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Post by pseudosherlock on May 24, 2011 12:25:55 GMT -6
I have almost finished "The Fourth Way" by P. D. Ouspensky and I have a confusion that I'm hoping someone can clear up or explain for me.
It seems to me, so far, from reading about the Fourth Way that even Ouspensky himself isn't very clear on the purpose of the aim of consciousness. He even describes one of the drives toward consciousness is a mechanical fear to escape mechanicalness, or a mechanical desire to be less mechanical.
Now, in his own language, how can something mechanical with its limited scope drive someone toward something conscious? I would understand if he described an unknown variable that lives in consciousness (even a God of some sort) that drives people to become more conscious.
But it just seems to me that, given his description of a person, there is nothing and no aim that is not mechanical. Therefore, what is the purpose of striving toward being conscious if you're doing it from a mechanical drive that, again in his own language, can only create more mechanicalness?
Any thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 15:08:58 GMT -6
Good question !
We have the potential to awake. Awakening may result of a particular situation or state of mind, and this situation may very well be obtain by luck or by a mechanical process. Until then, mechanical create mechanicalness, but, if sincere efforts are done, at one point, it can change...
In my case to begin to awake it took me many years of (mechanical) researches and a big shock.
Remember yourself, for the emerald kingdom is at hand !
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Post by I AM the Way on May 24, 2011 21:28:50 GMT -6
I have almost finished "The Fourth Way" by P. D. Ouspensky and I have a confusion that I'm hoping someone can clear up or explain for me. It seems to me, so far, from reading about the Fourth Way that even Ouspensky himself isn't very clear on the purpose of the aim of consciousness. He even describes one of the drives toward consciousness is a mechanical fear to escape mechanicalness, or a mechanical desire to be less mechanical. Now, in his own language, how can something mechanical with its limited scope drive someone toward something conscious? I would understand if he described an unknown variable that lives in consciousness (even a God of some sort) that drives people to become more conscious. But it just seems to me that, given his description of a person, there is nothing and no aim that is not mechanical. Therefore, what is the purpose of striving toward being conscious if you're doing it from a mechanical drive that, again in his own language, can only create more mechanicalness? Any thoughts? I'm glad that you're thinking about such issues.
Ouspensky, in my view, didn't want to put the cart before the horse. I mean that he didn't want to obscure the journey with expectant rewards dripping with purple prose (ours ooze emerald). He was more of a philosopher and pragmatist rather than flamboyant visionary such as Gurdjieff. Ouspensky is useful because his explanation of The Work comes to us free of subjective detritus. To put it another way - Ouspensky's teaching is the most pure and, ironically, rather mechanical in approach.
Ouspensky didn't try to use his higher states of Consciousness for any purpose other than teaching The Work. That is one of the greatest displays of self-sacrifice.
However, it is in keeping with my essence that I use the Conscious energy generated to create tremendous, sustaining force manifesting an entirely new reality... one involving the Great Old Ones. That is my path. Every Fourth Way Master is unique. Enjoy each of them for their individual fruits. May I suggest Maurice Nicoll or Girard Haven? If you didn't quite resonate with Ouspensky or Gurdjieff, then you still have options. I am yet another 4th Way avenue, and there are several Cultists here on their way to Mastering the system.
Please, let us continue this discussion. Everyone with questions or just something to say... say it.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by dudetyson on May 24, 2011 23:06:05 GMT -6
He even describes one of the drives toward consciousness is a mechanical fear to escape mechanicalness, or a mechanical desire to be less mechanical. Now, in his own language, how can something mechanical with its limited scope drive someone toward something conscious? My own thoughts have been on this kind of thing a lot. Economic changes can cause drastic shifts in the way people think about many, many things. Now, that's a mechanical reaction -- people are basically just saying "I want food to live, and why is not important!" but the crisis of their livelihood being threatened gets them thinking outside the box. This recession has been the greatest recruiting opportunity for radicals since 1968 and 1929. How can something mechanical drive toward consciousness? Well, why not? A mechanical process is not really concerned with its results. It just follows its own mechanical logic. If that accidentally results in consciousness, the process does not care. cultofcthulhu.wall.fm/blogs/170
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Post by pseudosherlock on May 25, 2011 0:59:53 GMT -6
Oh, I fully agree with that. And I realize that some of my confusion may come from a snap judgement of my first read through. I also like to read different view points and then go back to original ones to see how the different filters or lenses purify or clarify things for me.
I actually am a firm believer in the Law of Attraction, and see some of that in Ouspensky's Fourth Way. I'm looking forward to reading some of that next to compare, and then maybe both will make more sense to me. As I believe Ouspensky himself said (in that book) that studying one thing will help you understand another.
Yeah, I saw that. He immediately would stray away from anything that got too concrete or promising. His knee-jerk answer (opps, am I also suggesting he was mechanical?) was to say: "Oh, we can't really understand what it would be like to be conscious" or "That's too vague, you'll have to either give me more specific examples or go experience it yourself to find out." But, 7/8ths through the book no one ever really seems to give him concrete examples for him to give concrete responses to.
Except for the one or two thrown out stories or anecdotes he has, which I actually really like.
Though the thought I just had was that The Fourth Way book might have actually been better had he had a more conscious audience to ask more interesting and probing questions. I often find myself trying not to roll my eyes at some of their questions. As, by now, I could answer many of them in the same he would. But maybe that was the time period as now the idea of living an illusion is at least palatable for the average person who's seen the Matrix.
To be honest, I think our "Recession" was a few-month blip that people mechanically turned into a bigger issue to give themselves excuses to not work. I think it's been a giant buffer for Americans to say: "Eh, I'll just kick back on un-employment because NO ONE is hiring these days, what with the economy the way it is."
My own work has been continually hiring for the past year, or so, but they're having trouble finding people. And I think it's because people are convinced there aren't jobs, so they aren't even bothering to look.
But whatever. Not the point.
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Post by pseudosherlock on May 25, 2011 1:08:31 GMT -6
I think my biggest confusion with the whole thing (which this thread-confusion leads into) is what the point of being conscious is. And it may be, as Venger suggested, that my trouble is that I'm reading a guy who refuses to glorify it or offer possible results to an audience that isn't ready for them.
Though I do feel in some ways that Ouspensky is striving toward consciousness in a very mechanical way. Basically being conscious for the sake of consciousness, or doing it cause he can.
But I find myself wondering, if consciousness is the aim and mechanicalness is to be avoided, what is really left over when you get rid of all mechanical pursuits and thoughts? What does a conscious man do with the extra time he's bought himself every day?
I had this same issue with Taoism. It seemed that the goal was to become so above reality and the physical world that you completely stop doing anything. And at that point you'll develop all sorts of powers and abilities, but only because by then you don't want to use them and see no reason to disrupt even the path of an ant. It seemed to me that the Taoist immortals only floated around occasionally assisting people who were high enough to come looking for them.
Obviously if we all did that the physical world would dissipate. Perhaps that's a goal? Especially if it is seen as a prison.
I'm coming to this confusion/conclusion as I search myself for mechanical drives and find even sex is driven by mechanical urges and imaginative lattice work. So if people slowly stopped that, that's it for people.
Perhaps I'm just throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
(Yes, I wish I didn't have a cliche to sum this up.)
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Post by I AM the Way on May 25, 2011 14:04:45 GMT -6
I think you meant methodical. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that might be a better way of describing Ouspensky's striving towards Consciousness.
As long as one is convinced of its value, I don't have a problem with those seeking to become Conscious for Consciousness' sake.
Purity. Pure like the void. Nothingness except one's soul.
Whatever he wants. That might sound humorous, but I'm completely serious. An Awakened man can do virtually anything he chooses... because he can choose. That's the point. Being Awake gives us the power of choice.
Deep down, underneath all your mechanicalness is not only a seed which may one night become a soul, but also your True Will. This is your ultimate purpose and it can be as multi-dimensional as you wish.
What do you want more than anything? That, whatever the answer is, should be your aim. Your aim drives you towards Awakening. For Ouspensky, it was simply escaping from prison into a more Conscious state while teaching The Work to others. For me, it's bringing the Old Ones back to re-shape the earth so that Cthulhu Cultists will become Gods.
It might take you a few years to clearly envision your own True Will, but it's there... somewhere.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by pseudosherlock on May 25, 2011 23:27:37 GMT -6
While that might not have been what I thought I meant, it might be a more apt description.
I guess I'm not seeing fully its value, at least through the eyes of Ouspensky and the Fourth Way. Versions of it that I already understood I see, just not in the same fashion as how its described by him.
It make sense. I guess a better question of mine would be: What would he want to do? What would be left to desire? Ouspensky mentioned desire in the book and suggested that there were desires that didn't have to be mechanic, but without an example I felt unfulfilled with the perspective.
I think my biggest concern and my biggest fear in what the Fourth Way suggests about consciousness, personally, is that my own artistic pursuits (writing) might be mechanical. He mentions artistic creation as at the same level as conscious thought and explained that it entailed using all the centers to create.
Yet I'm having a very hard time separating "imagination" from artistic creation. My drive toward writing has always included my imagination, which I've always prized. Yet reading the Fourth Way I can see this as a byproduct of false personality and an escape from consciousness. However, he still totes art as important.
So perhaps my understanding, or my previous level, of artistic creation is not conscious. If so, I'd feel better about it. Because I've always felt that if everything I knew or did was stripped away I'd still have art and fiction (imagination?). And if that is merely mechanical imagination, it again begs the question (for me): What is there left to do during the day if everything else falls away.
Yes, my main confusions and concerns are completely personal, and perhaps not as helpful to everyone here. But otherwise, I'd just end up being another one of Ouspensky's students asking something vague like: "Are there things that someone can do to strive toward that aren't mechanical?"
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