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Post by baphomet on Apr 1, 2008 11:26:48 GMT -6
Belief. It's how we construct the world around us - manipulate someone elses beliefs, you manipuate the world they construct in their minds. Change your own beliefs, and your own world changes.
But fundamentally, what is belief?
One view of "belief" could be that belief itself is THE tool we use to interpret reality. And because our mental universes are all "subjective" it would then follow that interpretations of reality would be many. And because to us the interpretation IS the universe, wouldn't it follow therefore that belief is also the "maker" of our own realities?
How are beliefs conditioned? Through experience? I might find it interesting to note that many beliefs are founded on other pre-existing beliefs.
Does this mean there are any "core beliefs" that all others are founded upon?
One thought I have had recently is the idea that our sense of self is merely a "belief" we have condtioned over years and years . Of course, a quick reading in any philosophy book will show you the ancients already had that idea long ago. But in any case, the idea that "we are who we believe we are" is still something I am working on in terms of self improvement.
I'd like to hear everyone's input since I'm toying with new ideas: What is belief? What is the nature of belief? And how can belief be used to further one's goal?
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Post by I AM the Way on Apr 1, 2008 15:02:45 GMT -6
as stated in Cthulhu Cult, "Belief is reality."
indeed, you have stumbled upon the inner path of the Cthonic adept!
VS
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Post by baphomet on Apr 2, 2008 12:08:00 GMT -6
as stated in Cthulhu Cult, "Belief is reality."
indeed, you have stumbled upon the inner path of the Cthonic adept!
VS Have to ask... would one way of putting this be "There is what you think there is" sorta thing? What I'm interested in is why people believe what they do. All I can think of at the moment is conditioning leads to mental patterns, which in turn are like the "programs" of our mind that run and interact with each other and our nervous system as a whole... Of course, I believe the human brain is an illusion generating machine - true reality is too vast for us to comprehend using only our primate brains. There's no way we could look at a table and see and comprehend the billions of atoms and energy forces that it truly is, so our brain weaves all this data into something we're familiar with, collapses the quantum state so to speak, then you end up with the illusion of a table, which is actually (supposedly) countless incomprehensible quantum energy forces interacting in a way too fast and too insane for us to deal with without being driven mad. So in a way the true nature of the universe is total madness and insanity... our brains try and make sense out of this madness and chaos by bringing in patterns and a sense of stability and familiarity... I've always thought that, just as we humans will go online or create RPGs or play games to escape this realities madness, that perhaps that's what THIS universe is: the result of our "souls" trying to escape the craziness and chaos of the universe we only go back to when we sleep... The dream world is the real world, this world is just the game we made to bring us the illusion of sanity and the comfort of stability... |
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Post by I AM the Way on Apr 2, 2008 16:18:56 GMT -6
that's a good way of looking at it. everyday we see the cliff notes version of reality. the short hand filtered through and processed by our minds. the whole of reality, the depth and vastness is too great, as you mentioned.
we are playing in the games of the lesser gods. break out of the system and take control of the narrative. Awaken!
VS
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Post by mari66 on Aug 20, 2008 14:30:08 GMT -6
Everything we create is a product of our minds. The plans for the buildings that we live in existed, one time only, in the mind of an architect.
Why is gold so precious??? Its only a piece of rock, but in the structured society we live in it has value.
In truth all we need is food,shelter,companionship, and sex....everything else is the product we created to enchance these basic survival needs.
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Aug 20, 2008 19:17:49 GMT -6
There is also the nature of humans to inquire, to wonder.
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Madguten
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Post by Madguten on Aug 21, 2008 1:41:25 GMT -6
I agree with this notion, i would love to see mankind stripped of these "illusionary needs". But our flesh distorts our soul on this topic i think.
We cannot be fully aware, knowing and conscious as long as we are slaves of our flesh and mind. Perhaps it is for the better, so that we may seek awakening, ourselves. To balance out the unconscious flesh with the conscious soul.
Flesh is reactionary, the soul is actionary
(you need to upgrade the english language, lol i keep getting red lines from the spelling tool whenever i invent a term, all these are terms that should have been created long ago, i mean how can you have a word for reactionary and then call actionary something else? are you scared it will sound like canary or what?, im speaking generally to all english speaking folks.)
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Post by luxcthonis on Aug 21, 2008 12:22:45 GMT -6
I agree with this notion, i would love to see mankind stripped of these "illusionary needs". But our flesh distorts our soul on this topic i think. I would love to see mankind stripped of their flesh... but thats just me  |
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Post by mari66 on Aug 21, 2008 15:39:55 GMT -6
There is also the nature of humans to inquire, to wonder. Also true, but I should add that such thoughts take a back seat if your basic survival needs are not met. Your mind will be occupied with how to get food and shelter if you were cold,wet and hungry. Just as the riddle of the Universe will take second place if you felt lonely and horny. I suppose its why the priestly class, or shamans in any civilization were able to ponder the stars and magick because their basic survival needs were meet by the community. |
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Post by mari66 on Aug 21, 2008 15:49:47 GMT -6
How are beliefs conditioned? Through experience? I might find it interesting to note that many beliefs are founded on other pre-existing beliefs.
Does this mean there are any "core beliefs" that all others are founded upon?
Now that i had time to ponder this question further, I think that belief(or all religion,faith in general) is a crutch for us. It s something we lean on to help us with our day to day lives.
I found that some people who have no faith, nor feel any spirituality have problems coping with their own mortality or the death of a loved one.
Its interesting how some beliefs condition people to think that everything in life is either beyond their control, or they feel empowered to change whatever they can thru their beliefs.
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Post by I AM the Way on Aug 21, 2008 21:21:46 GMT -6
that's certainly true in almost all cases. however, that is one of the things that fascinates me (and i suppose others) about the traditional story of Jesus. even when his most basic needs weren't being met and his very survival was at stake, he held to his beliefs. he would not break.
that is the kind of otherworldly conviction that i seek.
Venger As'Nas Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by mari66 on Aug 21, 2008 23:16:50 GMT -6
that's certainly true in almost all cases. however, that is one of the things that fascinates me (and i suppose others) about the traditional story of Jesus. even when his most basic needs weren't being met and his very survival was at stake, he held to his beliefs. he would not break.
that is the kind of otherworldly conviction that i seek.
Venger As'Nas Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest Ah, now we are coming into the realm of the Shaman/Holy Man. I think I would put Jesus in the same category as one of those Hindu Holy Men who sit on a mountain top and show no fear,hunger or fatigue. I agree with you, such an iron will is worth cultivating....but to a certain point though. I really would prefer going in hiding then being hanged for Witchcraft. |
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Aug 22, 2008 1:18:42 GMT -6
I agree with this notion, i would love to see mankind stripped of these "illusionary needs". But our flesh distorts our soul on this topic i think. I would love to see mankind stripped of their flesh... but thats just me Mmmm flesh! |
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Madguten
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Post by Madguten on Aug 22, 2008 4:17:54 GMT -6
;D
Seriously though, there is a deep notion in those words you spoke (or i think so anyway). I think that man without flesh is pure spirit. Not to say that anybody should shed their flesh though, lol Nature does this for us in the long run. I think it is more a question of spirit development that it is a question of flesh dismantling, lol
But human without flesh, then we are not creature, maybe we are not even being. Maybe then, we just ARE, nothing more. Perhaps there is no interaction then, perhaps there is more.
Who knows.
I think i kinda see it as if our flesh is only borrowing the spirit. As if some sort of source has invisible strings tied onto every creature. As if the grand soul of that source, is robbing off on us, causing us to be soulful. When we leave the flesh we return to the source, which then redirects us.
Am i sounding nuts here?
When i say spirit or soul. I am talking about that thing within us that is not quite though and not quite flesh. That thing inside us which sorta stands alone. Something timeless, that seems to find root in perhaps every living creature all over the endless universe of multiverses.
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Post by mari66 on Aug 22, 2008 5:38:07 GMT -6
;D Seriously though, there is a deep notion in those words you spoke (or i think so anyway). I think that man without flesh is pure spirit. Not to say that anybody should shed their flesh though, lol Nature does this for us in the long run. I think it is more a question of spirit development that it is a question of flesh dismantling, lol But human without flesh, then we are not creature, maybe we are not even being. Maybe then, we just ARE, nothing more. Perhaps there is no interaction then, perhaps there is more. Who knows. I think i kinda see it as if our flesh is only borrowing the spirit. As if some sort of source has invisible strings tied onto every creature. As if the grand soul of that source, is robbing off on us, causing us to be soulful. When we leave the flesh we return to the source, which then redirects us. Am i sounding nuts here? When i say spirit or soul. I am talking about that thing within us that is not quite though and not quite flesh. That thing inside us which sorta stands alone. Something timeless, that seems to find root in perhaps every living creature all over the endless universe of multiverses. You have the perfect explanation of why Monasteries were created in the first place, or why people go off into the wilderness to seek knowledge from their gods. To get away from the material world in order to achieve "spiritual grace" is as old as mankind itself. How and why mankind started to believe in the gods and the creatures of the spiritual world is explained by the scientific community as being something created by superstition and a need to have a "higher being" in control of early man's life. Personally, I dont regard our ancestors as being so naive as scientist paint them to be. I think there was a time when the gods and spiritual beings did "walk" the earth with man. If we look back into history enough, the stone age for example, we see the cave drawings of humans trying to get the help of the gods for their everyday survival. Even idols of supposed fertility gods have been found dating back to the stone age. |
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Post by luxcthonis on Aug 22, 2008 13:13:01 GMT -6
There is also the nature of humans to inquire, to wonder. Also true, but I should add that such thoughts take a back seat if your basic survival needs are not met... ...Just as the riddle of the Universe will take second place if you felt lonely and horny. Very true, indeed. I have noticed this in my own experience. There were times recently when matters of the heart brought me quite low (perhaps a lot of lonliness mixed with ample amounts of unsatisfied horniness? haha); at times I would try to bring my mind around to a sense of purpose, but often with little or no success. I found that in the depths of Apathy, I did not care one way or another about... much of anything. All I wanted to do was stay alive, somehow, or die. The riddle of the Universe, though a constant force in my spirit, seems about as important to me as headcheese at a time like that. Of course, many here may see this as a manifestation of emotion, emotions being highly contemptable that is.... Unlike the majority of Cultists, I do not see emotion as weakness, or as an attatchment to illusory reality. This may be my belief primarily because it is a common trend for individuals to believe otherwise these days; there is a lowest-common-denominator spirituality running amok on the globe, and I'm just staying as far away from it as I can. I realize I'm off topic, perhaps, but my words are gold.  HEAR YE THEM. That and I just woke up, so I make no sense. |
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Post by luxcthonis on Aug 22, 2008 13:32:29 GMT -6
;D Seriously though, there is a deep notion in those words you spoke (or i think so anyway). I think that man without flesh is pure spirit. Not to say that anybody should shed their flesh though, lol Nature does this for us in the long run. I think it is more a question of spirit development that it is a question of flesh dismantling, lol But human without flesh, then we are not creature, maybe we are not even being. Maybe then, we just ARE, nothing more. Perhaps there is no interaction then, perhaps there is more. Who knows. I think i kinda see it as if our flesh is only borrowing the spirit. As if some sort of source has invisible strings tied onto every creature. As if the grand soul of that source, is robbing off on us, causing us to be soulful. When we leave the flesh we return to the source, which then redirects us. Am i sounding nuts here? When i say spirit or soul. I am talking about that thing within us that is not quite though and not quite flesh. That thing inside us which sorta stands alone. Something timeless, that seems to find root in perhaps every living creature all over the endless universe of multiverses. Ah, you mean your "THETAN" being. (Sorry, I really do love Scientology and its terminology... which may account for some of my insanity ) I was originally going to write something like: "I would love to see mankind stripped of their flesh so that we could get a first-hand look at the soul..." (an oxymoronical, absurdist thought; not meant to be spiritually gratifying). Though I fully comprehend what you mean, I am sort of diametrically opposed to the idea of "shedding skin" to make way for the spirit. I'm a Gnostic Nihilist; I believe humans should try to physically cut the flesh off in order to find themselves. (at least it would make for some entertainment  ) (Disclaimer: the words and/or opinions exhibited by H do not necessarily reflect those of the Cult of Cthulhu. If anyone was offended by H's words, they should probably get an enema due to their unimaginable constipation. Oh yes, kill yourself. Only $19.95 and includes S&H!) Unblessed Be... |
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Post by mari66 on Aug 22, 2008 13:40:10 GMT -6
Also true, but I should add that such thoughts take a back seat if your basic survival needs are not met... ...Just as the riddle of the Universe will take second place if you felt lonely and horny. Very true, indeed. I have noticed this in my own experience. There were times recently when matters of the heart brought me quite low (perhaps a lot of lonliness mixed with ample amounts of unsatisfied horniness? haha); at times I would try to bring my mind around to a sense of purpose, but often with little or no success. I found that in the depths of Apathy, I did not care one way or another about... much of anything. All I wanted to do was stay alive, somehow, or die. The riddle of the Universe, though a constant force in my spirit, seems about as important to me as headcheese at a time like that. Of course, many here may see this as a manifestation of emotion, emotions being highly contemptable that is.... Unlike the majority of Cultists, I do not see emotion as weakness, or as an attatchment to illusory reality. This may be my belief primarily because it is a common trend for individuals to believe otherwise these days; there is a lowest-common-denominator spirituality running amok on the globe, and I'm just staying as far away from it as I can. I realize I'm off topic, perhaps, but my words are gold. HEAR YE THEM. That and I just woke up, so I make no sense. "I deserted the world and sought solitude because I became tired of rendering courtesy to those multitudes who believe that humility is a sort of weakness, and mercy a kind of cowardice, and snobbery a form of strength......... I sought solitude because I loathe that great and terrible institution which the people call civilization--that symmetrical monstrosity erected upon the perpetual misery of human kinds. -"The Tempest" Khalil Gibran Being a Gemini myself, I cant help but be off topic with ten different thoughts going on at the same time. Smile kiddo it pays, people will wonder what you are up to. ;D |
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Post by luxcthonis on Aug 22, 2008 13:43:32 GMT -6
Personally, I dont regard our ancestors as being so naive as scientist paint them to be. I think there was a time when the gods and spiritual beings did "walk" the earth with man. I believe this as well. If only some zealous warrior would have murdered the gods after gaining sufficient knowledge to do so, humankind may not be so catastrophically insistent on losing themselves to find themselves (my apologies, I do not mean to nay-say, but it is merely my opinion that the popular spiritualism is severely flawed.) In my own research this has presented itself as the main impediment of spiritual progress. um.. that and my own procrastination. ;D haha |
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Post by luxcthonis on Aug 22, 2008 13:51:27 GMT -6
Being a Gemini myself, I cant help but be off topic with ten different thoughts going on at the same time. Smile kiddo it pays, people will wonder what you are up to. ;D I have a multi-layered thoughtstream, so when I am saying something, discussion only draws a line down one stream of thought to another, unlike mental thought which runs in about a million different directions at once. I can usually keep track of all my thoughtstreams, however they often end up getting tangled by trying to limit their usefulness to human words, phrases and terminologies. I call this obsolecence of human words, and the increased inadequacy of using them, "Aphasia," even though it is not the correct definition of the word. I don't like correct definitions, its the equivalent of saying "thou shalt." haha The lexicon is mankind's topmost pinnacle of blasphemy against itself. |
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Post by I AM the Way on Aug 22, 2008 15:48:07 GMT -6
then you should definitely read Thomas Ligotti.
VS
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Aug 23, 2008 22:56:52 GMT -6
;D Seriously though, there is a deep notion in those words you spoke (or i think so anyway). I think that man without flesh is pure spirit. Not to say that anybody should shed their flesh though, lol Nature does this for us in the long run. I think it is more a question of spirit development that it is a question of flesh dismantling, lol But human without flesh, then we are not creature, maybe we are not even being. Maybe then, we just ARE, nothing more. Perhaps there is no interaction then, perhaps there is more. Who knows. I think i kinda see it as if our flesh is only borrowing the spirit. As if some sort of source has invisible strings tied onto every creature. As if the grand soul of that source, is robbing off on us, causing us to be soulful. When we leave the flesh we return to the source, which then redirects us. Am i sounding nuts here? When i say spirit or soul. I am talking about that thing within us that is not quite though and not quite flesh. That thing inside us which sorta stands alone. Something timeless, that seems to find root in perhaps every living creature all over the endless universe of multiverses. You have the perfect explanation of why Monasteries were created in the first place, or why people go off into the wilderness to seek knowledge from their gods. To get away from the material world in order to achieve "spiritual grace" is as old as mankind itself. How and why mankind started to believe in the gods and the creatures of the spiritual world is explained by the scientific community as being something created by superstition and a need to have a "higher being" in control of early man's life. Personally, I dont regard our ancestors as being so naive as scientist paint them to be. I think there was a time when the gods and spiritual beings did "walk" the earth with man. If we look back into history enough, the stone age for example, we see the cave drawings of humans trying to get the help of the gods for their everyday survival. Even idols of supposed fertility gods have been found dating back to the stone age. But alas, the stars are no longer right.. for the time being ;D |
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Post by sin on Aug 25, 2008 12:17:51 GMT -6
There's our subjective realities, which is where belief plays an important role. Why do people believe what they do? It satisfies a need, it's a psychosis. If you closely examine a 'believer' of a certain philosophy, you will quickly identify 'why' they believe that philosophy.
I know a woman who is well in to her late 40's who believes in unicorns with such conviction, it mirrors the film 'The Last Unicorn' in that only the 'true believers' can see them, while others would simply see a mare. She also believes that unicorns can reside in people, and much like sensing the 'aura' of a person, she can see their horn. This quickly identifies a person's character to her. Why does she believe this? A long laundry list of childhood traumas. I believe it's her way of holding on to 'good' childhood memories, when all she has is horror. It's a way to stay connected to her childhoold, safe from the trauma as well as living it in adulthood when she was robbed of it in youth.
This is just one example.
Why do people believe in the Supernatural, when clearly everything - even the unexplainable is quite natural?
Why do people believe in aliens, or mythological creatures or anything for that matter? It satisfies a need. Here I am a logical and rational being, embracing a new theology. Do I believe it? I believe in it, and it's potential to affect human development. What are my interests in this area and why? I'm bored of life, there's got to be something more interesting than the mundane routine of working, and paying bills! Sure, you have isolated moments of joy, but how do you live out your days ecstatically? Through exploration and discovery. I could have been attracted to a number of topics that gets my blood pumping with excitement, why the occult? It's always been that way, from an early age. I read 'Interview with a Vampire'. and 'The Satanic Bible' when I was in the 4th grade. I've always had an occult-oriented mind. Is it in the blood? Is it resident on a quantum level? Who the hell knows, it's possible. If my passion was understanding 'why', I'd be drowning in psychology rather than exploring 'hidden' things.
:-P
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Post by I AM the Way on Aug 25, 2008 16:01:44 GMT -6
for a guy who loves hardcore movies (Terminator, Prince of Darkness, Anal Rampage #57) i must admit that i do like The Last Unicorn, entertaining fantasy coupled with a touching story.
anyways, it is important to find out why someone has a certain belief. for example, is a belief born of need, environment, or aesthetics? people don't usually examine what they believe and why; that's too bad.
lots to be learned...
Venger As'Nas Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by jmsn on Aug 25, 2008 18:30:11 GMT -6
Wow reading this thread made me look back over the various paradigms I had over the years.I am amazed at the different mindsets I had and things that occurred on a psychological and magickal scale as a result of beliefs.
Right now I operate under no paradigm and don't believe much of anything.It is until I hit this null state that I was able to look back and actually see how much they did influence my subjective reality.Sometimes its easier to see from the void than it is seeing it in the moment.
That said belief is a very delicate tool that can be a powder keg if toyed with by a recipient who does no know what they want.I think beliefs can influence mental states or mental disorders if not careful(i know firsthand) Kinda why a null paradigm is good for me.Aside from producing good art,theres nothing more I really want.
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Madguten
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Post by Madguten on Aug 26, 2008 6:52:19 GMT -6
Yes, i always say, believe nothing, for nothing IS the truth.
It is wise not to cage oneself in, trapped in the halls of the labyrinth of Vida on the planet of Ea. And by that i mean it is wise to not imprison oneself mentally, spiritually or physical. ;D
That is why i preach the path of the turtle before the path of the hare. So that the changes, input and effort, does not tumble down burying the seeker. There is no goal, only the path. There is no finish line that must be reached, there is only the way itself. This is the path of the wanderer. The wanderer is the conscious seeker.
But....
I believe A. Crowley said something like,
Burn up thy every though, so that it may rise from the ashes like the phoenix
Who knows, but ourselves?
I generally just believe in balance. If the balance is good, all is good. Period. (but that is just my little illusion in my little world, i realize that.)
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Post by sin on Aug 26, 2008 10:19:15 GMT -6
for a guy who loves hardcore movies (Terminator, Prince of Darkness, Anal Rampage #57) i must admit that i do like The Last Unicorn, entertaining fantasy coupled with a touching story.
anyways, it is important to find out why someone has a certain belief. for example, is a belief born of need, environment, or aesthetics? people don't usually examine what they believe and why; that's too bad.
lots to be learned...
Venger As'Nas Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest *lol* I know, I do too. I have the 25th Anniversary Digitally Remastered DVD, and of course my father took me to see it when I was a little girl. Mia Farrow singing? How can you miss that! Anyway, precisely Venger. We should examine why we believe the things we do, and the majority of people just don't. This is all in the realm of 'blind belief' or 'blind faith'. Close examination will reveal a lot about ourselves, where our beliefs originate from can aid us in understanding our own psyches. If a person has a fear of the dark, where does that come from? Why do they believe the dark will 'get them'? If a person is easily intimidated by a strong personality, and find themselves cowering; I generally look to family upbringing, or an abusive relationship with a person of any capacity. I believe if we can't overcome our own delusions, how can we progress forward in any way, shape or form? What powerful magician has a fear of water, or hides under the bed in a thunder storm? lol |
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