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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 6, 2011 7:50:17 GMT -6
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Mar 6, 2011 13:01:56 GMT -6
The ideas presented in this Sunday Sermon are what we will be discussing this evening in the Live Chat.
Just to kick off the discussion, I think it's important to note that Ouspensky and Nicoll didn't agree with Gurdjieff on the idea that as long as you are expressing the negative emotion with a calm internal consciousness, and it's in alignment with your aims, it's "OK" to express it. I haven't studied much of Nicoll, yet, but Ouspensky taught that all expression of negative emotion was counter-productive to awakening.
I think it's also important to discuss how most sleepers relate to the idea that they are mostly the driver in the scenario of the cart & horse when in reality, they are more accurately represented by the horse. They know little more than "right" and "left," yet live in the delusion that they make all of the decisions consciously.
Awake!
Apsara Kamalli Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 6, 2011 15:28:41 GMT -6
Your blog post strikes me as the Fourth Way seen from a Modern Satanism lens. There are a few assumptions that I don't agree with, but I'd like to give other voices a chance to be heard before posting my critique. Perhaps we'll get into that tonight during the CoC forum live chat scheduled for 8:30 - 9:30pm central standard time?
Have you shown this to anyone in the 4th Way school you're participating in, Jason? I'd be interested to know what those instructors think of it.
What's your view, Apsara Kamalli?
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 6, 2011 17:22:17 GMT -6
Your blog post strikes me as the Fourth Way seen from a Modern Satanism lens. There are a few assumptions that I don't agree with, but I'd like to give other voices a chance to be heard before posting my critique. Perhaps we'll get into that tonight during the CoC forum live chat scheduled for 8:30 - 9:30pm central standard time?
Have you shown this to anyone in the 4th Way school you're participating in, Jason? I'd be interested to know what those instructors think of it.
What's your view, Apsara Kamalli?
My perspective is definitely from an Individualistic lens, but as we are discussing Consideration, both what the Individual experiences internally, as well as what the Individual expresses externally... well, you can see that Individualism is a key aspect to what I am presenting and what Gurdjieff is discussing. As Gurdjieff points out, there are situations in which it is necessary to express anger, aggression, and other emotions that would be considered "negative", and you of your own recent posts suggests that there is a positive and negative way to express any emotion. The key is to remain calm, or Objective Internally, and only to express what is necessary to achieve your Aim externally. Ultimately, only the Individual can determine for themselves if they are avoiding Internal Consideration while doing what must be done to achieve their Aims with External Consideration. A person observing another cannot know what is going on. This is why so much of the Work focuses on the self; you must be willing to be extremely honest and Objective about yourself in order to have any success. Real progress will come to those who develop that kind of Individual honesty. Those who lack it in themselves, and ask for concessions from others instead of forthrightness, will simply be stuck in a rut just building up the many layers of delusions allowing them to pretend that progress is being made. But, whatever it is they need to keep themselves sleep, I suppose. All any one of us can do is Work for ourselves, even when Working on the second line (mutual benefit) or the third line (development of the ideal). Ultimately, you pull your own weight and hope for the best... or not. I am not participating in a School, though the discussion group I am engaged in could lead to that when I am ready. There are no instructors in this discussion group, and those who are leading the discussion merely by starting the conversation and pointing the direction see themselves as no more advanced than the other participants, only maybe more experienced. What I am expressing in this blog are the very ideas that are being expressed in our group. Mundane life and the Work are separate. If you can Work to remain free of the influences of mundane life internally (not Identifying or Considering), then you are more capable of doing what you must to meet the demands of a mundane life externally (external considering). You don't go looking for a fight, but when you are convinced that your position is valid, you stick to your guns until you are convinced otherwise. I will probably be in observance during the live-chat this evening, depending on when I finish my last tattoo and what show-prep I have remaining for the Ooze at 11pm EST (10pm CST). I hope everyone participating comes with an open mind and a willingness to share their own thoughts.
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Mar 6, 2011 18:29:52 GMT -6
Perhaps we'll get into that tonight during the CoC forum live chat scheduled for 8:30 - 9:30pm central standard time?
Have you shown this to anyone in the 4th Way school you're participating in, Jason? I'd be interested to know what those instructors think of it.
What's your view, Apsara Kamalli?
Yes, I had planned on voicing my opinions on the live chat this evening, but I'm willing to give some of it here as you requested. It is my opinion that Jason is accurately representing the ideas we are discussing in our local chapter of the Gurdjieff Foundation. The members with 30+ years of experience verified and supported these ideas that Jason blogged about, as they typically do when he asks questions or discusses his viewpoint about his interpretations of Gurdjieff's Work. For myself, I can see the practical application of this when I yell at my youngest daughter to get her attention in a situation. It may sound like anger, but really, it's nothing more than providing a loud, verbal shock to heighten her awareness of her surroundings. Personally, I tend to agree with Ouspensky in that you should refrain from any expression of negative emotion. The slope is too slippery. If you make a conscious decision to engage someone with a display of what is interpreted as negative emotions, while remaining internally calm, even the most conscious individuals would have a difficult time remaining internally calm once responded to in kind. The opportunity for the situation escalating out of your control is too great, and in my opinion, should be avoided. I do want to reiterate that there is a difference between expressing negative emotions and remaining firm when in opposition to something. The two ideas are drastically different and should be respected as such. I hope this response suffices what you had asked, Lord Satanis, and I look forward to continuing this discussion in Live Chat this evening. Awake! Apsara Kamalli Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 6, 2011 18:52:05 GMT -6
Ok, I can see where you're coming from.
From what I've read, Gurdjieff found it necessary to act in a way which others took as negative as this became like a shock to their system.
As for achieving your aim externally... what's your opinion on Gurdjieff's view of black magicians: those who would use The Work for purely selfish, manipulative, and oppressive reasons? Is your idea of considering closer to helping humanity (the world), helping yourself, or both?
If the negative part of our emotional center can be controlled and utilized, then I caution the Fourth Way student from only relying on his objective detachment to reign him in. A slippery slope indeed. One might liken that to becoming lost to the dark side. As fun as that might sound, I believe it usually leads to self-destruction. Although, experimentation might prove useful to the adept.
To rock the boat purposefully in order to marvel at the chaos? For me, it is too much like Othello. I would not want to be Iago's amusement.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 6, 2011 23:57:04 GMT -6
Ok, I can see where you're coming from.
From what I've read, Gurdjieff found it necessary to act in a way which others took as negative as this became like a shock to their system.
As for achieving your aim externally... what's your opinion on Gurdjieff's view of black magicians: those who would use The Work for purely selfish, manipulative, and oppressive reasons? Is your idea of considering closer to helping humanity (the world), helping yourself, or both? What I have read about Gurdjieff's opinion of "black magicians" comes from his one or two near encounters he had with Aliester Crowley. Crowley referred to Gurdjieff as a "tip-top man", but Gurdjieff seems to not have had a high opinion of Crowely, if he had an opinion at all. Gurdjieff's opinion on "black magicians" was more than likely fair from his own perspective and philosophical system. I think Gurdjieff's opinion of those who would use the Work in a manner purely for self-gain, power over others, or to oppress is expressed in his warnings against false teachers. I think he also expresses that the same results come potentially from those who think they are teaching the Work correctly, but lack a true Understanding of what they are talking about. A false teacher does not have to know he or she is misguiding others... just not having experienced what is being taught and trying to teach it is as risky. When I think about External Consideration, I think about the 3 lines of Work. When deciding what role is best for expression when dealing with others, I think first about my own goals... goals which hopefully are leading to my personal development and benefit. The first line of Work is Work on/for myself. I am of little value to others if I am not first able to fend for myself. My goals should be of value to that end, thus those goals take the greatest priority, as I cannot ultimately be responsible for others. The second line of Work is Work with/for others. This may mean not only serving others, but how best to serve them. Some people need to be nurtured, and others need to be spurned. Sometimes gentle is best, and sometimes only being harsh will work. Some people can be served directly; acting in their behalf. Some lessons are harder to learn, and can only be learned through conflict. Some people require being broken down before they can be built back up. It is rarely for you to decide, rather the person you are interacting with will themselves tell you how best to deal with them. They will show you what they will respond to best. I think about the needs of the person I am dealing with. When the person I am dealing with and I are in agreement, then it is just a matter of acting in a way that is conducive to that continued harmony. If their expressed need opposes my own, then I must do what is necessary to overcome their opposition. I might be able to Work around their opposition, or they may insist on placing themselves directly in my path, requiring a response. Then, it is a matter of what response will best dissuade them from opposing me further... Is it best to shut them down? Can they be convinced that my position is better than theirs (or do they have the ability to convince me that their position is the better position)? Is it best to recognize that no discussion is beneficial and to evade them? Some opponents have value, while others are merely time-wasting fools. Finally, there is the third line of Work, working toward the Ideal, or Work for the Work Itself. Am I being a good example of that which I am convinced of? Am I living by what I express? Do I talk the talk and walk the walk? Is what I believe in served by the choices I am making? Is the effort resulting in something of lasting value? I think that these questions all pertain to the third line of Work. The 3 lines of Work are often three-in-one. In serving myself I may be serving the Work. Serving others may be for mutual benefit, or personal benefit in a manner that is not obvious. Serving the Work may be fulfilling to the needs of both others and myself. If there can be a short answer to your final question, if a person is Working right, then there is no distinction between helping humanity and helping yourself.
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 7, 2011 15:12:14 GMT -6
What about external considering as Fourth Way training? Doesn't a student of the Work need to struggle against himself, his natural inclinations, even what he assumes to be his essence or true self? I believe that behaving outwardly as those surrounding would have one behave can provide excellent material for making inner changes. Such activity also generates force for the second and third lines of Work. In fact, the atmosphere of an entire school can be super-charged by consistent focus on external considering.
It's my impression that "black magician" was used by the original Fourth Way Masters to describe any wise man with bad intentions. However, there are many who have called Gurdjieff himself a black magician. It's all relative. However, the nature of this Work protects itself from being correctly used by those who misunderstand. The core of our Cthulhu Cult won't allow itself to be effectively implemented by a "warring species", if I may use a phrase from The Land of the Lost 1970's tv show.
headhuntersholosuite.wikia.com/wiki/Mageti
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stranger_(Land_of_the_Lost)
In a way, the Mageti seems very much like a Lovecraftian invention able to locate dimensional doorways and travel through time and space. These things are B Influences since they contain wisdom handed down from Higher Forces and then converted into pop culture (or cult culture?) symbols.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 7, 2011 16:15:10 GMT -6
What about external considering as Fourth Way training? Doesn't a student of the Work need to struggle against himself, his natural inclinations, even what he assumes to be his essence or true self? I believe that behaving outwardly as those surrounding would have one behave can provide excellent material for making inner changes. Such activity also generates force for the second and third lines of Work. In fact, the atmosphere of an entire school can be super-charged by consistent focus on external considering.
The exercise you are describing is akin to an exercise used by the ONA and other spiritual/philosophical schools as well as the Work. Can the Individual maintain his consistent Internal Self while engaging in practices, concepts, or activities that he or she would normally avoid or even oppose? In the Work, such an exercise serves to high-light the distinction between Internal and External Consideration. You are right, the exercise provides data regarding potential inner changes that otherwise would take longer to uncover. It is, however, just an exercise. It is not meant to be how one lives their life or deals with every situation, and it is certainly not engaged in simply at the behest of another. The Individual decides if the exercise is of value, and engages in that exercise as they see fit (even if being encouraged or guided by another, the Individual still chooses to follow or comply with that guidance). Ultimately, the Individual decides if conforming to their surroundings and the influences of others or opposing those influences is beneficial to themselves and their goals. What is beneficial for one is not always beneficial for another. Furthermore, the situation may require one or the other. Simply conforming to what you express as "reality" and the "Great Work" may not be beneficial to either of us. I would have to go against my own experiences and what I am learning for myself and from others... becoming more asleep. Your Awareness would not be peaked by having to negotiate an alternative expression of some of the concepts your own convictions are founded upon, and if you are deluding yourself then my compulsory compliance only helps you stay Asleep. My interpretation, and the interpretations of others I have Worked with and read, discuss only Working against False Personality. Once the Essential Self is discovered, it should be nourished. The Individual should choose to regularly engage in exercises that will confirm in their minds that they are still building up their Essence and not engaging in delusional False Personality, but that is an Individual matter. It is of value to build "force" for the three lines of Work, but a waste when a clear goal is not present for that force to be directed towards. I forget the name of the author, but I read that in the Work, purpose is of paramount importance. Lifting a glass of water can be Work, but one does not lift the glass merely to feel its heft, one lifts a glass of water to take a drink. Force requires direction toward a purpose.
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 8, 2011 13:25:37 GMT -6
What about external considering as Fourth Way training? Doesn't a student of the Work need to struggle against himself, his natural inclinations, even what he assumes to be his essence or true self? I believe that behaving outwardly as those surrounding would have one behave can provide excellent material for making inner changes. Such activity also generates force for the second and third lines of Work. In fact, the atmosphere of an entire school can be super-charged by consistent focus on external considering.
The exercise you are describing is akin to an exercise used by the ONA and other spiritual/philosophical schools as well as the Work. Can the Individual maintain his consistent Internal Self while engaging in practices, concepts, or activities that he or she would normally avoid or even oppose? In the Work, such an exercise serves to high-light the distinction between Internal and External Consideration. You are right, the exercise provides data regarding potential inner changes that otherwise would take longer to uncover. It is, however, just an exercise. It is not meant to be how one lives their life or deals with every situation, and it is certainly not engaged in simply at the behest of another. The Individual decides if the exercise is of value, and engages in that exercise as they see fit (even if being encouraged or guided by another, the Individual still chooses to follow or comply with that guidance). Ultimately, the Individual decides if conforming to their surroundings and the influences of others or opposing those influences is beneficial to themselves and their goals. What is beneficial for one is not always beneficial for another. Furthermore, the situation may require one or the other. Simply conforming to what you express as "reality" and the "Great Work" may not be beneficial to either of us. I would have to go against my own experiences and what I am learning for myself and from others... becoming more asleep. Your Awareness would not be peaked by having to negotiate an alternative expression of some of the concepts your own convictions are founded upon, and if you are deluding yourself then my compulsory compliance only helps you stay Asleep. My interpretation, and the interpretations of others I have Worked with and read, discuss only Working against False Personality. Once the Essential Self is discovered, it should be nourished. The Individual should choose to regularly engage in exercises that will confirm in their minds that they are still building up their Essence and not engaging in delusional False Personality, but that is an Individual matter. It is of value to build "force" for the three lines of Work, but a waste when a clear goal is not present for that force to be directed towards. I forget the name of the author, but I read that in the Work, purpose is of paramount importance. Lifting a glass of water can be Work, but one does not lift the glass merely to feel its heft, one lifts a glass of water to take a drink. Force requires direction toward a purpose. Perhaps there's a middle ground between slavishly adhering to the consideration of others and only using external analysis in a mercenary fashion. I believe the exercise can help something new to take root inside of us.
I was thinking about it last night. Try smiling all day, do whatever outward communication, such as body language, makes you feel good and positive. After awhile, it becomes more difficult to be a grouch within. As above, so below. The external begins to match the internal and vice versa. If more people tried this experiment, there would surely be less assholes in the world.
If I may again quote a piece of insightful, B Influence scifi...
"Without change, something sleeps inside us." ~ Dune
Making changes without reason is rather useless, especially when compared with making changes according to one's aim. For me, The Work and what it leads to is its own reward. Higher consciousness elevates our every aspect. The Great Work of our Cthulhu Cult points towards Godhood, yet individuals must journey alone... unified but separate.
I agree that the essential self should be nurtured. But you, Jason, are not like other Fourth Way practitioners. I mean that as a compliment because you actually do have an essential self. I'm quite certain you had one before you ever came to the CoC. Unfortunately, most students need to slowly build theirs from scratch which can take years.
That's why your perception of The Work, while still extremely valuable, might not be useful to others. Again, it depends on the individual. At least here we can discuss various interpretations in a mature, civil, and respectuful manner. I hope others will soon weigh in according to their own notions of how this System functions.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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