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Post by egodiabolus on Dec 17, 2009 22:15:10 GMT -6
I believe that one should never accept anything appearing outside your head with out a grain of doubt. Never be fully convinced of anything.
I believe that George Ivanovich Gurdjieff, the philosopher and mystic behind the Work which is the basis for the Fourth Way, was a human being. His physical appearance, based on images purported to be of the man, seem to conform to the physical parameters of what is generally considered human. His life story, based on the writings allegedly by his peers and himself, suggests a life that falls again within the parameters generally considered to be possible for a human being. It may have been a slightly extraordinary life, but not superordinarilly so. The man does not to appear to have flown under his own power. He did not level mountains with a glance. He did not breath under water.
I bring this up, my belief that Gurdjieff was human, not because his humanity is at all in question. He was a man with an idea; a very, very good idea, but he remained a man. This suggests to me first; that what he accomplished as a man can be accomplished be other men (and I apologize for the apparent sexist gender usage... you womb-men should not feel left out in this), and second; that despite his successful spiritual, mental, and physical evolution he remained bound to certain parameters that define being human.
Psychologist Abraham Maslow developed a hierarchy of human needs, which I believe is as good a description of the parameters of human requirements and limitations as any. This hierarchy is described as a pyramid, with each layer being required to support the layers beyond it. The first layer deals with basic physiological needs; breathing, food, water, sex, sleep, homeostasis (the ability to keep your insides in), and excretion (the ability to expel waste). If you cannot meet the needs of the first layer, you will die no matter how awakened you may be. Each successive layer is supported by or supports the Work as described by Gurdjieff. The second layer deals with a sense of safety; security of the body, resources, family, health, and personal morality (the behaviors which one determines to be acceptable or unacceptable based on real, rational, or aesthetic choices). The third layer describes a sense of belonging; friendship, family, sexual intimacy... The fourth layer deals with a sense of esteem; confidence, achievement, advancement, respect for others, respect by others... Finally, the fifth layer deals with self-actualization; personal morality, creativity, spontaneity, problem solving, lack of prejudice, acceptance of facts...
This pyramid is of course, a generalization and makes use of terms with fluid definitions. Respect, for example, may mean to one person an appreciation by others for one's accomplishments while for another the good sense of others to stay the fuck out of one's way. Also, one need not meet every part of a particular layer to achieve the requirements of the next (accept, arguably, the first layer). A person may not have a strong sense of family and still will be very creative, or a sense of family may not be in a positive sense.
Gurdjieff was (again, in my opinion) human, thus he was in one manner or another governed by Maslow's hierarchy. It is also this hierarchy which the system our society uses to manage the behavior of its individuals and is a means for better understanding of that system. For example, by controlling and limiting the quality, variety, and accessibility to food, a basis for control of a population can be established. The system could encourage individuals to spend their energies in the pursuit of non-essential items by creating the belief that the purchase of certain products leads to greater self-esteem or probability of sexual intimacy. While we can work to escape the dictates of the system, as Gurdjieff did, we do so as human beings and within the parameters of being human.
It is therefore my belief that the Work toward the awakening of self contributes toward our evolution, but that in this lifetime, and possibly for several lifetimes to come, we each will remain human and subject to Maslow's hierarchy regardless of our awakened state. Say what you want about the limits of my vision, but keep in mind that beyond the borders of my skull I consider all reality, including your opinion, potentially a figment of my imagination that may or may not be an effect of systematic behavioral control. Maslow's hierarchy also gives us insight as to the methods of our control as applied by the established social systems. The system controls individuals by providing cheap, fast means of achieving the human requirements of Maslow's hierarchy. We become addicted to these artificial and insubstantial "fixes" to our needs. We must understand that this system is hostile to our individuality; the system encourages drone mentality which is more conducive to its aims (self-perpetuation of the system) and denies individuality as individuality is conducive to aims opposed to the system (evolution and perpetuation of the self). The system seeks and encourages the crystallization of behavior; if we all do the same thing at prescheduled times with predictable results, it creates balance. In order to escape the system, we must be a force of imbalance, encouraging spontaneity and creativity.
This is not something that one can simply choose to do today and easily accomplish your ends. This is why Gurdjieff developed the Work, the process of self-evolution which leads to an awakened state, a state of active participation in your life free of the addictions encouraged by the system. The cornerstone of the Work, the process of awakening, is "suffering". This is not suffering in the sense of pain and emotional turmoil (although these states are potentially conducive to evolution), but rather electing to step out of our comfort zones and to press ourselves through work toward greater experiences. Being aware of the self takes work. Producing new expressions of creativity takes work. Keep in mind that one of Gurdjieff's basic processes of his Work was the use of sexual sublimation, practices which are not without there perks and could hardly be considered suffering in the pain and turmoil sense. We “suffer” by actively choosing to participate and endure our reality instead of passively allowing the general consensus and subjective reality formed by others determine our choices and patterns for us.
The system, the process of behavioral control layered upon us to deny our individuality, is the prison P.D. Ouspensky describes that we are each trying to escape from. Understand that while we wish to escape, others do not. While for us these systems are a prison, for others they are the safe barriers that secure the reality they prefer to an individually defined existence. The Work is not for everyone, and this presents a problem. The "prison" we experience is due to our discontent with the system. Those who are content with the system, consciously or not, will resist our efforts even when those efforts do not directly impact them. They depend on the stability of the system so much that any escape or evasion of the system impacts their own sense of security and well-being. This is why the Work is best as a coordinated effort between a number of people; the resistance literally numbers in the billions, but because that resistance is generally passive, it can be overcome by active effort.
We must also bare in mind that until we have awakened from false-consciousness or "escaped" the system, we are also a part of that system. Like a prison, the system has certain processes that can be taken advantage of by an astute prisoner. Our initial effort as individuals seeking escape from this system will involve exploiting these inherent weaknesses, a process of weakening the grip of the system upon each of us as individuals. The weaker the grip of the system upon our reality, the greater liberties we may take to further the process. This need not be a subversive process that encourages scorn and negative consequences from our less-awakened peers. Much of the systems control involves the creation of apathy in individuals, convincing them that there is just one possibility and no real choice in any action. We need to be inspiring, awesome or terrible, and awaken others, even temporarily, to alternate possibilities. This is not to benefit them, but to re-enforce our awareness of those possibilities in ourselves. The impact of our efforts is reflected and re-enforced by the reactions of those who witness those efforts. To do this, and to learn to create our own realities, we must learn how to manage and carefully dismantle the general consensus and subjective reality's hold upon us by exploiting the system's weaknesses and modifying its processes to meet our ends.
Where I am going with this long and wordy introduction is an explanation of how I am approaching the problem. This is a group effort, with each of us, my fellow inmates, approaching this problem from different angles, looking for the ways to weaken the system so that we may all enjoy more and more personal freedom. “Insane” is a good description of our ideal perspective in this process. “Sanity”, without going into too lengthy an etymological explanation, is a term which means “to be aligned with the King's blood”, or in other words in agreement with the systems of authority. We each have chosen to be insane, which I believe is a far better state of mind for anyone serious about awakening to their true potential. As this is a group effort, I think we should all be sharing precisely what it is we are doing to awaken. What steps have we taken toward wresting control of our reality away from the social systems? By giving a clear description, we may inspire others to copy our successful efforts, avoid some of our personal pitfalls, and may begin to see ways to re-enforce one-another's efforts.
One of the first things I did was shut off my television. Seriously. It has been almost 3 years since I watched an actual television show. I am clueless as to what is on television these days. When I watch television, it is something on DVD, usually a movie. I do allow myself one episode of the X-Files a week. I have the whole set on DVD. I am in Season 4. The effect of this is I have created an extreme reduction in my advertising diet. I am no longer influenced by consumer hypnosis. I never rush out and purchase the latest, greatest piece of cheap plastic crap. Another effect is that any conversation about what is on television leaves me right out. Some one says to me “Did you see that thing on TV last night? The girl with the ginormous tits solving crimes with the buff stud while goofing on their uptight boss and stuff?” When I respond, “No, I don't watch television” it is like I grew a second head. Suddenly this inane twit has nothing to share with me and I avoid wasting precious seconds discussing a fantasy world written for 12-14 year olds that has no real impact on my life. Not only do I have more time for my own pursuits since I choose not to live my life vicariously through the characters on the babble-box, I have also cut down on the number of idiots I have to tolerate on a regular basis. It is a win-win, and I highly recommend it.
I set goals. I am a big planner. I love schemes... trying to delve out the minutia of a small system and seeing how I can take advantage of it. I am a problem-solver. I typically start with 5 problems, 5 goals. No reason for the number 5 other than possibly my Illuminati influences. Usually there is one short-term goal, one long-term goal, one goal that I loathe but have to do anyway, one goal that is purely for fun, and one occult goal. Cycling out these goals keeps me moving in a direction that is hopefully leading toward my evolution.
Looking at the system, you may see as I have that money is its life-blood. Economics is quite literally a measure of power and influence in the general consensus and subjective reality. Every dollar spent is a vote, a message, an act of personal will influencing reality. I make every effort to treat every dollar spent in the manner it deserves. Dollars are typically earned by an individual trading their time to meet the needs of another individual. A wage-slave is basically selling their life in exchange for this paper symbol of power in the system. This is why there is such emphasis on your earnings being carefully monitored, so the system can do what is required to keep too much power from pooling with any individual who might not be conducive to the process; like us insane folks. There is an underground economy, although the majority of the individuals involved in it are vampires created by the system who's addiction has shifted from all those things that please the typical drone to money itself, just providing the system with a more direct means of control. This applies equally to drug-dealers as it does to CEOs.
My idea is simple. First, keep in mind that no matter what you do, from lowly fry-cook to god-on-earth tattoo-artist, you work for yourself. You might wear a McDonald's uniform, but you work for You Inc. You are an independent contractor who sells your time performing certain tasks for another. You leverage you earnings and benefits against skill sets you developed. Working for somebody else sucks, so why not work for yourself no matter what you do?
Next, pay yourself first. The social system is making this more and more difficult, but make it happen. You're a wage-slave, even as an independent contractor of You Inc, but you can potentially buy your freedom someday and find yourself with one less process from the system tightly wrapped around your throat. Treat it just like any other mandatory “voluntary” social obligation like rent or utilities.
Speaking of rent and utilities... as the head mucky-muck of You Inc, take into account the few bits of good advice to come from what has been taught to you in the social-order training camps, run your financial household like a business. Plan ahead. Budget your funds, taking into account all costs. Work toward at least a 3 month “oh-shit” fund (oh-shit! I told my boss what I REALLY think of him and now I am out of a job. I have at least 90 days of bills saved up so I can come up with a good story about it for my next contractual negotiation with a future client of Me Inc.). Having a 3 month “oh-shit” fund allows you to develop a new kind of money; “fuck-you” money (fuck you, man. Do you know how much cash I have in the bank? I don't need to take this shit!). The volume on everything at a regular job, and arguably in life, gets turned down really low when the system can't threaten you with immediate destitution.
Now, this is the big step. Create an alternate source of income. Unless being a fry-cook is the reason you believe that you exist, there is probably something else you are passionate about. You probably spend most of your time when your not fulfilling your corporate obligations at You Inc. doing whatever it is already. Find a way to market it. Do you collect toys? Start buying more than just what you need and sell them to other collectors a year after they go off the market. Blog about the damn things. Make videos with your toys like they are puppets or use stop animation. Like horror films? Get a really good underground 'zine going. Put up a web-site reviewing horror films. Host a horror fan-club in your city. Like the to masturbate in the bathtub while listening to boy-bands? Put on a luchador mask and make short spooge films... some sick bastards will pay to see that on the internet. You give me a hobby, quirk, or vice and 24 hours and I can tell you a way to market it. By creating your own source of income from something you enjoy, you become less dependent on the system for your needs, free up more of your time for yourself, and potentially get paid to work on your personal evolution.
Finally, with money, I like to invest in the efforts of others. I try to purchase goods and services from those who I know are engaged in the same processes that I am, those seeking greater control of their own realities. Something like throwing bread on water, but instead of soggy bread I get something interesting and not often seen by others.
So, enough about money. Psychologists suggest that who we are originates from two distinct sets of influence; genetics and environment. Genetics, for the most part, cease to play an active role in influencing your behavior soon after your physical formation is initiated. Whatever ticking time-bomb awaits in your genetic future has pretty much already been established. Environment, however, continues to bombard you with influence. As human beings, one of our immediate evolutionary advantages is the greater ability to determine our environment. I am trying to awaken, to become a true reality engineer. I start with my own space. Taking a cue from Anton LaVey, I try to create an artificial environment that is conducive to my goals and aesthetic murmurings. This does not mean filling my home with a collection of odd pieces of plastic crap (see the above discussion about money). Instead, I work to make everything in my home my own, changing it or modifying it to become mine or creating it whole-cloth. I try to take an active role in determining my environment, from the quality, quantity, and color of light to the sound design. I have a long way to go on this, but it is a process.
I practice magic. I perform rituals, experiment with magical processes, and explore alternate sciences. I consider all efforts an experiment, looking for those things that work for me and chucking out what does not work as useless for my purposes. I embrace the ideas of chaos magic. I am drawn toward Discordian concepts. The appeal of the Cthulhu Mythos to me is that of a “new” set of fairy-tales which hint at a wonderful, horrible truth and encourage the explorer to be drawn into them. Through magic, I indulge my sense of wonder.
I practice. I work on being aware of myself, my environment, what I am doing and where I am at. I try to develop an objective mind, to see things from a perspective outside myself. I work on giving full attention to more than one task at a time without diluting the effectiveness of either process. I try to draw as much from every moment as possible. It's hard, but then again I believe that the difficulty suggests I am going in the correct direction.
If you're still reading this, in conclusion I would like to remind you, my fellow inmates, that I am not saying any of this is what anyone else should do. Instead, I would like to read what others are doing, and how it is working for them. My little victories have begun to earn some semblance of freedom, but I am no where near where I would like to be. If something I have written here has inspired you, wonderful, but I want this to be the beginning of a conversation, not an end.
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Post by sin on Dec 18, 2009 7:53:34 GMT -6
Truly, a fantastic post.
I identify with many ideas you have laid out here. And, I'm constantly voicing these ideas to others as a bitch-slap across the face, because I see it all the time. Contentment with the system that imprisons them.
Ok, so on with what I'm actually doing, and striving towards.
I agree with the television issue, I've been limiting my tv watching to specific shows I enjoy - mostly truly crime, and forensic shows. So, I DVR them. When I'm ready to watch them, I can fast-forward past any of the advertising crap I don't need to watch. And, I recognize that the tv empires engineer these recording features to include the advertising crap, vs. allowing the end-user who pays for the service to simply record the show minus the ads.
I also follow a goals list that I outlined for myself in high school, and have expanded as time passes. Granted, some of those goals have changed, but they remain in my line of sight stored in my subconscious. Things like buying a house by age 30, and reaching certain landmarks in my own development. We all have a story to tell, I am not my story. I could have very well ended up a worthless meat-bag attributed to environmental conditions of my up-bringing, but I would not allow it nor were my developmental aspirations negotiable with those pesky I's. I challenge myself all the time, it's detrimental to my existence. I also use tools available to me, and use them often. I back-slide from time to time, but the important thing is I recognize that and get back on track - and fast. I put what I could label negative attributes of my own psyche to work for me, rather than against me.
I create. Constantly create, and I'm not running to the damn craft store to spend my money on all that useless plastic shit either. I'm picking through trash. I'm reusing stuff, I'm making powerful art out of otherwise useless garbage. And, I'm innovative. I network with other artists and crafters, and we have a meg-shift swap meet for supplies. It's like a poker game. I have this bag of beads, and I'll raise you a barrel full of fabric remnants for your 12 canvases to paint on. Stuff like that. I also take advantage of whats available to me, free-cycle is a great resource for free stuff to re-tool into art. One man's trash is another man's treasure.
Some of my creations I sell for money, but its mostly for myself. My house is a living-breathing work of art. Every room, every nook and cranny is an extension of myself. I spend the most time there, and I want to - not because I have to. I grow there. So, I have to provide nutrients so that I can grow strong. It's also a place where I can delude myself into believing, I can be free from the system of enslavement. I know I'm part of that system, as I pay my mortgage and utilities to run that house. Slowly but surely I'm liberating my mind, so that I can come up with ideas to live free and enjoy more personal liberties.
Money, oy...always an issue. I'm a single parent, so it's extremely difficult to save a dime. I practice the 'sock savings'. It's my "Oh shit!" fund. I have a few bucks, I shove it in the sock. the sock goes into a drawer and I forget about it. I do this so often, that when I need that fund, I'm often surprised by the amount. "Oh shit!" seems to come up a lot though, that Murphy sure has a funny sense of humor. At the moment, my sock is empty. I'm contending with over 17K in damage to my house due to the Nor'Easter that hit VA in November. That's something I need to keep on track with, fuck-you money. I'm going to make a conscious effort. Thank you for reminding me, because I forget myself.
Shaking things up, waking others. Since I was a child, I've led study and discussion groups. I need to explore ideas, with others I can think outside of myself. Examine other perspectives and challenge them. I also need to be challenged. It also gives me an opportunity to be social, so I don't end up a hermit. This could easily happen, because I can't stand most people. It's the herd mentality, the concern with trivial matters, and personal drama. People have a lot of baggage, and they often want to unload it on you. I hold them in contempt for their attempt to unload it on me. So, the discussions and study groups allows for social interaction that is somewhat more focused. I have a 'Friday Circle Jerk' at my house. A diverse group of people show up, I have a theme, everyone contributes a discussion topic in-line with that theme, and we discuss it as a group. Each topic goes into 'Pandora's Box' and the topics are picked out like a lottery. Every person has a chance to comment, and we discuss it. Debates are common, but it's all in the nature of gaining perspective. I do this every Friday in the Spring/Summer, and every other in Fall/Winter. I run the grotto of Azathoth, we meet each Thursday. We discuss and test-drive ideas together as a group. Spider-webbing occurs, in that grotto members talk about the theology, and their personal experiences with others. They share the know-how, and it affects the people we know in our sphere, and perhaps even has a ripple effect outward.
The Work. A constant focus and developing my own exercises to break conditioning and maintaining awareness. I do a lot of ritual and trance work, with specific realizations in mind. My mind is often chaotic, I'm all over the place with my hand in many pots. My thoughts race, and I have very little 'down time', I'm always doing something. Sometimes I have to force myself to slow down, and just take a moment to evaluate my progress. Otherwise, I'm just running around in circles, getting very accomplished. Then, I make adjustments as needed.
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 18, 2009 13:07:28 GMT -6
Meh...
And let me follow that up with an emphatic NOT! Yes, I loved your post, Jason. Wow, indeed. Inspiring and thought provoking! I'll be commenting and putting my own three cents in another post to this thread, but for now...
You should really copy/paste this into a blog post for Cthulhu-Cult.com (the only change I would make is altering 'accept' into 'except' in the 5th paragraph).
Turning one's TV off is a great solution. Not for everyone, mind you, but I think it would go a long ways towards helping the majority of people tune-out of consensus reality. I myself watch quite a bit of TV, however. I'm a huge fan of the following shows and I don't feel even a little bit guilty for watching them.
It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia
Damages
Lost
V
Two and a Half Men
Big Bang Theory
Secret Girlfriend
Dexter
Entourage
The Office
Not to mention old scifi TV shows like Land Of The Lost, The Tomorrow People, Doctor Who, Red Dwarf, Blake's 7, Twilight Zone, etc... some that have recently become defunct like the Sarah Connor Chronicles, Battlestar Galactica (most of the time), Seinfeld, and a few others I'm less proud of. ;D Yeah, I'm a TV and movie fiend, but most people should probably steer clear of the magic box altogether.
Moving on, if any Cultist blows through their "oh shit fund" or some other financial disaster occurs, there should be some kind of safety net. Assuming an active member of our religion can abide by my rules and isn't afraid to put in daily effort, then I'd be open to letting one, up to a small handful, of individuals crash at my house for a couple weeks. And if the situation isn't untenable, then maybe for as long as a couple months.
That all depends on the individual, but I'd like Cultists to know that if the bottom suddenly drops out of their world, there's a place for them to go. Staying with the High Priest won't be a picnic. I will put you to work, be sure of that. However, it's an option preferable to living in the streets.
Lastly, I'm interested in the bit you wrote about Gurdjieff and sublimating the sexual center. I'm a bit more familiar with Ouspensky's "version" of the 4th way than Gurdjieff's. However, I did read a book about him a year or two ago. The author wrote that Gurdjieff had a voracious sexual appetite, entertained many women who were both involved in the Work and not involved. According to this source, Gurdjieff fathered children with some of these females.
Yes, Gurdjieff was just a man, and I believe his humanness makes him all the more fascinating.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by LostSoul on Dec 18, 2009 13:42:10 GMT -6
Agreed, Venger...There are just some things which we need to keep our balance in our daily lives...And, It's Always Sunny is one such balance...
Still, agreed; fantastic post.
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Post by beastx on Dec 18, 2009 14:01:23 GMT -6
This thread certainly deserves a response mirroring its reprovingly provocative nature. I want you both to know I'm impressed by the level of introspect demonstrated in those two posts. Sadly I'll have to struggle to try to extend the same depth in this reply.
I think Jason's analysis in possibly as close to (far more eloquently) expressing my interpretation of my 33 years of observation and interaction with consensus reality. I too turned off the T.V. about 6 years ago. I do usually follow one show and that changes as my interest in the program dwindles. Nothing seems to consistently produce substance of even an entertaining value for any more than a brief period. Movies though are in my opinion a fantastic way to let your imagination free-flow. I tend to enjoy the period of escapism and typically will be reinvigorated afterward.
As a child there were a few events and some concepts that were introduced to me that have built up to enable me as an adult to always be in a slightly heightened state. Truth be told it can be work just making myself acknowledge certain remedial environmental conditions.
Observation can be a powerful tool as we all know. It has been my observation that consensus reality (The Machine) wants us to believe that money has a "life-blood" quality to it. Magically it can be the cure all and the answer to escaping from our current confines. Even though it does inherently have the value of blood, sweat, and tears attached to it, that is merely a facade. Truth is; the power of money lies in its deception of the mass. So long as we continue to recognize it as being the only or among the most important tools of power, it continues to hold its grip firmly upon our conscious. See the problem with money is that it IS MADE and more can always be made. Interesting to observe that just as the price of gas fluctuates, so does the value of our labor.
What I mean is, if I make $5 per hour and this is a constant. Because the actual value of the dollar can be manipulated (in many different manners), one day I can buy a gallon of milk on that hour and the next I can't. There are many conditions which effect the value of an hour of my labor (i e, price fluctuation, currency trade, and demand). Without taking away from the mandatory participation of slave labor, I try to participate as little as possible in the materialistically entranced paradox. In short I don't believe that even if we had all the money in the world, it would be all that useful of a tool in shifting The Machine. I've been pondering the idea that perhaps conducting behavior outside of the normally anticipated uses of money could be away to offset its grip. I'm not offering anything of value at this point with the notion. I do wonder the plausible effects of it though. What if everyone suddenly just wiped their ass with money... literally?
Insanity... Indeed. I have lived my entire life with this "sense of purpose". For a long time, I was convinced it is a normal thing to feel. Now I realize that's the madness... If I believe I am Awakening then in fact, I am. If I believe I have a destiny, it can manifest. The problem isn't becoming awakened, it is staying awake. Humans are creatures of mimicry and in understanding that, we come to the core of the problem, or atleast that is how I see it. We need to see how to exist "Awakened" to be able to mimic it. I think it was Gurdjieff's opinion that the human spirit was divided into two categories essence and personality. Essence being the core entity, and personality being the learned interaction with existence. Perhaps the shortcomings of mastering of personal reality falls into that basic division. However I can offer only the proposal of it without much conclusive data.
For those that know me personally they understand "where I am" alot better than the rest of you. But for the purpose of giving you all a model of my current efforts here are my current activities.
This is my 33rd year and in irony it is also a period of magickal rebirth for me. In observation of that I've decide to take an approach to my overall development which I believe will ultimately lead to my development being catapulted to notable level. The method in which I am using relies on a principal usually used on a physical level. Instead of trying to work in small but intense spurts with long periods of rest between them. I am trying to work in long and intense spurts with a short period of rest between them.
I'm actively studying;
- Chaos (theory, magick, element)
- 4th way
- NLP
- Thelma
- Abramelin
Intend to continue to increase the materials that I cover on a daily basis by 40% weekly and so far have had good success in it. I've been using this ratio in every aspect of my life. Constantly striving to reach just a little further.
I'm sure as I think of more I will post it but I want to see what is said beyond the posts, I've read to this point.
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Post by sin on Dec 21, 2009 8:10:43 GMT -6
For me, I just need the bare-bones...the skeleton, and I'll put meat on it. It's not my style to mimic another man's ideas. I suppose, that's why I wrote the short essay "The Fourth Way Simplified". A lot of people had been asking me to break it down in 100 words or less, and that's just my take on it. I got a lot of feedback. People smacking themselves in the forehead..."Finally! Now I know what the hell it all means and how I can use it!"
Venger introduced me to The Fourth Way, and at his recommendation I read Ouspenksy first then Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff takes more of an esoteric path, while deeply philosophical in nature; further obscures the basic ideas to work with. Ouspensky gets through all the hoo-ha to the basics, something I prefer. Gurdjieff will philosphize for hours, before telling you how to turn the power on. While Ouspensky will turn the power on, then tell you how the thing works.
Example, if Gurdjieff held an opinion about identity, it's his opinion and not an idea I would hold for myself. I evaluate opinions, but do my own observing, research and draw my own conclusions about things. It's sort of like stopping and asking for directions, you might follow the advice of the director but no two people are going to journey the path in the same way.
Crowley was a passion of mine for years, I loved the poetic realizations he made about the world around him, and his role in it. Thelema on the other hand, I found to be restricting and dogmatic. I've read nearly every work by the olde Crowe, but the most profound of all is Liber AL. It is the only work I found to be that slap in the forehead. And I still maintain agreement with many of the ideas it holds, I use it as an allegory to get through to people and to myself. I remind myself every day, that every man and woman is a star. Make me under the stars!
The point is, it really doesn't matter what you read, watch or consume - if it compels you to propel forward towards your personal goals. Use it. If it keeps your eye on the prize, use it regularly. And, if it reminds you when you forget - use it and examine it with others. It just might stay with them, as it has stayed with you. We all have our own tastes, and getting everyone to like the same flavor is an absurd notion in my book. Why do some people prefer vanilla over chocolate?
This is why I must ask myself over and over again...what does it mean to be awakened, to be alive? Would I recognize it if it happened? If I've had moments of awakening, why did I go back to sleep? For many years I have been making a conscious effort, and yet? I am still a slave to the machine. Monkey wrench after monkey wrench I throw, but there are so many workers that repair the machine, keep the squeeky wheels oiled and running.
So, rather than get completely frustrated and throwing my hands up at the whole thing, I maintain a focus on immediate goals. I share this idea with my grotto mates, reminding them that while it seems like there's so much to be done, and it can be overwhelming...look at each victory as ticks on a list. The list might seem long, with no end - but what if you did nothing? A list, and conscious effort is better than living a slave until you die.
I remind myself that my time is running out, and I won't live forever. I'll be 36 on Jan 3rd. And it seems like yesterday that I was only a teenager, daydreaming about my future.
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Post by Sarak G'hash on Dec 21, 2009 8:49:13 GMT -6
For me, I just need the bare-bones...the skeleton, and I'll put meat on it. It's not my style to mimic another man's ideas. I suppose, that's why I wrote the short essay "The Fourth Way Simplified". A lot of people had been asking me to break it down in 100 words or less, and that's just my take on it. I got a lot of feedback. People smacking themselves in the forehead..."Finally! Now I know what the hell it all means and how I can use it!" Venger introduced me to The Fourth Way, and at his recommendation I read Ouspenksy first then Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff takes more of an esoteric path, while deeply philosophical in nature; further obscures the basic ideas to work with. Ouspensky gets through all the hoo-ha to the basics, something I prefer. Gurdjieff will philosphize for hours, before telling you how to turn the power on. While Ouspensky will turn the power on, then tell you how the thing works. Example, if Gurdjieff held an opinion about identity, it's his opinion and not an idea I would hold for myself. I evaluate opinions, but do my own observing, research and draw my own conclusions about things. It's sort of like stopping and asking for directions, you might follow the advice of the director but no two people are going to journey the path in the same way. Crowley was passion of mine for years, I loved the poetic realizations he made about the world around him, and his role in it. Thelema on the other hand, I found to be restricting and dogmatic. I've read nearly every work by the olde Crowe, but the most profound of all is Liber AL. It is the only work I found to be that slap in the forehead. And I still maintain agreement with many of the ideas it holds, I use it as an allegory to get through to people and to myself. I remind myself every day, that every man and woman is a star. Make me under the stars! The point is, it really doesn't matter what you read, watch or consume - if it compels you to propel forward towards your personal goals. Use it. If it keeps your eye on the prize, use it regularly. And, if it reminds you when you forget - use it and examine it with others. It just might stay with them, as it has stayed with you. We all have our own tastes, and getting everyone to like the same flavor is an absurd notion in my book. Why do some people prefer vanilla over chocolate? This is why I must ask myself over and over again...what does it mean to be awakened, to be alive? Would I recognize it if it happened? If I've had moments of awakening, why did I go back to sleep? For many years I have been making a conscious effort, and yet? I am still a slave to the machine. Monkey wrench after monkey wrench I throw, but there are so many workers that repair the machine, keep the squeeky wheels oiled and running. So, rather than get completely frustrated and throwing my hands up at the whole thing, I maintain a focus on immediate goals. I share this idea with my grotto mates, reminding them that while it seems like there's so much to be done, and it can be overwhelming...look at each victory as ticks on a list. The list might seem long, with no end - but what if you did nothing? A list, and conscious effort is better than living a slave until you die. I remind myself that my time is running out, and I won't live forever. I'll be 36 on Jan 3rd. And it seems like yesterday that I was only a teenager, daydreaming about my future. I can totally relate to what you are saying! I just turned 54 myself and with doctors considering refusing Medicare patients that cuts my time to get things accomplished down. I'm busting ass to get my gift shop open and rarely spend any of my extra money on myself although i did indulge yesterday and bought myself a new rod and reel since we have a lake here. i love fishing and that's also my main meditating time. But i too like to consider others view points but prefer to draw my own conclusions about things. That's what makes up a personal belief system that works for each individual! What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for all.
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 21, 2009 11:56:13 GMT -6
True, Ouspensky has a different approach than Gurdjieff. Both have value, but one might resonate stronger with a certain type of person. Ouspensky is certainly easier to read and decipher; however Gurdjieff's road is winding, probably more scenic, yet goes just a little farther.
That's one thing I want to do in the next few months is read more on Gurdjieff and his version of the Fourth Way.
Tastes are variable, but nutrition is a constant. We can consume 2000 calories a day in potato chips or 2000 calories in lean protein, complex carbohydrates, and healthy fats. Both will fill you up and keep you alive, but the latter is more beneficial.
Likewise, we can fill ourselves with A influences, B influences, and C influences. The impressions which come from C influences will be the most nutritious.
Yes, we must do what we can do today. Tomorrow will take care of itself.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by sin on Dec 21, 2009 12:03:11 GMT -6
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 21, 2009 13:25:06 GMT -6
Ok, enough is enough.
You've got your own opinions, Cora'Sahn. It's plain to see that you're also very strong willed and outspoken. I've known this about you from the beginning and think all that is great stuff. On the hand, you keep trying to build this overly dramatic conflict between us, and I don't know why.
Though I try to do it whenever it seems reasonable, it's quite tiresome to qualify every single fucking thing I say with, "By the way, this is just my opinion". I make it very clear that I'm speaking for myself and that my beliefs aren't necessarily shared with everyone else.
So, I'm not asking for agreement or for people to hold their tongue when they have an opposing view on a subject... but how about a little god damn support?!? How about considering the possibility of meeting me half way sometimes or disagreeing without trying to throw it in my face or even trying to see things from my point of view every once in awhile.
If something's going on, I wish you would tell me. If you're not happy about stuff, let's have a conversation. However, these days it feels more like passive aggressive acting out because you didn't get the exact piece of candy you wanted. As I mentioned, this is not an isolated incident. I've even asked a few other Cultists in private about what's going on with you recently. They concurred, that something might be bothering you.
Dissension can be a valuable tool on occasion, but you seem to be turning it into a permanent position. I'd like for you to stay with us, with me, and keep contributing because I find you a great asset, Cora'Sahn. Your vision may be radically different from mine. That's cool, we can use that if your individual concepts are self-supporting. But if what you really want is out, then I'm not going to crawl around on the floor and beg you to stay. If you're looking for the door, it's right over there.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by sin on Dec 21, 2009 13:48:00 GMT -6
You imagine this conflict, its all in your head.
Because I have my own opinions, you see this as a personal conflict with you? I direct the question back to you, what is going on with you?
Here I thought this was an open discussion about the subject.
[shrugs]
Enough is enough? Give me a break, talk about melo-dramatic.
[sigh]
Your wisdom is blinding, truly.
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Post by sin on Dec 21, 2009 13:56:03 GMT -6
I'd also like to add, that I've been very supportive - above and beyond, in fact. Your post is very Freudian, and it screams some other underlying reason for your point of view. I would think, that as a Fourth Way student, you would have been widely aware of the tells you give away.
I am deeply disappointed by your reaction to my post.
I would also like to offer, that if there was something you misunderstood you could have asked for clarification, or taken it to private message. Apparently, you believed this to be an attack upon your person, at which point you felt the need to make a public display of yourself.
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 21, 2009 15:53:40 GMT -6
Really?
Yes, sometimes it can be.
Not an attack, just continued lack of support.
You post your comments to my writing on the forum, out in the open. So, if I have a problem with something you've written, then it stands to reason I would make my thoughts known here.
There has been something altogether disagreeable regarding a number of your recent posts. Your opposition feels like an attack... if not an outright challenge to my authority as High Priest. At least that's how it appears to me. Again and again, it seems to keep happening, and finally I'm not going to let it slide any more. But first, I talked to a couple forum members about it... just to see if it was all in my head. I would love to hear people's opinion on the matter here and now. Especially, after you wrote this, Cora'Sahn...
Why would I value the insight and advice from other Cultists? Because it's not just about me. It's about the entire Cult of Cthulhu.
Outspoken and aggressive is fine and dandy when tempered with tact, consideration, and solidarity. This path isn't easy for any of us, and I daresay mine is unfathomably treacherous. I'm not looking for perfect harmony; however, I have most assuredly earned a certain level of respect from all of you.
At times, I have a problem with your attitude. Our perceptions of that might not meet eye to eye, but the feelings I get from reading some of your posts directed towards me are unmistakable. I felt like it needed to be addressed, so I'm addressing it. If I'm way off base, which does happen from time to time, then I'm sure other forum members will come to your defense.
I believe, Fourth Way Master is probably more accurate.
How do we resolve this? Work on your attitude, presentation, and blunt contrariness. I don't know anyone who favors individualism more than I do, but to use a horribly cliched saying... there's no I in team.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by nixx on Dec 21, 2009 20:11:43 GMT -6
After reading the entire thread, I'm wondering where this digressed into a pissing contest between Venger & Cora'Sahn. Venger, I have a deep respect for what you present on this forum & in all your writings; as I've expressed to you, these writings have literally changed my entire life focus. Cora'Sahn, I have the same opinion of your work here; your writing is always insightful & always provocative. I will say that, though I'm fairly new, I agree that there seems to be a tension between the two of you: whenever Venger puts something out there, Cora'Sahn challenges it in some way. It can be on as little a point as the usage of a word or as large as the spirit in which an entire post was written. I believe in many ways this is good as it promotes deeper thought & examination of a subject, but I also don't get why it seems to be every post. I believe I understand your intent, Cora'Sahn, & please correct me if I'm incorrect; you are working to keep Venger accountable & make sure what he is presenting stays in the spirit of the Work that we are all here to accomplish, but like was stated about Gurdjieff by Egodiabolus at the beginning of the thread, though we may be seeking waking consciousness, we are still human & entitled to present an opinion without having it thrown under the microscope every single time.
Venger, I do think that if you took particular offense to what was stated here & in other places, in my opinion, it should have been handled more privately. I understand that you make it a point not to hold a policy of secrecy with anything going on within the Cult & I applaud you for that, but as this has become a personal issue, I feel it should have been handled privately between you & Cora'Sahn as handling it here establishes an environment of opposition that is unnecessary. Yes, we are working to raise ourselves above things like that, but the Work is on going & we are not all perfect yet.
Let me state for the record this is only my opinion & it is not meant as an attack on either of you; I merely state my observations as my feedback was requested. If either of you takes offense, I will be happy to discuss it with you so we can all move on. I believe in what we are all trying to do here & I don't want to see us get derailed with slights real or imagined. Let's work this out & move on.
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Post by sin on Dec 22, 2009 7:09:56 GMT -6
Given the consensus seems to be, that I challenge Venger personally - I will address that so we can move on.
What is being perceived as a personal challenge, is simply my examination of all things. If Venger happens to be the person addressing the particular subject - those thoughts are examined. What doesn't seem to be apparent, is my ideas are also challenged - and I welcome that. I certainly don't take it personally. I appreciate the feedback and it aids me in examining my own ideas (having outside perspective).
In this particular topic, I responded to the topic with my own thoughts. Venger dissected my post, and I examined what he had to say. The only thought I disagreed with, was how the idea of 'nutrient' was being addressed. In my own mind, this is highly subjective. One person may draw personal gnosis from the great philosophers such as Socrates, Plato, Nietzsche, etc. and this could be considered 'nutrient' to the cultist, and another may draw personal gnosis from say Comic Books, and it be considered 'junk food' by those that don't understand *how* the cultist could draw from something they can't relate to (and vice versa).
This idea delivers a message, that only *this* is nutrient and *that* is junk food. And this is what I disagree with. Am I not free to disagree with an idea? It doesn't really matter who posed the idea, so it's not a personal challenge to Venger - but to the idea itself.
If it seems as though it's Venger that is under scrutiny, I can only offer that perhaps this is a perception issue. I converse with any and all users, willing. We may not always agree. Many have disagreed with my ideas, and that's ok. I'm completely fine with that. I don't get my feelings hurt when people disagree with me. And, it's not as if my presence here has changed, or I've grown a new identity. This is my communication style. If it's disruptive, then I'll make adjustments but I will not sugar coat everything so it's easier to swallow. Forgive me if I believed that those of a left-hand slant, didn't need hand-holding and sugar sweet syrup all over everything.
La'Iyath, I appreciate your input and I don't take this as a personal attack. It's good stuff.
Self-awareness is key, in The Work. So, I'll make a mental note to examine these things without giving the impression they are a personal challenge. Asking for clarification, goes a long way. Surely we are capable of conversing on an adult level, without allowing the topic to de-evolve into a personal pissing match. This was not my intent. I simply didn't agree with an idea, and now it's a melo-drama over nothing.
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 22, 2009 15:15:46 GMT -6
I'm glad you came forward to speak your mind, La'Iyath.
Hand holding and sugar coating are unnecessary. That's not what I'm asking for.
Constructive discussion does not usually begin with an outspoken stance of opposition. Constructive discussion is about building a kind of unity. Coming together, realizing common ground, working to evolve a forward looking agenda.
Let me state this for the record. From now on, I would appreciate it if everyone on the forum who disagrees with me could respectfully state your perspective while trying to see things from my point of view.
Disagreement is not the issue, attitude is. A spirited exchange can be handled a few different ways. Start with the fact that I know whereof I speak, and if it seems misguided that's because of a breach in your understanding... not my wisdom. This may be a lot for some of you to bare. Yet, I am the leader. The CoC is my show, and I have to run it as the A:O have instructed and how I deem fit. I've been charged with commanding the big picture, the fine details, and everything in between. I make mistakes; after all, I'm only human. Nevertheless, responsibility falls to the High Priest. I am the way.
For example, if you had stated the above to me originally instead of saying how you disagree (or strongly disagree) with my post, then all this could have been avoided. Do you think that occasionally, you can be your own worst enemy? It's not just Cora'Sahn who jumps down my throat in protest, but recently I've felt a lack of support from her in particular - which is more visible and disheartening to me personally because of her seniority within the CoC. If that's not the case, then I'm overjoyed. I don't want anyone to feel they have to gush over my endeavors, but frequent criticism isn't going to help us win the war. Something to think about...
Regarding the above quoted passage, since it's already been brought up, and to further my analogy... certain essays by Plato might be considered chicken breast while certain comic book titles or issues could be likened to fish. Both separate food types, yet similar in nutritional value. Chicken or fish? Does it matter? No, not really. This is the relativistic taste variable I mentioned a few posts ago.
I think we can agree that an Archie comic book would generally be more Influence A while a comic by Grant Morrison has the potential of being closer to Influence C. Just as a random short story contained in Reader's Digest would be unlikely to compare with a short story by H.P. Lovecraft. It is a matter of substance, essence. What are the impressions generated by a particular piece? Do they promote consciousness or continued sleep?
Likewise, the end doesn't always justify the means. If anyone wants an example of that, then I'd be happy to provide one.
Getting back to the matter at hand, please give me the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Cult matters. I don't make this stuff up on the fly. I have been steeped in this paradigm for a long time, was called by the A:O to found this religion of ours. And not for nothing, so I would appreciate Cultists cutting me some slack when they encounter a concept which seems alien to their way of thinking.
Now, hopefully, we can go back to business as usual with a new appreciation for forum protocol. Thanks for everyone's patience. Can we get this thread back on track? I'm sure we can.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by sin on Dec 22, 2009 15:37:02 GMT -6
And this is exactly what I stated, quoting the exact bit I disagreed with.
"I disagree.
This is how you are conceptualizing my post. What you consider junk-food, another man might consider nutrition. My point was, that it doesn't really matter what the influence is, so long as the end-result is the desired result; and is beneficial to the cultist and his/her individual needs.
This post reads like 'The Fourth Way' is the only one and true way. And I whole-heartedly disagree with that line of thinking. Granted, it's very cult-like to have the leader say "Well you must think like this, to accomplish this..." But, I don't view the CoC as any ordinary cult.
It allows for individual interpretation and usage. "
So because I began with 'I disagree' this is why you believe I'm attacking you?
And, I might add I ended with a compliment.
And where exactly is my attitude so off that it warranted such a post from you? My response after that, was in direct response to your accusations and your 'attitude' as you put it.
[/b][/quote]
And where is this being called into question? Again, because I disagreed with something you said in response to something I posted? You did dissect my comment which by the way is about INDIVIDUAL TACTICS.
Hardly, this could have been avoided if you asked for an elaboration or clarification rather than having a knee-jerk reaction to my viewpoint.
Transference. I show you a mirror Venger - perhaps you are your own.
So I'm being lumped in with 'them' and I have been nothing but supportive - as a matter of fact, you send me private messages to that affect and then yesterday it's this. So, you having me scratching my head. Just because I disagree with an idea you hold, doesn't mean I don't support the Cult or you as it's leader. And by the by, you take stabs at my ideas all the time. I don't cry about it, I don't think you are not supportive of your cultists. I just chalk it up to a difference of opinion and move on.
It's not, hence I maintain this conflict is both imagined and perceived.
My post was about the end, not the means - yet you picked it apart like I didn't have an idea what I was talking about and you had 'The Way'. This is what I mean VS, self-examine. You are not widely aware that you were the catalyst for how this topic ended up. Which is why I tried to maintain the topic by stating 'My point is, it really doesn't matter what you use....'
What does personal opinion have to do with cult matters? Is there some kind of internal power struggle going on with your A:O that we are not privy to? I mean seriously, what the hell are you talking about?
Perhaps, perhaps not. Based on this post, I need to hear your thoughts on my comments before I decide.
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Post by chelle on Dec 22, 2009 15:38:26 GMT -6
*******************************hmm weird i think my post just got erased i responded with this before Venger so here it is again*************************
I think this whole post got out of hand. MOMMY AND DADDY STOP FIGHTING IN FRONT OF THE CHILDREN! I think its time to remind Venger that even though some people might not see exactly the same way you do does not mean that they are out to get you. If you surround yourself with a bunch of "yes men" who only think that you are completely right at all times then how are you going to evolve and grow? You are human and prone to make mistakes and have faults for example you watch "Two and Half Men" and just started a fight with one of your Wizards out of nowhere.
Also the whole nutrient line was a bad one.... too corny for my tastes and trust me I can make some corny jokes. Please don't cry or try to attack me for not agreeing with you.
So with that said; Things that I do to better myself: I have learned a lot of things from my parents that I didn't realize until now and I have more conversations with them about faith and beliefs and how it gets people into trouble. Thrift stores and flea markets are your friend. Just because it is new doesn't mean that it is better. I love finding items, altering them and decorating my apartment with them (Yes I know i rent, don't show disapproval I just haven't figured out where I want to settle down when I do i shall buy a house its on my list of things to do!) I read, right now I am still reading the CoC books, stories by HP... I lost my fourth way book it might still be in a box of books in storage since I just moved. Reading Phil Hine, studying Reiki and now, loom knitting. I also plan on being a more active member in the Cult itself, I've been lurking here and there, reading this and that. As far as moving this thread to another site, I find it confusing that we have so many places to post stuff that's my opinion and I am sticking to it.
Chelle (no official name) blah blah mucky muck Herold and stuff COC Chick member
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Post by beastx on Dec 22, 2009 17:27:22 GMT -6
OK...
So this is the part where this thread reverts to it's originally desired destination.
Cora'Sahn - I can fully understanding why VS felt you were undermining him and perhaps publicly attacking him. I don't need to explain it to you. Just look over your posts from the past month and the explanation is obvious. You are a very smart woman and I am sure you probably can be equally as understanding. Understand that the perception of the Cult of Cthulhu is intertwined with the perception of VS as well. Because he cares greatly for The Great Work, The Cultists, and the CoC; Venger has a responsibility to present a certain strength and rare quality in continually ever expanding Emerald Empire. This means he often must choose whether to address or ignore, to attack or defend, to handle publicly or privately.
It is my understanding that Venger's intent was simply to clarify, if indeed it was an intentional attack publicly. Since the beginning of my involvement with the CoC, VS has always spoken of you in a high regard. I think his adoration and appreciation of you perhaps made the sting of a possible attack from you worse. To make use of the expression that as of recent has been reoccurring "he is only human". Also bear in mind that not only is he human but a man. Men often miss-phrase things to women. this is one of those things.
I think in the end all VS wanted to know was; are you unhappy and if so why not talk to him about it?
VS - I think CS was equally as "stung" and that has played a huge part in her responses. She fancies herself to be a huge supporter of you and CoC. Maybe I'll get this next part wrong but I believe when a woman gets in a state of feeling secure and respected, she forgets to consider the possible sting words can have on the ego. CS feels she should be able to dispute an opinion with you and that is all it would be interrupted as. So she, believing you've thick skin "tells it like it is" and the is dumb-founded when you perceive it as an attack.
Truth is VS is attacked so regularly outside the confides of our Emerald fold he deserves the respect of caution being exercised in our expression of differing opinions. It is not so difficult to start off with a "In my opinion".
It is something I'd like to take pride in;
The Cult of Cthulhu should be a closely bonded and considerate collection of people. We after all wouldn't want to fall into another bout of solipsism, like the one passing.
So here I place my foot... There will be no more of this foolishness. If I have to lock this thread myself, I will.
But Cora... You are worshiped here. VS... You are deified here. You are both worth more to the other than you egos are willing to confess.
BTW Cora... love the "Mirrors" blog!
ALL OTHER CULTIST SHOULD TAKE THE TIME TO REVIEW THE AWESOME BLOG POSTS ON CTHULHU-CULT.COM
OK... Flame me now...
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Post by beastx on Dec 22, 2009 17:33:03 GMT -6
*******************************hmm weird i think my post just got erased i responded with this before Venger so here it is again************************* I think this whole post got out of hand. MOMMY AND DADDY STOP FIGHTING IN FRONT OF THE CHILDREN! I think its time to remind Venger that even though some people might not see exactly the same way you do does not mean that they are out to get you. If you surround yourself with a bunch of "yes men" who only think that you are completely right at all times then how are you going to evolve and grow? You are human and prone to make mistakes and have faults for example you watch "Two and Half Men" and just started a fight with one of your Wizards out of nowhere. Also the whole nutrient line was a bad one.... too corny for my tastes and trust me I can make some corny jokes. Please don't cry or try to attack me for not agreeing with you. So with that said; Things that I do to better myself: I have learned a lot of things from my parents that I didn't realize until now and I have more conversations with them about faith and beliefs and how it gets people into trouble. Thrift stores and flea markets are your friend. Just because it is new doesn't mean that it is better. I love finding items, altering them and decorating my apartment with them (Yes I know i rent, don't show disapproval I just haven't figured out where I want to settle down when I do i shall buy a house its on my list of things to do!) I read, right now I am still reading the CoC books, stories by HP... I lost my fourth way book it might still be in a box of books in storage since I just moved. Reading Phil Hine, studying Reiki and now, loom knitting. I also plan on being a more active member in the Cult itself, I've been lurking here and there, reading this and that. As far as moving this thread to another site, I find it confusing that we have so many places to post stuff that's my opinion and I am sticking to it. Chelle (no official name) blah blah mucky muck Herold and stuff COC Chick member Ok... 6 posts and you put this up. Even if all of your points were valid, I stopped reading it. Why? Because your method of approach was abrasive and derogatory in suggestion.
Please work on this.
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Post by sin on Dec 22, 2009 18:29:49 GMT -6
Flame? *giggles* That's child's play. I'd rather have an intellectual kung-fu battle! Dukes up!
Seriously though, it's a great analysis Beast - though I can't say I agree with everything you have stated.
I am well aware of my posts here, and as I have already stated - it's not as if I've grown a new identity. This has always been my posting style. I can only assume, that it was perceived as a personal attack (and this applies to any of my posts which challenge ideas shared) because of the scrutiny that VS and the cult is under on a constant basis. I understand that. I would think that our history (Venger and I) would have spoken for itself and he wouldn't have taken things so personally.
Among these posts, today I read several comments from other cultists who state that I'm setting the example, or 'all hail Cora'Sahn, etc. (and I can provide links if necessary) so it appears that my posting habits are not always perceived as personal attacks but rather for what they really are - critical analysis.
Getting back to the topic at hand, again I must point out that this discussion was about Individual Tactics. VS, examining my ideas posted his thoughts and I posted mine in response. It was then it was perceived as a personal attack. I think this is being overlooked. What I believed to be an open discussion, was clearly not taken as such.
Many of us disagree, and often - and no arguments result from it. We just converse. When I offered that I disagreed, I did explain why. I further elaborated later, and I was offered the door. This directly contradicts the article I posted in the Green Trapezoid about how the membership interacts here. Perhaps that article should be revisited.
I don't need him to state 'in my opinion' I know it's his opinion. This again is my critical analysis of what has been offered and how it relates to the cult. As you have stated the two are inter-twined. So, when I'm addressing his opinion he could easily take it as an attack on him as a leader and on the organization. This is his perception, and mine differs because we are two individual human beings with our own perceptions of reality.
We kick around ideas here, isn't that the point of the forum? He often disagrees with me, and as has been previously stated he has opinions about my ideas. He's free to have them, and I don't take that personally; even though they are my personal ideas.
You've examined a month worth of posts, so in your perception of things the last month reflects some kind of paradigm shift in my posting personality. I assure you this is not the case. Is something bothering me about all of this? Only that I'm perplexed by the attitude towards me personally, and my comments. From where I'm sitting, the change is on the other side of this screen.
So, where do we go from here? In a private message, VS expressed that it was his hope that I understand what is to be expected of me, but I do not understand. This whole thing is just nuts.
Reflections, that's all I see here.
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Post by egodiabolus on Dec 22, 2009 18:31:59 GMT -6
I second Beast's statements.
The bottom line, in my opinion, that while this forum and this organization is very open to contradicting ideas and perspectives, Venger is ultimately where the line is drawn. This is his house, if you will, and a certain level of Satanist-inspired decorum is due. If the man says "this is how I want it handled from now on", then that is how it gets handled.
That said, "I disagree" should not be perceived as a all out challenge, no matter how many times it is evoked. It is a statement. She disagrees. It is direct and to the point, as I am learning that Cora'Sahn is in many things. From what she has written, she has a very "all or nothing" perspective on the work, or rather an "all" perspective because she rejects dualism therefore failure is literally not an option. In no way should that kind of resolve, that sense of purpose, be limited, especially here.
I imagine that we each must make a choice. For Venger admittedly, as for all of us, awakening is an on-going learning process. We have gathered here because we each agree with Venger's vision of truth. If any of us no longer agrees with that vision, or the direction that vision is taking us, then we have to question what it is we hope to gain from participating here.
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Post by chelle on Dec 22, 2009 18:33:28 GMT -6
abrasive really? just because I said i didnt like a joke and joked back? oh well I really don't care if you like what I have to say or not. I'm sorry, I did not realize that Venger was the only one who could make joking remarks about other people's posts. The problem I see is very human, people need to remember themselves and a couple of other things; 1. Xeno, I don't think Venger needs you to wipe his ass or defend him. He who is king of smart ass comments (Venger) can hold his own. I have seen him do it on many of occasions before you showed up.
2. People who make jokes at others expense should learn to take what they dish out.
3. When faced with another way of thinking or another person's idea, do not automatically think that they are trying to attack, hurt or bash you and your ideas.
4. Just because you don't like what someone is saying doesn't make them abrasive, it means you have let your emotions get the better of you and you react instead of thinking.
5. Don't forget yourself and remember to say when you are wrong you are wrong and try not to make the same mistake again.
6. Punkass men shall be viewed as cunts and mindless bimbos and will be raped and sacrificed right along side women who are cunts and mindless bimbos . (Venger, i think that needs to be put in the next book- i don't care if there is a sausage or a clam burger between their legs a punk ass bitch is still a punk ass bitch)
hows that for abrasive?? is that better? Venger what do you think? ;D
Chelle
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Post by sin on Dec 22, 2009 19:01:17 GMT -6
Chelle, you crazy. And I love that about you.
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Post by beastx on Dec 22, 2009 19:36:17 GMT -6
Where do we go? Simple...
Forward, we've all have along way to go.
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Post by beastx on Dec 22, 2009 19:39:50 GMT -6
abrasive really? just because I said i didnt like a joke and joked back? oh well I really don't care if you like what I have to say or not. I'm sorry, I did not realize that Venger was the only one who could make joking remarks about other people's posts. The problem I see is very human, people need to remember themselves and a couple of other things; 1. Xeno, I don't think Venger needs you to wipe his ass or defend him. He who is king of smart ass comments (Venger) can hold his own. I have seen him do it on many of occasions before you showed up. 2. People who make jokes at others expense should learn to take what they dish out. 3. When faced with another way of thinking or another person's idea, do not automatically think that they are trying to attack, hurt or bash you and your ideas. 4. Just because you don't like what someone is saying doesn't make them abrasive, it means you have let your emotions get the better of you and you react instead of thinking. 5. Don't forget yourself and remember to say when you are wrong you are wrong and try not to make the same mistake again. 6. Punkass men shall be viewed as cunts and mindless bimbos and will be raped and sacrificed right along side women who are cunts and mindless bimbos . (Venger, i think that needs to be put in the next book- i don't care if there is a sausage or a clam burger between their legs a punk ass bitch is still a punk ass bitch) hows that for abrasive?? is that better? Venger what do you think? ;D Chelle Touche...
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Post by nixx on Dec 22, 2009 20:13:06 GMT -6
Bloody Hell but this is getting amusing. I think, in my opinion, we've hit the point of digression that borders on the ridiculous & that is a good place to be. Let's get back on track & move on. Venger has stated his position, Cora'Sahn has stated hers. We've had some comments from the Peanut Gallery (myself included in that number), let's consider this buried & move on. Is everyone good with that?
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 23, 2009 1:51:56 GMT -6
Yes, I'm done.
From now on, I'm going to immediately address each and every problem that arises, and problems will be dealt with in a coldblooded, merciless fashion.
Everyone got to know the jocular, easy going Venger. Well, I'm done with that too. Once the Church of Satan had a few years under its belt, Satanists and spectators said of LaVey, "he's no fun anymore". Well, let them go ahead and say that about me.
Time to stop fooling around and start advancing the Cult's agenda. Everything else, and everyone else, is useless to me.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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