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Post by Yevathik on Jun 9, 2007 0:39:18 GMT -6
Dear vladimir,
I hope you like to read text.
P.S. would you describe yourself as completely fire-resistant? Or just extremely fire-resistant?
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Post by JJ Burke on Jun 9, 2007 5:36:34 GMT -6
azathoth is important, but not in any kind of useful way. being the 'blind idiot demon sultan,' azathoth is the cause and the source of our chaotic reality.. but not a consciousness in any sense we would understand. more like a force of nature.
yog-sothoth, on the other hand, is described as the all-knowing transcendent consciousness, the key and the gate and the alpha and the omega and so forth. if you want a supreme deity type thing 'supervising' the mythos, yog-sothoth seems to fit the bill.
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Post by I AM the Way on Jun 9, 2007 9:06:10 GMT -6
thanks for starting this thread vladimir.
my answer here is probably going to be disappointingly simplistic for you, i'm afraid. i want to believe in them, so i've decided that they will be treated/taken as real by me. that's it. in realms such as chaos magic, quantum physics, and neuro-linguistic programing, my logic makes sense. it's a purely subjective reality dominating "objective reality" which may or may not exist.
i have to agree with JJ Burke. just because Azathoth is the core, that doesn't make him the leader (and thus) worth worshiping. however, he may be supreme... and any Cultist may focus on Azathoth to the exclusion of other deities if he wishes. don't make no never mind to me.
Yog-Sothoth is indeed the key and the gate, in whom all are one. i consider Yog-Sothoth to be a tool or direction or answer. not the first step, but certainly important down the road.
Cthulhu, however, seems to be the most connected to humanity. he is the sleeper, and He creates the initial contact between those sensitive individuals and Himself. for both Cthulhu and men, Awakening is the first crucial step. without waking up, all the power and knowledge in the world isn't going to be worth a damn. in the beginning, we are asleep and dreaming just like Cthulhu. as He Awakens, so do we... if sufficient effort is put forth.
Cthulhu is also considered to be a fire sign (by me and others). He is dominant, aggressive, and struggling against things as they are; He is proactive. that is why our Drowned Lord is the best choice as leader, master, and savior.
but the Cthulhu Mythos is an anti-mythos and nothing concrete or conclusive can be drawn from Lovecraft's writings alone. so feel free to interpret the Mythos as you see fit.
any other questions, please ask.
VS
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Post by I AM the Way on Jun 11, 2007 15:47:48 GMT -6
indeed. radical subjectivism.
yes, Captain Picard from Star Trek is potentially just as valid a God as Lovecraft's Old Ones. there is something objective waiting in the wings, however... a transcendental truth which Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlathotep and the like represent. i think this gives the Cthulhu Mythos a substantive power over existing symbols, metaphors, and archetypes.
VS
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Post by Yevathik on Jun 11, 2007 22:24:22 GMT -6
So my impression here is that you believe that reality is completely subjective? What if someone chose to embrace Captain Picard from Star Trek as his God, would that be just as valid? Or is there something that makes the Lovecraftian beings more potent? What, you've never heard of a trekkie?
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Post by luxcthonis on Aug 29, 2007 12:57:45 GMT -6
Reading this thread I had many ideas to squirtch out, but found them to be presented in later posts, so no need to re-hash. There is only one question that I must now bring up and that is regarding Cthulhu as being identified with fire. I trust the judgement of the congregation here, so i am sure it is well founded, but I read that Cthulhu is a identified with water, as well as Scorpio (this can be found in a document which is conveniently found in the files of the yahoo group...hold on..."Cults of Cthulhu by Frater Tenebrous XII") thats not where I found it first, but it is there. Any green light to shed? Lvx, -M.
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Post by I AM the Way on Aug 29, 2007 13:38:51 GMT -6
anyone is free to assign or attribute anything to the A:O. because Cthulhu as octopoid / squid features and currently resides in the ocean, He has been given water element characteristics. as someone pointed out a few years ago, why would Cthulhu be imprisoned by the water if He was a natural water sign?
so, decide for yourself. however, i feel that Cthulhu should be represented by fire (of the four elements). that's the only green light i can shed for now.
VS
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Post by sxt701 on Aug 29, 2007 15:23:53 GMT -6
the lovecraftian gods do hold a place that coensides with different aspects of nature. the forces that are and have always been and so on. where as Cpt. Picard is an obviously fictional charater made for T.V., the A:O are simbols of forces almost totaly beyond the comprehension of sentient beings. as for Cthulhu and any atributing elemental properties....hell I don't know, I suppose there is evidense of water atributes. he has Cthuloid subjects that are somewhat "fishy" in nature, but this could be because of a need for them underwater in R'lhey. it's anyones guess...for the moment.
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Post by luxcthonis on Aug 31, 2007 13:11:33 GMT -6
Yes, I see. We are dealing with subjects that are left in the dark, and hoped by humankind never to be uncovered, so it is no wonder that, with all the progress that has been made, there are yet ares which are grey, or undecided. As LaVey pointed out, we are dealing with subject matter which is yet in darkness simply because no one has bothered to take them OUT of that darkness. Water, Fire, I suppose, when it comes down to it, the A:O are themselves above our material elements anyhow. much Lvx has indeed been shed, and progress is made with each word, and disseminated idea. -M.
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Post by huscarle on Sept 3, 2007 8:37:55 GMT -6
I don't think that Frater Lovecraft attributed elements to any of the Old Ones (certainly not in any of his Lore that I have read) I believe Derleth did in his interpretations of the Mythos. In his short story The Return of Hastur he singles out Cthulhu as a Water Being but as has been previously posted on other threads it seems inappropriate. VS points out that why would he be restrained under water if he was of the Water school. Again like VS suggests Fire is a far more appropriate element for Great Cthulhu as is the planet Mars which fits in with his Destructive Warrior God aspect (something Tyson also states in his Necronomicon).
From a personal viewpoint though I would be unhappy working with the Old Ones as elemental representatives as I feel this method can be relatively constraining or limiting and the Old Ones go against all of that- as personifications of untamed Nature in it's destructive uncontrollable force, or Above/Beyond Nature.
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Post by luxcthonis on Sept 4, 2007 11:19:11 GMT -6
Hmm, I definetely agree on some points, elemental concepts being restrictive and all, quite. But I am a Scorpio, and if I am correct Scorpio is ruled by the planets Mars and Pluto; Scorpio is also a water sign. Perhaps I just love the idea of Cthulhu being so connected to me in a personal way such as this, for in the aformentioned text of Frater Tenebrous XII, the Lord is given all of these characteristics (both Scorpio and Water). But I nevertheless, also agree that, being Chaos Gods, their very nature is opposed to elemental structuring. Quite *insane* that our Gods, whether as concepts or entities, appear to be all things at once...in flux. Anyhow, I just wanted to add that although mars is indicative of fire, it is also one of the ruling planets of Scorpio a water sign. That is unless they've changed it. Come to think of it, I read somewhere else I believe that other planets were assigned to Scorpio (perhaps because They no longer consider Pluto to be a planet proper {Hans Hoerbiger anyone?}). They're always changing shit, haha! Mankind will change, but the Gods will never change. Just fluctuate. Lvx, -M.
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Post by jameson on Sept 4, 2007 19:50:12 GMT -6
From a personal viewpoint though I would be unhappy working with the Old Ones as elemental representatives as I feel this method can be relatively constraining or limiting and the Old Ones go against all of that- as personifications of untamed Nature in it's destructive uncontrollable force, or Above/Beyond Nature. Good point,it certainly would take the fun out of it to use them purely as elements.Though Im aching to attribute gemini to something ;D I must say now that I am actually getting more familiar with this and chosing it as a valid personal belief, it has had some degree of impact on the world as I experience it now.For a while I honestly didn't care for it as many of you know but bored with nihilism (actually rock bottom miserable) I adopted it and I have to say I'm impressed.I've overcome a few phobias and come up with plausible explanations for a few strange events in my life. Things previously indigestible are more tangible subjectively.The symbols coincide seamlessly with the extremely strange life I live anyways.Unlike Christianity or mainstream Satanism it gives us something the others lack-A real sense of mystery and an ability to accept the bizarre,the random and the strange.
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Post by JJ Burke on Sept 16, 2007 22:11:03 GMT -6
if darrick was agreeing with my post, the answer would be yog-sothoth.
a point about cthulhu and water: i'm not aware of anything that says water is responsible for cthulhu's imprisonment. for all we know, it's something about the architecture of r'lyeh or, as the mantra goes, something to do with the stars. or maybe cthulhu just feels like being down there. who can say?
the 'who can say' is the beauty part of the cthulhu mythos. assigning human symbology like fire/water/wind/earth is misguided, if you ask me. but i realize the CoC draws its influences from other sources in addition to hpl's writing, so i don't really have an argument.
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Madguten
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Post by Madguten on Sept 17, 2007 3:22:04 GMT -6
I am sure i remember something about Cthulhu being imprisoned in water.
As i remember, before R'læ sunk, the visions of Cthulhu were more powerful, but as it sunk and he with it, his visions became blocked by the water so only the most sensitive of people (occultists/psychics/artists and so on) could be reached by his visions.
I'll try to find it, in a book. I actually think its in "The Call of Cthulhu" but im not sure.
Anyway i think that water is relevant in regards to Cthulhu no matter if it imprisons him or not. It has been his home for ages.
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Post by luxcthonis on Sept 24, 2007 14:47:52 GMT -6
In light of my recent research and inductive study, Yog-Sothoth seems to be the neutral Supreme God, while Azathoth is it's counterpart, set up to be the force of opposition in all things. Together these work to enforce the [illusion] of duality in all religions, and/or perhaps more appropriately, that which has been termed "race-memories." -H.
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Post by I AM the Way on Sept 24, 2007 14:59:23 GMT -6
i could see where Azathoth might be dark matter or even anti matter...
i don't know about Yog-Sothoth being neutral or supreme though. all the Old Ones should probably be considered active and roughly equal in power and stature (even though some may be better known or have alternative dominions).
VS
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Post by jameson on Sept 24, 2007 21:27:20 GMT -6
Duality in my opinion is the very components of man.Were made up of the most combustible components Carbon,Oxygen,Hydrogen and Nitrogen.Yet at the very same time we are told that the body is mostly made up of water.One can also argue these elements are of the Earth or Air but this is my observation.Dualism for us is by design.Of course yes,this may very well be attributed to the blind idiot god Azathoth.
Working with Azathoth or calling it out from the blue in the altered state is not advised unless you like pain LOL
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Post by nyarlathotep2007 on Dec 17, 2007 3:44:00 GMT -6
Azathoth, the Yellow One, should only be worshipped as a means of becoming the perfect sorcerer, as he is the sorcerer of the Old Ones, who constantly sits in the middle of the Abyss, constantly questioning and studying the ideas, believes, and disorder of chaos, whereas Cthulhu is the High Priest, the religious leader of the Old Ones (if you will), and Yog-Sothoth is simply the gate, the key, and the balance of time. Yog-Sothoth is most likely the spiritual opposite of Azathoth. Azathoth is about chaos, disorder, and destruction. But Yog-Sothoth, he is about perfect balance and equilibrium. Everything goes in order for him.
(i.e. Past, Present, Future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth) (Yog-Sothoth is the gate and the key. He knew where the Old Ones came from before and where they shall return).
Those passages in parenthesis are direct quotes from the Necronomicon. He is not only the gate and the key. Another good title for him would be, "Master of Time and Space."
With this in mind, he not only is going to be freed, he is also in charge of when events occur and can move through time and space without limits, as he is the "All-In-One."
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Post by nyarlathotep2007 on Dec 17, 2007 3:53:00 GMT -6
Sadly, Yog-Sothoth cannot act entirely on his own when dealing with time and space. He has to wait for Dagon to awaken Cthulhu before he can do anything. In the black-letter edition of the Necronomicon, the mad Arab states that the planets must align in a perfect row before the Old Ones can be released. In the past hundred years, this stellar phenomenon has only occured twice.
Once with the arrival of Haley's Comet and everyone thought it was the end of the world. The second time was before the tsunami that occured a year or two ago that shifted the axis of the planet which not only made the days shorter, but altered the weather in certain ways.
This hypothesis would certainly account for the weather anomolies and mass hysteria that encircles the entire globe at the moment. Since this phenomenon is mentioned in the Necronomicon, it is completely related to the period before the Old Ones are freed.
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Post by nyarlathotep2007 on Dec 17, 2007 4:01:47 GMT -6
Sorry if I'm boring anyone. I just wanted to make sure that I covered the majority of things in question.
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Post by Yahn'ikthorn on Dec 17, 2007 4:05:06 GMT -6
You definitely are not boring me. Thank you for the information.
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Post by iconoclasm on Dec 17, 2007 8:48:28 GMT -6
Ahh I admit I was confused on the differences of Yog Sototh and Azathoth.Thanks for clearing it up,I feel i understand a little more now.
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Post by nyarlathotep2007 on Dec 17, 2007 15:38:19 GMT -6
Good. If Darrick would allow it, I'd have a library section on here with all of my research, which is quite extensive, as I have all copies of the Necronomicon with the exception of the Latin, Greek, Arabic Original, and Tyson editions. The first three are lost/destroyed and the last one isn't really a grimoire.
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Post by nyarlathotep2007 on Dec 17, 2007 15:39:52 GMT -6
Also if he would allow it, anyone interested could e-mail me at james_15_2005@yahoo.com and I would send them a copy.
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 17, 2007 15:42:45 GMT -6
i don't think a library section would be feasible.
Venger Satanis High Priest
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Post by nyarlathotep2007 on Dec 17, 2007 15:44:06 GMT -6
Of the black-letter edition and the diagrams.
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Post by nyarlathotep2007 on Dec 17, 2007 15:49:19 GMT -6
More or less, it would just be a section to keep the different versions of the Necronomicon and other Grimoires related to it. That way it would be easier to get the materials which is difficult for the majority of people interested in Chaos Magick, Satanism, and HP Lovecraft to find. That's all. They would be able to go on there and find the majority of grimoires related to the Necronomicon which is extremely difficult to find.
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Post by Yahn'ikthorn on Dec 17, 2007 15:51:44 GMT -6
Some kind of a library for books that are free to distribute (old enough, etc.) could be perhaps added to the site in some format in the future I think, but that's not my decision... would save some trouble for cultists trying to find them elsewhere. Although a person who really wants to read something will find it himself.
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Post by nyarlathotep2007 on Dec 17, 2007 15:52:33 GMT -6
The only other Necronomicon-Related Grimoire I couldn't find is the Book of Eibon.
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Post by Yahn'ikthorn on Dec 17, 2007 15:55:11 GMT -6
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