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Post by scarlett156 on Sept 6, 2006 21:54:07 GMT -6
I certainly can't answer for the rest of the group by any means-- not all of the members of this board, or even many of them, are members of the CoC anyway. I have discussed my satanic philosophy extensively on other forums, and am kinda busy right now so I'll just answer briefly and maybe come back later and add some more. (And just now the phone rang, haha!) My own "evil" nature is about 75% intense self-interest/self-worship, 10% perverse liking for messing with and tricking normal people (please let's not get into a big discussion of what "normal" means right now-- YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN! , 10% amoral uncaringness of how others view my actions, and 5% intentional will to undermine and damage the established social structure, i.e., "anarchy". I also have a personal liking for the horrible and grotesque, and find a calmness in regarding scenes of desolation and waste. But I find baby bunnies no less endearing for all that. I freely and without qualms commit crimes of vice, grift, theft, and vandalism-- but I would never intentionally hurt an animal or small child, rip off an elderly person, or frighten a group of people quietly enjoying themselves at a park. I generally follow an ethos of "live and let live" which springs more from classic Objectivist philosophy than it does from passive tolerance-- i.e., "I love my existence and hate whoever interferes with it; therefore I recognize the same values in you, and try not to fuck with you." I'm absolutely merciless towards my enemies, and will freely lie to anyone-- in that sense I am "evil" according to the dictionary. Anyway-- that's my own take on the deal. When we talk about the ethos of Cthulhu, of course, we're not discussing human values or morality at all, let me add, or anything close to it. To the Old Gods, we're just chunks of hamburger. I do try to attain that state of mind once in awhile, but I definitely don't LIVE in it.
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Post by iandiabhal on Sept 6, 2006 23:29:20 GMT -6
I would think the more appropriate question would be do you think there is such a thing as "evil"?
Personally I dont think so. Sure lots of nasty stuff happens, people are merciless and cruel..but those are natural and sometimes unnatural human behaviors. Some thought of Hitler as evil. Some thought Hitler was a god or demigod. You could characterize his musings as madness or insanity of a high functioning state. However, insanity is a human mental disease, not "inate evil". A pedophile is disgusting...but that too is a diseased human..usually brought on by being abused or molested themselves. Not an excuse mind for their activities (nor the person who abused them)...but I still do not characterize diseased states of mind as "evil". This is simplistic thinking. Can a disease be evil? It is either some bacteriological agent or a chemical, hormonal imbalance or other organic/genetic deviation or mutation. If it is viral or bacteriological, the disease is following its own course of survival from host to host.
Is that evil? The virus is just trying to survive.
People are misguided, insane, diseased, obsessed, fanatical, submissive, domineering..but these are human traits, foibles or weaknesses bred of tens of thousands of years of human evolution..be it petty shoplifting or sacking, looting, pillaging and razing a major city to the ground and enslaving all of its inhabitants. Murder? My opinion is it is "wrong" to deprive someone of their life, IF they are doing no harm to you or others. This would be defined as a motiveless murder. Self-defense is not defined as murder. From my own Satanic perspective life is precious..especially my own and those I care about. I dont necessarily care about anyone else's life, but I am also intelligent enough to know that human life is interconnected and I have to deal with others in day to day life and survival like it nor not, is at times a communal human instinct.
If someone harms others and presents a danger, then its "Lex Talionis". But that is a subjective definition. The executioner who kills the condemned convict is committing 'murder'...in the strict objective sense..but its a matter of subjective and temporal definitions of law and relative ethics..he is following "orders" and the established law and authority of the land. Well so were the executioners at Treblinka, Auschwitz. Both examples committed or commit the acts, behind the notion, given to them by others that by doing so they were or are helping to rid the land of dangerous and undesirable people that they and those in authority would consider to be "evil".
When you see a young Cape Buffalo calf or gazelle still what could be characterized as "infants" stalked and pulled down by crafty crouching sneaky lionesses and devoured alive..is that "evil"? Then people get all pragmatic, philosophical and talk of the "cycle of life" and food chains.. How do you suppose the human animal got to the top of the food chain? It wasnt his inate ability to be nicey nice. It was his cleverness and sophistication and highly evolved skills at killing, murdering and enslaving other animals and humans. Other animals are sharper eyed, fiercer, stronger.. Its distasteful to some, but it is the truth. Eyes in front, stereoscopic vision, these are the highly evolved traits of the predator, otherwise your eyes would be on the sides of your head like ruminating prey animals.
But again, you give me one example of something that is truly evil or possesses qualities objectively speaking of inate evil. There are a lot of built-in discrepancies, contradictions, blinkering, ethnocentrically based viewing and even hypocrisy in the way things are defined...so how can things be all black or white all nice and neat? Can something be a little or half "good"? Conversely can something be just a "little evil"?
Let me throw another question at you I asked in another group. Situation: You are on the pavement. You see a kid dash out in front of you in the path of a speeding oncoming car. You have a second to act. He isnt that far away..just a few yards, but you can see the car barrelling down in your peripheral vision.. You might be able to save the kid, on the other hand its just as likely you might die or be crippled as well trying. What do you do? You have just a split-second to decide. Do you try to save the kid, or do you just watch him get mowed down? Here is where the definition of things are...
If you try to save him and are hurt or killed is that a selfless noble act or just plain stupid?
If you just stand there and callously watch him get mown down is that "evil" or selfishness or rational self interest?
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Post by Yevathik on Sept 7, 2006 0:48:13 GMT -6
my definition of good or evil.
Another one of humanity's constant (fruitless) attempts to categorize the universe.
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Post by scarlett156 on Sept 7, 2006 0:50:19 GMT -6
It's often helpful to personify or objectify qualities that are purely perceptual-- i.e. "good" as a warm summer day or a favorite person's smile, and "evil" as a malignant dictator bent on wiping out an entire race of humans. Naturally we all know that it's never that simple-- but it's good for our minds to be able to attach these purely abstract concepts to some concrete image so we can KNOW WHAT WE THINK about them. In this same manner an intelligent person can find a use for worship of a "higher force". That is to say, perhaps there is no God, no Devil-- nothing but human consciousness, right? But it helps us to understand these concepts and why we construct these concepts to objectify and worship or revile them.
As a chaos magician I strive to keep my belief in flux, and never let it become stagnant or attached to any one thing. I can believe in God and the power of "goodness"-- or not. There's seldom a day that goes by without me having some kind of dialog with Baphomet-- but do I REALLY think he's watching me, and cares what I do? Fuck, no! Or rather-- if he is, I don't care. Either way, I go about my living with a clear conscience.
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Post by I AM the Way on Sept 7, 2006 14:37:07 GMT -6
good discussion. yes, i believe human notions of good and evil are relative. and i also try to stay within the law whenever possible. i find it perfectly acceptable to attack and destroy a person using black magic. but since i know murder is illegal, i'm not about to destroy someone in person with a hatchet. so i encourage all Cultists to abide by their country's laws. having said that, if we lived in a society of my choosing, then i'd look more favorably on "real" evil, such as rape, murder, pillaging, etc. i feel there has to be some kind of order, but nothing too restrictive either. perhaps dividing people into separate groups with different rights depending on an individual's aesthetics, loyalty, commitment, and understanding of the Cthulhu Cult's paradigm. that may seem kind of fascist, Nietzschean, or even Nazi-esque... but i think it would work. Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest www.CultofCthulhu.netp.s. love the cat outfit...
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Post by ibiss on Sept 7, 2006 18:09:37 GMT -6
Evil eh?Evil is the knife at your thoat when you realize the knife is also in your hand.Anything hindering my freedom outside of my own choice to hinder my own developement is evil.The fact I have to adhere to these earthly laws are evil to me when I recognise my malicious desires.Evil is the depression we slip into when we no longer desire anything and potential is snuffed out.Evil is the act of regretting which reveals the contending forces within.
Is it evil to rape ,murder,steal and burn things?ONLY when it gets in MY wasy.Darkness is when we are out of options and the I is tuck following a linear path.For there can be none darker than playing the role of a mundane automaton.
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Post by scarlett156 on Sept 8, 2006 12:58:33 GMT -6
My input would be that the mentality and process of "victimization" is much more complicated that the average person would suspect.
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Post by scarlett156 on Sept 9, 2006 2:14:13 GMT -6
I see what you are saying, and I can go there to an extent: It only serves to compound one's "evil" if one starts to whine the moment a wrong is perceived! It's a perverse thrill, and also stands as a time-honored survival technique; i.e., "I was only following orders!" *snivel, cringe*
If you can make those you have harmed FEEL SORRY FOR YOU, then the harm you have done is that much greater, plus you stand a much better chance for escape before justice falls upon you.
And yet that's not exactly what I meant when I talked about victimization. This is something complex and hard to describe to someone who may have been severely hurt, robbed, or swindled at some juncture in his or her life, but let me just say that I'm not a stranger to any of these things on EITHER end, ok?
I will try to state this as simply as possible, and hope sincerely that not too many become horribly offended by my words:
Here we go: For a living creature, very action involves a CONSCIOUS DECISION. Each conscious decision arises from a process of CHOOSING. In every moment of our lives-- yea, even when we are asleep, unconscious, or intensely physically occupied-- we make choices. If we love our lives and value happiness, our choices generally lead us in this direction of continued life and maximum happiness.
Here's where it gets tricky: If we for some reason DO NOT LOVE OUR LIVES OR VALUE HAPPINESS, THEN WE MAKE CHOICES THAT LEAD US TOWARD FAILURE ON BOTH THOSE COUNTS.
Sometimes the degree of expected failure is small-- as in the case of someone who constantly misplaces his or her car keys (for as we all know it may lead you into the risk of losing employment or some other valued relationship if you are constantly late for appointments, or arrive in a disorganized state).
Sometimes the degree of expected failure is vast-- as in the example of someone who constantly neglects to buckle his seatbelt when driving a car.
Sometimes the "expected degree of failure" will transform itself into "expected degree of tragedy", if the person who never buckles his seatbelt also never places his infant in a safe carrier, or does not buckle the carrier in when traveling in the car.
Predators are those who take advantage of other organisms that place themselves in positions indicative of expectation of failure.
This is as some of you may recognize a tantric axiom.
Simply put: "Victimization is not haphazard."
I hope this was helpful! (My brain hurts...)
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Post by darkstar on Sept 9, 2006 9:50:00 GMT -6
[glow=red,2,300]My notions of good and evil are based on the self. Good promotes my well being, while evil is a self-destructive act.[/glow]
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mike
Novitiate
Posts: 17
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Post by mike on Sept 10, 2006 2:44:08 GMT -6
Good & Evil are dismissive terms used to label those actions that the user of the terms doesn’t understand, semantically speaking Good and Evil are borne of ignorance; an unwillingness to consider the full ramifications of individual action; a kind of intellectual laziness that instead offers them a ‘one size fits all’ prescription. The terms are the lynch pins of consensus morality, and needless to say, when these terms are used, they betray numerous irregularities in how that individual perceives reality and expose the contradictions inherent in any codified form of morality.
Consider one action at a time.
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Post by Yevathik on Sept 10, 2006 4:39:22 GMT -6
^word.
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Post by I AM the Way on Sept 10, 2006 15:15:00 GMT -6
i accept the existence, or the possibility, of being killed by someone... but that doesn't mean i like it. if i was about to be knifed or shot by someone, then my saying, "that's not how it should be!" won't really do a god d@mn thing.
Mike, if we eschew a good/evil paradigm, then would you suggest acknowleging individual actions as master/slave morality based on the context?
VS www.CultofCthulhu.net
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zucca
Novitiate
Explorer of The Spirit..
Posts: 6
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Post by zucca on Oct 3, 2006 13:44:19 GMT -6
Evil is all that is not like i want it to be (i'm not sure if this expression is correct,forgive me,i'm italian)
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 3, 2006 15:33:25 GMT -6
i think that a person can have varying definitions of evil.
some see evil as everything they don't like, and good as everything they do like. however, most see evil and good as static concepts.
the Cult of Cthulhu uses the word "evil" as an emerald green fire in the void - normally we are filled with nothingness. evil fuels us, gives us strength and energy. we revel in change, the suffering of others, and untold pleasures.
VS
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Post by iandiabhal on Oct 3, 2006 15:40:31 GMT -6
First off let us define what we mean by "evil" if indeed it "exists" as it does not entail just one definition.
The simplest definition is: morally reprehensible
The larger Christian definition for example is thus: "Evil, in a large sense, may be described as the sum of the opposition, which experience shows to exist in the universe, to the desires and needs of individuals; whence arises, among humans beings at least, the sufferings in which life abounds. Thus evil, from the point of view of human welfare, is what ought not to exist. Nevertheless, there is no department of human life in which its presence is not felt; and the discrepancy between what is and what ought to be has always called for explanation in the account which mankind has sought to give of itself and its surroundings."
Ian> They then go on to state there are three types of evil:
Physical Moral Metaphysical
Physical evil includes all that causes harm to man, whether by bodily injury, by thwarting his natural desires, or by preventing the full development of his powers, either in the order of nature directly, or through the various social conditions under which mankind naturally exists.
Moral evil is the deviation of human volition from the prescriptions of the moral order and the action which results from that deviation.
Metaphysical evil is the limitation by one another of various component parts of the natural world. Through this mutual limitation natural objects are for the most part prevented from attaining to their full or ideal perfection, whether by the constant pressure of physical condition, or by sudden catastrophes.
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Post by ichor on Oct 5, 2006 12:09:50 GMT -6
jesus harold christ,man!! did you get your tenure at Miskatonic U?
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Post by Yevathik on Oct 5, 2006 17:03:26 GMT -6
jesus harold christ,man!! did you get your tenure at Miskatonic U? Life expectancy: One semester.
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Post by thehereticsaint13 on Nov 14, 2006 0:11:03 GMT -6
I've always simply thought of good and evil, rather like...sayyyy...a number line. Here is neutral, nothingness, NIL, NIHIL, whatever. GONE...nothing. And then you have varying levels of good ranging from NIL to INFINITY, and then varying levels of evil ranging from NIL to INFINITY, and there you have it. Then from there, Each level of Good and Evil has it's it's own level's with their own ranges going from NIL to INFINITY, and so on, and so forth, et cetera, ad nauseum *LOL* An INFINITE number of possibilities among an INFINITE number of choices...There is always something even more pure, and something ever so much more evil...
The light IS strong...but the dark is so much more than you could ever, and I mean EVER fathom. That's why I love this concept, and you can see it in practice easily...if you know where to look. But there is much that goes on in the dark...the light is powerful, but the dark kicks-ever-loving-muthafucking-ass...bloody, vicious, unrelenting, unstoppable. It serve's one, ONE, purpose...and that is...WHATEVER the FUCK IT wants. THAT is my definition of EVIL. THAT is what lurks in the darkest places that men fear to tread. THAT is why men COWER in the light for protection... THAT is why the DARK fears nothing...allows NO excuses...nor CARES for the INEPT, the WEAK, and the FOOLISH. THAT...is EVIL.
What do you all think of this?
The Heretic XIII
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Post by jameson on Nov 26, 2006 19:47:12 GMT -6
I stopped viewing good and evil a while ago and found only pure and tainted.Pure then for me is desire born only of my will when tainted is imposed upon me.I can argue good is following my desires and evil is when to some degree I am ignorant of my desire or have no choice.However I feel the very words of evil and good have worn out thier welcome especially in Satanism due to the fact that both are viewpoints which I find tainted or imposed upon us.
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Nov 26, 2006 20:49:56 GMT -6
First off let us define what we mean by "evil" if indeed it "exists" as it does not entail just one definition. Evil can also be seing socalled evil being done and doing nothing to stop it. shail
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wychipu
Novitiate
She who listens as tho she's always heard
Posts: 14
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Post by wychipu on Nov 29, 2006 17:46:37 GMT -6
Adventure Girl Rule #38: One man's animal sacrifice is another man's BBQ.
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Post by youma on Dec 9, 2006 11:33:20 GMT -6
Pretty much everyone seems to agree that evil is relative.
I think it matters not to define the whole concept of evil, not in a world of situations where shades of gray are still a too rigid frame (dunno, maybe 24 bits color would help) and new things happen all the time. It is important to mind some form of morality to decide of our own behavior, but this can not be a rigid frame, for it would lead to more harm than amorality could possibly bring.
As to the place of evil in culture, I wrote an article on that which was published a few months ago in the local art paper (I'm certainly the first who managed to publish an article titled "Hail Satan!" in a paper who'se readership averages 65 years old...) I might translate it if people are interested, it was about the artistic symbolism of evil and its interpretation, and also an attempt to make those of a more conservative age understand Gothics, punks and other subculture members as not idiots nor baby eaters. It defined artistic evil as an expression of rejection of society's values, not necessarly meaning an absence of values.
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Post by m2alik on Dec 18, 2006 22:08:19 GMT -6
;D My definition of evil is : anything that tries to program me. As of evil here is my list: goverment that is corrupted peer pressure don't think don't reason don't question anything of not my choice My degree of ethics is the satanic Rules of The Earth. I would gladly be patriotic if they actually followed The constitution. I won't say how this goverment is now but it isn't what it was founded on.
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