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Post by I AM the Way on Sept 22, 2006 13:02:18 GMT -6
"I looked at your site, and while I love H.P. Lovecraft and the Cthulhu Mythos, I believe it to be just that, a fictional Mythos. Lovecraft... I'm really into him, he's my favorite writer, but to join the Cthulhu Cult... I don't think it's for me. The imagery in Lovecraft's writing really speaks to me a way few other writers have, but I don't actually WORSHIP Cthulhu or any of the other Lovecraft gods per se... while I may use the Lovecraft Tarot deck, have Cthulhu statues in my home, and speak of the Elder Gods in my songs, for me they are more of a metaphor, in the way that ALL gods are metaphorical. In the same way that, for me, Satan is a metaphor for certain parts of the self. For me, gods are Archetypes... external representations that make it easier to focus on and elevate aspects of myself so that I may self-actualize. Thus, I utilize many gods from many different mythologies, the Lovecraftian among them. I think that Cthulhu and the Lovecraftian gods are a very good representation of those parts of the self that Satanism seeks to access, and without resorting to the Judeo-Xtian mythology at that, so more power to you. I know that Lovecraft himself was very anti-Xtian and so would probably approve. That said, if you still feel comfortable with me visiting your forums, I may do so, but I can't join an organized religion based around Cthulhu (or even Satan for that matter... as a matter of fact, I think organized religion is not for me). Case in point: on the dashboard of my car, I have statuettes of (left to right) Kwan Yin, Bastet, Cthulhu, and Shiva, AND I practice Santeria and Vodou. Regards, Asenaath"
yes, by all means visit the forum and post. one doesn't have to be a "believer" to discuss...
some Cultists do see the Mythos as archetypal forces that represent aspects of the self. and others see the Old Ones as actual beings.
personally, i believe that both and neither are true simultaneously. a sort of quantum physics/string theory paradigm. the Cthulhu Mythos, as all things on a molecular level, are in a superposition. this means that the Old Ones, and their servitors, are in a state of unlimited potentiality.
in Chaos Magic there is a fundamental law which must be understood: "belief structures reality." without acknowledging this, one easily confuses the map with the territory. our perspective and direct observation actually changes what we see, how we see it, and how the mind interprets the information.
i also agree that organized religion is usually a bad thing. however, in order to escape from the prison we find ourselves in, first we must receive help from someone who has escaped before and from others who also wish to escape with us. Awakening cannot be achieved all on one's own. this is why a group is helpful.
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
www.CultofCthulhu.net
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 20, 2006 15:06:42 GMT -6
here's another one...
I'm actually much more concerned with how exactly a group came to be formed around a totally fictional entity. Before The Call of Cthulhu, no such being has been described in either mythology, legend, or folklore. Cthulhu is a creative invention on the part of H.P. Lovecraft and nothing more. Thus, what you are doing would be similar to founding a Church of Gandalf or a Temple of Donald Duck. Both are fine characters, but creating a cult around them is asinine. No one with whom I'm familiar would take your group seriously, I'm afraid, let alone go so far as to join it. As an occultist, I myself certainly cannot do so, and as an occultist who has studied Satanism and demonolatry in various forms, I should wish to spare you the humiliation of telling friends and acquaintances about such a "Cult of Cthulhu", as doing so will invariably result in laughter and potential insults toward you (something I'd like to avoid).
Best wishes,
Shin
Shin, you're coming off as fairly pretentious. especially since your insecurity belies your ineptitude.
why should any particular entity need a suitably old human history to be "real" or powerful? ever heard of Chaos Magic? to the right individual, Donald Duck will work just as well.
i think i will use your email to make the Cthulhu Cultists laugh.
so... thanks for that.
Ia Ia,
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by iandiabhal on Oct 20, 2006 15:43:42 GMT -6
Shin> I'm actually much more concerned with how exactly a group came to be formed around a totally fictional entity. Before The Call of Cthulhu, no such being has been described in either mythology, legend, or folklore. Cthulhu is a creative invention on the part of H.P. Lovecraft and nothing more.
Ian> An assumption here. It could in a broader view be a person's (HPL's) synthesis of many varied myths and legends. Not much imagination Shin.
Shin>Thus, what you are doing would be similar to founding a Church of Gandalf or a Temple of Donald Duck. Both are fine characters, but creating a cult around them is asinine.
Ian> According to what "Rules"? "The World According to Shin?" The "Asinine" Rules? Its no more asinine than a lot of other religions and philosophies. It is an antithesis..opposition, revolution.
Shin>No one with whom I'm familiar would take your group seriously,
Ian> Ah. So you are in a fairly limited and unimaginative environment. Perhaps I wouldnt take any in your small group seriously. Who care what others think..fuck em.
Shin>Let alone go so far as to join it.
Ian> It doesnt "bite". What do you have to lose? Not much, unless you are a timid milksop. A mighty dogmatic and timid crowd you bop around there with Shin.
Shin>As an occultist, I myself certainly cannot do so, and as an occultist who has studied Satanism and demonolatry in various forms,
Ian> And now we are getting to the "meat" of the matter. Occultist? Are you a "professional" student? I am a practicing Satanist and have done considerably more than just "studied" it. So already you have a strike against you.
Shin>I should wish to spare you the humiliation of telling friends and acquaintances about such a "Cult of Cthulhu", as doing so will invariably result in laughter and potential insults toward you (something I'd like to avoid).
Ian> Fuck em..are you that concerned about what others "think" about you? Probably. A slave to trendiness and fashion? Well your certainly not a Satanist after making a "follow the herd" statement like that.
Not me. I am not going to set around wringing my poor little hands worrying about if others are laughing at me. I will roar back in laughter at em, flash them the il cornuto and a cheery Hail Satan! I follow my own lusts, desires and aesthetics be damned to what your walking in lockstep brainless herd of television brainwashed fashion zombies and automatons think. Raise your fist up in defiance Shin. Dare to think different. Its obvious you didnt glean much from your "study" of Satanism.
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 20, 2006 15:56:10 GMT -6
haha, i like that.
VS
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Post by iandiabhal on Oct 20, 2006 16:04:21 GMT -6
Now I am going to insult and laugh at you Shin..
Shin: Waa, waaa, snuffle snork, Im so worried and am crying because Im afraid to think anything outside the tedious norm of the cattle herd of the plebeian classes.. Oh dear, oh dear, golly willikers better get down to the mall to pick up the latest trendy gear, or "cool" phraseology, lest I be laughed at and humiliated...by my cultural "betters" and superiors. Oooh I might be made "fun" of..then what?
Ian> Spineless sheep and timid rabbits..
Silly rabbit! Cthulhu is for Cultists! Not Clowns.
Ha Ha!
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Post by iandiabhal on Oct 20, 2006 16:48:09 GMT -6
To all cultists, I know I was being flippant, but this illustrates a very good point. You will run into the skeptical and the perennial debunker. A natural armchair quarterback. Lots of advice and critique and very little to show in the way of measurable results or practical knowledge of matters. A natural non-achiever and couch potato who talks a lot of crap but cannot demonstrate much in the way of ability other than to be a kibbutzer..
One good tactic is to turn the tables..they say CoC is asinine. Wait up, then what do you believe in?
Most will pause here. The crafty ones will say they are 'agnostic' which means they are too undecided or permanently confused to say, or they will state their own beliefs. It is then rather easy to poke some holes in their beliefs. It is a matter of knowing the "achilles heel". All religions have their own particular Achilles Heel or philosophical weaknesses from a comparative view. All you have to tell the atheist is, its just a bit of fun. LOL!
This fellow although he claimed to be an occultist, as though he only believes there are "officially sanctioned" beliefs, seems to display an astounding lack or depth of knowledge. Sanctioned by whom? Bloody hell, if an alien landed at Disneyland he would think we do have an enormous worldwide "Cult" to a small rodent - Mickey Mouse..judging by the statuary and paraphenalia and signs of activity. In someways, some people damn near do treat the whole Disney thing like a cult when you get right down to it. It has it all..statuary, people dressed up in the skins of their god, rituals, songs, a "pantheon" of gods, its own creator mythos, and people even take "pilgrimages" to its cult centers in Florida and California.
As Darrick said, had he not studied or even been aquainted on the surface with Chaos Magick? There is a very strong Cthulhian current within Chaos magic. It is there for a reason. It appeals for a reason. It is outside of the norm. It is outside of Judeo/Christian mythos and culture. "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted." Most people dont truly understand or grasp the meaning of that.
Most of the stories of the new testament of the bible were written about a dead jew carpenter who may or may not have been some sorcerer, and whom none of the people who had written these books in the new testament had ever personally met. And they claimed he was the son of some desert god.. Thats pretty whack when you think about it. They say "hes coming back"..Yeah sure bud. Pardon me if I dont hold my breath after 2000 some odd years.
As far as any weight to the Cthulhu Mythos? One can find fragments of the Elder Gods, in many cultures. Tlaloc and the Chacmool from the Azteca religion and pantheon. Chimera, Typhon, Apophis, Hades, Tiamat...c'mon.
One could look at this as a 'Cthulhu mutual appreciation society' or could be as theistic as they wished or pleased. There is any number of currents one could follow.
That is up to the individual cultist to determine their own level of belief and/or aesthetic.
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Post by garyhill on Oct 25, 2006 22:42:54 GMT -6
Well, I've taken the first step here. Now, keep in mind, that I, like Shin, reject all religion - so when I don't take the worship of Cthulhu seriously understand that I also don't take the worship of Jesus or Allah or any other god seriously. I, like S. T. Joshi would consider myself an atheist most days. The days that I would reconsider that I'd have to consider myself to be of the cult of science - not to be confused with Scientology.
Anyway, don't take that as myself being disparaging or disrespectful - everyone has the right to their own beliefs - as long as they don't try to shove them down someone else's throat without an invitation.
Anyway, I'm tired, but Darrick has been on me to join this thing for a while and I finally had a few free moments.
More soon
Gary
Gary Hill Author of The Strange Sound of Cthulhu - Music Inspired by the Writings of H. P. Lovecraft
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Post by iandiabhal on Oct 25, 2006 23:32:38 GMT -6
Gary>>Well, I've taken the first step here. Now, keep in mind, that I, like Shin, reject all religion - so when I don't take the worship of Cthulhu seriously understand that I also don't take the worship of Jesus or Allah or any other god seriously.
Ian> Fair enough, although you are mistaken at least as far as I am concerned with "worship" of Cthulhu. I could refer you to quote in the Satanic Rituals by Dr. LaVey regarding the Mythos and the deities mentioned and the relationship being more akin to "teacher-student" than "deity-worshipper". "Cthulhism" doesnt correspond to other mainstream religions such as you mentioned. Could you view Cthulhu as an archetype or synthesis of many varied legends, myths etc?
Gary>> I, like S. T. Joshi would consider myself an atheist most days. The days that I would reconsider that I'd have to consider myself to be of the cult of science - not to be confused with Scientology.
Ian> I appreciate science. As a Satanist, my own belief is "test everything". That being said, science at least science as it exists, advanced though it is, does have limitiations and its own "walk in lockstep" dogmatism and dogmatic approach. Part of the problem I see is that much of it is driven to financial ends, keeping scientists locked in certain well established (and profitable) schools of thought. Making money is great, however it hasnt always proven to be the arena where the more profound and significant discoveries have been made. Here is a question for you - what causes a thought to begin? Why are some things remembered and others forgotten? What biological/chemical mechanism constitutes the "harddrive" sector of our memories? How are thoughts and memories "biologically" stored and categorized? Lets face it, science does not have even a fraction of the answers to the mysteries which comprise our universe, even the neural space between our ears or what cryptozoology exists in the great abyssal crushing depths of our own oceans. In my own opinion the truly great and inspired discoveries made, have been made by those rebels and heretics that dared to think outside the established/accepted and particular dogmatic system of the time and prevailing view. They bucked the system, and challenged the accepted dogmatic scientific view of their particular day and age and found novel and unique approaches and in doing so created "new sciences". Any thing or mechanism that can cause "thought outside of the box" is a good thing in my personal opinion. Others might not share that view and will fight tooth and nail if it is challenged, because they dont like to have their comfortable positions threatened. They dont want to be knocked off their box, or out of their ivory towers.
Gary>>Anyway, don't take that as myself being disparaging or disrespectful - everyone has the right to their own beliefs - as long as they don't try to shove them down someone else's throat without an invitation.
Ian> Well sir I think your comments were well reasoned and honest, and as such I have no objection to you having your own opinion, indeed that is your right and the free exercise of your will.
I would never shove any of my own beliefs down anyone's throat, mainly because I believe such prosthelyzing is largely ineffective except for those of weak mind and will. On a personal note, I am quite intrigued by your "The Strange Sound of Cthulhu". I would like to hear more on this and your thoughts on the topic. As an atheist what was your motivation for doing this, and where can one view, buy or listen to your writings or what ever comprises your work?
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 26, 2006 10:48:34 GMT -6
indeed. the Cult of Cthulhu is neither theistic nor atheistic... and yet it is also both of these at the same time.
this is no ordinary black magic lodge/philosophy/religion...
thanks for joining the forum, Gary
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priestwww.CultofCthulhu.net
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Post by garyhill on Oct 26, 2006 14:09:30 GMT -6
Thanks everyone for commenting and for welcoming me. I just mentioned to Darrick through myspace that I probably won't have a lot of time to be here - so don't interpret that as disinterest or anything like that. In fact, you are all welcome to email me directly at musicstreetjournal at musicstreetjournal.com and I'll be happy to correspond - particularly if I wind up seemingly painfully absent from here. I guess I should mention that I have also brought up with Darrick the idea of perhaps attending his next Cthulhu Convention in Madison. I only live an hour or so from there, so it wouldn't be that big of a haul. I had reservations about that, but seeing the welcome I've gotten here, those seem to be fading quickly. Without addressing any one thing too directly here, let me give youguys a bit more background into some of my own spiritual quests and where I come from in that respect. I have always been a seeker in terms of "religion" - I really hate that word. I started out raised in an evangelical christian household - and in fact as a child I knew the bible so well that the minister was convinced I would become a preacher. In any event, once I got to be in my teens I discovered a world of alternate concepts and embraced from time to time Hinduism, Eckankar and other practices. At this point I had a discussion with that same minister from my childhood. Well, from my point it was a discussion, from his it was preaching. It ended when I asked him, "let's say you are right and I'm wrong. When I get to heaven is God going to tell me 'you thought you were doing what I wanted, but you were mistaken, so you are not welcome here.'?" When his answer came back that "yes, that is what god would say." I told him that I would spit in that god's face. In any event, I later moved into Wicca and found some truths there. Or at least things I perceived at the time to be truths. The thing is, more recently I've read a lot of scientific studies that do indicate that spiritual sensations, even the quest for a higher entity and understanding are hard wired into our brain. They are an evolutionary creation to cause us to strive for more and allowed us to build the type of civilizations we have. I do know that they have found that they can trigger a false memory of an "alien abduction" by stimulating a certain section of the brain. Can religious experiences be all that different? While I'm not wholly convinced that's the basis for spiritual seeking and the like, I can say that the evidence is compelling to me. I should also mention that I used to know several people who said they were Satanists, and they were great people. Mind you, they did not believe (as I'm guessing is true of most "Satanists") in the horned guy from the bible. They explained it to me more in terms of "the worship of yourself." When I do tend more towards actual spiritual concepts those ideas for me manifest in something akin to a divine spark (call it a soul if you like) that exists within the human form and getting in touch with that is really the key to everything. I can tell you that that concept is really at the core of a lot of "religions." Certainly from my interpretation it's not far from what these people called "Satanism." Anyway, there's sort of a rundown on that - hope it cleared up some of what I was trying to express last night after way too many hours of being awake. As to the book. I was drawn to do it because Lovecraft (as a fiction writer) is my favorite author. Since I'm a music journalist and discovered a wealth of music out there based on Lovecraft's stuff, it seemed a "no brainer" to do this book. For more information, let me give you a few links here to check out. First, you can buy the book here www.lulu.com/strangesound. Here's the myspace set up for the book - www.myspace.com/strangesoundofcthulhu. Here's a link to the latest review of the book www.beetcafe.com/beetstewdisplay.cfm?id=1054. Here's an interview that I did recently www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/TheFeed/date/10262006/index.html#659166Well, that should be plenty to spark more discussion. Thanks again and talk soon Gary Gary Hill Author of the book The Strange Sound of Cthulhu - Music Inspired by the Writings of H. P. Lovecraft
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Post by thehereticsaint13 on Nov 12, 2006 14:45:27 GMT -6
"i also agree that organized religion is usually a bad thing. however, in order to escape from the prison we find ourselves in, first we must receive help from someone who has escaped before and from others who also wish to escape with us. Awakening cannot be achieved all on one's own. this is why a group is helpful. "
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
Well sir, I'm going to have to disagree. Awakening CAN be acheived all on one's own, if they know how to listen well to what goes around them in this "prison". A group is always helpful, but please do not say that you MUST depend on others to achieve awakening. Co-dependency always ends badly.
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 12, 2006 18:54:53 GMT -6
i see what you're saying, and you are right... after one has been taught the lore, has been shown what is necessary, and has been reminded of the struggle... an individual needs no one. in fact, he must do the real work himself, isolated from everything and everyone.
by himself, however, a man can do nothing at first. in the beginning he needs a guide and help from others. man does not Awaken on his own, he must be shown that there is such a thing and how to go about it. but after he has learned... taken those initial steps, a certain amount of independence is necessary.
VS
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Post by thehereticsaint13 on Nov 12, 2006 20:46:48 GMT -6
But what if someone taught themself? Surely THAT is not impossible, as you say, we ARE the masters of our own realities? Right? And yes, I understand, there is much to do to attain this "control", but what if someone had some...saaay...inherint abilities? Surely it's possible that someone could do it on their own? For it seems that the power comes at the price of complete isolation, wouldn't making one fight for the knowledge all the way, rather then have help and "guides", be better to prepare these individuals for the darkness? Wouldn't that be the "nature" of the darkness? Why the coddling in the beginning? Just kinda uncharacteristic of what I thought of Cthulu... I would expect him to be more unforgiving, more...Cold. Because the power seems to need quite a bit of strength to attain...I'd expect Cthulu to only want the worthy, no hapless dregs *L* But hey, that was just my view. If you think a man MUST have assistance, then why? Why is it impossible without assistance? Is the helplessness at the beggining the "nature" of the Cthulu that you see? Or is he the pure, true, cold, and ultimate evil that his awesomeness was supposed to be. His name rings like 10,000 years before Christ, sounding the horror and evil of his ways for thousands of leagues? *L* Is he getting lazy in his old age?
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 13, 2006 0:36:53 GMT -6
did you learn English all on your own? if there were no other humans, would you be able to feed yourself and survive (assuming of course that you weren't adopted by a generous pack of wolves)? did you learn mathematics, art, and philosophy all by yourself on some kind of island? have you never learned from the people around you, books, tv/movies, or school?
were you born cold? did you have these insights, which are similar to mine, as an embryo in your mother's womb? or might you have picked up an infinite amount of information in life and then privately constructed a "unique" paradigm based on what made sense... what came before?
VS
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Post by Yevathik on Nov 13, 2006 1:46:14 GMT -6
Possible? Yes. Probable? No.
It would be like throwing a 3-week-old child into a lake and expecting it to swim to shore. It might happen, but the odds are not good.
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 13, 2006 11:15:18 GMT -6
exactly. if we're taking bets, then i'd bet on that 3 week old child drowning rather than swimming to shore. does it suck? hell yes, but that's life.
if a man found himself in prison, then what are the chances that he could escape all by himself... especially if he didn't even know that he was incarcerated? Tim Robbins' character from Shawshank Redemption was exceptional. you could think of him as Awakened in a world that is asleep. yet even he needed the assistance of Morgan Freeman's character in order to get started.
with the help of this Cthulhu Cult, some of us can begin the Great Work!
Venger Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priestwww.CultofCthulhu.net
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Post by thehereticsaint13 on Nov 13, 2006 13:39:46 GMT -6
*LOL* That my friend, is just going back to the age old question of nature over nuture? Is it through the nuturing of those around that you become what you are, or was purely in your nature to become what you have become? Did not the first humans have to teach themselves language? From no understanding at all what language really was? Did not they have to teach themselves to hunt? To feed themselves? To create fire? From these primitives, did they not create art, mathematics, philosophy, the seeds of complex thoughts, all by themselves, on some sort of island? *LOL* From the primitives, there is our monster, and yet from that monster...somehow, miraculously...the concept of a man was born. And what we are today is that idea, the personification of it's action. What we are today sparked from the rancid minds of our viciously savage ancestors. So...nature vs. nuture...Out of nature, sprang what we are today. And yet we continue the tradition of what we are through nuture, for the most part. But there are people who ARE born with insight as an embryo, in the womb. It is rare, but much comes from that insight. So...it is possible that nature can spring forth intelligence, without the help of nuture. Some say probability is extremely nil, but, if you take the ENTIRE world (just our world mind you, this a rather large playground that we call existence), yeah, the probability number looks a little bit better on paper, looking at it on a global scale.
And again, back to Cthulhu...
Yeah, sure it'd be like tossing a 3 week year old babe into a lake and expecting it to swim back...
...but again, I thought that this WAS the nature of Cthulhu?
Is it not?
What is your vision of Cthulhu exactly?
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 13, 2006 15:07:41 GMT -6
well, language didn't spontaneously occur. meaning that it did not suddenly or accidentally appear out of a vacuum.
yes, nature is important. but someone with great inborn abilities still needs some assistance early on. a natural mathematical genius in caveman days could never come to his full potential. however, with the benefit of a good education (in modern times), that genetic math nerd could go quite far indeed.
VS
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Post by thehereticsaint13 on Nov 13, 2006 15:08:12 GMT -6
As to being born cold, my attitude and my abilities due to The Cold have always been there, though my understanding of what it is HAS been years in the making. But it was there long before I knew what it was. Could that not be said of other things also? I hope you don't think I'm attacking, it's just the views put forth here are still nothing of what I would think of the "nature" of Cthulhu...
...so far...he seems...rather disappointing...the way the nature is so far being described here...
...*LOL* I expected so much more from the Old One...
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Post by thehereticsaint13 on Nov 13, 2006 15:18:21 GMT -6
True, language didn't "spontaneously" occur, our brains weren't that advanced. And I do know and have met some interesting people that have taught themselves complex math (calculus and beyond) all on their own, the concept of mathematics did come to them from a vaccum, through their own reasoning, and have taught themselves this sciences with no outside help at all, sure, the language is different, but the concept and mechanics were all the same, all they did was simply translate their language, and then BOOM! You have this 12 year old leaving college professors behind in the dust in their own field.
As for the caveman days, through evolution we expanded our potential, but a genetic math nerd back then could EASILY gain his full potential back then because their brain had not been evolved like ours today. And genetic math nerds in this day and age CAN also reach full potential and beyond without outside help...
P.S. This is the most intellectual fun I've had in YEARS! You are well met, Sir Knight...*LOL*
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 14, 2006 12:22:31 GMT -6
as much fun as it has been, i believe we have now come to the Mexican standoff portion of our debate.
we just see things slightly differently... and that's ok.
VS
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Post by thehereticsaint13 on Nov 14, 2006 14:55:58 GMT -6
Definately...as I said before, well met Sir Knight...very well met... MUAH HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!! What's the next question? ;D
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Post by Captain Scumbone on Jan 7, 2007 16:46:51 GMT -6
To address the reservations of the Lovecraft fan....
May I point out that Thor is an ancient pagan God, worshiped fervently by millions. Humans and animals were sacrificed to him. Warriors prayed to him and carried charms of his hammer. The Holy Roman Church even created a hybrid Cross based on Mjolnir, Thor's hammer, in order to co-opt and infiltrate Norse pagans. The will of the world bowed to Thor, and to those who worshipped him. He is also a founding member of the Avengers in Marvel Comics.
While Cthulu might be the most modern interpretation that we commonly know of, there have been countless archaic deities matching the general description of Cthulu- being inhuman, formless or shapeshifting, dwelling in or beneath the seas. Typhon is a more modern Greek one,(and many of the Titans could easily be described as analogous to the Great Old Ones). Go further back, pre-greek, and the similarities become even more startling. Go back to before Sumeria's dominance, and the deities are rarely even remotely humanoid. Cthulhu has many names, and many faces, as do all deities. Gods sometimes seem to blur together ...that is, if you are deaf to their message.
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