Objective Existence vs Subjective Existence

[fnordie]

Do spirits, gods, demons, and all other manners of otherworldly beings exist objectively, or are they subjective creations of your conciousness? I don't necessarily mean hallucinations--I believe that belief itself can physically impact the material world. I'd like to hear what y'all think.

Personally, I tend to side with Robert Anton Wilson on this one (in case you coouldn't guess from my name.) I think that if there is such thing as objective reality, none of us can ever experience it. Everything we perceive is part of our own individual reality tunnels.

[fnordie]

Woops. This should've gone in either the "Reality" or the "Quantum Everything" category. Somebody move it.

[I AM the Way]

actually, i think this topic is in the right place. yes, it deals with reality, but you are interested in one's belief/consciousness affecting reality...

and yes, i think individual reality tunnels can create all manner of wonderous and hideous things.


Venger Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest


www.CultofCthulhu.net

[fnordie]

admin said:

and yes, i think individual reality tunnels can create all manner of wonderous and hideous things.

Agreed. But do you also believe in an objective reality? I thought my point that there isn't one was going to provoke the most debate.

[I AM the Way]

that's a tough one. i can see it from multiple angles...

is there an objective reality? i assume there is and that most human beings can never truly experience it. but when you consider multiple dimensions, subjective realities, and ineffable Devil-Gods... who the Hell knows?!?


standing at the Outer Gate,

VS

[ibiss]

I can not seperate from subjective and objective reality.I can not find a boundary.Am I subjectively experiencing the objective reality.Does that not than mark objective as subjective entirely.One as a legion of many?

Or are we objectively squeezed behind 1 subjective reality which is "I"?As such subjective is objective of a legion as one?

I can not know.So I make them one.A trinity of sorts.When its useful gods are internal and when useful external.Depends on my desire

[fnordie]

ibiss said:

Or are we objectively squeezed behind 1 subjective reality which is "I"?As such subjective is objective of a legion as one?

That's exactly what I was getting at. Since everyone can only perceive for themselves, everything we ever experience is subjective.

If you look at it from this point of view, all belief systems become equally true, and all forms of magick and occultism become equally valid--and what's more, equally effective.

[darkstar]

Objetive "reality" is nonsense. All "reality" is a perception by someone, in this case human beings. What we could talk about is about shared realities or something like that. There could be lots of overlapping between similar people, but there will always be differences.

[ibiss]

Can there be a shared reality?Everyone you will speak to will speak what you percieve them saying.As such can there be one reality and can everyone else be some grand illusion fabricated by the mind?As such would an arguement about the brain simply be a self perceived illusion as everything else.Then again if the legion of the many are in this one than the many are within and maybe the ppl around us simply reflect thier thoughts.Those hidden ones' ideas made manifest.And if these hidden ones are but an illusion of something deeper.Damn I just love these trance inducing rabbit holes ,theres no end to the depth.This is the existance I struggle to recognize.If I then recognize it then would that make me aware?

[fnordie]

You sound like me stoned.

[devoutbeliever666]

I think everything is subjective, but if there is a real Reality, can it be found? I doubt it.

[stretloth]

Reality for me comes and goes...Its like just when something seems real enough for me to believe in it it revaels its self as a product of my over-activeimagination and powerful ego.
If there really is an objective existance then I beleive that it is malleable enough to be changed by even the most subtle reactions of the sorcerer.
But hey, Im just a fool who tricks himself into thinking 'everything is ok'...

[stretloth]

Oh i got off track there......Yes I do beleive that daemons, gods and spirits can effect the world in which we live

[sin]

Is reality, really....real?

If a person has 'faith' in the belief of 'spirits, demons, and gods' - how does that person objectify their reality? If these manifestations are just products of the mind; aren't they real in the sense that they are tangible ideas?

Subjective reality, is the mind- yes?

[Madguten]

Is reality, really....real?

If a person has 'faith' in the belief of 'spirits, demons, and gods' - how does that person objectify their reality? If these manifestations are just products of the mind; aren't they real in the sense that they are tangible ideas?

Subjective reality, is the mind- yes?

People often talk about objectivity, but i am not even sure that true objectivity is possible. We are mammals. We live under the rules of what we can sense. Our senses are limited. Living IS reacting. And so i dont believe that any thought can ever be truly objective.

What is real? If you ask me.
Only that which you experience and your reaction to it.

Regarding demons
Some people REALLY experience things that fit the bill.
Internal or external of source, who knows? Could easily come from within the brain itself. The human brain is an amazing control center for a mass illusion if you ask me. I will tell you but you probably already know, The mind is a terrible thing to taste, anyone with a more or less steady mind should really be infinitely thankful (even myself), because really, REALLY. Some people live in Hell because of their mind. Really hell. Even worse than hell actually. I would rather be killed a thousand times and starve to death a million times than experience the worse of what the human brain can offer.

(oh damn i wanted this to be a quick response)

But in our normal use of the word we dont need to go that deep.

The way we (people) normally use the word (objectivity) is just a way of determine or identifying the level of personal opinion has been put into a product. In this sense objectivity is certainly possible. If we stay to what we know for fact is a truth.

Like if we write.

Lovecraft is known for writing horror stories, then we are fairly objective. But if we write; Lovecraft is the godfather of horror, then we are certainly shining our own feelings about Lovecraft into the information we are trying to express. So dont get me wrong, i do believe in "objective journalism". I am just analyzing the "root-meaning" of the word. I just had to explain that fact now that i had taken a swing at reality and objectivity.

So.

In the real root of the meaning of the word then no.

Reality is NOT real, it is OUR OWN subjective analyze of what we experience.

But in the normal use of the word then yes.
Reality is solid, and can be known. If we pick up a rock and throw it, then that same rock WILL end up wherever it lands. A tree DOES make a sound if it falls while no one is around to hear it (how do i know, the universe whispered it to me in my dreams ;D).

[baphomet]

I don't see much point in trying to determine objective vs. subjective since we can never really know... besides, is there really much of a seperation? If there is an objective reality, wouldn't that include all of the subjective ones that flow out of it?

Either way I think the real issue that REALLY needs to be addressed is the whole "are spirits part of my unconscious mind?" question.

First of all... everything you see and experience is an interpretation and representation of what your brain feeds you. For this reason ALL of reality is symbolic. That's not actually a keyboard you're typing on, it's a collection of atomic and cosmic forces and energies our primate minds could never hope to comprehend - luckily we can still interact with it because our minds interpret as an object that our culture has convienently attatched a value to ("keyboard") so that we can talk about, and thus manipulate it, easier...

So what does this means when it comes to spirits?

Treat them objectively.

Seriously, if you want to say "they're just parts of my mind" that's a good way to kill power... it's almost the same as saying "oh that hundred dollar bill over there is just a symbol in my mind, and ALL value to it is completely in my head, with no real value (power) of it's own."

And even if spirits are "facets of the unconscious mind"... isn't it good to remember the power of the unconscious mind? Seriously, the unconscious is almost one of the things nearly all occultists can agree on. Do you want to devalue your own great unconscious and dissapate it's power by neglecting it's value?

So spirits may be symbols. But so is money. So are coorporations, and ideals like "democracy". So is your chair. Your signifigant other is a symbol in your mind as well (try treating them like "just a symbol of my mind" and see how well that works)...

Saying something is "just a symbol" is to forget that we live in a symbolic reality.

[Madguten]

I don't see much point in trying to determine objective vs. subjective since we can never really know... besides, is there really much of a seperation? If there is an objective reality, wouldn't that include all of the subjective ones that flow out of it?

I agree. Also, all is relative to us, it all depends on how we view it.

Seriously, if you want to say "they're just parts of my mind" that's a good way to kill power... it's almost the same as saying "oh that hundred dollar bill over there is just a symbol in my mind, and ALL value to it is completely in my head, with no real value (power) of it's own."

But is that not the EXACT situation of money. Do they not only work because we are all so horribly deluded. And will this not surely be the downfall of our race? I think; yes. This illusion is just so powerful that the we will not realize it until it becomes necessary for survival (i think).

And even if spirits are "facets of the unconscious mind"... isn't it good to remember the power of the unconscious mind?

Power is for the weak, the strong shall overcome. (wtf does that mean? ;D) It means that i think that power of the mind is best gained by focusing on ones mental weaknesses and overcoming them. The mere idea that one has power is a weakness in itself, because power is an illusion. Like evil or love. Strength is real, power is not.

Dont get me wrong.
I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying, but i have to say this because what i usually experience when people in general talk about their "relationships" to demons and angels, they are often just describing a schizophrenic spiral of self delusion. Like the alien/ufo people who are scared to even lift their eyes from the ground when they walk outside because they KNOW that a ufo is following them. Or the people who suffer from sleep-paralyzes who think that it is demons or aliens who are visiting them. These people live in very strict mental shackles. We all do, of course. But for these folks the shackles are so heavy that they cant even stand, they are buried in shackles. THESE people would surely GAIN power if they could just realize that their brain was fucking with them. They could be empowered by realizing that they are weak. The spiral can be countered from within and they can grow as creatures. I call it a spiral because i feel that it really is. And it can go down fast.

But as i said, all is relative. Words are not things. We see what we see and that is that. Who am i to say that demonic forces dont exist outside the mind of creatures. I know nothing, to the fullest sense.

Seriously, the unconscious is almost one of the things nearly all occultists can agree on. Do you want to devalue your own great unconscious and dissapate it's power by neglecting it's value?

The truly unconscious is the stuff of dreams.

Saying something is "just a symbol" is to forget that we live in a symbolic reality.

But saying that we live only in a symbolic reality is forgetting that this reality, this world, would be here even if we were not. We have not created it with our mind. The way we SEE it is created in our mind, but the universe is real. We have just been put here and now we must play the game. Symbolic reality IS real, but it is only our own reflection of our surroundings. That is why some religious symbolism is pure genius and other is pure folly (if you ask me). Religious symbolism is often our way of using intuition to understand and describe that which is out of our mental and physical reach. Or thats my take on it anyway.

I think it is important to say that this is just MY take on it. I know nothing. I am very much subjective in my views. And i often find myself learning new things. I hope i dont come off like a "listen to me" fascist. ;D If i do, it is because of a language barrier. ;D

One thing is for sure, the unconscious IS a wonderful place.

Wonderful, in the root-meaning of the word.

It is full of wonder.

IA! IA!

[sin]

If we consider the root word 'objectivity' and its text-book definition:

"judgment based on observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices. External reality. Intentness on objects external to the mind."
-Webster's Dictionary.

Again I ask, how does one objectify their reality.

If 'reality' is what the mind perceives, the universe would then exist in the mind; internal reality. In order to externalize it, and make it 'real'; you need tangible evidence to support it.

Ok, so a tree falls - no one is around to witness it, or hear it but discovers the fallen tree years later.


It exists. The tree was once erect, but it had fallen. The tangible evidence is the fallen tree. No one saw it, no one heard it - but it did in fact fall.

The internal reality is visualizing the tree falling, hearing it in the mind. Then looking upon the fallen tree.

If a person had never seen a tree fall, or heard one fall; the mind has no point of reference therefore these concepts do not exist in the internal reality.

The objective external reality, is the fallen tree in your presence. How can you validate that the tree did in fact fall, and was not placed there by any other method? How can you objectify the reality of the fallen tree?

[I AM the Way]

lots of good posts in this thread.

i think Madguten makes a few really wonder-ful points. there's a difference between communing with dark forces (the unknown itself) and a "schizophrenic spiral of self delusion". sometimes that difference is minimal and other times it is glaringly vast.

The objective external reality, is the fallen tree in your presence. How can you validate that the tree did in fact fall, and was not placed there by any other method? How can you objectify the reality of the fallen tree?

Sin

objective reality cannot be validated. therefore it cannot truly exist. only multiple dimensions of subjective reality are possible.


Venger As'Nas Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest

[baphomet]

"A lone person on an island can not have a mental disorder - it takes two people"

Why? Because a "mental disorder" is a term used to describe a mental condition someone has that deviates from what is considered normal.

A shaman who fasts, meditates, and gives offerings to the spirits would be considered "scitzophenic" in our society, but holy in another...

But then again, take a scientist from our society, plop him in the middle of the deepest Indonesian jungles, and his talk of "germs and viruses" would be seen as absurd if not mad- espeacially with no microsope to back his theory. But then suppose the same Shaman can use a tool other than a microscope (a hallucinogen) to show his version of reality- one of spirits and subtle eneries, and then you have the roles completely reversed: the scientist becomes a raving lunatic who keeps insisting that the shamanic societies tools "aren't valid" or something, but with no way to back his own, even when the shaman has his own "proof"...

By the way, for all of you who would insist that the shaman's tools are just "messing with his mind" consider this: a study was done once where subjects were given hallucinogens and asked to determine whether or not they could detect the curviture of certain lines. It turned out that the ones "Under the influence" could do so better than those who were not- a case of drugs actually giving a "truer" (according to science) version of reality than could normally be detected.
NOTE: I AM NOT ENDORSING ILLEGAL DRUGS, remember it is a cultural thing. Most of the western world has completely demonized something that was once common practice and still is among some indigenous peoples today, under the claim that drugs are bad because "they alter your mind" while forgetting at the same time that daydreaming, sex, intense emotion, even chocolate all produce noticable and scientifically traceable "altered states" in the brain.

...To the UFO example, about the alleged "scitzos" who are paranoid about UFOs coming to get them... suppose, just for the sake of example that this paranoia allowed them to survive better than others - so who has the mental disorder now?

Many physical anthropologists who study evolution believe that our developing color-vision was litterally a brain mutation that allowed our early primate ancestors to survive better... Suppose for example, early primates could talk like we do - an individual developing such a sense would be seen as mad - claiming certain rocks look different than others because of something he cannot describe - the problem is no one else can see reality his way, so because his thinking is not in line with the majority, he would be labeled "mentally ill" - despite the fact his reality has some validity.

[Madguten]

EDIT:
I have just looked at what i wrote here, and i will have to warn. Its some dumb shit, i get into flies and cats and stuff. Be warned. I deem this post of mine somewhat overlengthed and dull, lol ;D

If a person had never seen a tree fall, or heard one fall; the mind has no point of reference therefore these concepts do not exist in the internal reality.

perhaps, it certainly looks that way at first glance.

But are we then not overlooking the overwhelming and forgotten force in ourself from our distant past, a thing called instinct. Does the cat only know how to hunt, because of its playful training as a kitten, or is some kind of instinctual root inside it playing in? I think it is, i think an untampered cat will always know how to hunt from within itself. Instinct is what assures me the rules of physics of a falling tree, not what i have learned. Instinct is overlooked by the modern world.

I had dreams of sex, flying/falling, fighting, and dying in endless ways, long before i knew anything about what it was or meant. I remember it well because i use to tell everybody about it. Much, if not all, of what i know comes from my dreams, in a sense. It is in the dreams that much data is processed. I think it might be thus with everybody, i just think that it is so subconscious that people dont realize it, and they dont have to.

this is getting off track but stay with me for a second here.
I think that our dreams are like a BIG data processor that (how often and at what amount i have no idea) processes our experiences while we are asleep. And...At an unknown amount, mostly when we are small children i believe that the brain even feeds us information that one would thing SHOULD be learned through experience or other external information sources. I suspect that the knowledge is simply resting in our very genes or DNA. The same way a newborn cattle knows how to stick to its mother. Or how the bees know how to collect honey.

It is instincts.

I saw a video not long ago of flies being "born" from their cocoons. What i noticed what the fact the the fly was a fully operational fly the very second it broke through the cocoon. As soon as the fly was out of its cocoon it laid on its back holding the cocoon in its arm. It then within seconds began moving the cocoon around in its arms, feeling it and turning it around. And it dawned on me. That cocoon was the first thing that fly had ever felt in its arms. It handled the cocoon for a few seconds, then it stood up and took off and BANG, a fly had been born, ready to rule ;D

It made me realize that being born or starting life outside of ones organic hatching-grounds is exactly like waking up from a dream.

The feeling is the exact same. We dont experience it (or remember anyway) because we are mammals. Much of our evolving will happen AFTER our birth. Humans take forever to form, compared to most other creatures, even amongst mammals. And so the experience of our birth is lost, or never experienced.

The fly experienced its own awakening into this world in the same way as we would experience waking up in the morning.


Anyway...
It just opened its eyes and BANG, it knows the deal about its place in the universe.

When they die in the window shelve its not because they are semi-functional vermin. Those deaths are on the account of human folly or genius (take a pick). Glass is a new factor, evolution has a way of taking forever to adapt. I guess it is natures way of not jumping on just ANY trend. If glass windows are still here in a billion years, flies might have adapted to them.

I guess it is really us who will have to see if we can still hang in a billion years.

I have no doubt that the flies will overcome in any case ;D



Holy crap this is off topic. I am so sorry

i think Madguten makes a few really wonder-ful points

Thanks, if i did then surely i owe it all to the tongue of the actual Madguten from my childhood dreams. He symbolizes wisdom to me in a very real way.

[Madguten]

To baphomet:

I took so long editing and writing my previous post that i didnt see your latest post until after i had posted. I wanted to touch on it last night but i was simply too exhausted. You bring up some good points that i often try to bring across myself.

Like the fact that many of those who are called insane are simply different. And the fact that at other places in time, other things were considered insane. Like, once you were considered insane and profane if you so much as hinted the possibility that the earth might be revolving around the sun.

But.........

I do not think it is always that simple.

Real disfunctionality DOES exist. Some people really ARE disfunctional. Like a broken VCR that keeps eating the tape. I think it is because we, as creatures, function more or less mechanically. The mechanics CAN mess up, some can be fixed, some can not.

But having said that i will have to say this.

If we, as a species, ever truly conform or agree on one single way of living then we will be throwing out a lot of things. It would suck so much. It would be like removing all the different toppings from all of the worlds pizzas just because not everyone likes it. Not allowing people to be different and insane would be killing off a great deal of what humanity is. We must never become one as a species. Unless it happens from within in the wake of the Dream One. We must nurture our diversity like we do a plant. Until he wakes.

To become one as a species, is too loose all the rest.

It is boring.

So i actually agree with everything you said in your last post.
Except i believe that a real scientist who knew what he was doing, WOULD actually be able to show results in ANY time. He could cut an apple and show them how the bacterias start to eat away at the cut. They would recognize it from their own infected wounds. It they didnt believe in microscopic existence then he could cut open a fresh corpse and let them watch as the maggots go from "too small to see" to "too big to miss" in a few days. But i get your point, and for most scientists today, i think the experience would be very much like you described. They would be chased into mountains or sacrificed to the old ones faster than one can say; ARE YOU NUTS!? ;D ;D ;D

This thread has really become enjoyable. ALL of the posts people make here are great. Between the lot of us, we have pretty much covered all that is known to man and maybe even more. ;D

[sin]

Mar 4, 2008 11:37:53 GMT -6 I AM the Way said:

lots of good posts in this thread.

i think Madguten makes a few really wonder-ful points. there's a difference between communing with dark forces (the unknown itself) and a "schizophrenic spiral of self delusion". sometimes that difference is minimal and other times it is glaringly vast.

The objective external reality, is the fallen tree in your presence. How can you validate that the tree did in fact fall, and was not placed there by any other method? How can you objectify the reality of the fallen tree?

Sin

objective reality cannot be validated. therefore it cannot truly exist. only multiple dimensions of subjective reality are possible.


Venger As'Nas Satanis
Cult of Cthulhu High Priest

Right, so that's why I ask - is reality, really, real?

[I AM the Way]

Right, so that's why I ask - is reality, really, real?

i say no. reality does not exist.


VS

[dzepxich]

The past is not real; the future is not real. The only "real" reality is the "now". The moment by moment interaction between your "consciousness" and your "environment".

[luxcthonis]

I won't even begin to scratch the surface of this debate; personally I think this sort of question is one of those esoteric trapdoors (in which case, perhaps I shouldn't say anything ) oh well..
If humans didn't exist, would the earth still exist? The Sun? The Solar System? Would all of this suddenly stop if humans were taken out of the equation? I doubt it.
Boom! Objective reality.
I've heard a lot about this "belief creates reality" stuff, and it may be true or it may be nonsense (such it is with all esoteric trapdoors). But there are certain facts about the nature of the universe which pretentious humans like to overlook (because it comes as a threat to one's comfortability): that there are advanced, conscious, highly powerful intelligences which exist OUTSIDE of the reality of anything "human." Furthermore, these intelligences are VERY interested in humanity in a personal way (which many LHP'ers love to try to forget, or work around).
The "beings," "Entities," or what have you, while knowing that the human race is of no significance in a universal sense, are interested in humans because of the potential benefit we can be to them! This isn't a bad thing at all if you are aligned with either of these factions of intelligences (Ancient or Elder), and are seeking to perpetuate the agendas of either group. However, if you are a normal, average person, just the information in this post could make you fearful (or at least make you think that I am insane, haha).
My belief that the A:O are R-E-A-L absolutely reinforces the reality of objective existence. I do not believe in spirit-gods fashioned of human intellect, but rather in tangible races beyond the stars whose constitution transcends both the physical and the spiritual. You can touch them, see them, experience them, and most importantly: you can know that they originate from a source outside of yourself. You are in them, they are not in you. Not yet.

My conclusion: Objective reality exists; the place of humanity is irrelevant in relation to Infinity, except as a benefit to outside intelligences; subjective reality exists only to reinforce objective reality.

The Subjective is the Gatekeeper to the Objective.

Excuse the rant.

Good post.

[JJ Burke]

gödel's incompleteness theorem illustrates the impossibility of objective truth. this is a concept we're already familiar with, but i hadn't seen it explained this way before.

[luxcthonis]

Aug 14, 2008 15:40:54 GMT -6 JJ Burke said:

gödel's incompleteness theorem illustrates the impossibility of objective truth. this is a concept we're already familiar with, but i hadn't seen it explained this way before.

Meh... the fact that it was devised by a human mind sort of nullifies any relevance it may have had, in my opinion, being that it is the author writing and not empty air. Truthfully, I didn't actually read it yet, I will at a later date. Oddly enough, I find no credibility in most scientific "discovery" as it pertains to knowledge of the Outside. Individual scientists are usually too busy trying to brown-nose Darwin in some way rather than discover a truth outside of their own box; now everything they do is measured in millions upon millions of imaginary years.
Today we are encouraged to test and question everything, yet Science (so-called) seems to be the one area that people will most readily believe anything they hear by faith in the authority of some human.

Somewhere in this jumble of words is my point, if you find it I give you kudos! hahaha

[JJ Burke]

your response is either way over my head or way under my ass, i'm not sure which.

elaboration
what appears at first to be a puritanical closed-mindedness might actually, through satire or some vehicular treatment, make a substantial argument in the guise of silly ignorance. i don't know how crafty you are. i'd like to think you're playing a character or something.

[luxcthonis]

Aug 14, 2008 17:14:53 GMT -6 JJ Burke said:

your response is either way over my head or way under my ass, i'm not sure which.

elaboration
what appears at first to be a puritanical closed-mindedness might actually, through satire or some vehicular treatment, make a substantial argument in the guise of silly ignorance. i don't know how crafty you are. i'd like to think you're playing a character or something.

Perhaps you are speaking to me?


Too often I attempt to expound upon some certain subject to offer a difference in opinion; usually the result is either me trying to explain something which cannot fully be described in words, or else I lose interest half-way Dealing with humans is quite tedious.

"Playing a character?" Aren't we all? Oh yes, I forgot, we don't 'identify' or 'consider' here I don't play RPG's if thats what you mean.

I don't doubt that what I say is over most peoples heads

I have noticed that the majority of people who claim to be either "Awakened" or "Enlightened" are really very scattered, and sometimes light-years behind. Humans are so amusingly pretentious, hehe

I tend to believe in a "Reality" which doesn't need me as anything but a foodsource. Of course, MY OWN reality, that which I perceive through my senses, is of my own creation. Nevertheless, I perceive a "Reality" which would, can, and does exist despite my senses. Even if planet Eridu was obliterated, the rest of the planets would still roll aimless.

Everyone is allowed to think what they desire. I'd like to think I'm Batman, but I'd be wrong. Even if I wear a Batman costume and fight crime, I'm still not the REAL Batman. (Objective Reality once again). I am merely a Subjective Batman ;D

As for being Puritanical... yes, perhaps, I quite like that label.

Satanists hide well in churches