|
Post by jameson on Nov 5, 2006 18:33:15 GMT -6
I am a day dreamer by default and my imaginings inpire me to write and paint.I find however imagination may have another potential use in breaking the constraints of language which we adhere to so much.Ppl tend to think in language but I find the problem with this is that once one learns how to think as a result of language,thinking in language is a limitation as language is limited in what it can express.In order to connect with higher frames of thought it would be necessary to ditch this weight.This is the arguement to support the exercise I present to u.
Use your imagination.Everyday we imagine scenarios that may happen and occur.Some of us visualize and experience these possibilities and others of us can only use dialogue.For those who experience life and scenarios from the imagination through visaul and sounds try this.Make up a story where two characvters exchange dialogue.Now make them speak the idea they want or u want them to potray in gibberish.U will understand this gibberish and the ideas expressed without the common vernacular.This will loosen the constraints a bit.Now try it where the characters establish an instantaneous understanding and dont use language.The thought is still expressed is it not?
|
|
|
Post by I AM the Way on Nov 5, 2006 20:06:04 GMT -6
hmm... that's an awfully strange exercise, jameson. although i know what you're trying to say and i agree.
it might be a good idea to break imagination down into two groups. good imagination and bad imagination.
good imagination is directed, purposeful, and Willed.
bad imagination is accidental, it is something that happens to you, it takes hold of you when you could struggle to be conscious. it is part of the illusions we are immersed in daily.
use your visualization, but don't let it use you... because it will. the universe will keep you suffering in its dreamworld.
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priestwww.CultofCthulhu.net
|
|
|
Post by jameson on Nov 6, 2006 5:02:43 GMT -6
I agree.The bad imaginings are those of perhaps the ppl you work with or strained interactions.The good ones perhaps are the ones where you are free to create just as a writer or director.I generally create characters with thier own personalities,goals and desires in a fantastic world of science fiction and ocultism.Quite useful so long as u remain in control.
|
|
|
Post by youma on Dec 6, 2006 21:15:30 GMT -6
Yet...
How do you tell exactly where is the limit between the two? How far do you control creativity, when inspiration comes regardless of will? It may be summoned at times, but at others it will come no matter what (or refuse to come, but it's easier to force than to prevent)
|
|
|
Post by setnacht on Dec 7, 2006 7:35:07 GMT -6
As long as one doesnt care what he puts into his subconscious, one cant be sure what pops up(regardless of will).
We really have to take care what we feed our subconscious with, because there is the place where magic happens all the time!!! We will inevitably get what our subcinscious is filled with.
The subconscious is like a magnetic center that attracts things that correspond with what it contains.
A.O.Spare wrote "Magic is ones natural ability to attract without asking"
But do we take care of ourselves?? Or do we allow the junk in our subconscious to attract things that may harm us??
Setnacht
|
|
|
Post by I AM the Way on Dec 7, 2006 13:07:02 GMT -6
yes, Neuro-Linguistic Programing is well aware of the subconscious' affect on the concious mind and reality.
we are who we tell ourselves we are. if you repeat a phrase, visualize an event, or concentrate on a sigil... then that idea will embed itself in a magician's subconscious mind. this leads the mage to a new state of being.
hopefully, the magician is wise enough to fill his subconsious with fruitful things rather than self-defeating garbage.
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priestwww.CultofCthulhu.net
|
|
|
Post by jameson on Dec 7, 2006 17:41:50 GMT -6
The funny thing about the imagination is that things loose control fast.A simple fantasy be it sexual or adventurous can have influence if you think about it.From what I think as long as one realizes it for what it is,entertainment/recreation,one may not need to worry too much.In these imaginings it is important to align oneself with the most properous character or to manipulate the movements of the characters as symbols.This is only from a magickal pov however.
My delvings into the great fantasies as a child only caused the problem of not paying attention in class but I was a smart ass anyway ;D and associations which developed into delusions in the past.As I said,things can get out of hand if one is not mindful of self or forgets they are simply watching.
|
|
|
Post by setnacht on Dec 8, 2006 14:59:46 GMT -6
NLP is a very useful and powerful tool, but i didnt have NLP in mind when i wrote my post.
I believe that we are creators all the time. Every human being. We can decide to either control our creative powers or we can let them run wild!
I believe that we literally create the world we see!! (not just interpret what is already there) From this perspective, it is very interesting to consider the 'real' world as our dream. This is not a metaphor for me..... This life is a dream!! Once awake and conscious within that dream, we are like gods!!
Hail Satan!!
Setnacht
|
|
|
Post by youma on Dec 8, 2006 16:47:44 GMT -6
«We really have to take care what we feed our subconscious with, because there is the place where magic happens all the time!!! We will inevitably get what our subcinscious is filled with.»
Ah ok that you guys meant. Sorry I didn't understand it at first. Makes sense.
|
|
|
Post by I AM the Way on Dec 8, 2006 17:01:21 GMT -6
the thread kind of morphed into another discussion. the limit between the two? conscious (good) imagination is directed by you, it obeys your Will. unconscious (bad) imagination is not directed by you, it runs through you automatically (like random firings in a machine); you obey the Will of nature.
it is difficult to do both, to force an idea into your head and to prevent unwanted thoughts. but when we observe ourself and try to Awake, we must attempt both of these things.
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priestwww.CultofCthulhu.net
|
|
|
Post by jameson on Dec 8, 2006 18:31:41 GMT -6
An example may be due.If you work with other ppl bad imagination will pick apart and attempt to calculate how others may react to you and whether they may say something nasty or nice.No one want to focus on such trivial nonsense but unless one constantly monitors oneself petty negativities will surface."Oh look at this woman,who does she think she is?She probably...etc"Gossip for example
Positive imagination is when one has characters interacting in thier mind in such a way that you narrate the story.You make the cartoon.You write the script.It is this imagination of infinite possibility where communication between two sources are not limited by language and character can speak silently and know simultaneously.We can focus on the fact that this knowing occurs and our mind may be guided by the focused aspect.Lovecrafts works can be an example.
Self observation eliminates the neccesity to worry about such nonsense such as negative imaginings.Anything from constantly analyzing what u are doing at the moment,to even focusing on heartbeat or breathing will shut this out or create an environment where it cant thrive.Going into self controlled flights of fancy can do this as well.
|
|
|
Post by setnacht on Dec 9, 2006 2:43:33 GMT -6
I think that there is such a thing like 'good' or 'bad' imagination. 'Good' and 'Bad' are labels that are given by ourselves and that are relative.
To label something 'good' or 'bad' depends on the purpose we pursue!! There's just imagination. Not more!!
But if we want to control our imagination, 'bad' imagination would be imagination that we do not control then.
If i want to have some kind of freestyle-pathworking into my subconscious, then uncontrolled imagination is 'good'.
Setnacht
|
|
|
Post by youma on Dec 9, 2006 10:58:14 GMT -6
To summarise, then, the judgement on wether imagination is good or bad does not concern its process, be it conscious or subconscious, but its object, which is generally better being controlled, lest it hinder its more productive work. Correct?
About the original topic of language in thought, I think it's actually useful as long as we're not bound to it. I used never to think in words - not by any disciplin but because it seemed natural that way - but while I find it faster and more flexible, I had little language skills and it's easier to get distracted. So I think in words when I need greater concentration or in situations where I could have to talk to someone. Even then, I realise that there are blanks in those mental phrases, I think it happens to everybody, you want to say something and suddently you realise you don't know the word, though it didn't feel missing when you thought it, or sometimes languages are mixed depending on which translates something better. In my case anyway, if I'm thinking idly and paying attention to the phrasing my brain comes up with, I realise it makes little sense, it's probably just the way our brain practices speaking, like playing and dreaming train other parts of the brain, because it's not the actual thought.
|
|