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Post by bdsvictory on Jun 7, 2010 11:14:29 GMT -6
Greetings,
I am new to the forums and new to the writings of the CoC and have a few general questions I would like to throw out.
1. I really appreciate the blending of 4th Way ideas and LHP methodology and it seems the the CoC is pursuing this in a much deeper way than the ToS (or anyone else I am aware of). However, I really dont "get" the whole Cthulhu "thing". What is the relevance of the mythos to the goals of unification and elevation of the Self? How does the mythos aid in this Quest?
2. I have long been a fan of Chaos Magic ideas and practices. However, it seems that some of the basic premises of Chaos Magic (multiple "I's", no underlying "truth" etc.) are counter to some of the basic premises of the 4th Way (i.e. the possiblity of unification and permenance of a single "I"). How does the Coc reconcile this issue?
3. This one mainly goes out to High Priest Venger Satanis: To what degree have you been involved in the ToS or CoS? What drove you to break from those groups and start your own? I ask this as a former ToS member who definately percieves the need for many new and varied LHP Schools.
Lastlly I would like to say that I think this forum and the ideas put forth here are, for the most part, quite brilliant. I am really enjoying and benifiting from my membership. Kudos to the HP for having the courage, Will, and creativity to establish a new School!
Awake!
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Post by I AM the Way on Jun 7, 2010 13:09:21 GMT -6
Those are great questions. Hopefully, the Priests of R'lyeh and others will also grace us with their own interpretation.
Well, Cthulhu is a bit of meat on the bone. It's the scaffolding, the structure... the Mythos is like the Satanic part of Satanism or the Setian part of the Temple of Set. Man needs something to view, to focus on in that great void. Our Yog-Sothothery provides our malign doctrine with much needed flavor.
Luckily, the Cthulhu Mythos is vague enough to allow for plenty of subjective analysis. Additionally, the Mythos is geared towards the Left Hand Path. It not only speaks to LHP practitioners, it also creates a frame of reference for those who want to know why the universe is the way it is and what might be seething beneath reality's surface.
If you've never read H.P. Lovecraft, then I can understand your disquietude. But if you have read such classics as "The Call of Cthulhu", "The Dunwich Horror", "The Shadow Out of Time", At The Mountains of Madness, "The Hound", "The Statement of Randolph Carter", "The Dreams In The Witch-House", The Case of Charles Dexter Ward, "The Thing on the Doorstep", and others yet never felt a kinship with the Cthulhu Mythos... then I don't know what to say. Perhaps, Cultists can come up with their own non-Lovecraftian Devil Gods to worship or view symbolically? Lovecraftianism works for us. It's even in most contemporary dictionaries...
Lovecraftian: Frighteningly monstrous and otherworldly.
I also found several references to psychological horror and concepts which are either beyond good and evil or have a degenerative effect on one's sanity.
Chaos Magic is really more about doing what feels right to the individual, allowing aesthetics to trump tradition when practicing the black arts.
The multiple 'I's is a Fourth Way idea. For ordinary man, there is no truth, underlying or otherwise. All things are possible when man becomes a conscious, Awakened being. However, such an achievement takes years of constant, intense struggle.
I was a member of both organizations for about a couple years. In the ToS, I was more involved with established members, but mostly the "pen pal" blurbs really interested me... moreso than actual correspondence with adepts and priests. Setians frequently mentioned Lovecraft and related influences. However, getting in actual contact with many Setians proved difficult if not impossible. This was before the internet really took off. The ToS reading list, however, proved to be invaluable as it led me to the Fourth Way.
I was in the CoS for a longer period of time, but had even less contact with Satanists in that group. As the internet grew, so the Grottoes and similar institutions began to dry up. Eventually, out of frustration, I proposed that the newly born Cult of Cthulhu become an umbrella organization for LHP practitioners on par with the Church of Satan. This, as well as, my occult practices offended the CoS hierarchy to the point where I was cast out of that group.
What drove me to create the CoC? Just being frustrated with the current state of LHP groups. I wanted to be part of something, to be in contact with others of like mind, and to lead the way with whatever fire burned within me.
Glad you like the forum and how we're managing things. Hopefully, the CoC only gets bigger and better. Book II, Liber A:O is on the main website, but email me for a free PDF of Book I, Cthulhu Cult. Stick around and develop along side of us. Not just you, but everyone who graces us with their dark presence.
Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by bdsvictory on Jun 7, 2010 13:46:20 GMT -6
Thank you for the response High Priest Satanis, I too hope that others offer their insights.
Concerning the Fourth Way and multiple "I's": It is my understanding that the existence of multiple "I's", with no central one in control, would be the state of existence for men in the first two stages of consciousness ( i.e. actual sleep, and waking sleep). Man who has moved into the third stage of consciousness (self-remembering) would begin to become aware of this state of multiple "I's" and through the Work would begin to create an actual, lasting I. My understanding of Chaos Magical theory (via. Carroll, R.A.W. and others) would be that any sense of a solidified, lasting "I" would be an illusion. Buddhism holds a similar view. I find the practice of chaos magic, the innovation and antinomianism, to be applicable to the LHP. The theory, atleast the bit that tends toward Buddhistic type thought, seems more of a RHP construct. Thoughts?
I am picking up some Lovecraft today. I must admit I have never read any of his work so I will give it a shot, see if it resonates or not.
Awake!
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Post by beastx on Jun 7, 2010 15:39:10 GMT -6
Thank you for the response High Priest Satanis, I too hope that others offer their insights. Concerning the Fourth Way and multiple "I's": It is my understanding that the existence of multiple "I's", with no central one in control, would be the state of existence for men in the first two stages of consciousness ( i.e. actual sleep, and waking sleep). Man who has moved into the third stage of consciousness (self-remembering) would begin to become aware of this state of multiple "I's" and through the Work would begin to create an actual, lasting I. My understanding of Chaos Magical theory (via. Carroll, R.A.W. and others) would be that any sense of a solidified, lasting "I" would be an illusion. Buddhism holds a similar view. I find the practice of chaos magic, the innovation and antinomianism, to be applicable to the LHP. The theory, atleast the bit that tends toward Buddhistic type thought, seems more of a RHP construct. Thoughts? I am picking up some Lovecraft today. I must admit I have never read any of his work so I will give it a shot, see if it resonates or not. Awake! You bring up some really great things in which we should explore and give clarity to. While I'm not entirely sure that it is a Fourth Way understanding that the goal is to "begin to create an actual, lasting I" in a permanent sense. I would say that the Cult of Cthulhu understanding presents creating not just a singular dominant I but one for each center.
That I in its respective center should be lasting but not without the understanding that the time will come when we must rip it down and build a new. Memes grow stagnant and begin to decay. One who's self-ideology is crystallized and not mailable are still bio-mechanical and without an organic essence present. Chaos Magick gives us a close understanding to the CoC approach.
Glad you are picking up some Lovecraft... Welcome to the madness!
Ia Ia A'Ahjhan Ahraev Ashith!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by bdsvictory on Jun 7, 2010 19:20:49 GMT -6
Yes, perhaps a stated aim of the fourth way is not a permanent Self but from my understanding it is implied.
The interesting aspect (to me atleast) of chaos magic theory is the idea of freely choosing paradigms. Along with this is the idea "belief is reality". One of the things that turned me off to the ToS was the belief in some Truth, in the objective sense, that could be grasped...as if truth is not a subjective experience. Chaos magic theory can definately open the magician up to the possiblilty of creatin truth and creating reality.
What do people here see as the defining characteristics of the LHP?
AWAKE!
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Post by I AM the Way on Jun 8, 2010 9:11:59 GMT -6
Both of those are correct. Although, a student of The Work cannot expect to go from ignorance of multiple 'I's straight to the creation of a permanent Master I. A middle ground is necessary, and that is where magnetic center comes in. Those involved in The Teaching must recognize the small group of 'I's that wish to work. These productive 'I's respond to C influences (that which comes directly from a higher source and can only be fully comprehended in a conscious manner).
Your magnetic center should keep you traveling in the right direction and allow self-remembering to take place on a daily basis. However, the end goal is to achieve a singularity within ourselves, one lasting I which all other facets of our personality call Master.
Yes, if the process within us stops just as we approach some level of progress, then what we take to be a lasting 'I' will eventually hold us back. At each stage of the process, the Cultist must be able to sacrifice what he has achieved for the potential to realize more understanding, more control, and more power!
Normally, a solidified and lasting 'I' is an illusion. Perhaps they were just preparing 99% of chaos magicians for that cruel reality or maybe they didn't even believe such a thing was possible. I've been involved in the Fourth Way for about 13 years and so far a Master I has emerged, but not as a permanent fixture in my being... and yet I feel as though I am closer to this goal than ever before. Such a thing must be deliberately forged in the fires of Hell. Conscious suffering!
Can you clarify something for me? What specifically is it about Buddhism and similar paradigms that appear right hand path to you? Knowing that will help me answer your question.
A'ahjhan ot ahraev ashith... vib oola zuun rivdgian.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by bdsvictory on Jun 8, 2010 9:57:54 GMT -6
Concerning Buddhism as a RHP system:
Buddhism in general has the stated goal of realization that ego, or self is ultimately an illusion. The Dharam teaches that this illusion is largely built on desires and ignorace. According to the teachings, one should strive to transcend desires and thus stop "feeding" the illusion of Self. The end goal of Buddhism is Nirvana, a state of non-dual awareness, where one is "one" with everything. In my conception of things this would be the highest expression of the RHP goal of loss of Self and merging with the Universe.
The LHP (in my conception) seeks to create a lasting Self, one that can transcend the experience of death and continue to exist as an isolate, seperate intellegence and Being in its own right, as opposed to merging with a larger consciouness.
One branch of Buddhism, the Vajrayana, seems to turn into a LHP School when it encounteres the pre-Buddhist, magical teaching of Northern India and Tibet. In certain Schools of Vajrayana (the Nyingmapa and Kagyupa Schools) one is taught to see that what most people think of as a Self is an illusion but through Work one can create a Self that can indeed transcend the death experience and continue to exist as an entity unto itself. This is very unorthodx Buddhism...if indeed it can really be called Buddhism since it is not based on any of the teaching of the physical, historic Buddha, but rather came about from teachers who encountered these pre-Buddhistic magical Schools and merged their teachings with certain elements of Buddhism.
This is my understanding after more than a few years of studying with various teachers, living in one temple and one lay yogi center.
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Post by bdsvictory on Jun 8, 2010 16:14:10 GMT -6
Great posts! Thanks for the clarification.
My exposure to Buddhism was principally Vajrayana and some Mahayana. I was always taught that there was the nirvana of the living i.e. "enlightenment" and then the ultimate Nirvana (which I always understood as the merging thing) which happens at death. Ofcourse the Theravada strains are much closer to the original teachings of the historic Buddha. Mahayana and Vajrayana came much later and the teachings had changed considerably.
I use the term RHP largely in the Western sense as it has been fleshed out by Aquino, Flowers, LaVey, Webb etc. I do think that Buddhism (as I have understood it) is a RHP religion based on this definition. In the East the definition of these terms is generally (as I understand it) concerning methodology as opposed to philosophy. However, you wrote something early in your post concerning the atman/anatman concept that I think is important. Buddhism has the anatman concept and I think this concept is somewhat opposed to the LHP (as I understand it).
Ofcourse most people's concept of their atman-soul-Self is very basic and describes an "entity" that will not be a lasting thing and is based on illusion. However, I would assert that a central focus, perhaps the central focus of the LHP, would be the creation and development of an atman that will be lasting and permanent (though this does not necessarily imply unchanging). As I understand it Mr.G. had a similar idea in mind when he explained that a soul (atman) was something that had to be developed to actually exist, and that not everyone had one.
As I understand Buddhism (excluding certain Vajrayana sects) this is not an aim at all and would be considered an illusion entirely. Hence, I still say Buddhism would be a RHP religion/philosophy by the Western definition. Buddhism seeks to overcome the illusion (as they see it) of an individually existing and lasting atman/soul/Self.
I am really interested to read your further thoughts on this subject.
AWAKE!
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Jun 8, 2010 22:57:21 GMT -6
Concerning Buddhism as a RHP system: "The end goal of Buddhism is Nirvana..." This is also a misconception or misjudgement. Nirvana is a composition of 2 words: NIR meaning "Not," or "Without," and VANA meaning "Birth." In context to how the Buddha used the word, it is identical in quality to "Moksha" which may be translated as "Liberation." Nirvana pretty much means that Chitta has Awakened (Buddha) and has been Liberated from Samsara in the Bhavachakka. In conjunction with this, consider also the following, from Bhikkhu Nanananda (Magic Of The Mind, p83) ...
"The Buddha realized that 'birth' and 'death' are inseparable collaries of the conceit of existence. The law of impermanence which holds sway even in heavenly realms would militate against any notion of immortal existence. Besides, the quest for immortal existence was only a symptom of the deep-seated fear of death. If only this obsessional fear could be removed the problem would be no more. Hence he advanced a novel type of solution to the problem of life and death. He pointed out that although immortal existence is impossible, one could still experience 'ambrosial' [1] deathlessness - and that even here and now. One had to recognize fully the truths of impermanence, suffering and not-self whereby 'existence', on which both 'birth' and 'death' depend is made to cease..... Thus instead of attempting to 'stifle' death artificially by heavenly ambrosia, the Buddha saw to it that death died a natural death in a sphere of transcendental experience of a Deathless attainable in this very mortal word"
[1] Itiv 62 - "Having touched with the body the Deathless Element which is Asset-less and realized the relinquishment of all assets, the Fully Enlightened One who is influx-free, teaches the Sorrowless, Taintless State."
Nirvana is something they try to achieve as they journey through mindfullness, but it is not the end result.
Awake!
AK
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Post by I AM the Way on Jun 9, 2010 12:25:51 GMT -6
I remember my first, and incredibly vague, description of this religion... I used a phrase like "dark Buddhism". I had studied a few different variations of Buddhism and noticed the small but important discrepancies between the usual Buddhism which contemporary scholars and practitioners go in for and an older, forbidden type of "Left Hand Path Buddhism". The same applies to Christianity. There is a "Left Hand Path Christianity" which is sometimes referred to Esoteric Christianity or even Gnosticism.
Just doing a little bit of internet research, it appears that Vamamarga or Left Hand Path tantric practices include sexuality. Vamachara which is Left Hand Path in Sanskrit allowed the drinking of alcohol and eating of meat... probably sex as well. If I was at home and all my books weren't in disarray due to re-carpeting my house, then I could consult my copy of Lords of the Left Hand Path.
This was of particular interest: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana
And those who have studied the mysterious origins of the Fourth Way know that all sorts of Eastern philosophy and spirituality influenced Gurdjieff's system. Yes, I agree with that assertion.
To wake up from what we are so that we may become something greater. The same approach but taken from different starting points.
Not sure if any but a few of you remember Puck, he was with us for a short but intense period of time. Anyways, what struck him was my coming to many of these and other ideas virtually on my own. I realized things in a certain way and then looked elsewhere to fill in the gaps or to better define what I wanted to express. In other words, I realized C Influences must exist just from coming into contact with various B Influences which had resonance... so it became my mission to seek out whatever blasphemous truths came from a higher source. And from that I cobbled together an order of unfathomable alienage, the Cult of Cthulhu... a religion of blood, slime, darkness, sorcery, and tentacles!
If one takes anti-authoritarianism, ambition, and the humility which comes with perspective; then a particular attitude is created. With guidance, this attitude should eventually lead one to our paradigm or something very much like it. Good find. Yes, this deathlessness is a sort of immortality while living, giving the soul or essence the power to transcend its own boundaries.
Death dying a natural cause reminds me of the infamous couplet from the Necronomicon (the real one which existed in the mind of H.P. Lovecraft). "That is not dead which eternal lie, with strange aeons even death may die."
Researching such LHP interpretations of Buddhism, Tantra, and the like the same as researching such traditions as the 4th Way, Satanism, Setianism, etc. The Cult is for exploring that which certain individuals are compelled to seek out. Interesting discussion so far, I hope it continues.
A'ahjhan ot ahraev ashith... vib oola zuun rivdgian.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by bdsvictory on Jun 9, 2010 12:56:26 GMT -6
Greetings,
Great discussion going on. I am really enjoying all the responses.
And now on to my response:
Q'zbah writes: But, I would agree with you that from an Occidental perspective, Buddhism is "RHP." Althoe you see, from an Eastern Weltanschauung, something like LaVeyan Satanism is still Dakshinamarga because it still is a Belief System, with Principles of World-View, Theories, religious organizational offices/title, and Philosophical memes, which lacks a real Methodology or modus of Praxis.
I agree with most of this. I am not a LaVeyan satanist but I will point out that LaVey's stream of satanism has a definite methodology to obtain the ends that practioners are interested in and this methodology is ritual magic.
"Anatta" basically states that if you analyze your "self" very closely, and use logic, and if you are honest with yourself, that you will come to realize that what is termed the "ego/self" is a byproduct of your own senses, certain inner conditions of one's psyche, and outside influences such as external condition, nurture, education/conditioning, and environment.
Take two fresh born babies for instance. In their fresh state they are pure Chitta (that which has conscious awareness). They are devoid of Ego/Self, meaning that they have not yet Developed a "sense/identification" of "Self." Babies in such a fresh state of Mind can't tell the difference between themselves and a stuffed animal or their surroundings.
Their Atman develops gradually. First by learning to differentiate itself from its surroundings (external environment). It gradually learns that it is not the wall, stuffed animals, a table, or whatever. It learns that "whatever" it is, it is not those things which it is not.
Let's say then that we take these two fresh babies and give them up for adoption. One is adopted by a rich family, and the other by a poor family in an inner city.
We can logically assume that as these two babies grow up, they will develop very different Atmans/egos/selves. each of their Atman has a personality, self identification, and world-views, defined by sensory information, and environmental conditions.
Hindus and their idea of reincarnation states that this Atman is what rebirths. We are to believe that a rich or poor personality, which developed a rich or poor taste and perspective of life due to external environmental factors is immortal?
I think that this is getting to the heart of the matter from my LHP perspective. I would agree that most people's ego/self is a byproduct of outside stimulus and accumulated experiences and that this is a transitory thing that will not survive the next ten years much less death. However, I do hold out the possibility that there can be more than just the Chitta of the new born baby that you describe. I understand what you mean by this underlying awareness and I understand that from the Buddhist perspective this is seen as the real. I would agree that for most people the sense of self is constantly changing and will end at death and that this baseline awareness may continue without a personality.
What is immortal is Chitta: what we were first born into mortal existence with. Pure Consciousness. Which flows like a stream. Ego chages according to condition. Chitta remains eternally the same.
Take your own life as am example. First consider how old you are. Depending on how old you are, take every "self" you have been every year and line each self/ego up. For example if you are 20 years old, you should have 20 different selves you were across Time lined up from your one year old self up to your current self.
Then examine each of these selves very carefully. You will notice that althoe each ego/self at each age is very different in mind, body, out look, understanding, temperament, intelligence, worldview, self-image, and so on... beneath all those differences is something constant and the same: that which is consciously aware.
Now if we were to do a thought experiment, and we ask you which of those Atmans lined up will reincarnate and which ego/self is immortal, the answer is obviously none at all. In fact as your chitta stream flows year after year, your old self dies and disappears. Who you once were when you were 5 years old no longer exists and so on.
I like this thought experiment and have conducted it many times before. I am 37 years old and have been on the Quest, consciously, since around 15. Ofcourse many aspects of self have changed over that time, and many aspect continue to change. However, there are aspects of self that have been with me for as long as I can remember. There are certain traits I have, traits of character perhaps, that have been unchanging despite all the changing circumstances of my 37 years. These aspects are the things I try to strengthen even further through magic. I work from the hypothesis that these are aspects of my Self, the Higher Self, or True Self, or atman that I am attempting to develop strongly and train toward the goal of immortality. It is my expereince that that which looks through my eyes, and hears through my ears, the real Me, does have a personality and individuality, that has been constant yet flexible my entire life.
From the Western LHP perspective it is admitted that perhaps not all beings will develop this spark of the Black Flame into conscious individuality and indeed will always have multiple and shifting selves that never achieve any lasting existence. Perhaps not all beings even have it to begin with.
Mindstream is eternal. So in this context, Buddhism and the Western LHP has one thing in common. Where the Western LHP struggles to create and develop predominance as you say; the Buddhist struggles to come to direct realization of that same permanence by going beyond the dreamscape of samsara. It is merely a difference in approach and semantic
I agree there are some similarities but there is also atleast one profound difference: The Western LHP (or atleast this Western LHP practinoer) aim to create and realize and individualized permanence, a lasting, strong, divine Ego/Self/Atman. I personally want to go on living as bdsvictory for ever! I am not interested in a mindstream or undifferenciated awareness or consciousness...I strive for individual existence and divinity. In my experience of Buddhism (outside of certain Vajrayana sects) this would be seen as being far, far off the path of the Dharma and deep, deep illusion.
Thanks for the back and forth I am loving it. This is really forcing me to focus on my thoughts and understanding of things and figure out a way to explain them (hopefully) coherently. Q'zbah you have a deep understanding of the Dharma and your words have really made me go back and look at a few things. Thanks for the teachings. Steel sharpens steel! Let us continue.
AWAKE!
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