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Post by wren on Oct 8, 2014 17:04:45 GMT -6
My current partner and I live together and are in a serious relationship. Our relationship isn't awful but it's been said to me by many that I can't do what it is I want to do if I'm with him. I support the both of us by myself financially and on a daily basis he doesn't do much. It's my first relationship and when I left my parents I went straight into it without any experience of living on my own.
My question is at what point in a relationship do you know it's time to leave? I've asked several people and they think I should but I wanted a...more enlightened opinion I suppose.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Oct 9, 2014 8:16:49 GMT -6
How do you feel leaving vs.staying? I mean, if you think of both at the same time, how do you feel?
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Post by wren on Oct 9, 2014 16:05:59 GMT -6
I feel that leaving is more important for my personal development and happiness. But I also feel like if I leave it will be difficult being on my own and I worry a bit about him because I don't believe he can take care of himself.
And on the staying side I feel frustrated and stuck with an emotionally unstable child who will never grow up or change for the better. I also feel guilty that I should stay because I love him (something else I'm unsure and confused about) and I feel that I could change him in some way.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Oct 9, 2014 17:13:09 GMT -6
You're already on your own.
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Post by wren on Oct 9, 2014 19:28:00 GMT -6
I suppose I am.
I think I mean more in the sense of having to find my own place and deal with the breaking up and moving out process.
I think the thing preventing me from leaving is the worrying if he will be able to support himself and also how much this is going to hurt him.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 6:21:10 GMT -6
I think the thing preventing me from leaving is the worrying if he will be able to support himself and also how much this is going to hurt him. ??
A man is supposed to support himself.
And pity is the most despicable feeling. Solidarity, generosity are good ; pity is not. Give to the ones worthy of it, do not waste your goodies to the unworthy, that's bad. No pity for the deficients.
An emotionally unstable child who frustrate you from the pleasure of a real man and damage your personal development and happiness? Do you want to waste years of your precious life for that kind of guy ? Sure ?
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Post by wren on Oct 10, 2014 16:10:13 GMT -6
I'm not sure I know what a "good man" is at this point. I never knew any from my childhood and I guess I've lost a bit of hope of ever finding one. Every person has their flaws. How can you go and find someone "better" when they're bound to have flaws, bad or worse, too? What's the point?
I really don't know what a good relationship is supposed to be. I've never seen one or been in one. I'm confused.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Oct 11, 2014 7:30:09 GMT -6
If you don't know,find out. But why is having a relationship so important right now?
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Post by wren on Oct 12, 2014 6:38:48 GMT -6
I suppose it's partially because of my Work on myself and also because there's a man I work with that I complain about my boyfriend to. My coworker loves to point out what a terrible person my boyfriend is and he has some points. I suppose him saying I should split with my boyfriend is starting to get to me. He says I deserve a better man but my coworker isn't too peachy himself.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Oct 15, 2014 2:30:20 GMT -6
I just had a breakup myself, I'll get back to this after I've had some sleep.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Oct 20, 2014 8:33:18 GMT -6
I suppose it's partially because of my Work on myself and also because there's a man I work with that I complain about my boyfriend to. My coworker loves to point out what a terrible person my boyfriend is and he has some points. I suppose him saying I should split with my boyfriend is starting to get to me. He says I deserve a better man but my coworker isn't too peachy himself. Internal considering?
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Post by wren on Oct 21, 2014 7:25:12 GMT -6
I am pretty sure internal considering is my chief feature. And I am conflicted because I am unsure at what point leaving my relationship is a matter of my real self or my false personality.
Everyone I've talked to says I deserve better but isn't that a form of internal considering? And if I do stay how do I balance living with his flaws and my Work on myself? How do you live with a person who is a machine and will never change?
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Post by shawnhartnell on Oct 21, 2014 10:09:30 GMT -6
Blah blah blah, what's your aim?
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Post by wren on Oct 22, 2014 6:55:17 GMT -6
To stop internal considering in myself.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Oct 23, 2014 18:24:12 GMT -6
So what ya gonna do about it?
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Post by wren on Oct 24, 2014 7:19:13 GMT -6
In regards to my relationship...
Try to observe when my doubts are really just me internally considering myself.
Try to externally consider my partner and accept that he is unconscious, just as I am.
Reevaluate my relationship as consciously as I can and decide if staying is worth the effort.
I have already tried these and will keep trying. I think that my desires for him to be different will most likely not happen even though my false personality wants to help him change. I think that me staying or leaving is a choice between accepting him as he is and trying-perhaps unsuccessfully-to change him or living my own life and achieving my goals without hinderance from my partner.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Oct 24, 2014 14:31:29 GMT -6
You think your desire for him is different. What do you mean by that?
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Post by wren on Oct 25, 2014 16:41:16 GMT -6
To clarify, I meant that I desire him to be different from what he is. And I know that is most likely impossible. He's told me that he really wants to change, wants to be different and better, but he doesn't know how.
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Post by shawnhartnell on Nov 1, 2014 10:32:50 GMT -6
What I'm about to say is going to sound clichè -- he'll only change if he wants to change himself. But, change into what? 'Better' is kind of vague, even so, who's standard is being used? To what purpose?
I recently ended it with my girlfriend of six years. We're friend's now, but I can say in my case that it's better to be alone than in a relationship where the people are not suites well to each other.
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Post by wren on Nov 1, 2014 23:04:45 GMT -6
I agree. I've told him that he has to want to change himself and has to do it himself. He says he needs my help. I am not entirely sure what his idea of 'better' is. He says he wants to be more mature and responsible. He wants to get a better job, school, etc.
It seems that his desire to be better is simply a reflection of what I want but I may be wrong. Since our last serious conversation about my desire to leave, he has made efforts. Enough that it may be worth staying but I'm keeping my eyes open.
I'm sorry to hear that but you're right. What do you think makes two people well suited for eachother?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2014 13:52:04 GMT -6
What do you think makes two people well suited for eachother?
What an interesting question ! Let us consider it keeping in mind our knowledge of the 4th way, please.
You already know that there is not a single "I" in ordinary man. you know, too, that these "I"s are constantly changing, and evolving through life.
In these conditions, it's pretty hard to imagine an harmonious relationship which will stay the same through the years...
I'm letting you writing your thoughts and we will try to give an answer.
NOW is the moment of Awakening !
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Post by wren on Nov 7, 2014 20:43:25 GMT -6
I've been thinking about my answer and I'm still unsure. It's a much more difficult question to answer than I thought...
I thought at the beginning of relationships based on wether the individuals were in the Work or not but I stopped when I realized it had more to do with the individual's level of being.
Our being attracts our life and, I assume from experience, the people in it. A well suited partner might mean not what we want in the other person but what we need for our individual growth. But because of the mechanicalness of man, too many things prevent them from seeing themselves and their partners as what they are.
I'm still thinking about this though.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 16:00:06 GMT -6
I'm just writing a few thoughts :
The same goal(s) is excellent to keep a couple united. Provided the partners are mature enough to have goals and to pursue them.
A famous Greek philosopher (I don't remember who exactly) stated that anyway it is a good thing to be married : If it makes you happy that's great and if not then that make you a philosopher which is excellent for your soul. It's possible to conclude that, except some extreme situation, the good will of just one is enough to make a durable relationship.
Last but not least, remember that just by being, consciously, is affecting your surrounding, including peoples and your partner first, I do mean people's mind.
Remember yourself !
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Post by wren on Nov 16, 2014 19:32:41 GMT -6
Those are very interesting thoughts. I personally don't see the point in marriage and would happily go without.
I've noticed that the times I am more conscious those around me become more insightful to themselves and their flaws. But not always. Consciousness is extremely powerful.
I've been pulling my identification with my partner and others apart and looking at things more clearly. When I Am, I can see that my relationship isn't useful to me or my goals. It is creating more difficulties than it is solving them. And yet my machine wants me to stay...
Awake!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 7:12:50 GMT -6
I'm afraid we cannot tell you more. Now read again the posts of this thread, be as conscious as possible, an decide...
In a word : YOYO ! (You're On Your Own).
Awake...
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Post by wren on Nov 17, 2014 20:24:44 GMT -6
Thank you both so much for your insight. It's helped me a lot. I'm glad now that I haven't left the Cult.
Awake!
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Post by shawnhartnell on Nov 24, 2014 9:27:33 GMT -6
I've noticed that the times I am more conscious those around me become more insightful to themselves and their flaws. But not always. Consciousness is extremely powerful. Yeah, it's an odd thing that consciousness is catchy, and it's rarely discussed. The only other place I know is Hubbard, who pointed out that whenever someone was relatively mechanical, they tended to become less mechanical by being around more conscious people. Update on my personal drama. Me and the SO are more or less together again and things are getting better. Mainly because I accept she's going to be mechanical and I don't try to talk sense to her when she'a like that. Now I go do something else and wait to talk to her when she's regained her senses. With just this change, our relationship and her own consciousness has improved dramatically. Before that, I allowed her to drag me down with her... So, how do you know your 'machine' wants you to stay? Is emotion mechanical?
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Post by shawnhartnell on Nov 24, 2014 9:27:59 GMT -6
Thank you both so much for your insight. It's helped me a lot. I'm glad now that I haven't left the Cult. Awake! I like having you around. Often you remind me of why the Cult is here.
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Post by Padowan on Mar 17, 2015 7:18:04 GMT -6
Hello Wren. I'm very interested in what decision you made and how things turned out.
Let me say the men on this thread gave you very good advice and feedback. Consider their words carefully.
So how do you know when to leave?
Maybe you should begin with how do you know when to start. What makes a good relationship?
- Certainly conscious living would be high on the priority list; why commit to someone who can't envision the same path?
- Mutual aspirations. If he's not working, not seeking self improvement, what is he doing?
- Reciprocity. How many times has he considered the dynamics of your relationship as you are? Is he putting in the same effort?
The very fact that you are questioning your relationship is the first indication a change is imminent.
I see a poor future for you based on your description. He is acting as a parasite. Not only is he feeding on your income but he will slowly drain you emotionally. I know, I spent 21 years with a man that 'needed' me. "I don't know how' is man's best excuse for inaction. It either excuses him because of ignorance or puts the burden on you to teach and help him, or keep doing it yourself. None of those are acceptable. As Yrreiht put it:
I think the thing preventing me from leaving is the worrying if he will be able to support himself and also how much this is going to hurt him. ??
A man is supposed to support himself.
And pity is the most despicable feeling. Solidarity, generosity are good ; pity is not. Give to the ones worthy of it, do not waste your goodies to the unworthy, that's bad. No pity for the deficients.
An emotionally unstable child who frustrate you from the pleasure of a real man and damage your personal development and happiness? Do you want to waste years of your precious life for that kind of guy ? Sure ?
Imagine yourself in 10-20 years down the road. Still working and now maybe with children. If things stay as they are now resentment will build. A bitter relationship turns sour.
At least you can leave. You are financially independent. His financial situation is his responsibility.
And a relationship will never complete you. From the time we are little girls it is drilled into our head to marry and have children. I tried to resist, even at nine I knew I wanted to be independent. Never wanted a wedding. You have time to discover what a good man is, but not while you are still taking care of one.
A good man, in my experience: - Independent thinker
- Self-sufficient or self supportive at the very least
- Not needy - financially or emotionally
- Disciplined - physically, intellectually, spiritually
- Caring and lighthearted
- Fun
Think of a good man like your best friend. You're mutually compatible, enjoy each other's company, improve each other's lives but are perfectly independent of each other. Once 'need' comes into the relationship equation the environment becomes burdensome. A person that loves and cares for you does not want to weigh you down. They want to lift you up.
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Post by wren on Mar 18, 2015 16:22:36 GMT -6
Thanks for your reply kimberly, a lot has changed since my last post. We are still together. A lot of people (my "friends" in particular) wouldn't be happy with me saying that. I had to take a good look at my motivations and I saw that a lot of it was my fault. One of the men advising me about what to do I started developing feelings for. Nothing serious really just me deluding myself. But because of him and my other friends I was very close to leaving unless things changed. So I pulled away from everyone for a bit and decided what I wanted for myself. I gave my boyfriend his ultimatum and we talked things through. He did change. Of course it's not perfect and we still have arguments but now we have a more solid relationship to lean on. It also doesn't hurt that now he has a full time job and a raise.
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