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Post by boksmutant on Feb 3, 2011 17:23:18 GMT -6
Anxiety attacks are the result of an allergic reaction to overwhelming Identification with your environment.
Ive had an anxiety attack three times in my life to the point of almost passing out. Five or six more times but to a lesser degree. "There could be a simple explanation for this" is what I thought today while considering the Fourth Way.
Consider what happens to you in an anxiety attack. You are overwhelmed with reality, life & all the stresses that come at you from day to day. Your heart rate rises, your vision becomes blurred & its like another mind takes over. A mind hopping to carry you into the most mechanical parts of yourself so that it can operate at a "normal" rate(an illusion) & keep up with reality. You realize your mind is overloaded with this responsibility & you will allow it(the crash, attack) to do what it must because it knows what is better for you, "You are out of control, so submit". Suddenly your sitting down,staring at the wall & watching the blood come rushing back to your brain as you come to wakefulness.
Things settle & you feel as if something just took you over & dealt with you like a puppet(cant think of a better word). The rest of the day you feel as if you almost achieved something,a horrible something. But a unique experience all the same.
I say it is an over load of identification with all that is happening around you. The images, memory & sensations that rush in are so"real"to you that you just cant stand it. You become its victim. The crash"attack" is the result of your true self trying to battle this overly outward experience. Its a fight that takes place to defend you, to free you. The attack is a defense against reality, against illusion.
As we all know,identifying with something is a collection of what you know(experience,knowledge,memory & sensation) with that something. Whether its your station in life or the relationships you try to juggle vs your goals for the future. All of it, is comparing what you have learned to what you think will come. And so your grasp on society(life) is something you think you can control, or that you think is estimable & quantifiable. You carry on each day safe in the fact that what you see today will happen tomorrow. This is what we base are day to day lives on! That record of what we know today will happen tomorrow is what were so sure of. We could call our selves puppets of mechanization lol.
So what I think is happening during those feelings of anxiety, is not a weakness to be feared, not a flaw that needs to be controlled, but a call from the Gods themselves. It is a call from your true self to fight against reality, against identifying with reality & the control you tried to put on it. The control reality helped you believe you had.
I feel anxious a lot, & have always saw it as something that must be subdued, controlled. I always feared it. Is it possible to view this as a Que from your inner self to explore your ability to break your own mind of its weaknesses, of reality?
I can't explain it any better than that, but the ease with which we identify our selves on a constant bases must have an byproduct. It is my theory that this byproduct is the "crash" we experience during an anxiety attack. The game becomes to much to bare, the illusion has been cuddled to long & now you sit, staring at the wall trying to catch your breath, trying to stay conscious. I like that.
Awake!
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Post by boksmutant on Feb 13, 2011 10:40:02 GMT -6
I'd like to hear others view on this. Criticism or alternate view.
Awake!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 11:31:40 GMT -6
My opinion is : Belief is reality.
The way you consider your anxiety is everything. It could depress you but you're doing well by considering it positively, as a blessed gift to fight identification.
Considering is a pillar of the 4th way philosophy. And I think it's true, less identification should lead to less anxiety.
Next time you feel anxious, will you try to stop identifying ? to take refuge in the void, to remember that nothing in the world is real.
I never had been anxious but before knowing the CoC, rage sometimes took almost control of me, but it's completely finished now that I stop identifying.
The God we worship is our future selves!
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Post by boksmutant on Feb 20, 2011 18:55:17 GMT -6
After some thought, Ive found that over identifying would lead to a more euphoric state than a "crashing" conclusion. But perhaps over enough time, one could build a chaotic separation of "I"s to the point that some sorta crash might occur. Maybe?
Am I correct in thinking that over identification would lead to a state of euphoria? A dream like state of illusion? Where the illusion is so great that reality becomes more real. In a bad way that is.
What would be the symptoms of over identification?
Awake!
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Post by darkprism on Feb 21, 2011 2:33:32 GMT -6
That's a great question Boksmutanis. An inability to be alert in the present moment comes to mind. Losing track of things around you that are happening and having difficulty focusing. It used to happen to me a lot when I was younger. I'd be part of a conversation between friends and my mind would drift off the subject into imagination and identification. When during the conversation the focus came back around to me, I'd be unable to remember the flow and how it had ended up at the point it was at, and I might say something totally unrelated and out of context which left me feeling like a complete tool due to the ridicule I received from my friends. Which in turn, sent me into a state of negativity and self-loathing. I think they just found it amusing, which I can understand. This had been a problem for me socially and has gotten significantly better by trying to be in the present moment. I guess I've always been a bit of a dreamer though and Self Observation has helped me recognize this. Awake! Dark Prism
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2011 9:39:26 GMT -6
After some thought, Ive found that over identifying would lead to a more euphoric state than a "crashing" conclusion. But perhaps over enough time, one could build a chaotic separation of "I"s to the point that some sorta crash might occur. Maybe? Am I correct in thinking that over identification would lead to a state of euphoria? A dream like state of illusion? Where the illusion is so great that reality becomes more real. In a bad way that is. What would be the symptoms of over identification? Awake! Hmmm... You identify with something that by definition you don't control, so I think over identification lead to over frustration, not euphoria, as things are not turning as wanted.
Now is the moment of Awakening.
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Post by jasonsorrell on Feb 25, 2011 23:28:59 GMT -6
Boksmutanis, you asked me to reply to this thread, and have earned a response.
The first thing I would suggest is to not over-think this or any other concept of the Work. Try to keep it simple.
Identification is essentially becoming so wrapped up in something, whatever it may be, that we stop remembering ourselves.
I have never had an anxiety attack, and based on what you described I hope that I never do. It sounds like reaching a point where your emotional response overwhelms you resulting in physical distress. I agree that identification is involved. It sounds like a catalyst for the chain-reaction that leads to the anxiety attack. Identification could be one of many catalysts for such an event.
For you, the effort not to become identified might have the added benefit of reducing the number of anxiety attacks you have. Limiting the expression of negative emotions might reduce the likelihood of identification.
You become overwhelmed by reality, life, and all the stresses that come at you. These are YOUR emotions. You can choose, if you can remember yourself, to be overwhelmed or not. At least that is the goal. Yrreiht's example of managing his rage is in the same vein. It is a habitual emotional response that you have developed. Emotional responses are chemical in nature, so like any other kind of drug you could be addicted to, it takes time and effort to kick the habit.
I've discussed this kind of thing with the Fourth Way group I meet here in Austin. Some of these folks have 30 or 40 years experience making efforts and Working to remember themselves. Even for them, it remains a matter of struggling to remember themselves, controlling the expression of their negative emotions, and avoiding Identification. There effort is no different than yours or mine. They have just been at it longer.
The way you describe it, as a "que", is a good idea. Using your anxiety as a shock to remember yourself and choosing to not be identified with the emotional experience is an excellent strategy.
I do not know about the statements regarding reality. My viewpoint is that reality is neutral... it is what it is. It is in the perception that it can become hostile, especially when our essential self is buried under so much false personality. The essential self is what it is, like reality. False personality is often transitional and conflicted, so it clashes with the reality it experiences. The I's that demand action when calm is required, or seek complacency when action is needed... that failure of our mechanical selves is how reality can seem to be against us.
In the theater of the mind, belief is reality. The development of self-awareness and an objective awareness of reality leads to the belief we experience in our skulls being a more true representation of the reality around us. We struggle to perceive reality, not conceive it.
I hope you feel that this was a fair trade for your comments and statements of welcome.
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Feb 25, 2011 23:43:56 GMT -6
The first thing I would suggest is to not over-think this or any other concept of the Work. Try to keep it simple. Not to take away from anything you said in addition, but I think that this statement is the most important in all that you posted. Over-analysis will prevent you from being present in the moment and cause you to focus more about what you did wrong rather then what you did right. This could then lead to an expression of negative emotion which would then swerve your intellectual focus over to an emotional one. And that is rarely good... While learning from your mistakes is a sign of awakening, beating yourself up over them is counter-productive. Awake! Apsara Kamalli Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by boksmutant on Feb 26, 2011 16:36:56 GMT -6
This is my problem as well. I will understand identifying to be "getting lost in my environment", correct? This does happens a lot. Could it be safe to say that "shell shock" (when in war), would be a moment of over identification. A dream like safety net to cloud out an overbearing reality?
Awake!
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Post by darkprism on Feb 27, 2011 4:28:41 GMT -6
This is my problem as well. I will understand identifying to be "getting lost in my environment", correct? This does happens a lot. Could it be safe to say that "shell shock" (when in war), would be a moment of over identification. A dream like safety net to cloud out an overbearing reality? Awake! Yes, the thought you've given to identification as "getting lost in your own environment", to paraphrase you, is a fairly general, but correct way of looking at this concept of the Work. It could be identification with a single problem or task or many internal processes you are identifying with at the same time as impressions, noises and sensory bombardment coming to you from the external world. This experience of being lost in your environment taken to the extreme could lead to anxiety, especially when one is forced to function under their normal set of life circumstances. It could definitely build to point of being overwhelmed. I know I've experienced this uncomfortable over -identification many times. I've found that closing my eyes slightly, squinting to be more exact, to be useful in times like these. By narrowing my field of vision slightly, it allows me to come back into myself to remember that I am here. By blocking out some of the distracting impressions of the outside world, you can remember where you are and what is going on and regain some sort of composure. The breathing techniques you talked about on another thread are also very helpful and is a technique used in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for reducing anxiety. I'm not sure about shell shock as I've never been in war, however my father is a Vietnam Veteran and served 18 months in action over in Vietnam. He suffers from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder which I'm pretty sure is the name they give shell shock now, as that was a term from the first world war. Noises and sudden shocks cause anxiety in him. Being under a prolonged period of distress can cause this condition or even shorter periods of intense trauma. Awake! Dark Prism
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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 1, 2011 14:58:27 GMT -6
This is my problem as well. I will understand identifying to be "getting lost in my environment", correct? This does happens a lot. Could it be safe to say that "shell shock" (when in war), would be a moment of over identification. A dream like safety net to cloud out an overbearing reality? Awake! I think, based on Gurdjieff's definitions, that becoming lost in your environment is a fair estimation. I might go a little further, suggesting that Identification is internalizing your environment. In other words, what you having going on internally driven by what you are experiencing externally. You become like a mirror, just a reflection of what is going on around you rather than distinct and projecting what you choose into the world.
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Post by boksmutant on Mar 31, 2011 15:07:50 GMT -6
I think what I am doing wrong in my evaluation is considering it as a plague, when it is more like an illusion. I believe it to be a force that hits me noticeably, when it is probably a lot more subtle & natural to me. You can tell I like to put things in black & white & would like to view identifying as a force out side me that I can see coming. A force that would have direct & noticeable impact when its happening.
But I can tell from what you all have said & what I have read, that I might do better to think of identifying as something a bit more relaxed & unobtrusive. Something less noticeable. Ive heard most of the facts, so feel free to be more critical of my view, since i have a tendency to see things as either for me or against me, when I should probably be looking more within. This does help to explain it pretty well along with Darkprism's view.
So far it is unclear to me just what the sensation "feels like" when one identifies. Is it noticeable? Thank you for your comment so far as i am piecing it together.
Awake!
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Post by hartnell on Mar 31, 2011 15:26:23 GMT -6
My best guess is that the sensation of identification can't be known (as you're identified) -- it's the experience of not identifying that one would want to learn to recognize. I'm assuming from what I've read so far the best practice is to assume that you are currently in a state of identification and seek self-remembering.
There's a joke DM's play on their players that may relate to this. The DM describes the player's surroundings using only one phrase "It's dark." This allows the player to assume all kinds of reasons that the environment is dark and typically tries all kinds of things, the results of which further confuse the player (as it's dark). As much fun ensues, the player finally tries the absurdly obvious and tells the DM: "I open my eyes." Finally, the player is able to see he has been stumbling around with his eyes closed and all the previously confusing descriptions given to him by the DM make perfect sense.
So, I believe the process is self-remember to see how you've been identifying.
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Post by boksmutant on Apr 2, 2011 14:48:05 GMT -6
I'll just go for it & say that the most obvious moment of identification would be when you are driving & you lose track of time. This has to be a clear as it gets, yes? The Fourth Way describe almost all the symptoms of a situation like this. Day dreaming, zoning out, spacing,considering nothing,etc.
When I was a kid in school, I remember staring at a place on the wall for minutes & minutes considering nothing at all lol. Just blurring my vision & letting my mind go numb. I could say it felt pleasurable or relaxing, but I know nothing was being observed or considered. I might call it a self induced coma lol, but I did it daily no matter where I was.
If it is agreed that "spacing out while driving" is a clear moment of identification(or symptom of it), then that will clear up a lot for me.
Awake!
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Post by hartnell on Apr 2, 2011 15:23:49 GMT -6
But at that time, are you aware you have lost track of time? Or do you become aware of this when you get where you're going?
I have to let someone else answer that.
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Post by darkprism on Apr 2, 2011 18:11:47 GMT -6
I'll just go for it & say that the most obvious moment of identification would be when you are driving & you lose track of time. This has to be a clear as it gets, yes? The Fourth Way describe almost all the symptoms of a situation like this. Day dreaming, zoning out, spacing,considering nothing,etc. When I was a kid in school, I remember staring at a place on the wall for minutes & minutes considering nothing at all lol. Just blurring my vision & letting my mind go numb. I could say it felt pleasurable or relaxing, but I know nothing was being observed or considered. I might call it a self induced coma lol, but I did it daily no matter where I was. If it is agreed that "spacing out while driving" is a clear moment of identification(or symptom of it), then that will clear up a lot for me. Awake! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I would agree with you that spacing out while driving could be a clear-cut case of identification. It depends. If you arrive at your destination and suddenly come back to Awareness and wonder where you were for x amount of time, then you were 'somewhere', but definitely not entirely present with Awareness. Perhaps you were caught up in thoughts, feelings and memories in a mechanical sense, meaning that these things just come and go without you exhibiting conscious control over them. If you are zoned out, this would indicate an absence of Self remembering. Remember that Self remembering with effort tends to only last a few seconds before you more or less become identified with something again, that's why it is so difficult and it is why we always fall back to the second state of consciousness of waking sleep. It always requires effort. It isn't automatic. This 'zoning out' is a common scenario for me when driving a long distance on a highway, or a long stretch of road with no traffic lights. My mechanical, moving body goes on auto pilot whilst driving the car and I am usually thinking about random events or memories that seem to come to mind without any conscious effort, which would imply that I am not aware or conscious in the moment. As an aside to this, the scenery outside the car becomes a unmemorable blur and my eyes are so fixated on the road that my mind just wanders through random and trivial topics. It's kind of a pleasant, hypnotic, numbing feeling that I would assume would be similar to staring at the wall without any conscious effort. It is only when coming into a town or lit up suburb requiring one to reduce speed and concentrate and focus attention that this mind numbing effect ceases and you tend to become more Aware and recall some of the things you were thinking about and wonder where that time had gone. Where exactly were you all this time? Obviously, tiredness becomes a factor in zoning out as well which would also be an indicator of lack of consciousness. I think it is a good exercise to practice Self Remembering as often as possible while driving you car as it seems to be one of the easiest ways to slip into a 'sleep state' because driving becomes such an automatic skill over the years that it doesn't actually require a high level of concentration unless you are in heavy traffic. Remember it is 'You' driving the car. 'You' are the one using your mechanical body to push down on the accelerator with your foot and reaching out with your hands to steer the wheel. You can be in control if you want to make the effort or you can just float along on auto-pilot. And you will float along on auto-pilot until you 'remember yourself' again. Self Remembering is not a permanent state and will always require us to make constant efforts. Remember thyself! Dark Prism
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Post by boksmutant on Apr 3, 2011 0:57:49 GMT -6
I remember doing the same thing to players lol. That's a rad way of putting it. I like the idea that we are most likely always identifying, always associating. The difference between "ident" & being mechanical soon come's to mind, though. Do they run hand n' hand most of the time? I become aware after I have arrived. Then I realize I barely existed during that time, barely was me.I would imagine the sensation is a desire to "lose control", if it could be described as that. Possibly a letting go of everything to allow your machine to take over.
The scary thought is "am I identifying right now"! As I sit here on the computer, am I identifying? Or is it safe to say that anytime I am "being observant" of my actions(thinking), that I am not identifying? I will assume the latter from what I have gathered.
Thank you for your answers & I think I got it to a good degree. The next thing that I am pulled to think about is the difference between identifying & being mechanical. It would seem a fine line between the two even though they are totally separate. At what point are you just identifying with your surroundings(in our scenario) vs mechanically driving when you disappear in to that zone? Or is it just a simple combination of the two lol?
Could acting mechanical be a catalyst for identification? Could it make it easier to identify?
Awake!
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Post by darkprism on Apr 3, 2011 3:30:15 GMT -6
In our scenario of driving, our mechanical aspect is in full swing as we are not consciously monitoring and implementing conscious thought into every maneuver and action of driving.
How overwhelming would it be to direct thought every time we make a move in our driving. For example, if I thought to myself, "now I shall raise my foot off the accelerator to anticipate the slowing of the speed coming into this speed zone and I command my hands to turn the steering wheel to the left at such and such a degree while coming into this corner", it would be rather tiring, if not pointless.
I guess like riding a bike, driving becomes mechanical after the skill has been learned and doesn't require constant thought and focus once it has been. We are mechanical, but to 'observe' ourselves being mechanical and responding automatically to things is already a step in the right direction to becoming more conscious and aware of our daily habits. If we become proficient at Self Observation, after a while we can choose to do things a little more consciously and new choices become available to enable us to act with more Awareness than we did before, giving us a new sense of control and Self Awareness and perhaps an even better, more efficient and reasonable ways of doing things.
Whenever we forget ourselves we are identified with something. So if we are driving along and either not observing ourselves or remembering ourselves we would be identified with either our thoughts, emotions or physical sensations internally, or merged or identified with what we are perceiving externally via our senses. Sight, hearing, smell, touch or taste.
I'd like to hear other peoples perspective but I would view identification as something we are doing always, unless we are practicing being in the moment, Self Observing, or Self Remembering. Being mechanical is also something we are always doing but if we are Aware of it through Self Observation, it makes us that little bit more Awake and capable of acting in a conscious way, even if only a brief period. With practice, these periods become more frequent and longer in duration.
Being mechanical is what most of us do most of the time as we fall under the law of accident. We react and respond to our environments by learned habits of movement, mirroring and thought patterns, taught to us by other machines. We have moments of Awareness from time to time, either through effort or by accident.
Being identified means there is no 'self' present at the time of identification or we have not remembered that we are separate from the experience. The experience is all there is.
I would say the two work hand in hand, most of the time. If we cease to identify, we become more conscious and less mechanical.
If we act more consciously, and with more Awareness, our actions and thoughts become less mechanical and more conscious.
It's a tricky thing to explain, and I hope at least some of what I've attempted to explain has made sense. Once again, other Cultists' input would be very appreciated. Very thought provoking questions Boksmutanis.
Awake!
Dark Prism
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