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Post by Cain Da'arnesh on Aug 16, 2012 14:11:21 GMT -6
Now many people I've discussed this with claim that fourth way teachers like Gurdjeff and Ouspensky were really just charlatans out to make money... I've thought about this long and hard and have come to realize something. The question is, are they in fact charlatans? However, a more important question is, does it really make a difference? Look, as fourth way teachers, they were surely aware that we all wear masks for different situations. Like everyone else, there was surely more than one person in there you dig? And even more important than that, if it in fact helped someone reach a new spiritual level, is the true nature of their intent really important?
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Post by sin on Aug 17, 2012 12:42:47 GMT -6
How important is this really? Are you paying Gurdjieff? Being robbed of your money? Do dead men still get paid their due?
Comparably, Venger is also called a charlatan. I am also called a charlatan.
Are we charlatans? Why pay us lip-service if we are?
CS
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Post by Cain Da'arnesh on Aug 18, 2012 0:36:26 GMT -6
You and Venger Cora? Highly unlikely! But what I'm saying is, that the true nature of their intent isn't important when you consider the groundbreaking spiritual insight they offer! That's all I'm trying to say here...
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Kai'Sigth
Novitiate
Dreaming Herald of the Old Gods
Posts: 10
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Post by Kai'Sigth on Aug 18, 2012 6:18:28 GMT -6
Many people accuse Anton LaVey of the same thing. They often bring up the fact that much of the life he talked about living was nothing but a fabrication.
I for one don't care. What LaVey did was open a door into the occult and left hand path that many would not have found without him.
Same goes for Ouspensky and Gurdjieff. They presented us with a solid spiritual philosophy and method of self-mastery.
When the stars are right!
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Post by sin on Aug 18, 2012 15:53:31 GMT -6
You and Venger Cora? Highly unlikely! But what I'm saying is, that the true nature of their intent isn't important when you consider the groundbreaking spiritual insight they offer! That's all I'm trying to say here...
I'm sure I understand.
When the stars are right...
CS
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Post by Cain Da'arnesh on Aug 20, 2012 23:18:58 GMT -6
Now ya got me! Doesn't matter! In fact, I think Gurdjeff himself said specifically, "Pay attention to the message! Not who's saying it..." (Paraphrased as I don't recall the precise quote...)
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Post by sin on Aug 21, 2012 15:10:44 GMT -6
Now many people I've discussed this with claim that fourth way teachers like Gurdjeff and Ouspensky were really just charlatans out to make money... I've thought about this long and hard and have come to realize something. The question is, are they in fact charlatans? However, a more important question is, does it really make a difference? Look, as fourth way teachers, they were surely aware that we all wear masks for different situations. Like everyone else, there was surely more than one person in there you dig? And even more important than that, if it in fact helped someone reach a new spiritual level, is the true nature of their intent really important? Does it make a difference? Well, yeah...
A charlatan, by definition, is a fraud. What are the chances of a fraud Awakening an individual or group of individuals? If we understand Awakening as an achievement of higher consciousness, then it should be obvious that such a thing does not come accidentally. A Influences do not mysteriously become C Influences out of luck or the benevolence of lesser gods. Knowledge flows from the top down, not the bottom up.
The true nature of their intent is really important. Great results such as what we're talking about here - Awakening - can only be supported by equally great intentions. Therefore, the most important question is, in fact, are Gurdjieff and Ouspensky charlatans? To those interested in esotericism, my answer is "No."
Now, if we're talking about the discrepancy between man and message, then that's a different topic. No vessel of higher knowledge is objectively perfect. All men have their faults, although who is to say these imperfections are not entirely subjective? I would think the actions of conscious men must have both personal and impersonal motivations. To put it in a contemporary context, President Obama not only wants to defeat Romney for his own benefit, but also to secure a prosperous future for America.
Awake!
VS
Exalt!
CS
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Post by Cain Da'arnesh on Sept 4, 2012 22:39:22 GMT -6
Hmm never thought about it that way Master Venger? Well like I've said before, "You can't argue with success!" And if the stories are true, I'd say they were successful and not charlatans... Thank you for the clarification sir!
PS Exalt!
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Post by satanicshaman on Sept 15, 2012 15:44:22 GMT -6
I think O always had the idea of G possibly having nefarious intentions. There is a book about their arguments and falling out. If G was indeed a master of disguise and guile it is odd he would write a book basically claiming such. Try as we may, by reading, personality charts, remembering ourselves, it is the movements that brings the blood to a boil so to speak.
First response here. Test test test
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Post by satanicshaman on Sept 15, 2012 15:49:23 GMT -6
You and Venger Cora? Highly unlikely! But what I'm saying is, that the true nature of their intent isn't important when you consider the groundbreaking spiritual insight they offer! That's all I'm trying to say here... Personally, I've never experienced a more complete user friendly (to a point, hehe) package. Well said Cain.
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Post by I AM the Way on Sept 16, 2012 7:03:21 GMT -6
Thanks for joining us, satanicshaman. Which book? Are you referring to In Search of P. D. Ouspensky: The Genius in the Shadow of Gurdjieff by Gary Lachman? If so, I read it a few years ago.
The book discusses their falling out, but the matter is still rather mysterious. Did G purposefully drive O away so that O could become a 4th Way Master, teaching thousands more on another continent and in his own manner? Does that mean G was somehow holding O back or overshadowing him with the extraordinary weight of G's personality and will? Or did G want to send O away so the English speaking world would be prepared for his arrival? Perhaps they saw the Work in slightly (greatly?) different ways... The author isn't quite sure, so neither are we, unfortunately.
At one time, G wrote (as well as told O) that he decided to use the Work for selfless pursuits which would benefit humanity instead of only benefiting himself. I believe him. A totally selfish approach to the Work can only get a student so far. Those who are too self-absorbed, egotistical, and self-loving cannot reach Man #5. They can get extremely close, but that last obstacle is far too great.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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