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Post by egodiabolus on Oct 8, 2010 16:29:27 GMT -6
"Identification in relation to people takes a special form which is called, in this system, considering. But considering can be of two kinds—when we consider other people's feelings, and when we consider our own. Chiefly we consider our own feelings. We consider mostly in the sense that people somehow do not value us enough or do not think about us enough, or are not careful enough about us. We find many words for that. This is a very important facet of identification and it is very difficult to be free from it; some people are fully in its power. In any case, it is important to observe considering."
- P.D. Ouspensky The Fourth Way
Belief is reality. Reality is a prison. These are phrases passed through the Cult's Ideology. Anyone quickly browsing could easily be misled in their meaning. Anyone more familiar could still equally fall into the trance of this perpetual psychosomatic riddle. Around and around it goes in its vicious loop twisting, flexing, and skewing to fit different fancies. Let us stop for a moment and reflect. What could this really mean? If our belief is our reality and our reality is our prison... Then doesn't this mean our beliefs imprison us? Recently I was re-watching the movie Dogma, when a little inspiration hit me. The character Rufus said,
"He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name: wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it."
The question was then posed by the protagonist Bethany " Having beliefs isn't good? "
What Rufus then said, rang to my ears like the march of a million drummers.
"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea, changing a belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant." This sounded so familiar to me, but why? I remembered the first chapter in The Fourth Way by P.D. Ouspensky. Having read this book a dozen times or so by now, I was a bit surprised it had gotten passed me. After all, anyone even familiar with The Fourth Way is quickly let on to the fact that there IS a special language used to convey ideas.
"BEFORE I BEGIN TO EXPLAIN TO YOU in a general way what this system is about, and to talk about our methods, I want particularly to impress on your minds that the most important ideas and principles of the system do not belong to me. This is chiefly what makes them valuable, because if they belonged to me they would be like all other theories invented by ordinary minds—they would give only a subjective view of things.
-P.D. Ouspensky The Fourth Way" Suddenly I realized throughout everything I had read by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, all things were talked about in Ideas and Principles. Was this really the case, were all things discussed as ideas? Was belief held in the same context as Rufus has described? If it was the case that belief was absent from the teaching's of Gurdjieff, then why?
"There is no question of faith or belief in all this. Quite the opposite, this system teaches people to believe in absolutely nothing. You must verify everything that you see, hear and feel. Only in that way can you come to something."
- P.D. Ouspensky The Fourth Way
"The more a man understands what he is doing, the greater will be the results of his efforts. This is a fundamental principle of the fourth way. The results of work are in proportion to the consciousness of the work. No 'faith' is required on the fourth way; on the contrary, faith of any kind is opposed to the fourth way. On the fourth way a man must satisfy himself of the truth of what he is told. And until he is satisfied he must do nothing."
-G.I. Gurdjieff Quoted by Ouspensky In Search of the Miraculous
After running a word search on the PDF of The Herald of Coming Good by Gurdjieff, my finds were that the word faith was mentioned once within the text and the word belief only with 3 mentions. Amazingly though, the word idea was used 30 times within the 87 page book. The mention of faith was within the context of its "consequences of the action of its impulse on man". The word belief was used all three times in a listing of problems Gurdjieff saw that needed to be struggled against...
"PROBLEM OF THE FIRST SERIES. Mercilessly, without any compromise whatsoever, to extirpate from the mentation and feeling of man the previous, century-rooted views and beliefs about everything existing in the world."
- G.I. Gurdjieff Herald of the Coming Good
In my eyes there is no need to continue examining this, at least externally. I feel it is obvious that G and Ouspensky both thought in a manner similar to the character Rufus. I will however, encourage all who read this post to put it to a harsh lens. Pick it apart until you're absolutely convinced as I am. G would've wanted it this way.
"On the fourth way a man must satisfy himself of the truth of what he is told. And until he is satisfied he must do nothing."
-Gurdjieff
On to answering the question I posed earlier in this post. If it was the case that belief was absent from the teaching's of Gurdjieff, then why? When man holds a belief, he Identifies with it. He becomes too absorbed in it. He becomes too lost in it. Just as Rufus said it anchors you to a point and limits the growth. The ability to form new ideas dies and life becomes stagnant. He begins Internal Considering and starts to feel that people do not give him enough. He feels somehow the world owes him something. All of this Happens because of his faith and beliefs. As a student of The Fourth Way, I'll stick to Ideas. My beliefs will not be my prison.
Awake!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
Nothing to add here. Just need to remind myself to keep this idea at the forefront of my mind. Awesome post!
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhatgn!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by nyrlthtp on Oct 8, 2010 22:18:31 GMT -6
...{"}Belief is reality.{"} {"}Reality is a prison.{"} ...If our belief is our reality and our reality is our prison... Then doesn't this mean our beliefs imprison us? ... such a 'reality' is only as real as the 'self' is real before it stabilizes (that is, not at all). that doesn't make it less of a limit or prison, however. is having fish for dinner good? is a cast good? are braces? when i want or need something strong and stable, i will not be benefitted by the flimsy and flexible. if i want to push off to reach a distance i will wish to push against something solid. there is no 'objective view of things'. what is called 'objective' is an ideal of 'no position' transcendant to subjectivity. in art, this is referred to in relation to divinity. quite a conundrum if one does not see the truth of this assertion. When man holds a belief, he Identifies with it. He becomes too absorbed in it. He becomes too lost in it. ... it anchors you to a point and limits the growth. what is too absorbed or too lost for one may not be so for another. sometimes anchoring to a point and being limited is necessary overall for long-term growth or development of a particular and important type. sounds very hopeful. is it possible to use beliefs such that they may become things other than prison bars?
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Oct 8, 2010 23:16:29 GMT -6
...As a student of The Fourth Way, I'll stick to Ideas. My beliefs will not be my prison. sounds very hopeful. is it possible to use beliefs such that they may become things other than prison bars? I don't think so. In my social experiences, most of someone's sense of limitation has to do with their belief in their own level of ability. Although the limitation may be blamed on some factor external of the self, the truth is that we choose to believe that we are incapable of rising above the restrictions previously set in place.
And then to make it even better, we seek out others with the same beliefs so that they can reinforce them and give them a sense of legitimacy. When someone comes along and challenges our beliefs, we feel like they just don't understand us or the difficulties we face. Some people need these restrictions in their life in order to feel that their life has value. However, fellow cultists should strive to recognize these limitations and actively remove them from daily living.
Great post, First Priest of R'lyeh Beast Xeno.
Awake!
Apsara Kamalli Esoteric Wizard of Terrible Darkness Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by lucofthelight on Oct 9, 2010 0:48:01 GMT -6
"Identification in relation to people takes a special form which is called, in this system, considering. But considering can be of two kinds—when we consider other people's feelings, and when we consider our own. Chiefly we consider our own feelings. We consider mostly in the sense that people somehow do not value us enough or do not think about us enough, or are not careful enough about us. We find many words for that. This is a very important facet of identification and it is very difficult to be free from it; some people are fully in its power. In any case, it is important to observe considering."
- P.D. Ouspensky The Fourth Way
Belief is reality. Reality is a prison. These are phrases passed through the Cult's Ideology. Anyone quickly browsing could easily be misled in their meaning. Anyone more familiar could still equally fall into the trance of this perpetual psychosomatic riddle. Around and around it goes in its vicious loop twisting, flexing, and skewing to fit different fancies. Let us stop for a moment and reflect. What could this really mean? If our belief is our reality and our reality is our prison... Then doesn't this mean our beliefs imprison us? Recently I was re-watching the movie Dogma, when a little inspiration hit me. The character Rufus said,
"He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name: wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it."
The question was then posed by the protagonist Bethany " Having beliefs isn't good? "
What Rufus then said, rang to my ears like the march of a million drummers.
"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea, changing a belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant." This sounded so familiar to me, but why? I remembered the first chapter in The Fourth Way by P.D. Ouspensky. Having read this book a dozen times or so by now, I was a bit surprised it had gotten passed me. After all, anyone even familiar with The Fourth Way is quickly let on to the fact that there IS a special language used to convey ideas.
"BEFORE I BEGIN TO EXPLAIN TO YOU in a general way what this system is about, and to talk about our methods, I want particularly to impress on your minds that the most important ideas and principles of the system do not belong to me. This is chiefly what makes them valuable, because if they belonged to me they would be like all other theories invented by ordinary minds—they would give only a subjective view of things.
-P.D. Ouspensky The Fourth Way" Suddenly I realized throughout everything I had read by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, all things were talked about in Ideas and Principles. Was this really the case, were all things discussed as ideas? Was belief held in the same context as Rufus has described? If it was the case that belief was absent from the teaching's of Gurdjieff, then why?
"There is no question of faith or belief in all this. Quite the opposite, this system teaches people to believe in absolutely nothing. You must verify everything that you see, hear and feel. Only in that way can you come to something."
- P.D. Ouspensky The Fourth Way
"The more a man understands what he is doing, the greater will be the results of his efforts. This is a fundamental principle of the fourth way. The results of work are in proportion to the consciousness of the work. No 'faith' is required on the fourth way; on the contrary, faith of any kind is opposed to the fourth way. On the fourth way a man must satisfy himself of the truth of what he is told. And until he is satisfied he must do nothing."
-G.I. Gurdjieff Quoted by Ouspensky In Search of the Miraculous
After running a word search on the PDF of The Herald of Coming Good by Gurdjieff, my finds were that the word faith was mentioned once within the text and the word belief only with 3 mentions. Amazingly though, the word idea was used 30 times within the 87 page book. The mention of faith was within the context of its "consequences of the action of its impulse on man". The word belief was used all three times in a listing of problems Gurdjieff saw that needed to be struggled against...
"PROBLEM OF THE FIRST SERIES. Mercilessly, without any compromise whatsoever, to extirpate from the mentation and feeling of man the previous, century-rooted views and beliefs about everything existing in the world."
- G.I. Gurdjieff Herald of the Coming Good
In my eyes there is no need to continue examining this, at least externally. I feel it is obvious that G and Ouspensky both thought in a manner similar to the character Rufus. I will however, encourage all who read this post to put it to a harsh lens. Pick it apart until you're absolutely convinced as I am. G would've wanted it this way.
"On the fourth way a man must satisfy himself of the truth of what he is told. And until he is satisfied he must do nothing."
-Gurdjieff
On to answering the question I posed earlier in this post. If it was the case that belief was absent from the teaching's of Gurdjieff, then why? When man holds a belief, he Identifies with it. He becomes too absorbed in it. He becomes too lost in it. Just as Rufus said it anchors you to a point and limits the growth. The ability to form new ideas dies and life becomes stagnant. He begins Internal Considering and starts to feel that people do not give him enough. He feels somehow the world owes him something. All of this Happens because of his faith and beliefs. As a student of The Fourth Way, I'll stick to Ideas. My beliefs will not be my prison.
Awake!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
Master Xeno,
That part of the movie Dogma that you quoted struck a chord of truth within me when I first saw it many years ago. To me, that was the great philosophical truth Kevin Smith intended the viewer to take away from the movie and he excellently delivered that truth through comedy. I like how you have uncovered the parallels of this idea in Gudjieff and Ouspensky's works. Great post!
When the Stars are right!
K'ara Kaiul Esoteric Wizard of the Terrible Darkness Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by andrewbloodworth on Oct 9, 2010 7:02:37 GMT -6
sounds very hopeful. is it possible to use beliefs such that they may become things other than prison bars?
I don't think so. In my social experiences, most of someone's sense of limitation has to do with their belief in their own level of ability. Although the limitation may be blamed on some factor external of the self, the truth is that we choose to believe that we are incapable of rising above the restrictions previously set in place.
And then to make it even better, we seek out others with the same beliefs so that they can reinforce them and give them a sense of legitimacy. When someone comes along and challenges our beliefs, we feel like they just don't understand us or the difficulties we face. Some people need these restrictions in their life in order to feel that their life has value. However, fellow cultists should strive to recognize these limitations and actively remove them from daily living.
Great post, First Priest of R'lyeh Beast Xeno.
Awake!
Apsara Kamalli Esoteric Wizard of Terrible Darkness Cult of CthulhuThat was a great post, but seemed to me that it was too much looking into something. When you are awakened and you feel it in your soul, considering others come naturally and to yourself. What are beliefs? Aren't they built on ideas? My beliefs evolve and would never even consider that they are imprisoning me. Should never have limits on ourselves, and should never just seek out others with the same beliefs to feel better. I might be missing the point, but being awakened and/or just being is felt and can't be put into words. When try to put these into words and debate this and that, instead of doing the work, then aren't we missing the point here? I know I'm new to this but i do feel awakened. I feel myself being. I'm not going to debate this and that, or wonder if my beliefs imprison me or anything imprisoning me Evolving is the key and debating this and that we are missing out on life. Not to say that the post wasn't amazing and got us thinking. Which maybe was point, for it brought out responses which are important in a forum such as this. So as I was typing this, I felt a change within and realize the importance of the post in the first place. I had a sense of negativity when I began this post but that has past now, and realize that the post had achieved what it was intended for. Didn't mean to ramble, and thought of deleting this lol, but wanted to keep it and look back on it and learn from it. I should have saved commenting on this post till after I have read the Fourth Way. Seems like a lot of questions arise when one starts reading it. I'm sure I won't be any different, and I know that the Power of Now is alot easier to understand. I shouldn't assume that its all the same with just different wordings of this and that. But as of right now I've grasped the Power of Now and feel myself just being. But I realize I'm just in the beginning stages and can learn a great deal from the posts on here. Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
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Post by ieuan on Oct 9, 2010 12:27:36 GMT -6
"Identification in relation to people takes a special form which is called, in this system, considering. But considering can be of two kinds—when we consider other people's feelings, and when we consider our own. Chiefly we consider our own feelings. We consider mostly in the sense that people somehow do not value us enough or do not think about us enough, or are not careful enough about us. We find many words for that. This is a very important facet of identification and it is very difficult to be free from it; some people are fully in its power. In any case, it is important to observe considering."
- P.D. Ouspensky The Fourth Way
Belief is reality. Reality is a prison. These are phrases passed through the Cult's Ideology. Anyone quickly browsing could easily be misled in their meaning. Anyone more familiar could still equally fall into the trance of this perpetual psychosomatic riddle. Around and around it goes in its vicious loop twisting, flexing, and skewing to fit different fancies. Let us stop for a moment and reflect. What could this really mean? If our belief is our reality and our reality is our prison... Then doesn't this mean our beliefs imprison us? Recently I was re-watching the movie Dogma, when a little inspiration hit me. The character Rufus said,
"He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name: wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it."
The question was then posed by the protagonist Bethany " Having beliefs isn't good? "
What Rufus then said, rang to my ears like the march of a million drummers.
"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea, changing a belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant." This sounded so familiar to me, but why? I remembered the first chapter in The Fourth Way by P.D. Ouspensky. Having read this book a dozen times or so by now, I was a bit surprised it had gotten passed me. After all, anyone even familiar with The Fourth Way is quickly let on to the fact that there IS a special language used to convey ideas.
"BEFORE I BEGIN TO EXPLAIN TO YOU in a general way what this system is about, and to talk about our methods, I want particularly to impress on your minds that the most important ideas and principles of the system do not belong to me. This is chiefly what makes them valuable, because if they belonged to me they would be like all other theories invented by ordinary minds—they would give only a subjective view of things.
-P.D. Ouspensky The Fourth Way" Suddenly I realized throughout everything I had read by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, all things were talked about in Ideas and Principles. Was this really the case, were all things discussed as ideas? Was belief held in the same context as Rufus has described? If it was the case that belief was absent from the teaching's of Gurdjieff, then why?
"There is no question of faith or belief in all this. Quite the opposite, this system teaches people to believe in absolutely nothing. You must verify everything that you see, hear and feel. Only in that way can you come to something."
- P.D. Ouspensky The Fourth Way
"The more a man understands what he is doing, the greater will be the results of his efforts. This is a fundamental principle of the fourth way. The results of work are in proportion to the consciousness of the work. No 'faith' is required on the fourth way; on the contrary, faith of any kind is opposed to the fourth way. On the fourth way a man must satisfy himself of the truth of what he is told. And until he is satisfied he must do nothing."
-G.I. Gurdjieff Quoted by Ouspensky In Search of the Miraculous
After running a word search on the PDF of The Herald of Coming Good by Gurdjieff, my finds were that the word faith was mentioned once within the text and the word belief only with 3 mentions. Amazingly though, the word idea was used 30 times within the 87 page book. The mention of faith was within the context of its "consequences of the action of its impulse on man". The word belief was used all three times in a listing of problems Gurdjieff saw that needed to be struggled against...
"PROBLEM OF THE FIRST SERIES. Mercilessly, without any compromise whatsoever, to extirpate from the mentation and feeling of man the previous, century-rooted views and beliefs about everything existing in the world."
- G.I. Gurdjieff Herald of the Coming Good
In my eyes there is no need to continue examining this, at least externally. I feel it is obvious that G and Ouspensky both thought in a manner similar to the character Rufus. I will however, encourage all who read this post to put it to a harsh lens. Pick it apart until you're absolutely convinced as I am. G would've wanted it this way.
"On the fourth way a man must satisfy himself of the truth of what he is told. And until he is satisfied he must do nothing."
-Gurdjieff
On to answering the question I posed earlier in this post. If it was the case that belief was absent from the teaching's of Gurdjieff, then why? When man holds a belief, he Identifies with it. He becomes too absorbed in it. He becomes too lost in it. Just as Rufus said it anchors you to a point and limits the growth. The ability to form new ideas dies and life becomes stagnant. He begins Internal Considering and starts to feel that people do not give him enough. He feels somehow the world owes him something. All of this Happens because of his faith and beliefs. As a student of The Fourth Way, I'll stick to Ideas. My beliefs will not be my prison.
Awake!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
Being at the bottom of the pyramid and looking up, for I have just began to learn of the 4th way methods, this was indeed a great thread, and I for one like learning from others. The Fourth Way book by 'Ouspensky' sold me on the fourth way system. Quote."BEFORE I BEGIN TO EXPLAIN TO YOU in a general way what this system is about, and to talk about our methods, I want particularly to impress on your minds that the most important ideas and principles of the system do not belong to me. This is chiefly what makes them valuable, because if they belonged to me they would be like all other theories invented by ordinary minds—they would give only a subjective view of things." This is what caught my eye, he said " if they belonged to me they would be like all other theories", is he indicating that the fourth way principles and beliefs are just a theory? A theory can be modified, added too, subtracted from, etc, therefore to me it would indicate fluidity. This is why I like a school with many people so your beliefs, principles, or ideas does not become self absorbed, remember he said no one alone can escape, but a few together can, and in Chapter 11, he gave us the 3 lines of work and what needed to done in relation to schools. This is what "sold" me the second time on the fourth way. Quote."There is no question of faith or belief in all this. Quite the opposite, this system teaches people to believe in absolutely nothing. You must verify everything that you see, hear and feel. Only in that way can you come to something." Here again he said you must believe in "absolutely nothing" Several years ago I was in a RHP system where belief was everything and I Just didn't have the imagination to get there, to me the fourth way taught, and this is my take, but correct me if I am wrong, that by self observation, self reflecting, one would see the truth, reality, whereby imagination, or believes held, the lying we tell ourselves would be fired, we would know reality, the real truth would set you free, ah the old idiom the "truth will set you free."Then when he said you must verify everything, doesn't this come about only by observing self, self observation in the 4 centers? Then one would know when the I's of false personality where in play, and would put their self in check with the truth, reality. I love this system you don't have to believe in anything just observe self. Makes me want to fire my imagination "NOW", but for me it is a jihad, a struggle within. I am for ever learning, I do respect and appreciate fellow cultist input. Great thread. AWAKE!
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 11, 2010 14:49:24 GMT -6
That is what I would call the negative side of Belief. Just as one would expect, there is a positive side where reality is a paradise.
While I can't refute Masters Xeno, Ouspensky, and Gurdjieff, I do believe that nyrlthtp understands the potential of positive belief. It can be a powerful tool when used correctly.
Wizard of the Terrible Darkness Apsara Kamalli is also correct that belief can be limiting. Yes, any type of structure can limit us, but can't structure also provide us with a guide to greater glory?
The Cultist who becomes the third side, recognizing both the pitfalls and blessings of belief, can use either to his advantage. A synonym of belief is understanding. I ask the forum, do ideas alone have enough weight or substance to carry us through the abyss?
Now is the moment of Awakening!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by andrewbloodworth on Oct 11, 2010 15:13:24 GMT -6
That is what I would call the negative side of Belief. Just as one would expect, there is a positive side where reality is a paradise.
While I can't refute Masters Xeno, Ouspensky, and Gurdjieff, I do believe that nyrlthtp understands the potential of positive belief. It can be a powerful tool when used correctly.Wizard of the Terrible Darkness Apsara Kamalli is also correct that belief can be limiting. Yes, any type of structure can limit us, but can't structure also provide us with a guide to greater glory?
The Cultist who becomes the third side, recognizing both the pitfalls and blessings of belief, can use either to his advantage. A synonym of belief is understanding. I ask the forum, do ideas alone have enough weight or substance to carry us through the abyss?
Now is the moment of Awakening!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
Master Satanis, I'm not sure ideas alone can carry us through, I think they for sure help. I think it has to be a combination of all the right elements, or I should say all elements just not the right ones. If we can use pitfalls and beliefs to our advantage, I think we need all. All, meaning everything that is. Ideas alone don't have enough substance to carry us through on its own. When ideas change or morph into something else, or becomes belief, or something entirely new and different, I think is enough to spear ahead and give us movement. But alone I don't think could carry us very far. Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
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Post by tentaclednephilim on Oct 11, 2010 15:38:07 GMT -6
A lot of what Master Beast Xeno said sounds a bit like Empiricism, to me.
In our shared 'reality' we have our senses to give us raw (yet incomplete) data. These facts are completely useless by themselves. This can be demonstrated in many optical illusions (the information for a wheel spinning one way is the exact same as it spinning the other way which will make it seem going either way). How we perceive the data makes all the difference.
Anyway, in science, you take a bunch of observable facts, form a hypothesis, then test your hypothesis, then form a conclusion. If your process withstands the fires of doubt, then your conclusion will be considered fact.
Even scientific fact is still belief. It's belief with a high probability of being correct because it came out of inductive logic. We use these strong beliefs to create technology. However, they are still subject to change since nothing is a 100% guarantee (at least to my knowledge).
What's the point of knowledge if you don't do anything with it? To answer High Priest Satanis, ideas are nothing except potential. Unused potential may as well be nothing.
With that being said, I think it prudent to expand our knowledge, find the limits, then exploit their weaknesses.
If I got anything wrong, please let me know.
ia ia Cthulhu fhatgn!
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Post by boksmutant on Oct 11, 2010 19:51:40 GMT -6
For a second there the debate seemed to be about whether or not the COC should use the word "belief".
I for one would like to refer to Cthulhu, the COC teachings & the Fourth Way as my belief's.
It does suck that the word has been so criminally used in the past though. But I dont think Ouspensky would be bothered if his students said they "believed" in them selves or the Fourth Way. Or would he?
Awake! By the way,have you all noticed how we use terms like awake & Ia Ia Cthulhu almost as an extension of our emotional state. Funny.
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Post by lucofthelight on Oct 12, 2010 1:00:44 GMT -6
An idea may be flirted with, entertained and approached with a sense of curious detachment.
A belief is a little more serious than an idea. It is an idea taken that has been verified by personal experience either once or numerous times, by indoctrination, by scientific verification or by a herd like following mentality. Although a belief acts to give one a sense of identity it is also flexible enough to be changed if the appropriate conditions present themselves or knowledge pertaining to the belief is sought out, giving one an alternate perspective.
A conviction is a belief in the extreme and pretty much inflexible unlike beliefs or ideas. An exceptionally high level of personal verification usually accompanies a conviction.
Awake!
K'ara Kaiul Esoteric Wizard of the Terrible Darkness Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by andrewbloodworth on Oct 12, 2010 8:43:08 GMT -6
We are debating about ideas and beliefs. We know what they are, but where does choice fit in to this? The choice to choose a path, a idea, and/or belief.
Choice implies consciousness- a high degree of consciousness, so one could choose to have an idea, which turns into or added to your beliefs and choose the path or paths you want to explore. I choose to carry what I have thru the abyss, is that enough?
Awake!
Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
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Post by nyrlthtp on Oct 12, 2010 10:37:45 GMT -6
...is it possible to use beliefs such that they may become things other than prison bars? ... we choose to believe that we are incapable of rising above the restrictions previously set in place. ...we seek out others with the same beliefs so that they can reinforce them and give them a sense of legitimacy. to me this sounds like a very specific employment of belief. When someone comes along and challenges our beliefs, we feel like they just don't understand us or the difficulties we face. Some people need these restrictions in their life in order to feel that their life has value. However, fellow cultists should strive to recognize these limitations and actively remove them from daily living. yes, it does appear that certain types of belief, or the misuse of belief, can yield severe problems. I am not hearing as yet why belief itself must constitute a problem. where employing the metaphor of structure, belief may be a limiting exoskeleton, yes, but it may also become a ladder, or a crowbar against the rest of our limiting beliefs, thus allowing our escape from imprisoning belief structures. learning how to use belief to self-liberate may be an important skill Workers can learn in order to awaken.
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 12, 2010 14:55:17 GMT -6
Unfortunately, the masses have "objectively verified" the facts or what they understand to be true: ordinary man is already fully conscious and does not need to work on himself, let alone struggle for years in order to Awaken. Of course, we believe otherwise because we have objectively verified things from a different angle.
In my personal experience, I took a leap of faith in Gurdjieff and Ouspensky's System known as The Fourth Way. To give any kind of philosophy, paradigm, or set of techniques a trial run, it probably takes a few months of consistent effort. Without believing in what Gurdjieff and Ouspensky were talking about, I could not have verified my results 4 - 6 months down the road. What's more, I continue to believe that I shall receive more and more benefits as my consciousness expands. I can try to verify the experiences I've read about, but even that requires my belief in something unsubstantiated. That which was promised shall be delivered.
This subject might be one of those things where Cultists will have to agree to disagree. If that's the case, then so be it. I'm happy to acknowledge multiple sides of various issues.
The God we worship is our future selves,
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by andrewbloodworth on Oct 12, 2010 15:07:27 GMT -6
Unfortunately, the masses have "objectively verified" the facts or what they understand to be true: ordinary man is already fully conscious and does not need to work on himself, let alone struggle for years in order to Awaken. Of course, we believe otherwise because we have objectively verified things from a different angle.
In my personal experience, I took a leap of faith in Gurdjieff and Ouspensky's System known as The Fourth Way. To give any kind of philosophy, paradigm, or set of techniques a trial run, it probably takes a few months of consistent effort. Without believing in what Gurdjieff and Ouspensky were talking about, I could not have verified my results 4 - 6 months down the road. What's more, I continue to believe that I shall receive more and more benefits as my consciousness expands. I can try to verify the experiences I've read about, but even that requires my belief in something unsubstantiated. That which was promised shall be delivered.
This subject might be one of those things where Cultists will have to agree to disagree. If that's the case, then so be it. I'm happy to acknowledge multiple sides of various issues.
The God we worship is our future selves,
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
Master Satanis I have to agree with you also on belief. I took a leap of faith(belief) on the Power of Now and The Fourth Way, and my belief shall see me thru to where I want to be. I too believe that I will receive more benefits as my consciousness expands.I believe faith in what we are to become is important. I choose to believe! Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
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Post by ieuan on Oct 12, 2010 20:22:17 GMT -6
Being at the bottom of the ziggurat, my take is The Cult of Cthulhu is a Religion. To be defined as a religion it must have cult, culture, and creed. Cult is followers, culture how do the followers worship, and creed what do the followers Believe in, what is the cult's theology? Doesn't one have to believe or have faith in order to follow the theology? Theology that can be verified by the cult, which produces faith and belief, just my two cents worth.
Awake! Ieuan Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by egodiabolus on Oct 12, 2010 20:56:42 GMT -6
Being at the bottom of the ziggurat, my take is The Cult of Cthulhu is a Religion. To be defined as a religion it must have cult, culture, and creed. Cult is followers, culture how do the followers worship, and creed what do the followers Believe in, what is the cult's theology? Doesn't one have to believe or have faith in order to follow the theology? Theology that can be verified by the cult, which produces faith and belief, just my two cents worth. Awake! Ieuan Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu Should the Cult of Cthulhu be like most other religions... founded on beliefs rather than ideas? Should we not try to stand apart?
Awake!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by ragnafa on Oct 12, 2010 21:09:55 GMT -6
I believe we already stand apart, in the way that the Cult has it's foundational beliefs of many different aspects. Each one of us here either share the same belief or many different ones, unlike the right hand path religions, who I feel everyone is just following the train to nowhere. So I believe that the CoC as a religion should be an aspect of both idea and belief for us to keep our thoughts and message alive. Awake...... Izratan'Sharaz Herald Of the Old God's.
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Post by tentaclednephilim on Oct 12, 2010 21:16:06 GMT -6
I guess the question in my mind now is, does the Cult of Cthulhu pursue a stricter use of language in pursuit of the Work as Gurdjieff described, or is the flexibility of language and the confusion is causes something we should tolerate? My answer to that is shared definitions are the bedrock of solid communication. Solid communication is the grease which lubricates the cogs of any successful organization. I think poor communication should be tolerated to the extent that it can be fixed. The Cult of Cthulhu shall never die.
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Post by ieuan on Oct 12, 2010 21:46:38 GMT -6
Being at the bottom of the ziggurat, my take is The Cult of Cthulhu is a Religion. To be defined as a religion it must have cult, culture, and creed. Cult is followers, culture how do the followers worship, and creed what do the followers Believe in, what is the cult's theology? Doesn't one have to believe or have faith in order to follow the theology? Theology that can be verified by the cult, which produces faith and belief, just my two cents worth. Awake! Ieuan Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu Should the Cult of Cthulhu be like most other religions... founded on beliefs rather than ideas? Should we not try to stand apart?
Awake!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of CthulhuI agree, Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus, we do stand apart from other religions. I am still learning about The Cult of Cthulhu which to me, meets and exceeds all know paradigms in modern religions including satanism. Correct me if I am wrong, the fourth way system is a philosophy, which is the study of man and the study of the world, and our cult is a religion that incorporates the teaching of this system, which is part of the whole. We probably walk a fine line between beliefs, principles, and ideas, which gives us that flexibility and advantage to be different, and stand apart. What I love about the fourth way system, nothing is taken on blind faith, but all is verified. This is what brought me to the Cult of Cthulhu, the fourth way in a left hand path tradition, love this, and learning from fellow cultist. Awake! Ieuan Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 12, 2010 23:20:29 GMT -6
Gurdjieff spoke many languages, but from what I've read he was definitely not a master of English. Ouspensky was, however, and yet the 1920's colored, one might even say distorted, everyone's perspective of words like belief, faith, and even religion. America in the early 20th century was dominated by christianity to the point where one could not hear things like belief, faith, and religion without the mind going straight to the pulpit... the christian pupit.
It also seems reasonable to conclude that whatever outrage and horror H.P. Lovecraft felt about spirituality was chiefly directed at christianity since he also lived in the 1920's. Now, we have a religion devoted to the Great Old Ones, and belief doesn't sound so bad to my ears.
Furthermore, pursuit of a theory will only get one so far, in my estimation. I would probably not have pursued the Fourth Way so arduously if I merely theorized that it could help me heighten awareness. Nor would I have based a religion around it. Belief implies verification to a certain degree. Obviously, we've all heard the phrase "test of faith" or "he had his faith tested". My beliefs and faith have absolutely been tested over the years. I have verified them to be objectively true up to a reasonable point. Everything beyond that is my desire and will to create truth.
"Force without spiritual foundation is doomed to failure". Adolph Hitler said that. While I'm not in the habit of quoting genocidal madmen, I believe that statement is a rare pearl of wisdom. Speaking (tangentially) of genetics, I also believe that there exists a religious gene similar to the idea that there exists a homosexual gene... or particular set of genetic codes. Some of us have it, others don't. That's probably why there are atheists and theists, not only here, but throughout the world.
No matter how much I disbelieved and even detested christianity growing up, I still felt like I was part of something greater in the universe and that a higher force was somehow responsible. Unsubstantiated? Probably, but I'm definitely not alone. Gnosis cannot be verified, no matter how much theorizing and testing is performed.
The Cthulhu Cult shall never die!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by andrewbloodworth on Oct 13, 2010 4:47:06 GMT -6
I would think everyone involved in the CoC would stand by beliefs. I mean isn't this a religion? Don't we worship the Old Ones? While we pursue other areas, like the Fourth Way and many others, our religion is based on belief in the Old Ones. Belief in Cthulhu, belief in the Mythos. Belief in Yog -Sothoth.
As I understand, there is no evidence of such, no scientific proof as of yet. While we still use our my mind and try to figure out why this is that, CoC is fundamentally build on belief. Belief in A:O. Thats the core of CoC, isn't it?
This is a religion, and religion has belief. One must have the other to exist. If this was only a study group then i would say you didn't really need any kind of belief to participate, but this isn't a study group. The forum falls into that category, but the forum represents CoC ,a religion. A religion built on belief on the A:O.
While we pursue our own goals and goals of the CoC, I think we can't lose our basic belief on what the CoC is built on. I think whatever ideas you have on belief, I think belief is the reason you were first attracted to the CoC.
Awake!
Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
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Post by ragnafa on Oct 13, 2010 5:40:07 GMT -6
Your absolutly right brother, in everything you say. I myself am an actual lovecraftian Mythos believer. But at the same time Ideas are very important as well it makes things going strong, and does not stay stale(sort of speak). But I get what your saying.
Awake........
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Post by ieuan on Oct 13, 2010 9:31:58 GMT -6
My ancestors the Celts lived life in the now, and their whole world view was their religion, their way of life, there was no separation, no object and subject, which I think in the modern world people separate themselves from their religion just in that way. I don't think The Cult of Cthulhu has a schism, the cult is a school of the fourth way, which means as Master Diabolus eluted too, cultist being at different levels of consciousness, which would perceive the Cult in different ways, I do not believe the Cult or Cultist have different world views, just we are each at different levels and at different points moving along the lines of the same work, and as Master Satanis has said perception is your reality. I could spend all day here learning from the Masters and my fellow cultist. Hail Cult of Cthulhu!!!
Ia Ia Cthulhu Flatgn!
Ieuan Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by egodiabolus on Oct 13, 2010 10:08:38 GMT -6
My ancestors the Celts lived life in the now, and their whole world view was their religion, their way of life, there was no separation, no object and subject, which I think in the modern world people separate themselves from their religion just in that way. I don't think The Cult of Cthulhu has a schism, the cult is a school of the fourth way, which means as Master Diabolus eluted too, cultist being at different levels of consciousness, which would perceive the Cult in different ways, I do not believe the Cult or Cultist have different world views, just we are each at different levels and at different points moving along the lines of the same work, and as Master Satanis has said perception is your reality. I could spend all day here learning from the Masters and my fellow cultist. Hail Cult of Cthulhu!!! Ia Ia Cthulhu Flatgn! Ieuan Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu Your mention that the ancient Celts made no distinction between their "religion" and their "reality" is precisely what I mean. There was no "belief" or "theory", only "truth", at least from their perspective. It is when the "truth" of one's convictions is challenged by better or different understanding that a divergence occurs. If the "truth" evolves with the influx of new information, then it is theoretical. If the "truth" denies new evidence in favor of old convictions, then it is what we now seem to refer to as "religious" and dogmatic.
I am glad you are digging the mild debate of ideas, and you are right, different levels of understanding lead to different perspectives. High Priest Venger Satanis has stated that he is a Man 6, thus it is to him that I, being on a lower tier, must come to in order for my understanding to evolve. Until I have understanding, I must continue to struggle with these concepts, working and re-working them. If this exchange serves others on different tiers themselves, then it is truly worth while.
I use "schism" perhaps too freely, as the Cult of Cthulhu is a fractured structure of evolving pieces moving toward a greater whole. Each of us, with our multiple "I"s, could be considered a "Cult of Cthulhu" unto ourselves. The two emerging camps; the spiritualist and the theorists... the "orthodox" and the "heretical", are still brothers, still unified in purpose, and still pursuing the Work and the greater glory of the Cult of Cthulhu.
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhatgn!
Ego Diabolus Heretical Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by andrewbloodworth on Oct 13, 2010 13:14:30 GMT -6
I would think everyone involved in the CoC would stand by beliefs. I mean isn't this a religion? Don't we worship the Old Ones? While we pursue other areas, like the Fourth Way and many others, our religion is based on belief in the Old Ones. Belief in Cthulhu, belief in the Mythos. Belief in Yog -Sothoth. As I understand, there is no evidence of such, no scientific proof as of yet. While we still use our my mind and try to figure out why this is that, CoC is fundamentally build on belief. Belief in A:O. Thats the core of CoC, isn't it? This is a religion, and religion has belief. One must have the other to exist. If this was only a study group then i would say you didn't really need any kind of belief to participate, but this isn't a study group. The forum falls into that category, but the forum represents CoC ,a religion. A religion built on belief on the A:O. While we pursue our own goals and goals of the CoC, I think we can't lose our basic belief on what the CoC is built on. I think whatever ideas you have on belief, I think belief is the reason you were first attracted to the CoC. Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn In the mist of all this debate, which is good. Its for the better of the CoC, but in the mist of this, I stand by my post. Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
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Post by boksmutant on Oct 13, 2010 14:20:24 GMT -6
A belief is like Wallace in Brave Heart. Uncompromising.
An idea is like de Bruce. Compromising.
Does this sum it up? de Bruce will definitely live longer & grow to be an even greater leader. But Wallace has that edge we dig. You Priest egodiabolis as one of our leaders is supposed to be compromising, have ideas & theories so as to protect us from dogma & other such restraints that belief brings. So that we will have guidance for the long haul. This is the point of a leader.
I like being a believer. But your not supposed to be.
So its funny to watch you argue. When all your really doing is proving to us how absolutely perfect you are to have as one of our leaders.
Sorry I had to resort to a movie. But i love Brave Heart.
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
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Post by ragnafa on Oct 13, 2010 22:40:24 GMT -6
I completely Agree With Boksmutanis on this full heartedly. Priest EgoDiabolis in my personal opinion is a leader like no other. Master Diabolis You are a leader and High Priest Of this Cult and I respect you greatly and you are in your own right from reading your post a master of the self. So with that I look forward to all your post. Whether we have Ideas or that we have strong beliefs, in a way even if you have Ideas those in my opinion are still a form of a belief, Correct me if I'm wrong. Awake......
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Post by andrewbloodworth on Oct 14, 2010 5:41:13 GMT -6
A belief is like Wallace in Brave Heart. Uncompromising. An idea is like de Bruce. Compromising. Does this sum it up? de Bruce will definitely live longer & grow to be an even greater leader. But Wallace has that edge we dig. You Priest egodiabolis as one of our leaders is supposed to be compromising, have ideas & theories so as to protect us from dogma & other such restraints that belief brings. So that we will have guidance for the long haul. This is the point of a leader. I like being a believer. But your not supposed to be. So its funny to watch you argue. When all your really doing is proving to us how absolutely perfect you are to have as one of our leaders. Sorry I had to resort to a movie. But i love Brave Heart. Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn! I also agree with you on this ,Priest Egodiabolis is doing his job as a leader. We for sure need that push/pull even if its in a debate. Awake! Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 14, 2010 12:56:08 GMT -6
I would guess that no two Men Number 6 are alike. That means your understanding of The Great Work will continue to evolve, but probably not in the exact same way that mine has.
As I'm sure you know, Ego Diabolus is a Priest of R'lyeh. I am the one and only High Priest. But I'm glad that you consider the entire Priesthood to be forged out of leadership material. As do I. And let us not forget the Cultist who started this thread, First Priest of R'lyeh Beast Xeno.
Just to whet your appetite, the Cthulhu Cult Priesthood is even now discussing a trichotomy of perception used for interpreting our emerald paradigm based on literal belief, symbolic ideas, and a combination of the two. This trichotomy shall be unveiled soon...
Hail Cthulhu!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
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