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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 10, 2010 18:19:52 GMT -6
Gurdjieff and Ouspensky talk about a Chief feature or one psychological flaw that everyone has that tends to keep one in a cycle of recurrence, repeating the same things over.
I want to go out on a limb and expose what I think mine might be so as to learn something crucial to my development.
A chief feature seems to be very well hidden by oneself, so, as I've thought about what it could be, I could be wrong. Also when I've come up with potentially what could be considered my chief feature it has been common for me to forget what it was only a minute later, which has led me to write a small list of possibles as per Master Diabolus' instruction.
If I think in terms of the main things that hold me back in life psychologically I would consider these;
1. Taking other peoples opinions over my own, possibly due to laziness or lack of confidence.
2. Not wanting to offend people. This seems to have stopped me from achieving anything substantial in my life. I've been worried to speak my mind or do things I want to do even if it is productive and good as to not hurt other peoples feelings. This could be the same as considering others before myself but in some cases to my own detriment. I feel there has been a useful survival application of this feature, yet in a lot of cases it just holds me back immensely.
If I have some success then I get concerned with other people's jealousy and this tends to drag me back down and ruin the success that I've had.
3. Expecting others to be as considerate as I am.
4. Not wanting to be challenged. Wanting to be safe and insulated. A tendency to fall into self destructive behaviour . Wanting to withdraw and hide from life when things get me down, such as the state of suffering of this universe, life.
5. A need to be liked by people. That their opinion of me is high, and I look good/benevolent in their eyes. The good guy badge so to speak.
I feel I'm on the cusp of working all this out. These aren't permanent in me always but they do tend to rear their ugly heads at the most inappropriate times, and have been with me since childhood to greater or lesser degrees.
I ask the Fourth Way Masters of this Cult, would you say I'm on the right track?
I know you don't know me well personally so it's hard to say but any feedback would be appreciated.
By his Loathsome tentacles!
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 11, 2010 9:07:45 GMT -6
Yes, I do feel like you're on the right track. Especially since those features are related to each other. I believe our chief feature usually creates a chain reaction of personality traits and preferences and buffers.
Recognizing them, K'ara Kaiul, is a great first step to resolving them. Keep observing all 5 in yourself. When possible, go beyond your comfort zone... act contrary to what is mechanically ingrained within. It might feel terrifying, but in the end you will be liberated.
I encourage others to try and get at their own chief feature.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Madguten
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Post by Madguten on Jul 11, 2010 9:40:09 GMT -6
IA!
This is what i am doing myself these times. I THOUGHT i always did but in truth it is a deeper process than i wanted to admit. It is hard work but certainly woth it all in order to free oneself.
IA! IA! KTULU FTAGN!
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Post by K'zin Z'tari on Jul 11, 2010 10:32:54 GMT -6
I am going through similar phase,I have been working on this for some time now and I am working on a post about what I have been doing since my post"Personal Progress"it will be up within the next ten days
When the stars are right
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Post by rylehsambassador on Jul 11, 2010 13:53:30 GMT -6
I find it really enlightening that you shared this with us I see the flaws in myself clearly at times aswell the main three I notice and im working to push myself out of my comfort zone are.
1.I tend to put too much consideration into peoples feelings before undertaking things,but ive became better at his one finding a happy medium and moving with exacting force when I know its right for me.
2.Being quite blunt in the way I speak ,I find this one a blessing and a curse ive always been one to shoot from the hip but it seems to offend people quite alot,but this led me to realize that some people are just far too fragile and need to her unaltered feelings at times to be that much closer to slipping out of the grasp of the slumber we rest in.
3.Allowing the skeletons in my closet persay to haunt me in the past rather then using them to better myself. This has mainly changed now as ive used the hurt ive experinced and other "skeletons" I kept locked away for song long as items of power and focus now and they helped me become a stronger and more focused entity in the long run I think.
If I could get some feedback on this from you guys and gals I would highly appreciate it I always enjoy sharing my path and experiences with others and hearing their reactions in return.
Awake! G'pock Thoth Herald of the old Gods
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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 12, 2010 8:10:53 GMT -6
Thanks everyone, and I appreciate the great advice from Master Satanis and Master Xeno.
Master Satanis - I will take your advice and stay with observing them. I feel it's a breakthrough just to have recognized them as I have sensed their presence all these years, but have never been able to put my finger on them until now. I'm glad you can see they are all related. By knowing this it should help me to eventually narrow it down to just one feature after more self observation. I haven't yet tried to act contrary to them. This should be interesting and I will update you with my progress.
Master Xeno - Your post was incredibly helpful to me. Thank you. I will apply the tools you've offered. Your Cost versus Benefit over Necessity formula should be of great practical use to me. This is exactly the kind of mental equation/formula I need.
I hadn't exactly looked at the two kinds of jealousy like that before. Awesome! I can see examples of this in my own life and it rings true.
It is easy to forget man is asleep. So true. How can they consider as much as someone trying to awaken. This calls for a change of perception on my behalf. It's easy to forget that they aren't doing the Work, I am. They can't know any different.
I must say that the more I get into the Work, the more the universe does fuck with me. haha. I am feeling like a series of tests are being placed before me almost daily to see how I will handle them. Annoying things from left field just pop up out of nowhere to keep me from slipping back into my usual comfort zone. I use these as often as I can to self observe. Gurdjieff did say that one must get used to an almost permanent state of discomfort for a long time. There have been times I've felt like running from all this, the Fourth Way, the Cult of Cthulhu. But as Ouspensky said, " You cannot sit between two stools", and from my short, intense experience so far, I know this is true. I have to keep going, I've made the decision. There's no going back. To what anyway? A deeper sleep than before?
You are right. I am liked for the most part by the people around me. There is something deep in me that tries to see it from a negative angle. This quite possibly stems from events in my youth. As far as your analogy goes with the council workers standing around watching the only guy working, which is a common sight in my city, I'd be the guy working.
I appreciate this, it's exactly what I was looking for!
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 12, 2010 13:13:07 GMT -6
That is the way with Man Number 4. Once he starts making progress, obstacles will interject themselves into his way at every opportunity. But, as you mentioned, that provides grist for the mill.
I know from personal experience that when you overcome yourself to a certain degree, the universe realizes that you cannot be dissuaded... you are unbreakable. As a Man # 6, I'm no longer subject to the same laws which ordinary humans fall under. Within this kind of school, the teacher must have a greater understanding than his students. The most fruitful of schools have several levels of transmission.
I am here for Men # 5 just as Men # 5 provide exemplary instruction for Men # 4. And to some degree, Men # 4 can provide an introduction of Work ideas to Men #'s 1, 2, and 3. Such is the power of the Cthulhu Cult!
Doxa d'wosk!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Jul 12, 2010 20:11:18 GMT -6
Master Xeno - Your post was incredibly helpful to me. Thank you. I will apply the tools you've offered. Your Cost versus Benefit over Necessity formula should be of great practical use to me. I'll second that.I am feeling like a series of tests are being placed before me almost daily to see how I will handle them. I would venture to say that these tests were always there. You just didn't recognize them as such. As you've said, you've been on this path to awakening for some time now. It's just recently that you've found the tools that resonate with the thoughts you've had all along. Events that arouse strong emotions with us or are surprising in nature can be disquieting, for it often is in their aftermath that we discover how profoundly our histories have shaped us. How we respond to the constant changes taking place in the world around us is a product of our history, a testament to our individuality, and a part of the process that allows us to address key elements of our past in a context we can grasp in the present. I have to keep going, I've made the decision. There's no going back. To what anyway? A deeper sleep than before? There is no going back. You could try to forget to remember yourself, to observe yourself, but once you've traveled so far, by actively avoiding remembrance and observation, you are still doing so. It would be possible to reorganize your priorities in such a way that didn't make awakening so high on the list. But with all that you've learned, it will just gnaw at you from the inside out. I don't think it's worth the return trip. There is something deep in me that tries to see it from a negative angle. It's not just you. This is true of most people. By seeing everything from a negative angle, it will continue to create a bit of drama in your life. This drama will help you to stay asleep. It will distract you from your goals in all areas, sucking up your time and energy. This is normal. Luckily for you, you've found a group of people that recognize this and are working diligently to destroy it in us all.
I would encourage you to try to internalize your feelings without categorizing or evaluating them. When you feel unsure of the legitimacy of your reactions, remember that cultural, sociological, spiritual, and familial differences can cause two people to interpret a single event in widely dissimilar ways. It is because of this that you must forge your own path forward regardless of how others perceive your success or failure.
Awake!
AK
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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 13, 2010 8:04:07 GMT -6
Master Xeno - Your post was incredibly helpful to me. Thank you. I will apply the tools you've offered. Your Cost versus Benefit over Necessity formula should be of great practical use to me. I'll second that.I would venture to say that these tests were always there. You just didn't recognize them as such. As you've said, you've been on this path to awakening for some time now. It's just recently that you've found the tools that resonate with the thoughts you've had all along. Events that arouse strong emotions with us or are surprising in nature can be disquieting, for it often is in their aftermath that we discover how profoundly our histories have shaped us. How we respond to the constant changes taking place in the world around us is a product of our history, a testament to our individuality, and a part of the process that allows us to address key elements of our past in a context we can grasp in the present. There is no going back. You could try to forget to remember yourself, to observe yourself, but once you've traveled so far, by actively avoiding remembrance and observation, you are still doing so. It would be possible to reorganize your priorities in such a way that didn't make awakening so high on the list. But with all that you've learned, it will just gnaw at you from the inside out. I don't think it's worth the return trip. There is something deep in me that tries to see it from a negative angle. It's not just you. This is true of most people. By seeing everything from a negative angle, it will continue to create a bit of drama in your life. This drama will help you to stay asleep. It will distract you from your goals in all areas, sucking up your time and energy. This is normal. Luckily for you, you've found a group of people that recognize this and are working diligently to destroy it in us all.
I would encourage you to try to internalize your feelings without categorizing or evaluating them. When you feel unsure of the legitimacy of your reactions, remember that cultural, sociological, spiritual, and familial differences can cause two people to interpret a single event in widely dissimilar ways. It is because of this that you must forge your own path forward regardless of how others perceive your success or failure.
Awake!
AKAspara, you've given me yet another angle to ponder. Thankyou. The drama does help us to stay asleep, I agree. When we get caught up in negative drama our goals and aspirations take a blow and and we veer off the path for an indefinite amount of time. I realize this will happen from time to time and I'm working on shortening this recovery period. Recognizing our chief feature in action is the first step to keeping us on track. Personally, before I began the work, on some occasions, one strike of my chief feature could wipe out my confidence for weeks at a time. Yes, lucky for me, the Cult of Cthulhu is spearheading a microcosmic revolution inside of me. It could be that my perception has changed in relation to tests that have always been there, yet I do feel a unique distinction when something strange comes up that arrives at a most unusual time, and seemingly just to fuck with me. I just get into doing something that is usual for me and have never had any issues before in the same circumstances and BAM! I usually get a smirk and think, you can't be serious, but then I have a strong sensation of it being a test. I then take pride in passing it, and observe myself in the process. This is all subjective I know, however there does feel to be a difference between these kinds of tests and usual daily obstacles. I think your right Aspara, trying to make a return trip would not be worth it. I know it would eat me from the inside out, just like the gnawing feeling I've had for all these years that I should be doing 'something'. That something is the Work. Awake!
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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 14, 2010 5:09:07 GMT -6
That is the way with Man Number 4. Once he starts making progress, obstacles will interject themselves into his way at every opportunity. But, as you mentioned, that provides grist for the mill.
I know from personal experience that when you overcome yourself to a certain degree, the universe realizes that you cannot be dissuaded... you are unbreakable. As a Man # 6, I'm no longer subject to the same laws which ordinary humans fall under. Within this kind of school, the teacher must have a greater understanding than his students. The most fruitful of schools have several levels of transmission.
I am here for Men # 5 just as Men # 5 provide exemplary instruction for Men # 4. And to some degree, Men # 4 can provide an introduction of Work ideas to Men #'s 1, 2, and 3. Such is the power of the Cthulhu Cult!
Doxa d'wosk!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
The way you just explained this Master Satanis just clicked with me. I now see the system more clearly than before. For me to be beginning to experience the features of man #4 absolutely blows my mind. I'm so happy that my efforts are beginning to bear fruit. The tier method of instruction you explained really makes sense. That is what has clicked so well. I love this Cult! If I may ask, was there a long period for you between being man # 4 and man #5 and also to man #6?. And also, was it hardest first to get from man #1,2 or 3 to man#4? By his loathsome tentacles!
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Post by egodiabolus on Jul 14, 2010 8:28:40 GMT -6
If I may ask, was there a long period for you between being man # 4 and man #5 and also to man #6?. And also, was it hardest first to get from man #1,2 or 3 to man#4? It is all relative and dependent on the individual; some will have an easier time advancing than others, and some will find different periods of advancement more difficult than other periods. Keep in mind also that it is not a consistent, forward moving process. The general flow is forward, but men 1, 2, 3 all experience moments of awareness consistent with that of man 4 and 5. Likewise, man 4 will have lucid moments akin to the experiences of man 5, 6, or in rare moments like man 7. Conversely, man 6 will occasionally experience moments more like the awareness of man 5, 4, or even 1,2,3 (which only differ in their focus). Man 4 is man 4 most of the time, as is the case for man 5. The goal (and the defining quality) is the consistency of the experience.
I would suggest that going from man 1,2, or 3 to man 4 is the most difficult step, because it means overcoming the self and recognizing that most of what you are convinced of is bullshit. You are opposed by a false sense of self that has encouraged you to be totally convinced of your physical prowess (man 1), emotional resolve (man 2), or mental superiority (man 3). The awareness that results in man 4 is the death of the illusion of self as a whole and complete being and the awareness of a fractured and flawed entity... but one with the potential to become truly whole.
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 14, 2010 12:49:40 GMT -6
Master Diabolus stated it nicely, but I will add my own three cents.
Committing to The Work enough to see progressive results is difficult before one actually experiences those results. That is the conundrum. We need to have enough faith in The System in order to put this teaching into practice. Only after we verify our results are we energized by the discovery to pour ever last drop of effort into our struggle.
As soon as I got over the initial shock, I became a bit obsessed with The Work. It didn't take long for me to become a Man Number 4. Then it took several years to reach the level of Man # 5, note that I did not have the benefit of a 4th Way School. Finally, after the 2009 Walpurgisnacht convention I reached Man # 6 status... which, I believe, is the most difficult transition.
My advice? Don't rush. Be mindful of every single moment possible as it comes. Takes time to absorb the depth of this teaching. But even as Man # 4, there is much we can do. The tiers of our ziggurat have a conscious design!
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by K'zin Z'tari on Jul 14, 2010 14:01:08 GMT -6
This has been one brilliant lesson in the fourth way this thread that is,I have really enjoyed just sitting back and observing,this has been of great help to me and i will go over this conversation again and again.
So much of what K´ara Kaiul said in the beginning was exactly what I had been going through and since I started this some weeks ago with my post "personal progress" where Lord Satanis suggested to find the chief feature and Master Diabolus gave further instructions,I find myself to be glad that something really worth wile came out of it.
Keep up the good work my brethren
Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 14, 2010 17:22:33 GMT -6
If I may further elucidate...
The being of Man Numbers 1, 2, and 3 is about suffering; Man # 4 is about observing; Man # 5 is about taking; Man # 6 is about giving; and Man # 7 is about becoming God. Mark these words and remember.
I'm tempted to proffer examples of Man # 6 such as Bono, Sting, or President Barack Obama. Such things can be misinterpreted though. The best example I can think of Man # 6 transforming into a Man # 7 is Obi-Wan Kenobi's sacrifice towards the end of Star Wars episode IV: A New Hope. When he tells Darth Vader, "You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine." From that moment on, Obi-Wan Kenobi was the force.
To continue along this line, when Darth Vader said, "At last, the circle is complete. When I left you I was but the learner; now I am the master!" the "master of evil" had reached the level of Man # 5. Quite an accomplishment, but not the last stage of human evolution by any means.
Questions, comments, suggestions?
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by ragnafa on Jul 14, 2010 21:09:41 GMT -6
Well said when it comes to starwars My favorite. In your opinion What do you think it will take to reach the last stage...Is it a individual process or does humanity need to be at a specific point in order to reach this process. From that I mean does humanity as a whole have to be sacrificed to reach the last stage in order for certain individuals like You or myself to Awake... Ia,Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn.
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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 15, 2010 3:15:27 GMT -6
If I may further elucidate...
The being of Man Numbers 1, 2, and 3 is about suffering; Man # 4 is about observing; Man # 5 is about taking; Man # 6 is about giving; and Man # 7 is about becoming God. Mark these words and remember.
I'm tempted to proffer examples of Man # 6 such as Bono, Sting, or President Barack Obama. Such things can be misinterpreted though. The best example I can think of Man # 6 transforming into a Man # 7 is Obi-Wan Kenobi's sacrifice towards the end of Star Wars episode IV: A New Hope. When he tells Darth Vader, "You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine." From that moment on, Obi-Wan Kenobi was the force.
To continue along this line, when Darth Vader said, "At last, the circle is complete. When I left you I was but the learner; now I am the master!" the "master of evil" had reached the level of Man # 5. Quite an accomplishment, but not the last stage of human evolution by any means.
Questions, comments, suggestions?
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest [/b] I know it may sound crazy, but today at work I was also considering the Star Wars parallels you have given Master Satanis. Not the exact ones but I really relate to the concepts of the Jedi and Sith and mentally make comparisons to the Fourth Way. I was an 80's child so it makes perfect sense. I was thinking of human examples as well and can see how you would see the one's you mentioned as men #6. I was also thinking of the late Steve Irwin- the crocodile hunter. It appears to me he had a huge essence and an unshakable paradigm. Also he made a huge impact in the world and however cheesy he may have come across, he was for real and was a huge giver. How would you consider Luke Skywalker at the beginning of his training in 'A New Hope'? Man #4? When he became a Jedi Knight was he then a man #5? Also, when you say that Vader was at that moment man #5, are you saying he was at the 'taking' stage? If so, that would make sense. And if Obi Wan was at the stage of #6, a Jedi master then that would be the 'giving' stage which is where you are at now. To me that is an amazing accomplishment. When Obi Wan sacrificed himself he became one with the force and hence man #7. Would you say that in order to become man #7 in this life you would have to give up or transcend your physical body? Is there the possibility of becoming man #7 whilst retaining your physical form? I would be interested in your opinion on The Emperor 'Darth Sidious',as well. By his Loathsome Tentacles!
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Post by Sarak G'hash on Jul 15, 2010 4:40:13 GMT -6
If I may further elucidate...
The being of Man Numbers 1, 2, and 3 is about suffering; Man # 4 is about observing; Man # 5 is about taking; Man # 6 is about giving; and Man # 7 is about becoming God. Mark these words and remember.
I'm tempted to proffer examples of Man # 6 such as Bono, Sting, or President Barack Obama. Such things can be misinterpreted though. The best example I can think of Man # 6 transforming into a Man # 7 is Obi-Wan Kenobi's sacrifice towards the end of Star Wars episode IV: A New Hope. When he tells Darth Vader, "You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine." From that moment on, Obi-Wan Kenobi was the force.
To continue along this line, when Darth Vader said, "At last, the circle is complete. When I left you I was but the learner; now I am the master!" the "master of evil" had reached the level of Man # 5. Quite an accomplishment, but not the last stage of human evolution by any means.
Questions, comments, suggestions?
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
I know it may sound crazy, but today at work I was also considering the Star Wars parallels you have given Master Satanis. Not the exact ones but I really relate to the concepts of the Jedi and Sith and mentally make comparisons to the Fourth Way. I was an 80's child so it makes perfect sense. I was thinking of human examples as well and can see how you would see the one's you mentioned as men #6. I was also thinking of the late Steve Irwin- the crocodile hunter. It appears to me he had a huge essence and an unshakable paradigm. Also he made a huge impact in the world and however cheesy he may have come across, he was for real and was a huge giver. How would you consider Luke Skywalker at the beginning of his training in 'A New Hope'? Man #4? When he became a Jedi Knight was he then a man #5? Also, when you say that Vader was at that moment man #5, are you saying he was at the 'taking' stage? If so, that would make sense. And if Obi Wan was at the stage of #6, a Jedi master then that would be the 'giving' stage which is where you are at now. To me that is an amazing accomplishment. When Obi Wan sacrificed himself he became one with the force and hence man #7. Would you say that in order to become man #7 in this life you would have to give up or transcend your physical body? Is there the possibility of becoming man #7 whilst retaining your physical form? I would be interested in your opinion on The Emperor 'Darth Sidious',as well. By his Loathsome Tentacles! Ok, friends, now that you have the Star Wars parallel going I can understand what you are talking about. Many thanks. With this in mind, I have been at Man 6 for a while now. Or rather Woman 6...lol Awake!
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Post by K'zin Z'tari on Jul 15, 2010 5:07:47 GMT -6
That Star Wars idea helped a lot,thank you Master Satanis,you´re the man
When the stars are right
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 15, 2010 14:00:06 GMT -6
That is a weighty question. I don't think I can answer that right now. Let's see if others can deliver a theory backed up by logical assumptions. I believe speculation could lead to some interesting discussion!
At the beginning of Luke's training, I would put him at Man # 4... precisely when Obi-Wan tells him that he's just taken his first step into a larger world while traveling to Alderaan on the Millennium Falcon.
In order to become Man # 5, Luke journeys to Dagobah because it is impossible to reach that kind of development in one's knowledge and being without guidance. In this case, Master Yoda became Luke's teacher; together they formed the smallest 4th Way school possible: Master and apprentice.
When Luke abandoned his training to help his friends, he was Man # 5. Yoda and Obi-Wan urged Luke to finish his training and become a Man # 6 before facing Vader.
By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke was Man # 6, Darth Vader was Man # 6 (which is why they were at a stalemate), and Darth Sidious (Emperor Palpatine) and Master Yoda were Men # 7. Now, you're probably thinking that doesn't make any sense, since Sidious wasn't giving anything throughout the Star Wars saga. However, we should look at giving or not being totally self-serving and egotistical in another way.
I'd like some forum members to tell me how Sidious could have been a Man # 6 throughout the original Star Wars trilogy?
Do you have to give up your physical body or transcend yourself in order to become a Man # 7? In a word... probably. Another example would be Jesus Christ allowing himself to be crucified. That's actually a perfect model for the transformation into Man # 7.
If giving were all that was required of Man # 6, then I would agree with you, Sarak G'hash. However, that is just the tip of the Star Destroyer. Before one can become a Man # 6, he must be a Man # 5. The Fifth Stage of Man necessitates the acquisition of power and influence in the world. Man # 5 should be able to move mountains if need be. Awareness turns to control as one becomes master of oneself. Self-mastery leads to mastering others and molding reality into whatever a Fifth Man desires.
Additionally, Man # 6 must be able to perform miracles. A small handful I've already performed, but more are on the way. I assure you all, it is no easy thing to attain such a grade.
My pleasure.
AHRAEV NUSZETH RITEE! VIB OOLA INHA W'TEEN OT INHA PH'N GLITH!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 16, 2010 17:47:23 GMT -6
The Jesus Christ model is a perfect example of man #7. Also, I can understand the Star Wars saga more clearly now in relation to each Jedi or Sith's development at various points. Thankyou Master! This might call for a Star Wars movie marathon at my place, to let all the pieces fall into place.
In regards to Darth Sidious being a man #6 in the original trilogy, I would be inclined to say that he was willing to rule the galaxy with Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker by his side. If he was completely self serving, wouldn't he want total control of the galaxy for himself? By giving Luke the opportunity in Return of the Jedi to rule with him on the dark side, I see this as an act of sharing and also a risk on his behalf. If Luke were to side with his father Darth Vader, they could overthrow The Emperor and that is pretty much what happened anyway, even though Luke didn't turn to the dark side.
If this is the case, then Darth Sidious wasn't totally selfish. He wanted Vader and Luke to grow their power's of the dark side of the force, which could be devastating eventually for him if they decided to overthrow him. This could mean he didn't totally consider his own safety and assured dominion and made him appear a bit selfless and vulnerable.
On the other hand, if he had both Vader and Luke on his side he could extend his rule further across the galaxy. But given the dark side's lust for power in the movie it would probably eventually be the undoing of The Emperor as an overthrow would seem imminent.
By his Loathsome tentacles!
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Post by beastx on Jul 16, 2010 21:46:44 GMT -6
When Luke abandoned his training to help his friends, he was Man # 5. Yoda and Obi-Wan urged Luke to finish his training and become a Man # 6 before facing Vader.
By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke was Man # 6, Darth Vader was Man # 6 (which is why they were at a stalemate), and Darth Sidious (Emperor Palpatine) and Master Yoda were Men # 7. Now, you're probably thinking that doesn't make any sense, since Sidious wasn't giving anything throughout the Star Wars saga. However, we should look at giving or not being totally self-serving and egotistical in another way.
I wanted to point out something that maybe is here in this Stars Wars analogy, but not so obvious..
When Luke returns to Yoda after his fail facing Vader, a very curious thing occurs...
He finds Yoda in the last sands of the hour glass, making his peace as he prepares to join the force. He attempts to persuade Yoda to complete his training and is met with an unusual response. Yoda says something to the effect that Luke now has all that he needs, no further training is required. If we follow Master Satanis' analogy, we know Luke was man #5 when he left and upon his return he at some point shifted to man #6.
When was that? What do you think the driving force to that transformation was? To me the answer seems obvious and I believe we can tighten the loose parallel between Gurdjieff's method and this analogy through understanding this.
Luke left with all the right intentions at heart, but he was still considering all the wrong influences. By this, what I mean is he was driven (like his father) by his pride, a fear for his friends, a confusion of his place within the force. His arrogance coupled with his anger, fear, and confusion were almost the right mixture for true self destruction. Self-Destruction was definitely what was called for to move him from man #5 to man #6, but this was hairs from the wrong kind.
The story line clues us into the wisdom of (self)forced humility. I imagine getting your arse whipped by a force that is so very much greater than you and then taking home the trophy of handlessness should definitely serve a healthy helping of this.
This I suspect, is the lesson Gurdjieff imposed upon Ouspensky(and many others). That false sense of Self... it IS a tricky snake coiled at the base of the toilet. Waiting till you are so occupied pushing out your own constitution, mindlessly unaware of the greater surrounding influences of your environment. Should you be truly Awake, you would see the snake and act accordingly to it. However the gloating bobble-head almost never stares long enough at one point to really understand what lies within...
Gurdjieff on more than one occasion "pushed" Ouspensky out of the proverbial nest. Was it because he was under the influences of deadly pretentiousness? Maybe it was because there comes a point where we must put what we've learned to use? It might have been Gurdjieff keenly manipulating the influences to create a strong point of focus within Ouspensky.
As we well know a greater deal of focus is placed on things that make us uncomfortable. Those moments in which we find ourselves face to face with the very elements in which we feel threaten our lives (literal or not) are always brutally clear. As the light-saber whizzes past our head and we realize (usually for the first time) we are in over our heads. We are forced to call within ourselves the things in which true sorcery is drawn from.
Gurdjieff said;
"At the moment it is not yet clear to you," G. once said, "that people living on the earth can belong to very different levels, although in appearance they look exactly the same. Just as there are very different levels of men, so there are different levels of art. Only you do not realize at present that the difference between these levels is far greater than you might suppose. You take different things on one level, far too near one another, and you think these different levels are accessible to you.
- In Search of the Miraculous by P.D. Ouspensky"
Connecting the Dots Yet?
AWAKE!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by egodiabolus on Jul 16, 2010 22:49:04 GMT -6
A message to our more impressionable readers and those who already rail against us for "worshiping Cthulhu" and may take the Star Wars analogy the wrong way (you know who you are),
I have no doubt that my peers who are using the Star Wars analogy do so as a caricature of the Fourth Way explanations of stages. It is a very simplistic parallel that resonates in the pop-culture that just about anyone can grasp, but it remains the cartoon version of the reality the Work encourages us all to engage in. The idea is to remain objective in your view, even when using fiction to illustrate your point. What is being illustrated in this analogy is the stages of development, and nothing else.
It may seem so obvious as to be a moot point, but as experience has proven we are sometimes visited by those who fail to recognize the obvious, make more out of what is being said, and look for any flaw in our armor to use against us.
In the Lucas-verse, the distinction between "positive and negative", though muddled to a degree, is still much more clear-cut than in our own reality. The awareness we strive for is much more difficult to achieve than manipulation of the "force" by the "force-sensitive" characters being discussed in this analogy. What we strive for is far greater, far more simply explained, and far more difficult to achieve.
I cannot belabor this point enough. Achieving awareness is not akin to the "force sensitivity" described in Star Wars. The Work does not lead to any extraordinary abilities, not intentionally. It may hint at such possibilities. There may be rumors of certain men having extraordinary talents, but this is not our goal. Our goal is to be more of what we truly are and do more with what we really have. Anyone who seeks "psychic" abilities over the development of real skills and talents is more often than not doomed to failure. There is little to no proof of any individual developing abilities outside the norm, all we have are unsubstantiated rumors and the promise that there is "no guarantees". What we do see are individuals who do develop their natural talents to their optimum potential. This a far better goal for "sly men".
And despite the intentions I am confident were shared by those participating in this thread, there are others who, reading it, will assume that our goal is to seek mystic abilities instead of developing our actual talents. Already, we have at least one example of a member of this forum who, after reading this thread, assumed that they were level 6 based on the analogy given. Do not be fooled by the simplicity of the analogy or the fiction used to illustrate the reality. Even the Fourth Way concept of men 1-7 is an overly simplistic description of a much more complicated process.
Seek to remember yourself, think your own thoughts, feel your own emotions, and behave in a manner that is of your own volition. This you can prove exists. Leave the fantastic potentials that may lay beyond for the time when you are in a position (if such a time ever comes) to test those realms for yourself. It is far better, I think, to make the most of what you have and develop along real lines of potential than to pursue (as some might think we do) abilities which few have displayed and even less have put to practical use. Doing otherwise is simply engaging in imagination and failing to correctly observe yourself.
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 16, 2010 23:44:42 GMT -6
When Luke abandoned his training to help his friends, he was Man # 5. Yoda and Obi-Wan urged Luke to finish his training and become a Man # 6 before facing Vader.
By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke was Man # 6, Darth Vader was Man # 6 (which is why they were at a stalemate), and Darth Sidious (Emperor Palpatine) and Master Yoda were Men # 7. Now, you're probably thinking that doesn't make any sense, since Sidious wasn't giving anything throughout the Star Wars saga. However, we should look at giving or not being totally self-serving and egotistical in another way.
I wanted to point out something that maybe is here in this Stars Wars analogy, but not so obvious..
When Luke returns to Yoda after his fail facing Vader, a very curious thing occurs...
He finds Yoda in the last sands of the hour glass, making his peace as he prepares to join the force. He attempts to persuade Yoda to complete his training and is met with an unusual response. Yoda says something to the effect that Luke now has all that he needs, no further training is required. If we follow Master Satanis' analogy, we know Luke was man #5 when he left and upon his return he at some point shifted to man #6.
When was that? What do you think the driving force to that transformation was? To me the answer seems obvious and I believe we can tighten the loose parallel between Gurdjieff's method and this analogy through understanding this.
Luke left with all the right intentions at heart, but he was still considering all the wrong influences. By this, what I mean is he was driven (like his father) by his pride, a fear for his friends, a confusion of his place within the force. His arrogance coupled with his anger, fear, and confusion were almost the right mixture for true self destruction. Self-Destruction was definitely what was called for to move him from man #5 to man #6, but this was hairs from the wrong kind.
The story line clues us into the wisdom of (self)forced humility. I imagine getting your arse whipped by a force that is so very much greater than you and then taking home the trophy of handlessness should definitely serve a healthy helping of this.
This I suspect, is the lesson Gurdjieff imposed upon Ouspensky(and many others). That false sense of Self... it IS a tricky snake coiled at the base of the toilet. Waiting till you are so occupied pushing out your own constitution, mindlessly unaware of the greater surrounding influences of your environment. Should you be truly Awake, you would see the snake and act accordingly to it. However the gloating bobble-head almost never stares long enough at one point to really understand what lies within...
Gurdjieff on more than one occasion "pushed" Ouspensky out of the proverbial nest. Was it because he was under the influences of deadly pretentiousness? Maybe it was because there comes a point where we must put what we've learned to use? It might have been Gurdjieff keenly manipulating the influences to create a strong point of focus within Ouspensky.
As we well know a greater deal of focus is placed on things that make us uncomfortable. Those moments in which we find ourselves face to face with the very elements in which we feel threaten our lives (literal or not) are always brutally clear. As the light-saber whizzes past our head and we realize (usually for the first time) we are in over our heads. We are forced to call within ourselves the things in which true sorcery is drawn from.
Gurdjieff said;
"At the moment it is not yet clear to you," G. once said, "that people living on the earth can belong to very different levels, although in appearance they look exactly the same. Just as there are very different levels of men, so there are different levels of art. Only you do not realize at present that the difference between these levels is far greater than you might suppose. You take different things on one level, far too near one another, and you think these different levels are accessible to you.
- In Search of the Miraculous by P.D. Ouspensky"
Connecting the Dots Yet?
AWAKE!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu Food for thought, Master Xeno. We should be watchful of our influences... otherwise, self-destruction awaits.
It seems to me that there was a significant time gap between the end of Empire Strikes Back and the beginning of Return of the Jedi. As a rough guess, I'd say about 3 years. In that time, Luke had a lot to consider. He also had enough lessons from Obi-Wan and Yoda to more or less complete his own training. Man # 5 knows where he's at, knows what he has to do, and is self-motivated enough to achieve his aim. Although, it never hurts to have a Man # 6 occasionally steer him in the right direction.
Master Diabolus is also correct. Star Wars, like The Matrix and The Gospels within the christian bible, are analogies or parables we can use to illustrate nebulous concepts. Our goal is not to shoot force lighting out of our fingertips and into our enemies or dress like Neo. However, from the standpoint of ordinary man, the results stemming from Higher Man's action may look supernatural.
The Cthulhu Cult shall never die!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 17, 2010 12:46:18 GMT -6
cthulhu-cult.com/?p=241Some of this new CoC blog post is a reiteration of my writing here in this thread. Please feel free to comment in either place.
Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by ragnafa on Jul 17, 2010 14:50:35 GMT -6
I have to say this....It's my favorite
Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
The Sith Code..........Awake
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