the "proof" is trying to justify, be it a religion or a political agenda.
Whew... that was a long post. Kudos to those of you who read it all the way through, but it's just some musings out there and me needing to vent a bit because, let's face it, Scientific Materialism is the new catholic church... and I'm NOT going to follow the flock. Give me my goat horns, and lead the sheep to the slaughter, but the last thing I want is for some system of beliefs in the guise of "ultimate authority" telling me what to do and think.
