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Post by wisdomofages on Nov 26, 2009 9:37:23 GMT -6
Tiamat
In Babylonian myths, Tiamat is a huge, bloated female dragon that personifies the saltwater ocean, the water of Chaos. She is also the primordial mother of all that exists, including the gods themselves. Her consort is Apsu, the personification of the freshwater abyss that lies beneath the Earth. From their union, saltwater with freshwater, the first pair of gods were born. They are Lachmu and Lachamu, parents of Ansar and Kisar, grandparents of Anu and Ea. In the creation epic Enuma elish, written around 2000 BCE, their descendants started to irritate Tiamat and Apsu so they decided to kill their offspring. Ea discovered their plans and he managed to kill Apsu while the latter was asleep. Tiamat flew into a rage when she learned about Apsu's death and wanted to avenge her husband. She created an army of monstrous creatures, which was to be led by her new consort Kingu, who is also her son. Eventually, Tiamat was defeated by the young god Marduk, who was born in the deep freshwater sea.
Marduk cleaved her body in half, and from the upper half he created the sky and from the lower half he made the earth. From her water came forth the clouds and her tears became the source of the Tigris and the Euphratus. Kingu also perished, and from his blood Marduk created the first humans.
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 26, 2009 10:07:13 GMT -6
The Old Ones are far more ancient than even Babylonia, Mesopotamia, and Sumeria.
VS
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Post by Draelloathe on Nov 26, 2009 16:20:43 GMT -6
One way to think of it, is that they're so ancient it took the mad dreams of HP Lovecraft to reawaken humanity's knowledge of Cthulhu.
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Post by LostSoul on Nov 26, 2009 19:02:51 GMT -6
Agree with Venger.
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Post by thepuck on Nov 27, 2009 2:39:09 GMT -6
I also agree with Venger. I have experimented with such ideas and then never really pan out. Most human gods are either about nature or the human experience. Taimat is a female, she's a mother, there is seawater and freshwater, etc...these are all human concepts...all too human.
I am not saying that we should not work with nearer forces of darkness; we should work with all of them as our own resonances lead us. However, we need to recognize a certain range, a certain distance from what we are as a species and being. Some things are very close to us; these are ascended mages, various semi-humans either through meddling or magick, etc. Then there are the near gods, spirits, and demons; these are related to human experiences, gods like those of the hearth and home, parenthood, elementals, the harvest gods, etc. Then there are the cosmic gods, principles of existence like Nyx or Absu. Finally we have the acosmic entities, who are the Ancient Ones, Old Ones, etc.
This is one of the primary functions in the Mythos for Nyarlothotep...he can act as a bridge between the Ancient Ones and humanity.
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Post by kingu77 on May 29, 2010 15:14:27 GMT -6
I have studied mesopotamian myths you got most of it right, but Tiamat was not a dragon, not sure where that started but i blame D&D... She is a goddess and one that does not look like a dragon what so ever... Look her up on google and ignore the d&d inspired art, just look at the ancient stone sculptures birdy wings feet and etc, hence not a dragon... I agree with V and yet i always viewed Tiamat and etc as children of and or basicly slightly younger than the old ones or perhaps even same type of gods just took on a different role cause they where bored...
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Post by Sarak G'hash on May 29, 2010 18:06:34 GMT -6
I have studied mesopotamian myths you got most of it right, but Tiamat was not a dragon, not sure where that started but i blame D&D... She is a goddess and one that does not look like a dragon what so ever... Look her up on google and ignore the d&d inspired art, just look at the ancient stone sculptures birdy wings feet and etc, hence not a dragon... I agree with V and yet i always viewed Tiamat and etc as children of and or basicly slightly younger than the old ones or perhaps even same type of gods just took on a different role cause they where bored... She is also the goddess of Temple of the Vampire. Awake!
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Post by 10kdays on May 29, 2010 22:55:58 GMT -6
Consider this: maybe there was some knowledge on the ancient civilizations' part regarding the Old Ones, and their legends and myths are inspired by how they saw the Old Ones.
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Post by kingu77 on May 30, 2010 13:54:56 GMT -6
that is a point, any story of gods goddesses or the like could be perverted in many ways by the human monsters that wrote them...
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Post by Sarak G'hash on May 30, 2010 15:04:37 GMT -6
that is a point, any story of gods goddesses or the like could be perverted in many ways by the human monsters that wrote them... and generally are! Awake!
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Post by ragnafa on Jun 25, 2010 23:07:35 GMT -6
But here's another way of thinking as well with words such as absu and nyx and acosmic. Who's to say that this isn't just a figment of human thought as well and that these words are only words. I mean that you say Tiamat is concept of human thinking but isn't the knowledge that we have of space,time and just everything in general feel free to comment.
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Jason King
Adeptus
++Ninth of the Nine++ Apostate
Posts: 37
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Post by Jason King on Jun 26, 2010 5:33:09 GMT -6
Cthulhu has no real parallels in any ancient mythos. The closest would probably be the Dragon (Satan) in Rev. 20:1-3, but even that's a stretch. And contrary to popular misconception, Cthulhu is not an aquaphilic entity. This misunderstanding is due to Derleth's insistence on following the fourfold elemental scheme of Greece and later Western occultism.
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Post by ragnafa on Jun 26, 2010 22:27:06 GMT -6
Very true Jasonking
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Post by tavthe on Dec 5, 2010 21:28:07 GMT -6
I agree that the figures predate the early mythos, but a serious re-evaluation needs to become part of the dialogue. Not necessarily just a re-eval of the mythos itself or the motivations of the authors, but how much importance we place on it, as it was told 3000 yrs ago. Somewhere on CoC site, Venger said something about giving consideration to personal experience or meditations regarding the Old Ones. At some point, we will need to reconsider whether we'll be led down a path of 'reconstructionism', or forge it in our own place and time.
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