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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 16, 2010 15:44:00 GMT -6
I read in "in search of the miraculous" that everything that exist is material, including knowledge, and so a limited amount of knowledge is available for men. Gurdjieff explain that it's because many men are not interested that a little few are able to gather precious knowledge and to be wise. Comments on this ? Don't worry. Be happy. Make efforts. Great topic for discussion, Yrreiht! I'm exalting you for that.
I'll wait a day or two before posting my own thoughts. In the meantime, Cultists and forum members, please focus on this post as much if not more than something like the Emerald Mass. The latter sounds like more fun, it's true; however, the former will yield far greater dividends.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by lokidreaming on Dec 17, 2010 4:19:13 GMT -6
I am going to start by defining "Knowledge" and "Material"
Knowledge is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as (i) expertise, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject; (ii) what is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information; or (iii) awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation. Philosophical debates in general start with Plato's formulation of knowledge as "justified true belief." There is however no single agreed definition of knowledge presently, nor any prospect of one, and there remain numerous competing theories. Knowledge acquisition involves complex cognitive processes: perception, learning, communication, association and reasoning. The term knowledge is also used to mean the confident understanding of a subject with the ability to use it for a specific purpose if appropriate.
Material is anything made of matter, constituted of one or more substances. Wood, cement, hydrogen, air and water are all examples of materials. Sometimes the term "material" is used more narrowly to refer to substances or components with certain physical properties that are used as inputs to production or manufacturing. In this sense, materials are the parts required to make something else, from buildings and art to stars and computers.
How one interprets this answer is dependant on the individual who is interpreting and answering this.
Person A who answer this question is well versed with Dialectical Materialism (A. Spirkin) version of this stament with a dash of Jung, Frued and other philosophers.
Person B is well versed in Jung Frued and other philosophers but not well versed in the Dialectical Materialism (A. Spirkin) origins of this stament but well versed in "In Search of the Miraculous" (Ouspensky) version of this statement
Person C is well rounded in the fields of psychology and philosophy and statements like that but has not read in depth on any authors.
Person D has basic knowledge on those matters but chooses not to delve in due to whatever reasons.
I myself fall into the catergory of Person C and Person D therfore my reponse to this statement will from the point of view of Person C and person D.
Since we got that out of the way I am now ging to answer this statement in the next post. I have decided to do this as this part just detracts and dilutes my response and answer to the statement(s).
The style I will be answering it in is Q&A which in turn is influenced by the writing style of Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson (G. I. Gurdjieff) and Carlos Castaneda books.
(So I was right that the author is the same person COC is referring to)
Due to my above PERSON A-PERSON D examples I am very eager to read others answers on this matter.
Belief Is Reality Loki Dreaming
ps:- I shall post my response when I have finished drafting it as it has been ove 2 hours now typing into the COC boards and am not getting anyway fast.
pss:- Does this count as part of THE GREAT WORK? As there is a chance that when I do finish the final draft it will be Sunday your time and am eager to post my response.
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 17, 2010 11:38:35 GMT -6
Yes, this is the sort of post that is most definitely encouraged on Sundays. Looking forward to reading what you come up with, and not just you but everyone on the forum!
I don't think we need to get too deep into Person A and such. Yes, people are different and view things in various ways, but it helps us to speak about these important issues from our essence. Focus on that.
Try to not answer from the formatory aspects of your mind. Formatory thinking, for those who don't know, is seeing things as only black and white; formatory feeling is seeing things as either pleasurable or painful. The formatory parts of our centers do not allow for gray area, a higher middle ground, reconciling force, the third side... all of these flowing from the higher portions of our emotional and intellectual centers.
This may help if you run into trouble... try to answer the question if you were speaking as someone else such as Ouspensky, the Dalai Lama, Jesus Christ, Anton LaVey, or someone like that. Or simply ask yourself, "What would Venger Satanis do?"
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by lokidreaming on Dec 18, 2010 1:52:04 GMT -6
Loki Dreaming¡'s Response Part 1
Student: What is knowledge?
Master: From my point of view knowledge is the stored sum of what we have been taught and what we have learnt from those teachings.
Student: Then how is knowledge material?
Master: The act of recording down knowledge is transforming that knowledge into material form. Books pdf files, and cd-roms are all forms of material knowledge. Even cave paintings, stone circles and doing and not doing are acts of material knowledge or even a rock cave. Student:
Are you saying that due to lack of resources to create new material knowledge for everyone is the reason why knowledge is limited?
Master: That is the most literal view of it
Student: The most literal?
Master: Yes, the most literal.
Student: Is there any other views of material knowledge?
Master: Yes and no.
Student: Please explain. I'm confused.
Master: The popular belief is everything is related and it is not at the same time. There have been countless discussions and debates over it. From my own research, observation and experiences knowledge itself can be materialistic in terms it has its own molecular properties.
Student: As in knowledge can exist in material form?
Master: That is one of the possibilities.
Student: Isn't that impossible?
Master: Perhaps. Can you see the light rays? Can you see the air around you? Can you see the atoms around you?
Student: No
Master: If you were to see your thoughts as light rays and each individual light ray represents each individual stream of thought and each atom represents an individual thought.
Student: I don't know where you are going with this and what has this got to do with knowledge?
Master: Before knowledge is recorded down into material form where was this knowledge before this?
Student: In our heads? Master: And how do we get that knowledge from our head to a material form?
Student: Our brains send signals to our hands to write it down to paper therefore that knowledge transforms to knowledge material.
Master: So you are saying that if I was to use a computer to transform my knowledge, my brain would send signals to my hands and type on the keyboard and transfer that knowledge in my head to the screen? Student: Yes and don't forget to print it, when you print it, it becomes a hard copy as in it is now printed on paper therefore the knowledge becomes material knowledge.
Master: So the words on the screen are a soft copy?
Student: No. It's stuck in cyberspace and in order to make it a soft copy you need to save the file so it can become a soft copy.
Master: So if I don't print it or save it, it stays on the screen.
Student: Yes.
Master: And when you save it, it goes to the hard drive?
Student: Yes and the hard drive acts as the brain of the computer. No, that would be the processor and the RAM. The hard drive is the storage space.
Master: So the brain acts as a processor?
Student: The brain acts as the processor and the storage space.
Master: So each thought is like a file sorted in the storage space, in this case the brain?
Student: Yes.
Master: And each file is so much in size?
Student: Yes.
Master: So the words I see on the screen how is that possible?
Student: There's a program that converts the 1 and 0's of the binary code so you can see the words on the screen, even the word program you use is created by using binary codes.
Master: The website uses html coding, so that also is dependant on binary coding?
Student: Yes and nearly all technology is dependant on binary coding and binary coding has other uses in other fields and you web address is a very good example of binary coding.
Master: Could you explain the whole process from the start for me please?
Student: First of all you use programming codes which uses binary coding to create the Operating system e.g., Windows. That OS allows the user to graphically interact with the computer instead of just using programming language to operate and use the computer. All programming languages are based on binary coding. Then you need to create technology to help interact with the programs like MS Word e.g., keyboards, mouse, monitors etc and each of these technologies also has programs to tell these devices what actions to take. The operating system in turn has programs to detect and acknowledge these new devices and technologies and in turn acts like a traffic warden issuing hardware addresses and IRQ numbers in a neat line so they don't fight over the available resources and crash the OS.
You probably guessed that these devices and technologies are based on binary coding as well.
Master: Electricity is not binary coding?
Student: No
Master: So you use electricity or a energy source to start up the computer and in turn the program to read the words on the screen?
Student: Correct.
Master: Now, how is this similar to the process of thought?
Student: Well, your thought are the files and your brain is the storage bank. Everytime you want to access it the processor which is also the brain sorts out the thought(s) that you are after and retrieves it for you?
Master: What is the size of a thought?
Student: What?
Master: The size of a thought.
Student: Well...A file say is 1 byte long, so the size of a thought is...depending on the length of the thought...that can't be right...the size of a brain is...so each thought has to be the size of...this is crazy, you can't measure the size of a thought.
Master: Perhaps.
Student: That's just crazy, you can't measure the size of a thought and no one has attempted it, it is just not possible.
Master: Just because there's no documented proof of it or you haven't come across the relevant material yet does not mean someone has not tried to before.
Did you just not try before?
Student: Yes...but...
Master: What is the weight of a thought?
Student: Thought doesn't have weight.
Master: A hard drive is where the files are stored and the hard drive is around 3.5kg and each disk ways about 100 grams. I do admit proofing that the file has weight can be tricky.
Student: That is because data doesn't have weight.
Master: It is like a record or cd it writes the data around in circles until there is no more room. When you add data you also add density and density has weight?
Student: Yes...but...a gram? I haven't tried weighing a disk or a hard drive before and after data is written...I see where you are going with this bout this is just crazy!!!!
Master: Is it? It is what I call a possibility.
Student:What do you call a possibility?
Master: Something that has been proven correct time and time again and that possibility is waiting for science to catch up with it.
Student: You are taking the micky out of me aren't you?
Master: Perhaps.
Master: Somehow when you write the data you imprint it like an engraving on a ring.
Student: Then you be taking weight away from the ring.
Master: Yes, you are right, I used the wrong example. Okay, you print the words out on to paper from the computer and you use ink to print the paper with, how much ink in weight has been transferred from the ink cartridge to the paper and what is the weight of the paper now?
Student: I can see where you want me to go with this, but thought does not have weight.
Master: Only because it has notbeen proven yet, still it is a possibility that thought does have weight?
Student: Yes it is a possibility, but it can't and will never be proven as it is intangible and unquantifiable.
Master: By whom is it deemed intangible and unquantifiable?
Student: Everyone. I mean the scientific community and others.
Master: Well then the scientific community and others have a bit of catching up to do.
Student: What's all this to do with knowledge?
Master: Where is knowledge stored?
Student: In the brain like a thought?
Master: Yes, you are right, but how is that knowledge in turn accessed?
Student: Via the processor which is the brain.
Master: No. Try again.
Student: Thinking? You think a thought which in turns access knowledge.
Master: Correct.
Master: Knowledge is like a stored memory which is accessed by thinking a thought, the thinking is the starting point and/or catalyst to get that thought into motion. It's a bit like turning the key in the ignition to get the engine going which in turn gets the car going.
Student: I understand, but I still don't know where you are going with this.
Master: Have patience, there's a point to all of this.
Student: There better be!!!
Master: I'm going to ignore that last remark.
Master: One can have a memory of thought, one can have a thought of a memory, by accessing your thought or your memories you have access to your stored knowledge. In turn you can have knowledge of a thought and knowledge of a memory.
Thought, memory and knowledge are interchangeable yet they are separate at the same time which reminds me of an atom structure expect it's structure is fixed. The atom has three layers of energy, which then has of protons, neutrons, and a electron. You can not interchange these layers. So I wonder sometimes if this is an example of microcosm and macrocosm or and example or monism or just a healthy symbiotic relationship between those three...I went off tangent...where was I?...storage space...there is only so much information that can be stored in the brain before it gets full. So where does the excess stuff go when we create new thoughts and memories and knowledge, does it get purged out of our brains, therefore we have residual memories of past memories? I know a few theories like this.
However there is another possibility; The possibility that there are data servers externally somewhere and we are hooking in remotely.
Student: You are saying that some of our stored memories and knowledge are stored somewhere externally?
Master: Yes, in a sever scenario, the work station computer has only enough storage space and memory to start up the basic requirements for that wok station and has spare storage space and for extra information accessed from the sever. The server and work station connect and communicate trough a series of cables, hubs, ports, routers, bridges, switches, firewalls etc and all these requirements and specifications are predetermined by an Administrator or a group of Administrators operating from baseline guides.
Student: You want me to believe the world is like the Matrix movie?
Master: No, not like the Matrix movie.
Student: So if I was to relate the server example and imply that the brain has predetermined storage space ad their is external server or servers that we can access, then where are these servers and are the cables hubs etc.?
Master: The answer to that is simple. The cables represents our consciousness or our sub consciousness or even our spirituality, the server or servers are somewhere out there in the cosmos and the servers act as a source of knowledge via many possibilities. At times I feel like its more like an umbilical cord and we are feeding off the nutrients of the cosmos. Student: And what are these possibilities?
Master: Past life experiences, reincarnation, separate realities, parallel dimensions and maybe even a high form of consciousness or sub consciousness and maybe the practice of setting up Demilitarized Zones and putting the servers in there with firwalls can be related to higher consciousness protecting itself? If so, are we numbered like hardaware adressess and IRQ's and who are the traffic wardens?
Student: You are just grasping at straws.
Master: Perhaps.
Student: What I know is that anything is possible.
Master: Maybe we are the remainder of a input/output conflict like Neo from the Matrix movie and maybe we are not.
The select few of us has managed to somehow to run full duplex instead of half duplex.
The question the select few always keep on asking themselves are we still connected to the umbilical cord and if we not, which is the illusion and which is the truth?
Student: That is hard to believe.
Master: At the moment you are running full duplex in terms that can connect and communicate with the cosmos and in turn the cosmos can connect and communicate with you and remember before who you are now, you were running half duplex like a blind Christian.
Student: So you are saying that there is a possibility our cable which is our consciousness, sub consciousness or spirituality can connect to the cosmos and access knowledge from it? Knowledge that wasn't part of our basic programming: Does that mean we are preprogrammed then and by whom? I believe that we humans do evolve therefore we have evolved...I'm confusing myself...for a computer to evolve you need to upgrade its components. For a human to upgrade you need right nutrition, exercise, medication, vaccinations, inoculations and possibly dna sequencing.
Master: Don't forget eugenics.
Student: That's not funny.
Master: I'm not being funny.
Student: I'm right how humans upgrade and evolve?
Master: Depends what you mean by evolving and to evolve, that is not important right now.
Master: So a human can upgrade a computer and can a computer upgrade a human?
Student: No...not unless that computer is also a robot?...NO WAY!!!
Master: It is possibility isn't it?
Student: Yes.
Master: So taking the Matrix movie as an example, can a human upgrade a sentinel and a sentinel upgrade a human?
Student: Yes and yes.
Master: Who are the sentinels?
Student: NO FUCKING WAY!!!...You are saying that there is a possibility that we have been upgraded by sentinels?
Master: That is a possibility.
Student: Who are these Sentinels?
Master: I have not come up with a satisfactory answer or conclusion for that yet regarding that possibility.
Master: I would like you to have a guess at who these Sentinels could possibly be.
Student: First thing that comes to mind is the Archons.
Master: What material have you been reading? Archons!!! Now that is an exciting possibility.
Student: I also had come up with demons but they wouldn't upgrade us physically therefore it must be a certain way they interact with us in the head mentally? By tempting us? Changing the way we think?
Master: I hope you were just joking right now.
Student: No.
Master: Knowledge can upgrade a human and it can not.
Student: You saying that these Sentinels upgrade us by giving us knowledge.
Master: That is also another possibility.
Student: Some Sentinels are good and some are bad?
Master: I see Sentinels as those who want to play nice, thoes who want to play tricky and those who just want to be left alone and forgotten about.
Student: Like naughty little kids and good kids.
Master: Perhaps.
Master: I sometimes also see them like Q off Star Trek: TNG; the Sentinels have lived a long time and they are bored and lonely as everyone is like them, near perfect and knowing nearly everything there is to know. Then they encounter someone like us who has the receptiveness to connect and communicate with them. They will play with us testing us out in turn testing themselves out by default to see if they are still as good as they think they are and sometimes the damage and destruction they cause they do not mean it, due to it being one of there games getting slightly out of control.
Student: This is getting a bit too much to process.
Master: Well luckily I have only two main points left to discuss
Master: Binary coding is the base for nearly all technology and electricity powers up the circuits to get the programs running in turn brining the computer to life; therefore our DNA coding is the base of our make up and most living organisms, therefore what was the electricity that breathe life into our coding?
Student: Are you going off on a tangent again?
Master: Yes and for your unnecessary interruptions today you have just found some homework to do.
Master: There are parallels between the examples I have given you, both have coding structures which in turn needs equipment and casing to protect it and help perceive the coding.
In the human body you have coding that is flowing everywhere around your body. You have a skin casing to protect your internal organs. Your head acts like a monitor. You breathe oxygen to keep alive, however I do not believe this is the spark of life, so your homework is to ponder over what the spark of life is.
Also when you go home put the monitor on top of the tower case and meditate over how it looks like a person and how mechanical that person is in front of you and the difference between you and that mechanical person in front of you.
Student: Um...ok.
Master: Final lesson for the day.
Student: Yippee Ki Yay
Master: You want more homework?
Student: No
Master: Material knowledge can be a physical object too; this is the result of the object being in a stored material knowledge state. These stored material knowledge states is nearly always created by nature itself and we humans have learnt to access this knowledge through observation. A really good example of this is when a tree falls over and the higher amount of rings the tree has, the older the tree is. The tree has stored material knowledge of its age.
Master: That's all for the day. See you next week.
Student: No questions about what I learnt today?
Master: No, not today, what you take and learn from today ¡'s lessons is up to you.
Student: In what way up to me?
Master: Knowledge works differently for everyone, the knowledge seeps in at different ways and rates. You think what knowledge is after this lesson? Do you really know what knowledge is? After all you just sat here and listened to what I think knowledge is.
Student: So this really is a lesson in knowledge and not on thought patterns?
Master: Yes.
Master: I am going to leave you with a gift.
The journey you took to get to a solution to a problem is at times more important than the final solution that you have just solved.
And one more thing, 1 Teragig of stored data is rouhgly 5oz.
Student: You are definitely taking the mickey out of me now aren't you?
Master: Perhaps.
End of Part 1
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