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Post by shawnhartnell on Oct 18, 2012 21:10:19 GMT -6
I'm trying to find a blog post titled something like "In Time and Through Time" that I didn't quite understand when I read it. I can't find it. Does anyone know where it is? Thanks.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Oct 24, 2012 20:24:02 GMT -6
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 25, 2012 15:08:10 GMT -6
A Distinction Without a Difference?
This essay is on the differences and similarities between being in the moment and being outside the moment. The idea came to me when thinking about comparisons between The Power of Now and various Fourth Way books. It is my contention that standard books on mindfulness only go so far… being present in the moment. Conversely, 4th Way Masters give instruction on being present outside the moment. By the end of “A Distinction Without a Difference?” you will perceive my understanding of the subject.
Over a week ago, I asked Cultists and CoC forum members to compare and contrast being in the moment versus being outside the moment. It was my hope that contemplation on such a topic would provide fascinating results.
It did. Everyone who performed the exercise, thinking about those two states in relation to each other, and wrote me about it did their best to explain being in the moment. I believe contemplation alone is valuable, almost as significant as reaching a conclusion and verbalizing one’s answer… but not quite. So, everyone who emailed me… I’m imagining a bilious green tentacle caressing your cheek. While I’m glad these individuals took the time to put momentization into their own words, disappointingly, the question at hand remained unanswered. Is there a difference between being in the moment and being outside the moment?
The fact that the contrast was unilaterally glossed over makes me think this topic is even more crucial than I first believed. From my experience, our universe (U:A) throws up obstacles all the time – ways of diverting our attention from what’s really important. These obstacles come in a variety of forms. Opposing forces are usually direct and easy to see. Blind spots, on the other hand, are less noticeable. I’m sure everyone exploring the differences between those two states believed they were answering the question. Most likely because they assumed it was a distinction without a difference. The problem seemed to dissolve into a simpler form before our very eyes. Perception changed because of universal forces which led to a change in reality. The Octave was interrupted. Nothing extraordinary was created.
The following answer is based on my uncanny ability to turn a subject over and over in my mind until I can clearly visualize both the problem and its solution. Some will agree, others won’t. That’s just the way of the world. Here’s the essence: outside is more fruitful than inside. Let me explain my thinking.
Being in the moment allows us little freedom. A moment is finite which means there is limited room to move about and navigate… almost as if we were trapped within that moment. Being in the moment allows us to experience the richness but without that much needed multi-dimensional perspective. It is subjective consciousness. However, from the standpoint that being in the moment lets us be present it is most definitely beneficial. The ordinary alternative to being in the moment is not being outside the moment but being unaware… blind to the moment.
Being outside the moment is a cut above. It is ultra-momentization. Outside the moment affords us infinite space. That space is freedom, power, the path to Godhood. It is objective consciousness. This state is also being present but at a later, more advanced stage. A Man #4 (someone who is serious but new to The Work) should strive to be in the moment when he can. Man #5 (someone who is well-versed in The Work, putting it at the forefront of his life) must continually seek to be outside the moment. Yes, I wish we could all just be outside the moment from the start, but that is not possible. We have to crawl before we may walk.
To illustrate the contrast in another way, let us look at The Matrix. Neo is plugged-in at the beginning of the film, he is convinced the illusory world is real. At this point, Neo is effectively blind to the moment or any of the substantive concepts going on around him.
Later on, when Neo is fired upon by agents of the matrix (U:A), the protagonist is aware of things… especially the danger he’s in. Neo is present in the moment. Unfortunately, this provides him little protection from bullets.
Only at the end of the film is Neo present outside the moment, allowing him to stop agent bullets in mid-air. This state yields the most control. He is liberated from the illusory world and able to manipulate it as his will dictates.
Such are the vast differences between these three distinct states. A new triad for us to contemplate! In whatever myriad ways you approach each moment, here and now, I hope access is granted to the tentacled, slimy Demon-Gods of His emerald kingdom.
Awake!
Venger As’Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
From here: cthulhu-cult.com/?p=281
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Post by shawnhartnell on Nov 2, 2012 21:38:28 GMT -6
This is something I've been working on for a bit now. And this is where I'm at.
Being in the moment is like a vibrant, vital form of existence in an eternal moment. The moment is vibrant but, it's all that exists sometimes. In this perspective there is only one cigarette, the one being smoked at the moment.
Being out of the moment loses some of it's vibrancy, but there's a larger chunk of time to work with. It's the world of to-do lists and plans and it's quite like perceiving time as a map with a dot marked "you are here". In this perspective, a single cigarette in the present is all the cigarettes one has smoked in the past and all the ones one will smoke in the future. So it's a perspective of accumulated effects and while in it I find myself evaluating things in their accumulated effect over time.
So, one is like being in the forest, and one is like being above the forest knowing your position in it.
Being out of the moment doesn't come naturally to me and it's not a state I can 'hold' for very long so I've been using it mostly for planning, evaluation, decision making, and reflection. I still do make decisions in the moment but I'm beginning to trust them less and less.
Any tips for ways to get into the out of moment state and hold it are appreciated. Thanks.
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Post by sin on Nov 2, 2012 22:34:00 GMT -6
Interesting.
For me, I'd say when I feel the sense of being in the moment arise, I have to step outside of myself. In this state, I can see myself following the same patterns of behavior I'm trying to change. It prevents me from being caught-up in the moment.
Will I back-slide? On occasion, there are just some things that are built into my being, nurtured over years and years of experience and attachment.
Contextual example:
I've been called anal retentive about house-cleaning and order. I admit this, I can be. If my aim is to keep order and a clean house, well I certainly accomplish that. It doesn't mean everyone living in the house can live up to my standards and expectations.
Little things annoy me, things that seem trivial to others. It could be a couch cushion out of place or disheveled. Not a big deal right? To me it is. My impulses to fix it immediately, can be annoying to others and a source of frustration for them. This can affect me, as I have to keep both my house in order (as I see fit) and not be a pain in the ass to the people living with me.
Q: Why does it annoy me? A: I grew up around slobs, dirty things disgust me, I had to work twice as hard to keep a living space clean and comfortable for myself.
Q: Where does all this anal retentive house cleaning come from? A: Habits. I don't want to live in an unkempt house, with slobbery, with filth, so to avoid it I would nurture habits to work smarter not harder.
Q: Why do I react the way I do, when others do not conform to my standards?
A: I'm attached. I'm remembering. I'm imagining. I'm creating my own suffering.
Some things are just reasonable and 'lived in', so when I can see myself getting all 'House Hitler', I see myself before I do it. Then let go of it, otherwise I'll be in the moment and policing the house for little trivial things.
If you interviewed my son, he'd just tell you I love to clean. It's my thing. He's happy to make small messes because he thinks I enjoy cleaning it as his 'Mom'.
If you interviewed my boyfriend, he'd most likely say, It's never clean enough. I do my best, but she's right behind me to clean it to her standard. I also can't see worth shit, even with my glasses on. I know I leave 'trace evidence'.
If you interviewed me, I'd just say... I try to be outside the moment as much as I can, but I like a clean house
CS
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Post by sin on Nov 2, 2012 22:37:54 GMT -6
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Post by shawnhartnell on Nov 3, 2012 17:47:30 GMT -6
If you were a manager, what would you think about someone who was late more often than not?
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Post by sin on Nov 4, 2012 7:29:46 GMT -6
If you were a manager, what would you think about someone who was late more often than not? I've been in management, what would I think of it? I'd think there must be a reason for it.
My personal assistant was always late, because she had to drop her infant off at daycare before coming to work, and had to wait until they opened. I gave her the leeway to accommodate her because I valued her as my assistant.
I had a team of secretaries, some were just late because they couldn't roll out of bed on time. The company I worked for also sent me to a battery of seminars for dealing with sales reps and employees. It helped with managing people under you, and fostering good relationships so they do the best quality work they are capable of. The turn-over rate was low. Sales reps can be hard to deal with because they are independent contractors.
I'd approach the employee about being on time, find out why they are consistently late, and advise them that being on time is important to the entire team. Dependability, responsibility, and accountability.
It's better to manage, than to dictate.
CS
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Post by shawnhartnell on Nov 4, 2012 8:19:40 GMT -6
I think I asked the wrong question. Instead of asking what you thought about someone who was late, I should have asked what you thought about someone being late.
But, you answered my question anyway, thanks.
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 4, 2012 8:44:43 GMT -6
This is something I've been working on for a bit now. And this is where I'm at.
Being in the moment is like a vibrant, vital form of existence in an eternal moment. The moment is vibrant but, it's all that exists sometimes. In this perspective there is only one cigarette, the one being smoked at the moment.
Being out of the moment loses some of it's vibrancy, but there's a larger chunk of time to work with. It's the world of to-do lists and plans and it's quite like perceiving time as a map with a dot marked "you are here". In this perspective, a single cigarette in the present is all the cigarettes one has smoked in the past and all the ones one will smoke in the future. So it's a perspective of accumulated effects and while in it I find myself evaluating things in their accumulated effect over time.
So, one is like being in the forest, and one is like being above the forest knowing your position in it.
Being out of the moment doesn't come naturally to me and it's not a state I can 'hold' for very long so I've been using it mostly for planning, evaluation, decision making, and reflection. I still do make decisions in the moment but I'm beginning to trust them less and less.
Any tips for ways to get into the out of moment state and hold it are appreciated. Thanks. Among the trees, within the forest, and above it all. Perhaps this is a three step process. First, recognize the moment itself and be aware of that, then the moment in its proper context - next to all those similar past and future moments. Finally, sense the moment completely outside of it, as if it's happening to someone else. Some of the vibrancy may be lost, but that shouldn't discourage us from being alien to present moment.
Your example sticks to the mind very easily because of its addictive nature; cigarette smoking leaves a distinct temporal trail. If one is smoking, that person has undoubtedly done it before (unless it's his first, of course) and will most likely continue to smoke. Yes, we can see the timeline and apply your example to those nebulous aspects of life which we can only perceive with difficulty.
I'm going to dig out that CoCsn blog post about being in and outside of the present moment...
Awake!
VS
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Post by sin on Nov 4, 2012 8:46:28 GMT -6
Oh! Being in the moment of?
Well, I answered it somehow, lol.
CS
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Post by sin on Nov 4, 2012 8:59:29 GMT -6
In Shawns 'holding' problem (using the same analogy), would it be helpful to see himself not smoking, before he lights up?
CS
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 4, 2012 9:31:40 GMT -6
Wow, after a half hour of searching, I finally stumbled upon the fact that the post Shawn was talking about and linked to, which I copied and pasted here in this very thread... is the one I've been trying to find! Jesus tentacled Christ!!!
If he wants to quit, yes. If anyone of us want to modify our behavior, then we have work to do - because that shit is hard, especially when our behavior is reinforced by psychological or physical addiction. How can we begin to make changes if we fail to see the bigger picture?
Regarding CS and housecleaning, I think there's an additional impediment to changing this particular behavior (not that you'd necessarily want to) - genetic hardwiring. Just like most guys like looking at boobs, most girls (at least the ones I know) must have a certain level of cleanliness/order in their abode. From personal experience, I've learned that my mother, wife, as well as, previous female and girlfriends have to have their living space up to their personal standards or else it's just not right.
Interestingly, from what I've gathered about college-age women (I've been renting apartments to them for years), this gender-specific genetic predisposition seems to activate upon full maturity. In other words, college co-eds are usually messy and are fine with it. Upon entering mid to late 20's, I'm suggesting that a neat freak switch is flipped in most women. Keep in mind, all this is based on my experience. Nothing is scientifically proven. However, if anyone has an opinion based on a study or anecdotal evidence, then feel free to share it.
Awake!
VS
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Post by shawnhartnell on Nov 4, 2012 9:37:02 GMT -6
How can we begin to make changes if we fail to see the bigger picture?
VS
One can always make changes, but what I'm learning is that one can only make changes within the frame of one's picture, the bigger frame the better.
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Post by sin on Nov 4, 2012 9:52:30 GMT -6
I agree, we do have to work at it. I think it's when we don't get immediate results, that we back slide because it's easier. The struggle, in the moment, is the main issue to focus on. Is it pure Will or something else? The Will is being managed by impulses and desires. One side wants to smoke, the rational mind is trying to remember you are trying to quit. Then there's the physical 'addiction' to overcome. I know some people claim it's the nicotine. For me, it was the habit.
[/b] [/color][/quote]
A note on maturity. I lived with two of my aunts when I was a kid. When they were children, they kept their rooms neat as a pin (at my grandmother's command) but once they got out on their own, they were complete slobs. Not just slobbery, filth too. Even when their husbands would complain (they were housewives) they didn't seem to make any effort. They are home all day taking care of small children, so they would use it as an excuse to not clean up, feeling overwhelmed.
The male children, my father and uncle, kept their homes very neat and clean. They were even better cooks than the women were. Both men were in the military (Army), so I tend to think that it's a combination of good habits nurtured by their mother, and military discipline.
I did note that when I was in High School, almost all my female friends kept messy bedrooms with their mother's commanding that they clean them. The male children kept neat and organized rooms.
"Chores" were always a struggle with their parents too (females), not sure why. Seemed like simple things to help around the house with. The boy children never had an issue, but the females would procrastinate or just blow it off.
So I dunno if it's just maturity per say, maybe part of it is rebellion?
I've also heard the argument that tending the home is built into our genetics as a species. Men hunt, women clean and take care of kids.
Much like your working out regime, we can overcome our genetics! ha!
Gender roles and all that jazz. Women are typically regarded in specific roles. Care-givers, baby factories, and for a man's pleasure. It's had an impact on modern societies. Women have always been pushed into those roles, for the most part. It wasn't so long ago that there was a women's liberation movement. I'm no feminist, but I can see how it would be a problem for some women. I've never had an issue with finding my place anywhere. I make a place. Not to say, I'm not faced with gender role issues, they are projected at me all the time. Some women do it to themselves then complain about being objectified and oppressed.
I went to midget wrestling the other night, and there was a fascinating element of the 'entertainment'. The ref made an announcement that they needed 4 female volunteers. So 4 women anxiously got into the ring. It was revealed that they had to dance with the ref, to make his cock rise. 2 women immediately opted out, while 2 stayed behind to compete for the title. They got 2 replacements, but after watching the other 2 girls, one opted out immediately. Either she wasn't willing to compete with what she saw, or she wasn't willing to go to the level that the other women were.
CS[/color]
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Post by thorgrim on Nov 4, 2012 13:38:52 GMT -6
Liber Jugorum works great for smoking, and well just about any kind of behavior modification!!!
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 5, 2012 11:46:33 GMT -6
How can we begin to make changes if we fail to see the bigger picture?
VS
One can always make changes, but what I'm learning is that one can only make changes within the frame of one's picture, the bigger frame the better. That's true. However, if a frame is too big, then the smallest details can be lost.
VS
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