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Post by harlequinshaitan on Nov 4, 2006 12:02:43 GMT -6
From Venger Satanis (a reposted myspace bulletin)
From Mr. Christian
My Response:
Did you know that Christ was a worshiper of the Great Old Ones? He served Cthulhu in the desert wastes, waiting for Him to rise again and Awaken the disciples of darkness!
I believe that Christ is reborn as Venger Satanis, our High Priest. He is the Way...
Harlequin Shaitan Herald of the Old Gods
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Post by setnacht on Nov 4, 2006 14:01:35 GMT -6
Well, first off, i really like Venger Satanis!!!! But harlequin...there are two ways. You have either a good sense of humor(i hope it is so) or you mean your post serious. Reborn christ?? Let me ask you from satanist to satanist: Do you really want another person you can follow after? Or are you the god you are meant to be, creating your own universe, your own laws, morals and ethics? Damn, i really hope it is just your humor. ;D Greetings, Setnacht
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Post by harlequinshaitan on Nov 4, 2006 16:43:39 GMT -6
Hello Setnacht,
The above quote is from another post of yours. I thought it was especially apt because I don't believe in a Satanic/Christian duality either. Myths, legends, and archetypes are useful no matter where they come from. I use Christian trappings just as I use bits and pieces from Crowley, Spare, and LaVey.
I also believe that one needs a model to follow in life. Sometimes this may be a model of one's ideal self, other times it's a person whom you admire. Regardless, everyone follows something in this world. Since I think High Priest Venger Satanis is on the right track, I consider him my spiritual guide. So yes, I choose to follow him just as Christians follow Jesus Christ.
While I do have a sense of humor, I'm serious about this. If VS told me to jump in a lake, then would I do it? No, probably not. However, I feel that he is an esteemed magical colleague whom I can learn much from.
Harlequin Shaitan Herald of the Old Gods
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Post by setnacht on Nov 5, 2006 12:23:55 GMT -6
Harlequin, first off, i hope you don't feel attacked or insulted by my post!! We are both followers of the LHP. There are two things in your post i'd like to comment. I have a serious problem with this statement. Christians follow with blind faith, an attitude that is deadly for satanists. We ought to believe nothing and question everything!! We shouldn't follow someone, it doesn't matter who it is. BUT we can have rolemodels we can learn from, people that guide us for a while, who teach us things we don't know yet. That leads me to the second point i want to quote. I totally agree!!! I have several rolemodels i get lots of inspiration from.... Among these are: Austin Osman Spare Dschuang Dsi (a taoist sage) Nietzsche (yes...it's trendy for a satanist to quote Nietzsche...but very seldom does a satanist really know what Nietzsche is all about) Hermann Hesse Harlequin, i am looking forward to lots of fruitful discussions!!! Take care, Setnacht ;D
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 5, 2006 12:28:04 GMT -6
i merely stand upon the shoulders of They Who Have Come Before...
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priestwww.CultofCthulhu.net
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Post by harlequinshaitan on Nov 6, 2006 21:12:37 GMT -6
Not at all. I welcome fresh perspectives. You are correct when you say that blind faith is foolish. The word follow has certain connotations, some of them quite negative to free thinkers such as ourselves. I consider my "following" High Priest Venger Satanis as a Sith apprentice would follow a Sith Lord. Or a martial arts student would follow a Ninjitsu Master. I follow his lead, I am ready to learn from him, and I support him when able. There are not many individuals I would follow. Make no mistake, I keep my wits about me! I also look down upon those "Satanists" who willingly prostrate themselves, flagellate themselves before a sadistic overseer which they see as the Devil. I suppose they have the right to take pleasure in their ideological masochism, but it still leaves a foul taste in my mouth. Harlequin Shaitan Herald of the Old Gods
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Post by thehereticsaint13 on Nov 11, 2006 17:13:42 GMT -6
FOLLOW period is such a dirty word *L* Though, on the "following" note, the Sith Lord reference leads me to believe that the "follower" is just waiting to learn enough to snipe out the "teacher" and take over *LOL* Is that how it's meant? Or is it rather more like the Socrates and Plato relationship, wheras the "follower" does so with only the hopes to enlighten their existence? I'm so curious, because there are so many..."satanists", but they all seem to be mostly the people that were goth-topic kids and think suicide is cool, and are just trying to embrace a socially unnerving culture and ideal in some half-assed attempt to get some revenge, vindication, or hell, even validaition in their life, and usually end up being like some macrame wearing vegan like 3 months later...no conviction at all...
So I've not really had the pleasure of chatting with some, well it least seems, like some people who are serious in their beliefs and philosophies...
AND as for the people who willingly prostrate themselves, and flagellate themselves before a sadistic overseer which they see as the Devil...
...well...that reminds me too much of my last ex...the evil bitch...*LMFAO*
But all seriousness aside...Flagellation can be fun if you do it right *LMFAO*
So how about some enlightenment on what a "Satanist" really is?
XIII
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Post by harlequinshaitan on Nov 11, 2006 19:06:43 GMT -6
Well, the word 'follow' doesn't really bother me. I'd much rather follow something or someone I had chosen myself than wander around aimlessly without path or purpose.
I suppose my relation to the High Priest would be more like Socrates and Plato. However, in my opinion a Sith apprentice should spend most of his life learning from the Sith Master. There's no reason why they can't cooperate like father and son. If the apprentice must break from his Master, then he should go his own way. One doesn't strike one's Master down just because the divide between them has gotten narrower!
Harlequin Shaitan Herald of the Old Gods
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Post by thehereticsaint13 on Nov 12, 2006 14:41:09 GMT -6
Yes, it does mean he must strike their master down, my dear Harlequin, and I know you're gonna ask why, so here goes: The have to because that is the "nature" of the Sith philosophy. There can never be a true father and son connection, because that is weakness. And there is no "divide" that gets narrower, in fact, the closer they become, the more the need to strike down the master becomes. For a Sith's nature is very evil, and self-serving, and there can be NO allowance for weakness. They must strike down all that are too close, or stand in their way *L* It just goes with the principles of the Sith. God...I feel like such a nerd now, I'm waxing the intellectual on the doctrines of Star Wars characters...but anyway, there you are. We may say there is no reason for people to do things the way they do, but you always have to look at beliefs of the people that are in question, and also know how strong their conviction is. Because for your paradigm, there is no reason for them to do what they do. But for there paradigm, there IS NO "other" choice. Will changing their paradigm solve this bullheadedness? NOPE! For if their conviction is strong, you won't be able to shatter their view on the world. And if their conviction is lacking, well...that's just like pulling the strings on a puppet. Changing their view is probably an hourly occurance, and not at all meaningful.
And yes, I have to agree with you, following someone/something you have freely chosen is better than wandering aimlessly without path or purpose. But I have always been a firm believer in the idea that you're never really lost, if you're headed nowhere. Just because a destination isn't always known at first, doesn't always mean that one is aimless without path or purpose. Why must you be headed somewhere in paticular? Why can't we just be headed everywhere instead? Or even anywhere for that matter? The purpose? To see what there is to see, of course, and maybe nothing more than that. You are not aimless, for there is a destination, and there is purpose. So one mustn't always need to 'follow' for validation. Just "being" is enough, and has a bit more of a distinct path than I think you realize. Anymore questions?
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Post by harlequinshaitan on Nov 14, 2006 20:09:49 GMT -6
I don't believe so. How could a civilization based on backstabbing ever flourish? Just because the Sith are evil doesn't mean they are rash, bloodthirsty, ingrates who can't see the Big Picture.
Rare is the person with a path, and finding a person on the correct path is even rarer.
Harlequin Shaitan Herald of the Old Gods
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Post by thehereticsaint13 on Nov 15, 2006 3:46:31 GMT -6
I don't believe so. How could a civilization based on backstabbing ever flourish? Just because the Sith are evil doesn't mean they are rash, bloodthirsty, ingrates who can't see the Big Picture. Rare is the person with a path, and finding a person on the correct path is even rarer.
Harlequin Shaitan Herald of the Old Gods *LMFAO* What know you then of the Nature of Evil? Of course it means they are rash, bloodthirsty, ingrates, and the only big picture they see is theirs. Yeah it seems shallow at first, cut down to it's base primary components. Everything is shallow once you cut them down to their base primary components. Everyone is rash bloodthirsty ingrates. But it is the extent to which they will go to get what they want. Power. And they will crush all that stand in their way. It's the nature of it. Yes, rare is the person with a path, but WHO among us is to say which path is solely correct? From what I hear... It's not the path that matters... It's the destination... As VS has said before...we are on the same page, but reading from a different book... So no ONE "path" is right... ONLY the destination...
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Post by thehereticsaint13 on Nov 15, 2006 3:53:32 GMT -6
And to answer how could a civilization based on backstabbing flourish? LOOK THE AROUND YOU!!!! The U.S. of good'ol'damn A. was THOUGHT, BUILT, FOUNDED, and, most importantly on BACKSTABBING. Welcome to this great nation, PURE proof that a civilization can flourish. Because just because they do screw each other over, doesn't mean they are STUPID and will destroy each other before they get ALL that they can out of them...
OH no...knowing WHEN to bury the knife is the key my friend...
Take the U.S.A....
We didn't screw the Russians over till We new for DAMN sure we got all that we needed out of them, and then we left them in financial ruin, AFTER leading to the slaughter of 6 generations of russians, using them as a human shield, with promises of freedom and prosperity.
Please don't expect me to believe that the world is all kiss ass and nice to each other?
The Sith are a social commentary on Old Money, and Big Business...
So it does work, capitilism is FOUNDED on it.
Next?
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 15, 2006 12:48:46 GMT -6
if this is true, then how can you possibly condone it? the Cult of Cthulhu works against this world. backstabbing may lead to instant gratification, but will ultimately end in tears.of course not. the Republic epitomizes old money and big business, not the Sith. that is exactly why they could be duped... their greed, insecurity, and weakness allowed them to be manipulated.
the Sith is not a social commentary on such American (nay, earthly) values. how crass, how low, how base! the Sith, in my mind, are a noble and wise race that struggles to overcome the petty politics and social climbing of more pedestrian species. Palpatine went into politics because he wanted to infiltrate the Republic's rotting bureaucracy.
i believe George Lucas and Star Wars writers focused on the frequent Sith betrayals to the exclusion of all else. remember that evil loses. in the movies, Darth Vader turns back to good, the Emperor dies, and the good guys save the day! is that the reality you seek? evil cultures must live with laws, honor, and ethics. otherwise, they might as well be your average human savage.
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priestwww.CultofCthulhu.net
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Post by setnacht on Nov 16, 2006 2:10:44 GMT -6
Just in case you are interested in an alternative Star-Wars story, written by a satanist, focussing on the sith, this one is definitely for all of you: www.xeper.org/maquino/nm/DarkSide.pdfYou'll like it!!! May the force be with you!! Hail Satan!! Setnacht
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Post by jameson on Nov 18, 2006 2:14:29 GMT -6
Its unrelated but just a question.Why have a path or purpose?Life has no purpose and nor can we know of a purpose of a universe that is sometimes real and isnt. [glow=red,2,300] (Dissociation occurs in his mind as always as the rant of a blind man awakened for just a second begins.Bear with him)[/glow]
Does the ego of man need to feel important?Does this create the need of a purpose,of a path?Maybe Im just nihilistic or idiotic of course I dont look down on any of your choices nor judge them.I simply question them.
[glow=red,2,300](Self analysis)[/glow]
I just feel no freedom going in a direction or path or discipline.Sponataeniety,destruction,creation at random for no purpose is good enough for me.Of course with such freedom may come misery of being dissociated from the pathological trance of paradigm and having to suffer under the weight of the enormously highest level of finity borderline infinity.
[glow=red,2,300](Deeper now)[/glow] Ppl use gods like allah or jhvh or satan or cthulhu (Some ppl) as an excuse or motivation to kill.Or perhaps the illusion of manhood or betrayal drives them.Many do this but few other than the Satanist will admit to doing so just to do it.In fACT ALL KILL WITH NO PURPOSE,THEY KILL AS They THEY DO,THEY SIMPLY GIVE IT A PURPOSE TO JUSTIFY THIER ACTIONS.What do humans hide from,do they need philosophies or anything for that matter to justify thier actions?Does justification allow them to recognize that they did the act to accept the act?Is the line between the norm and the diagnosed insane simply motive and not the act itself?Forgive me but I find it a little disagreeable personally.Is not the symbol of the great old,they without good nor evil just that?Must they teach man to abandon reason,Purpose or any other delusion that man may act freely?Would not a path for this example defy the purpose of the ideas within the mythos?
[glow=red,2,300](Ramble)[/glow] While I admit awakening may prove an invaluable tool,I take it as just that a tool.To make it an ends to itself is to becomed entangled in a loop where one simply remains stuck.Is not to awaken to do just this,to abandon the conscience and become free?Or is to transcend to something higher for ones whole life just because it is a higer calling or connection to the true self or some other self inflicted purpose?
I do indeed admire the work of Venger.You good sir have taught me much about the minds of men and without a doubt unlike many mages who live in reclusive squalor you have an empire ,accomplishments and riches to show for the fruits of your labor.
What I am getting at is simply this question.Do we choose a path to follow to the ends or do we choose a path to use to our own ends?Forgive my cynicism as I am of chaos magick stock.But it does not seem logical to adhere to a path of any type when one can mold anything they want for results.Just my take though.Forgive me if I lost touch with the topic in my rant.
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Post by Yevathik on Nov 18, 2006 3:32:34 GMT -6
If the end is awakening, then when one awakens, there is no longer an end.
The end justifies the means, but without the end, there is nothing to justify, there is only means. This is chaos. Means without an end. But remember there is a difference between chaos and freedom. To want something is to have an end. With freedom you do what you want, but with chaos your actions are entirely random.
I'm still trying to decide if this is a good thing or not, but I already know it is better than living in this place - where freedom is meaningless.
There is only one conclusion, we must have goals after awakening, there must always be an end.
Desire and freedom are both worthless without the other.
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Post by jameson on Nov 18, 2006 17:31:23 GMT -6
Excellent point,desire and freedom are worthless without one another indeed.There must indeed exist an end to sleeping in order for awakening to be witout end then.
If waht you say holds weight then when one awakens ,are there only means?
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Post by harlequinshaitan on Nov 18, 2006 17:56:08 GMT -6
Because not having a path, nor a purpose, leaves the Cultist nothing but floundering. What is a magician without goals?
Many believe that life has a purpose. If he finds himself without, then shouldn't the Cultist create his own purpose?
Choosing your own direction, path, or discipline is freedom enough. Freedom, to me, does not mean "anything goes". With freedom comes responsibility - just like power.
As do I.
The way I see it is this: I live about 20 to 30 minutes drive from work. So walking there is not an option. Awakening is like having a car. It is the means to get to where you want to go - the Real Work, if you will. At those times when you are Awake, everything changes slightly and for a few moments you have total control. What you do with that power is up to you.
I hope that I have explained things adequately.
Harlequin Shaitan Herald of the Old Gods
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Post by Yevathik on Nov 18, 2006 20:53:50 GMT -6
Excellent point,desire and freedom are worthless without one another indeed.There must indeed exist an end to sleeping in order for awakening to be witout end then. If waht you say holds weight then when one awakens ,are there only means? Well, yes, but only if one's ultimate goal is to awaken, and nothing more. It would be like wanting to have a million dollars just for the sake of having a million dollars. The question is what would you do with that money?
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Post by setnacht on Nov 19, 2006 9:00:00 GMT -6
Once awakened, what am i going to do?? Is that the question?
You have to decide yourself!! And what does it mean to be awakened?? (Nobody knows...those who seem to know can't tell you because words fail..... ;D) Awakening for the sake of being awakened is escapism, thats what a lot of mystics and buddhists do. The wheel of life and death, this world of 10.000 things is just pain and suffering....i have to be awakened to end this drama..... This is not a LHP point of view. I profited a lot from buddhism, taoism and several mystical writings. I think i can truly say that i know what it means to be awakened, but likewise i can't tell. Words really fail!!
Theres one point especially pertaining to the LHP that comes with the awakening. Its the deep knowledge that you are a god. Deification is one of the major goals of Satanism and the LHP. But to simply understand that doesn't make you a god. Once awakened, you know you are it!!! You know!!! Having reached this point, you can decide for yourself what you want to do. You are free. Be a creator, an originator, an author of new things, new worlds.
(By the way, a lot of people think that it is a hard getting awakened, that it takes a lot of time. No, not at all!! The paradox is, you are it already!! It is such a struggle for one reason only: you don't believe you are it hence you strive for it.)
Hail Satan!!
Setnacht
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 19, 2006 11:01:13 GMT -6
that's right, Awakening is 'outside the trapezoid' of the Left Hand Path... at least what most people consider the LHP. that's probably because most who walk the Left Hand Path seem to be modern Satanists. and most internet occultists have a tenuous grasp on the mystical, esoteric traditions which were put into motion aeons ago.
if a magician, Cultist, or 4th way practitioner has only one goal, then that is to free himself from the illusions of this world. this is the beginning, all else happens after this point. in this existence, a Cthulhu Cultist strives to become part of the divine, to be connected with the Old Ones, and to carry out the Great Work... altering all of reality! in this way, aeons from now our consciousness might become Godlike itself. achieving something that awe-inspiring takes decades of serious dedication once a Cultist is on the correct path for him. this is the only part of your post that i would disagree with, Setnacht. you probably have a different definition of Awakening than the Cult of Cthulhu. let me explain ours: for most people's lives, EVERYONE is asleep (yes, even myself). it is a struggle to Awaken because people believe they are already Awake. realizing that you are asleep right now is the first step. then, through self-observation we can put effort into being mindful - aware of the moment in itself and that we exist in that moment.
daily self-remembering is not an easy task, but is necessary. without it, we are asleep. "Metaphysics, philosophy, art, poetry, drama-these different inquiries into and expressions of the nature of man have one thing in common: they attempt to explain man's relationship to himself and to the world around him.
The Fourth Way, which is an ancient system of ideas that appeared throughout the ages under these different guises, not only describes man as he is, but more importantly, describes him as he may become.
Before we can hope to attain our full potential, however, we must first understand who we are. And here we come to a primary principle of the Fourth Way: we do not know ourselves. If we were able to see ourselves objectively, we would see that we are actually machines incapable of independent movement, living our lives in a trance-like waking state.
The Fourth Way begins with self-study. This study involves observing ourselves as a human machine. What we are, however, is more than a sleeping machine. Through specific efforts over a long time and with outside guidance, we can awaken..."www.gurdjieff-ouspensky-centers.org/english/index.shtmlVS
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Post by setnacht on Nov 19, 2006 15:56:52 GMT -6
What i wrote about awakening must have sounded presumptuous. VS, we agree in our definition of being awakened! Well, i want to put into perspective what i wrote about that subject. The awakening doesn't mean a change in our nature, it is rather a realisation, just what that word means: waking up to something! Thats what i meant when i wrote that we are it already. But we can't see it because we are asleep. To some, the process of waking up is a hard way, true. But there are others who experienced what buddhists call "sudden awakening". If that happens it hits you like a hammer on your head. If i could go back in time, i'd prefer the process and not the sudden thing. I could have been prepared then. Words, words, words......talking about that seems useless to me. How can i explain the feelings i had?? The shift in perception?? All i can say is, that it is worth it. I would go so far as to say that it is necessary for this still very young millenium, especially for us magicians. Machen, Blackwood, Lovecraft...all these writers intuitively knew about the existence of the elder gods, the great old ones out there. If we Cultists and Satanists want to work magic on that plane, we have to be awakened!! If we want to dive deep into the oceans of dreams, we have to be awake first, otherwise we'll still be dreaming. If we want to venture into the twilight, into the "between", not here or there but beyond....somewhere between....(I don't make sense, do i??), we have to be awake. Setnacht
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 19, 2006 18:04:22 GMT -6
yes, perfect sense, Setnacht. thanks for clearing that up.
indeed, it is both the easiest and the hardest thing to do. i recommend everyone who is unsure about Awakening and the Fourth Way to take a look at the link i included in my last post.
VS
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Post by Yevathik on Nov 19, 2006 22:25:52 GMT -6
At the end of all of this I wish for one of two outcomes; our complete emancipation or extinction. No further compromise will I accept.
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Post by jameson on Nov 20, 2006 16:31:33 GMT -6
At the end of all of this I wish for one of two outcomes; our complete emancipation or extinction. No further compromise will I accept. Agreed I prefer the genocide of humanity .end of story.Any other intelligence I want to experience being wiped ouut as well.Iwant to program my mind to enjoy thier hell. The reason why I stirred the water was to nonetheless play the adversary.There can be no king or kingdom unless he has conquered the adversary ...no??? It makes sense however that one can not awaken simplt by believing it.To better put it asking the consiousness if it is awake or aware will awaken it by forcing the self to actually awaken for even a slight moment in observation.If focused on one may feel this unexplainable quality.Questions like where am I,who am I etc... forces some type of search on asome level. But perhaps this is a technique that works for me.There are certain ways to trigger it nonetheless.I view awakening as a tool for a goal which I desire.This goal is to be able to exist simultaneously and flawlessly between two or three worlds or aspects of my choosing.The physical plane,mental plane and the other.
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