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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Apr 28, 2012 23:31:29 GMT -6
You're saying exactly what I said, but in a different way. Betty Shine made the distinction between love and hate, good and bad as all the major religions would; Basic morality. I guess the starting point for a 'moral disposition' would be, to be on the receiving end of unjust behaviour, stealing etc, and perhaps this would soon engender one or enlighten us to better behaviour, just like Jesus' teachings. How would one, for example, account for Hitler's hatred and extermination of the Jewish people? Or does moral code not apply there, because he got away with it? Therefore a simple distinction between good and bad is given to us in a civilised society. People who lack this basic intuition could possibly fall into the group of what is known as 'psychopaths'. Your use of Hitler is ridiculous, it is completely irrelevant, unless you think the average spell could bring about unmitigated genocide. Where talking about a moral code within magic not a moral code to action or behaviour. Also you made the point "the implication is that there is a greater morality", which I'm saying there is not and therefore isn't one in the application of magic. People have created a set of morals to live by to ensure a cohesive society. However that moral code is not ordained upon us, it's wide spread perpetration within humanity is a product of natural selection. Humans that help each other are more likely to fuck.
yaji ash-shuthath
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Post by jtellio on Apr 29, 2012 6:13:24 GMT -6
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Post by jtellio on Apr 29, 2012 6:26:29 GMT -6
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Post by sin on Apr 29, 2012 9:25:04 GMT -6
To Cora Sahn: I have personal knowledge of practising cermonial magic and spell casting through using astrology/new moon tides (evoking Saturn, magic circles) when I was a teenager. I later had a slight psychiatric 'breakdown' which may or may not have been precipitated by spell casting, because it caused internal anxiety. This is an example in psychology (as I mentioned). Your internal instability caused the psychotic break. This has more to do with your psyche and less and less to do with the effects of magic. There is a pathology which can be traced to the causal effects you experienced. There is a book I can recommend called 'The True Believer', it examines the causes and effects of mass movements. The 'occult movement' is simply among them.
See www.amazon.com/The-True-Believer-Movements-Perennial/dp/0060505915/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335713153&sr=8-1
I am asking for a specific example of how you witnessed 'harm' being done to another person by magical means. Provide me with a specific example of your spell casting and its affects on another person deemed 'harmful'.
^ This statement reinforces my point.
Which do you believe you are?
Based on your personal experiences and the effects of your own beliefs on your psyche?
It sounds to me like you put too much stock in what 'authors' tell you about the nature of reality. Do you have any thoughts of your own? What does your internal essence 'know' about reality? Set aside what you've been programmed to believe, and peel away the influences over your mind a layer at a time. Awaken from the false reality you've built for yourself, it sounds as if its having a deep-seated affect on your existence. From where I'm sitting, to an alarming level. Do you not recognize this yourself? If not, tell me why.
Awake! The time is now!
CS
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Post by jtellio on Apr 30, 2012 1:15:32 GMT -6
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Post by jtellio on Apr 30, 2012 5:46:14 GMT -6
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Post by sin on Apr 30, 2012 6:29:45 GMT -6
To Cora Sahn: Thanks for your reply. Well, to elaborate, the ceremonial magic I performed was for me, not for others.
I see. Well then, what are you waiting for? Give it a try. Curse me. I challenge you to curse me with all of your might. Why not test your abilities? How can you make a reasonable assessment of 'harmful' magic without your testimony? As I commented previously, this is the psychological condition of the magician. If you experienced anxiety, then this stems from your foundational beliefs, and what you've been programmed to believe to be true. There is structure to experience, patterns in which the 'mind' processes experience. Change the structure, you change the experience. I will offer myself as your sacrificial lamb if it will teach you a lesson. So, curse me.
Magic changes the perception of the Magi, as thus your 'harmful magic' sounds as if you have been unsuccessful in practice, but you can get better with self-discipline and proper training.
What changes would you like to see actualize in yourself? Tell me what steps you have taken thus far to manifest them.
CS
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Post by sin on Apr 30, 2012 6:32:44 GMT -6
To Cora Sahn: Re providing specific examples of magic designed to harm others, and follow through results; perhaps consult Venger Satanis, as his comments seem to show an agreement or conversant with this approach!
I have no need to consult VS at this time, as my inquiry is directed to you specifically.
If you conclude that the 'harmful magic' can only effect the wielder of magic, then I encourage you to learn how to manifest positive changes in your being; thus shaping a new reality.
CS
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Post by jtellio on Apr 30, 2012 9:11:34 GMT -6
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Post by sin on Apr 30, 2012 9:27:00 GMT -6
Well, I have no desire to curse or inflict harm on you. I wouldn't want to, and probably the only person it would harm would, of course, be me, by rights. As I said before, there are some examples of people doing black magic or destruction spells from what I've seen on You Tube et al. Betty Shine encourages us to heal ourselves and others through visualisation and chakras. Mind energy expands, and we can 'link' to other minds. She healed many people. To me this is far more beneficial, and ethical. It's a bit like faith healing, which many Christian Spiritualists do. It's done to help humankind, and seeks no payment. The only other person who wrote about her black magic involvement was Doreen Irvine, who could kill birds in flight. I would not want such powers, and she lost hers once exorcised. I guess she may have exaggerated, who knows for sure. You mentioned other magic, which I haven't studied.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Shine ^ This Betty Shine?
*Some examples* is pretty vague. If Betty told you that you could turn your soul inside out, would you believe her? If so why, if not why not?
Believe me when I say I'm familiar with Chakra and healing work, this isn't the same thing as shaping your reality through magical means.
As far as 'ethics' is concerned, what Ethical Code? Social Morality?
I'm also a skilled exorcist, this isn't "The Exorcism" all possession is willful, and it's psychological. There are a lot of misconceptions perpetuated by the media, or horrid documentaries from an outside view. Possession rituals are present in nearly every culture around the world. I'm not familiar with this Betty Shine or her claims, but it sounds like she's profiting from your ignorance. Is that Ethical?
I can direct you to our tomes for a primer to our Cult paradigm. Have you read Cthulhu Cult or Liber A:O?
The time is now! CS
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Post by jtellio on Apr 30, 2012 9:39:27 GMT -6
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Post by jtellio on Apr 30, 2012 9:43:40 GMT -6
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Post by sin on Apr 30, 2012 11:57:26 GMT -6
The exercises Betty recommends, which I am currently reading use simple visualisation techniques, designed to release congested mind energy. Going back to your request about specific black magic. There was a British national news item two months ago, where two black people killed a young boy and were using magic against him; the actual killing was a physical act. In Africa these practices are quite widespread, including cutting skin off people's thighs to use in rites. A good you tube video is by Sandra Cheryl Richardson Wicca & Witchcraft Beliefs : Black Magic Spells . She tell us there are two classifications White and Black. She recommends to avoid black at all costs, it has a low vibrational effect, and they can take the life force from the magician - dangerous territory.
I'm aware of the 'effects' of superstition and corruption all over the continent of Africa, this is more localized and attributed to the beliefs of the local people. As you stated, the physical act of murder was the cause for the harm but it's more so the localized belief of the people, coupled with corruption which is the underlying cause for the effects of murder.
This duality placed upon magic is based in modern thought. Magic is neither black nor white, the intentionality of the person conducting the magic is what is referred to as either ethical or unethical.
In the late 50's - early 60's there arose a need to paint modern Witchcraft in a new light, to distance itself from the historical superstitions about witches which is Ancient. Modern witches had a need for acceptance, and to distance themselves from things 'evil' to force witchcraft into mainstream society. So, things like the 'Wiccan Rede' were written by the likes of Doreen Valiente to guide modern witches. This Rede is always a subject of controversy among modern witches, because it is widely misunderstood.
In Africa, 'witchdoctors' guard villagers against witchcraft. Even if their 'practices' require that an Albino be hunted down and killed for it's parts to be used in such charms. So while an African Witchdoctor may 'intend' to protect the village from harmful magic, in his attempts to guard the people he is perpetuating a need to murder innocent people for their 'magical' body parts. Which is unethical?
'Black Magic' spells, deal with the person conducting the spell and have little to do with the target; especially if they are widely unaware this spell is being thrown out into the ether against them. It has more of an effect if the intended has knowledge and holds specific beliefs about the 'harm' of magic. In essence, they do themselves in, even if only to become anxious over the known incident.
There is no need to 'avoid' black magic, it's classified as such in some occult circles due to the intentionality behind it. If I were to curse you myself, do you believe you can avoid my intentions?
CS
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Post by jtellio on May 1, 2012 1:07:26 GMT -6
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Post by jtellio on May 1, 2012 6:38:53 GMT -6
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Post by sin on May 1, 2012 8:06:20 GMT -6
There is no black or white magic, except the intention of the practitioner: well, we would all accept that.
Would you accept that some people deserve a can of magical whoop-ass?
This has more to do with the psyche than it does with harnessing bad spirits from some imagined realm. We act as intercessors between ourselves and ourselves. In the Cult paradigm we utilize the mythos as the stage for this story of our Old Ones. Imagine if you will, that within yourself you have many selves. If they are in disagreement with each other, i.e. not on the same page, how can 'you' know who or what 'you' are? When you say "I want." how can you know which 'I' wants it?
Man harbors his demons and projects them at will. The 'will' is being directly addressed here in the cult. Mechanical will vs. True Will.
Known by many other names aside 'witchcraft', but yes it does. And? Christians are equally magicians, they are building an entire reality for themselves and exist within the landscape of their accepted cosmology. There is magic at work there, equally 'witchery'. The bible is a wholly occult work, arguably the greatest Grimoire the world has ever known.
They? Who is they? You should be more specific, because at closer examination you will find that you are mistaken. God in the abstract is ever-present as is redemption. The end to satisfy the means, is 'hidden'; thus occult to many.
It appears to me that you have accepted the reality that Betty Shine is not only your guru but a 'clairvoyant' as well. You put stock in this idea of clairvoyance, but other similar notions seem absurd to you?
Let's review:
1. Black and white magic exist 2. Betty Shine's advice and claims should be considered 3. The history of man and his religion should be viewed through Lucifer's Lens 4. There are 'evil spirits' to be avoided
5. Afterlife 6. Healing should be the intention
The contemporary language in the Bible is alterations made to the original language translated from early Aramaic to Greek, to Latin and so forth. I wouldn't take too much of it literally, but instead try to identify the lessons being taught through parable. They are not much different than modern books which advise people to achieve good things in their lives to become the best being they can be.
CS
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Post by sin on May 1, 2012 8:10:12 GMT -6
To Cora Sahn: Another case study about dangers of certain areas of ceremonial magic can be found in psychic Cassandra Eason's books on developing (psychic) abilities. One person relates how as a serving soldier he and a friend performed a ceremony to conjur up a demon, from a spell book they found, for a joke. However, the room went icy cold, and things disappeared or were found thrown around the room, later. They were very shaken up, and decided not to mess with this again.
Again, I think you are missing my point. I am not asking for 'case-studies' (dubious at best). I am asking for your experential knowledge of bad magic and harmful results.
Upon reading the above anecdote and the claims made, and you can not identify the psychological aspects?
Again I dare you, curse me. What are you afraid of? Curse me to hell.
CS
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Post by jtellio on May 1, 2012 9:37:27 GMT -6
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Post by sin on May 1, 2012 9:56:25 GMT -6
Well, I have no desire to hate or curse you - for what reason? Hate is destructive.
And you honestly can not identify to the positive effects of destruction? Hate is love and love is hate. Prove me wrong.
You do not recognize the destructive force of healing? In what manner is cancer not destroyed through evasive surgery and chemotherapy?
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Post by jtellio on May 2, 2012 1:10:49 GMT -6
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Post by jtellio on May 2, 2012 1:12:23 GMT -6
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Post by sin on May 2, 2012 7:41:53 GMT -6
I improved by psychologically dissecting what I did and becoming more rationale: in itself, it was nothing. So you identify that it was a psychological issue, and resolved it through rationalizing the affects of your actions/influences on your psyche then? Ok then, you seem to be questioning the 'cause' of the anxiety in the first place. What do you think was the underlying cause? Magic or Mentalism? Is there a difference, and if so what?
I could get a hundred people to write 'testimonials' for me to promote a book. It's not a hard task. Perhaps you might take a look at Mark Twain's "On the decay of the Art of Lying". It's available through thoughtaudio.com www.thoughtaudio.com/titlelist/TA0016-ArtofLying/index.html
I'm not questioning the use of healing methods for whole body health. I'm a Reiki Master, I get it.
What I am questioning is your thoughts and beliefs surrounding 'harmful magic'. I have not read any experiential knowledge you hold on the subject. You seem to be forming your opinions and beliefs based on what you have read about the effects of harmful magic ala Betty Shine.
Transcendentalism is practiced the world over. My personal tradition borrows from cultural practices and historical traditions and reconstructs them in a very modern atmosphere, environment, and aesthetic platform. The effects are backed with scientific data to support the effects of heightened awareness through levels of Ecstasis.
Consider the effects of prayer on the brain. Healing-work has a similar effect in that its results are reliant on the effectiveness of the 'healer' on the person's beliefs. Even the Cancer Centers of America are using a holistic approach to healing. Cancer patients which have had evasive surgery and Chemo respond better when the whole body is healed. They nurture quick recovery by adding spirituality to the mix. Whether that be meditation, yoga, energy work, etc. Makes little difference, it's the effects that are sought. Mapping out a proper program for the individual is key.
What precisely are you not sure of?
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Post by sin on May 2, 2012 7:50:57 GMT -6
Positive effects of destruction is a bit like the formulation of the United Nations due to Hitler's meglomania.
I will use this analogy:
Imagine I am a sculptor. I have a slab of marble and my tools. I chip away at the marble for months to pull out the image in my head. As the chips fall to the floor, this marble is 'destroyed'. What is produced from it, is a prolific work of art. It's not just the art piece to focus on, but my creative process in sculpting.
Levels of being achieved through destruction.
Do you understand?
The same is true for forms of destruction which reap a reconstruction, something more and refined.
Take this cult for instance. The true nature of a cult, is to refine. This term is derived from Latin 'cultus'. If you choose to participate, a false sense of reality is chipped away to reveal a new reality. Perhaps one that you see yourself succeeding in your life.
You can read a hundred books, this is having 'knowledge'. You 'know' the contents of the book, does this make you wise?
There is a distinction to be made between learning and education., having knowledge and holding wisdom.
You used the analogy: Is that all that came out of Hitler's megalomania? How would you describe the state of Germany today? Europe over all? How does that compare to the 'effects' of Hitler's megalomania?
CS
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Post by jtellio on May 2, 2012 10:07:48 GMT -6
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Post by sin on May 2, 2012 10:44:36 GMT -6
I understand your analogy about sculpting from marble, which is interesting. Positive thinking about illnesses certainly is useful, and I think Betty was an early exponent of this, before the New Age concept became part of the zeitgeist. I don't think it's 'positive thinking' per say, but understanding the subjectiveness of harm and destruction.
Belief is foundation. It's fundamental to any people-based system. It is fundamental to this cult. "Belief is reality".
see: www.scribd.com/doc/62322678/Belief-is-Foundation
Not if she's trying to sell you something. Say for instance you cursed me, and I had no knowledge of it, no real belief in harmful magics, do you really think your curse will have any affect on me what-so-ever?
Fostering this type of belief is paramount in you finding Betty Shine credible. So, any claim she makes you will take at face value vs. with more critical examination.
Many 'spiritualists' peddle books and wares, and to reap in the profits they need believers. A fan-base. They need you to believe they have 'gifts' and are special snowflakes.
The fact is, energy can't be pulled out of the sky like dancing penguins, but we do use energy, and are made up of it. Some people claim to have a sixth sense. All this is, is heightened awareness and nurturing intuition. Every human being has this. It's not some special 10%. If you actively work on your own levels of awareness you pick up on things unseen by most.
Consider the 'sight' of NEO in the Matrix. What really caused him to be able to 'see' the code and the Matrix for what it really was? Why was the 'Question' so important from the start? If you recall the bar scene when Neo meets Trinity. Do you remember what she whispers in his ear? Why is this scene pinnacle to the development of the story-line? How does it play a role here, now, in this conversation?
Wiccan Morality and Ethics is not universal, hell half the time 'Wiccans' pick and choose like everyone else. There may be very deliberate and meticulous reasons for invoking 'bad spirits', and what those are exactly is as I stated previously. I'm sure it's fundamental to many an occultist paradigm that boogeymen live in their realities. It's the main reason why I try not to demystify these things too much. I know how important it is to have personal belief in an individual paradigm.
For conversation sake, let's just say I hold this belief. I believe in 'bad spirits' and I invoke them into myself to perform an act for a self-serving need. Say, some jerk harmed my child. The legal system offered me no 'justice' for my child. Why then is it unethical and immoral for me to invoke these minions of the abyss to do my bidding and smite that jerk? Should I think positively and *hope* some justice will befall my child? *Hope* that the universe will make it right in some way? In what manner is that utilizing personal power?
Perhaps you have some cultural influence affecting your ability to see this issue on a wider scale. Superstitions surrounding witches, witchcraft, sorcery, demonolatry, and the like have been around for thousands of years. I don't expect to have it scrubbed from your brain from this dialogue but perhaps it might trigger you to consider your own thoughts and ideas and examine them more critically.
It sounds to me, and this is just an assessment based on the information you've offered here, that you are attracted to specific ideas. In example, if you are only reading books that perpetuate 'harmful magic' as always 'bad', this is influencing you. If you can only see magic in a specific context, it may develop into cognitive dissonance. You might step out of your self-imposed confort zone from time to time, see the perspectives of others, and determine if your 'reactions' are coming from mechanized will or true will.
There are just some things that are rooted in the very essence of our being; ideas we hold that we may not have been taught, or even influenced to hold. There are also ideas we hold that are the products of indoctrination and programming. How can you know the difference? You have referenced Betty Shine throughout this dialogue to a nearly alarming volume. Just consider it.
That's a start.
CS
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Post by jtellio on May 3, 2012 1:56:37 GMT -6
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Post by jtellio on May 3, 2012 5:28:00 GMT -6
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Post by sin on May 3, 2012 8:55:58 GMT -6
Well, surely all ‘New Age’ Spirituality by its very nature operates outside received ‘orthodox’ or traditional medicine, so Betty Shine is no worse. She allows the reader to explore. There is no invoking of entities or suchlike, which could well cause anxiety. Alternatively, Caroline Meyer’s book on Energy Medicine and healing uses lots of traditional healing techniques and the concept of energy, chakras, meridian lines etc, which is quite respected, but makes less ‘supernatural’ claims as does Shine’s. I would have to investigate things like Reiki. I’m sure most people would feel protective of loved ones and children, that is natural. I have a young nephew.
Would I be correct in stating, that you are placing *blame* with the author, for your anxiety?
CS
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Post by jtellio on May 3, 2012 9:29:36 GMT -6
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Post by sin on May 3, 2012 9:47:48 GMT -6
The spells I did belonged to a different book, about 22 years ago. I think a disclaimer could be useful, for people prone to anxiety, or youngsters. I've never felt that Betty Shine was bad, it was intuitive that she was a gentler teacher. The Reiki you mentioned actually seems very similar, with the concept of energies, to Betty's ideas. But they mentioned something about it using a special energy, different from normal. What books deal with this (it's Japanese, I take it)? It certainly seems quite credible, and worth looking at. How can the author know what effects these spells will have on your psyche? What formula of belief would have to be present to cause an anxiety attack? If that were the case, then all books should have a disclaimer, don't you think?
You can be more aggressively duped, or duped more gently. In either case, you are being influenced by what you are reading. Whether negative or positive is reliant on what you *do* with the knowledge you obtain from reading books.
Reiki is considered universal, but yes it began in Japan. I learned the more Western format but through a Reiki Master lineaged to Mikao Usui. It's not necessary, in fact there are more and more self-taught Reiki practitioners than there are lineaged. A good example is Diane Stein, she's a published author and self-taught Reiki Master. She's a feminist, so she adds a lot of her hoakie faminism in the mix, but it's more so understanding the concepts and applying them, than it is the politics.
So, what we are discussing presently is the 'politics' of magic. Harmul vs. Helpful.
The 'energy' is not 'special' by any means. It's fostering a belief. I always approach things as a skeptic, and through skeptical inquiry you can get to the heart of the matter. Some people need all the glitz and glam, they need to be fooled into believing I have magic powers and can channel 'energy' from some magical place. I can provide that. The bottom line is, belief is magical. The 'energy' can become 'special'. If the person feels that they are receiving healing energy, and feel healed - that's all that really matters. This is why it is so important for a Reiki healer to 'prepare' their mind before conducting a healing session. There are personal affirmations stated before the session begins:
Just for today:
I will not worry I will not be angry I will be grateful I will do my work earnestly I will be kind
So then, the magic first begins in the mind then resonates outward through action. Some Reiki practitioners prefer to have no personal contact (no physical laying of hands), while others feel its detrimental to make that connection with the person seeking healing. It's a judgment call, based on the person you are dealing with.
I suppose, the 'magical' method is a matter of personal preference. These 'spells' you dabbled with did not reap a positive effect, so you steer clear of them. I can't help but wonder, why this effect was produced.
CS
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