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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 1, 2011 14:05:53 GMT -6
[/b][/color] Yes, in your case and in my opinion, really. Am I your Devil, Jason? Your scapegoat? Your Satan? [/qoute] Let us remain objective. I clearly pointed out that to me, you are a negative example... or maybe a "false positive" would be more to your suiting. Why try to make my words mean more than what I have typed? If you saw this reversal in me and the Cult of Cthulhu, then why start a new Grotto opposed to just a few elements within this school instead of confronting me with your opinions like a man? Why sneak behind my back? Is it because you only realized how deluded and terrible I was after you were kicked out? [/b][/color] Ah, the private-conversation game... You were approached with everything that would have been implemented in the "Heretics" grotto, and everything that is expressed in the "Cthulhu Heresy" book. You lacked the stomach for an autonomous organization, a Cult of Cthulhu that existed with your leadership as an example rather than your hands nervously at the controls at every given moment. We made the mistake of communicating with you privately, so we had to go public. TC pulled the trigger earlier than I would have liked, but your reaction continues to prove both entertaining and disappointing none-the-less. Your "sour grapes" statement is amusing as well, especially when you try to pawn it off on private conversations. Either way, it would be an act of Internal Identification for me to be moved by the opinions of others against my goals, wouldn't it? As you are right now, the Cult of Cthulhu can do nothing for you, Jason. If other Cultists still desire your presence, then I hope they will step forward on your behalf. I will not judge them, but wish to hear their reasoning for keeping an ungrateful and arrogant ex-student around these boards. Or perhaps I've mis-characterized you...? When you are able to characterize yourself, perhaps then you will be able to mis-characterize me. "Belief is reality". I am as anyone sees me, which is moot in relation to me. See me as you will. No need for them to step forward and hazard your wrath. You have read the responses to my introduction, and hopefully saw that your moderator requested my input on his Anxiety/Identification thread. You are the only one calling for me to leave. If you want me to go, if my message threatens your own, if my alternative viewpoint cannot be voiced in the Cult of Cthulhu, simply say so. If you cannot handle my voice here, or feel that your followers will be corrupted by my presence, then say the word and I will leave. My intention here is not to debate with you. I am offering something in trade with those here who themselves have value and a commodity with which to bargain. I present only another point of view, and leave it to who ever takes an interest to determine for themselves the value of that view. I offer, at the most basic, food for thought and discussion. If that is not welcome here, say the word. Is it inappropriate to point out the negativity in your expression throughout this exchange? I cannot guess from where you operate internally, but in this exchange do you think your expression of negativity is befitting?
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Post by herbert on Mar 1, 2011 14:53:46 GMT -6
Really? I couldn't have simply meant that while I somewhat like your presence here, it may cause more problems than it resolves. Mixed feelings about a subject are too far out of the realm of possibility? Your thinking is very black and white or to put it in 4th Way terminology... formatory.False pretenses? Not really. The combination of self-development, the Fourth Way, and Satanism (true Satanism, not that Modern Satanism drivel) is the reason why many of us are here. It's what I and the Cthulhu Cult are all about. If I'm so opposed to those things, then why bother with us at all? You've made your advertisement pitch... what else keeps you here except trying to obstruct my Work? Speaking of which...
My Work is not Gurdjieff's Work in the way that no man can put his hand in the same river twice. The stream is constantly moving, always shifting... subtle at times but fluctuation is constant. I am not an identical clone of Gurdjieff. I must be my own person, my own Master with a teaching style best suited towards my unique essence and approach.
Having said that, my Work is extremely similar to the essence of what Gurdjieff taught. The fundamental divergence is something that you've created in your own mind because your ego is attached to the subjective truth that Venger As'Nas Satanis is chock full of poppycock.
Subservient to me? Absolutely not. If a long-established, compatible, and aesthetically congruent Man Number 7 appeared tonight, then I would do whatever I had to in order to become his student. I don't want Cultists to serve me, kiss my ass, or feel they are beneath me. I would love for others to be on my level. That is a moment I welcome with open arms. In fact, I doubt that I could Ascend alone. Am I your Devil, Jason? Your scapegoat? Your Satan?
If you saw this reversal in me and the Cult of Cthulhu, then why start a new Grotto opposed to just a few elements within this school instead of confronting me with your opinions like a man? Why sneak behind my back? Is it because you only realized how deluded and terrible I was after you were kicked out? Many have come to me since last November with the phrase "sour grapes" upon their lips, in reference to you.As you are right now, the Cult of Cthulhu can do nothing for you, Jason. If other Cultists still desire your presence, then I hope they will step forward on your behalf. I will not judge them, but wish to hear their reasoning for keeping an ungrateful and arrogant ex-student around these boards. Or perhaps I've mis-characterized you...?Obviously, we do not fully understand each other. I did as you requested. Am I the only one who finds Herbert tiresome? Really? Ok, guy, why don't you find me some passage in Gurdjieff's teaching where he says that internal considering is good and external considering is bad. Any moron? Why did I ever think you were a Jason puppet? You've just destroyed any credibility or good will you had, Herbert. More and more, you strike me as a troll. This is your first and last warning. Read our forum guidelines and rules if you wish to continue being here.
As for the information you posted, it has precious little to do with practical Fourth Way knowledge. You would do well to leave that stuff alone in favor of Self-Remembering. I'm not here to audition for your approval. See what we're about, make your choice, and then either join this Conscious School or leave quietly.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
eh ok, Venger As'Nas Satanis let us not continue with skewed vision. i was unaware of any attitude conveyed by myself. i have and will continue to answer any questions or commentary to me with care and openness. please demonstrate to me how i have been disrespectful. if this all sets on my use of the word moron, then i will not use it again. it was used to demonstrate that a person of little understanding or knowledge could see where i was coming from. it was not meant to convey disrespect. to answer your questions clearly, which you've not extended the same to me. i found this place by googling something like 4th way school. when i first arrived there was an impression of a great deal of drama, so i did not come back for a while. the other day i was reading an article online and the mention of cthulhu and i remembered this place. i came back and saw some great posts on the 4th way, i then decided to join the discussion. apparently my joining of the discussion was all it took to create disharmony? that is what i asked you for guy, and so far you've done nothing of the sort. instead you've been kind enough to give me dismissive rhetoric and a hard time. for a guy who is all about the external consideration, you fail to recognize that i have given you the lion's share of it in our conversation. have you given me the same? as to your how; when G speaks of a thought it deals with a specific center, when he speaks of sensation it deals with a different center, and a desire is yet another center. each of these centers are corresponding with a cosmos, this is why G considered the enneagram a perfect view of cosmology. need further explanation? i cannot see how this exemplifies any point contrary to man needing a balance between external and internal considerations. if anything outside of that could even be proposed and have a leg to stand on in the 4th way, it might be that internal consideration is at best irrelevant and external influence should be chosen consciously. however i will stick to my first statement that properly we should be balanced between consideration for others and ourselves. are you so blind to seeing that being happens on different levels? the small cosmos is an atomic state of being, and the holy cosmos is completely another? look guy i don't wish to be disrespectful here, but you are not making any sense
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Post by darkprism on Mar 1, 2011 15:29:35 GMT -6
I, for one, am learning some valuable insights regarding the Fourth Way by viewing this thread. If the continuation of opposing viewpoints serves as a catalyst for each individual to consider The Work more carefully, then that would be a good thing, right?
I think if the discussion remains respectful and doesn't lead down the road of slander, then it will remain fruitful.
I think both Brother Satanis and Jason Sorrell have some great insights regarding the Work, yet considering the recent, unfortunate happenings of last year, there may be some undertones emanating from this discussion that may bear less fruit, especially regarding the manner in which Jason has re-presented himself. It hasn't been necessarily negative, but perhaps slightly arrogant with a side serving of smart-ass at times. LOL. But that's ok, as I respect and like the guy, and understand it's part and parcel of his sense of humor. It seems the general tone of his posts have become a little more respectful.
Herbert, now that we know you are from a Fourth Way school, I think your contributions and knowledge could be well appreciated by many. I am open to learning from this discussion and if I didn't have to go to work right now I would try to post something better.
Brother Satanis, you've created the platform for this discussion and are a unique and inspirational individual, IMO. We are all here because you've taken the time to create something different. A blending of ideas and philosophies that many find useful. I know I've been encouraged to discover myself and know myself from your writings and your links to many valuable teachings. If it wasn't for this forum, I wouldn't know what the Fourth Way was. Your guidance and personable character has been immensely appreciated.
Finally Jason, no one can doubt your amazing grasp of Satanism and the Fourth Way. Your posts on this forum have been, like Brother Satanis', imperative to my own understanding and application of the Work.
Awake!
Dark Prism
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Post by ixianpsychonaut on Mar 1, 2011 16:02:41 GMT -6
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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 1, 2011 16:13:12 GMT -6
I, for one, am learning some valuable insights regarding the Fourth Way by viewing this thread. If the continuation of opposing viewpoints serves as a catalyst for each individual to consider The Work more carefully, then that would be a good thing, right? I think if the discussion remains respectful and doesn't lead down the road of slander, then it will remain fruitful. I think both Brother Satanis and Jason Sorrell have some great insights regarding the Work, yet considering the recent, unfortunate happenings of last year, there may be some undertones emanating from this discussion that may bear less fruit, especially regarding the manner in which Jason has re-presented himself. It hasn't been necessarily negative, but perhaps slightly arrogant with a side serving of smart-ass at times. LOL. But that's ok, as I respect and like the guy, and understand it's part and parcel of his sense of humor. It seems the general tone of his posts have become a little more respectful. Herbert, now that we know you are from a Fourth Way school, I think your contributions and knowledge could be well appreciated by many. I am open to learning from this discussion and if I didn't have to go to work right now I would try to post something better. Brother Satanis, you've created the platform for this discussion and are a unique and inspirational individual, IMO. We are all here because you've taken the time to create something different. A blending of ideas and philosophies that many find useful. I know I've been encouraged to discover myself and know myself from your writings and your links to many valuable teachings. If it wasn't for this forum, I wouldn't know what the Fourth Way was. Your guidance and personable character has been immensely appreciated. Finally Jason, no one can doubt your amazing grasp of Satanism and the Fourth Way. Your posts on this forum have been, like Brother Satanis', imperative to my own understanding and application of the Work. Awake! Dark Prism Thank you for your kind words. Especially about my being a smart-ass. It is one of my highly honed attributes. Really, I am glad you appreciate what I have to offer. I recognize the tremendous growth your have accomplished yourself, and would be very appreciative if you commented on my blog. Your exchange is definitely a fair value for my own. Finally Jason, no one can doubt your amazing grasp of Satanism and the Fourth Way. Be careful about absolutes. Someone here definitely doubts the value of my messages, and has been extremely vocal about it. I encourage others to have doubts about anything anyone says here. Take nothing at face value, do your own research, and make up your own mind! I know you get this, DP, but there are some here who do not. And others here who outright oppose it.
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Post by herbert on Mar 1, 2011 16:44:49 GMT -6
I, for one, am learning some valuable insights regarding the Fourth Way by viewing this thread. If the continuation of opposing viewpoints serves as a catalyst for each individual to consider The Work more carefully, then that would be a good thing, right? I think if the discussion remains respectful and doesn't lead down the road of slander, then it will remain fruitful. I think both Brother Satanis and Jason Sorrell have some great insights regarding the Work, yet considering the recent, unfortunate happenings of last year, there may be some undertones emanating from this discussion that may bear less fruit, especially regarding the manner in which Jason has re-presented himself. It hasn't been necessarily negative, but perhaps slightly arrogant with a side serving of smart-ass at times. LOL. But that's ok, as I respect and like the guy, and understand it's part and parcel of his sense of humor. It seems the general tone of his posts have become a little more respectful. Herbert, now that we know you are from a Fourth Way school, I think your contributions and knowledge could be well appreciated by many. I am open to learning from this discussion and if I didn't have to go to work right now I would try to post something better. Brother Satanis, you've created the platform for this discussion and are a unique and inspirational individual, IMO. We are all here because you've taken the time to create something different. A blending of ideas and philosophies that many find useful. I know I've been encouraged to discover myself and know myself from your writings and your links to many valuable teachings. If it wasn't for this forum, I wouldn't know what the Fourth Way was. Your guidance and personable character has been immensely appreciated. Finally Jason, no one can doubt your amazing grasp of Satanism and the Fourth Way. Your posts on this forum have been, like Brother Satanis', imperative to my own understanding and application of the Work. Awake! Dark Prism thanks guy!
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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 1, 2011 19:44:07 GMT -6
You'll forgive me if I don't quote a string of replies at this point. For the benefit of Jason and Herbert I'll say right off the bat that I'm not affiliated with the Cult of Cthulhu beyond a curiousness right now. I believe (please note the term) that your original Sermon, Jason, is limited in that it repeatedly assumes that each person is a seperate individual within a larger world. So at best your description of higher awareness would mean being unencumbered by the first three series of senses you mentioned. And then seeing the objective world unburdened by them. The logical rebuttal to that might be to suggest that if our three sense tools you mention are the things giving us our view of the world, what's to say it exists at all without them and isn't completely a fabrication of them and there is nothing to see without them? I didn't mention senses, or limit perception to three senses. I mentioned the filter of the mind, and I discussed the option where it is assumed that all that exists is a fabrication of the mind. You begin your argument making it evident that you did not read the blog. Regardless, if the argument you present is the case, then you are simply a fabrication of my mind, and arguing with myself would be a wasted effort. Addressing the rest of your response from this point of view is unnecessary.
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Mar 1, 2011 22:25:02 GMT -6
I, for one, am learning some valuable insights regarding the Fourth Way by viewing this thread. If the continuation of opposing viewpoints serves as a catalyst for each individual to consider The Work more carefully, then that would be a good thing, right? I think if the discussion remains respectful and doesn't lead down the road of slander, then it will remain fruitful. I think both Brother Satanis and Jason Sorrell have some great insights regarding the Work, yet considering the recent, unfortunate happenings of last year, there may be some undertones emanating from this discussion that may bear less fruit, especially regarding the manner in which Jason has re-presented himself. It hasn't been necessarily negative, but perhaps slightly arrogant with a side serving of smart-ass at times. LOL. But that's ok, as I respect and like the guy, and understand it's part and parcel of his sense of humor. It seems the general tone of his posts have become a little more respectful. Herbert, now that we know you are from a Fourth Way school, I think your contributions and knowledge could be well appreciated by many. I am open to learning from this discussion and if I didn't have to go to work right now I would try to post something better. Brother Satanis, you've created the platform for this discussion and are a unique and inspirational individual, IMO. We are all here because you've taken the time to create something different. A blending of ideas and philosophies that many find useful. I know I've been encouraged to discover myself and know myself from your writings and your links to many valuable teachings. If it wasn't for this forum, I wouldn't know what the Fourth Way was. Your guidance and personable character has been immensely appreciated. Finally Jason, no one can doubt your amazing grasp of Satanism and the Fourth Way. Your posts on this forum have been, like Brother Satanis', imperative to my own understanding and application of the Work. Awake! Dark Prism Since I'm Jason's girlfriend, I don't know if my opinion counts about whether or not he should stay. However, if it does, I'll just say "Ditto" to Dark Prism. As for herbert, while he may be a little rough around the edges, I think his questions are valid. The CoC hasn't seen this much Fourth Way discussion since the Decree of Heresy thread, and I, for one, am glad for the redirection. Awake! Apsara Kamalli Esoteric Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by pseudosherlock on Mar 2, 2011 9:46:33 GMT -6
"I didn't mention senses, or limit perception to three senses. I mentioned the filter of the mind, and I discussed the option where it is assumed that all that exists is a fabrication of the mind. You begin your argument making it evident that you did not read the blog."
I apologize I didn't use the same terms as you and translated them into my own. I was referring to the first three levels, or men, or whatever. I also described them as "sense tools". But I suppose "perceptive tools" might be better. Meaning physical body, emotions, and intellect. The three things we use to interact with and perceive the physical world.
"Regardless, if the argument you present is the case, then you are simply a fabrication of my mind, and arguing with myself would be a wasted effort. Addressing the rest of your response from this point of view is unnecessary."
I can understand why you wouldn't want to actually discuss your beliefs as they would then question your reality created from them. I realize in your head, as in pretty much everyone's, you had imagined you were going to state your views and everyone else would be blown away by your insight and agree with you. Which is what you described as "discussion". Unfortunately, if that ever really happened then you'd get pretty bored.
And you are right about the futility of discussion in that light. It sounds to me like you could benefit from really thinking about that concept.
And I look forward to the new word or sentence that I've typed that you can pick out to show how objectively ignorant I am compared to your iron clad reason. But in the end, both of our viewpoints are valid, and if we're able to step aside from the tantrums of the ego long enough we can learn from the opposite.
So thank you for your part you play! It's appreciated.
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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 2, 2011 10:24:51 GMT -6
I apologize I didn't use the same terms as you and translated them into my own. I was referring to the first three levels, or men, or whatever. I also described them as "sense tools". But I suppose "perceptive tools" might be better. Meaning physical body, emotions, and intellect. The three things we use to interact with and perceive the physical world. The first three types of men in Gurdjieff's model experience their reality through one of three areas of focus; physical, emotional, and mental. This is not my model, rather it is the one that Gurdjieff proposes. These three types of men make use of all their senses or "perception tools", but relate to their experience through primarily one of those aspects. I am writing this as an explanation for everyone here who recognizes themselves as distinct from my imagination. I welcome discourse from those with whom a discussion would be valuable, and encourage others to provide their own examples and make up there own mind. The rest of the statement made was clearly a need for me to be critical of myself, as it is coming from some aspect of myself within my belief and not anything or one "real" beyond the filter of my mind. This inability of mine to prevent aspects of my imagination from posting in this forum may be troublesome for a few of you, and for that, I apologize. I will do my best not to argue or debate with aspects of my own imagination, but as belief is reality, it is in fact your fault (as I am an aspect of your imagination) that such a debate is even happening.
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Post by nyrlthtp on Mar 2, 2011 11:02:42 GMT -6
If the continuation of opposing viewpoints serves as a catalyst for each individual to consider The Work more carefully, then that would be a good thing, right? vague. 'The Work' could refer to exalted text, individual process, or personal interpretation of the exalted text. catalysts may provide repercussions without the understanding of those undergoing them. 'good things' are notoriously over-rated and simplistically so evaluated. it isn't just viewpoints, but arguments, and the reasoning inherent to them, that would be most valuably assimilated. only some of these are being understood and commented upon. the rest are overlooked, not completely understood, or disregarded for whatever reason. we may expect that a subset or portion of any pile or sequence of accumulating data will go uncomprehended. I think if the discussion remains respectful and doesn't lead down the road of slander, then it will remain fruitful. it would be nice if the slander and noise were removed from the postings, as is done in conventional moderation.
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 2, 2011 11:40:02 GMT -6
I would be happy to discuss this with you, pseudosherlock.
If an individual is not disconnected, then one can never say that the physical world means nothing. True? Connection means that every part, every facet, every aspect has value. What is the part we have to play? That is an empowering question! The fact that various subjective realities all over earth have some import requires our attention. Even if most of those realities are born of illusion.
For instance, I watched the movie Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps. It was fucking terrible. So much that it upset me a great deal. Luckily though, I didn't allow my strong dislike for the film to poison me nor my interaction with others. But here's the thing - Wall Street is illusion. It is a serious of fast-moving pictures on a screen. It isn't real. And yet... the movie matters to me. It matters to others... those who watch it, those who made it, and those who might profit from its success.
One cannot force enlightenment upon another. All we can do, after Working on ourselves for a time, is to show our perspective to others in hopes that it will make an impression. But why even do that? Who cares about this world? Again, I care (we care) because as wretched and wrong and illusory as this ordinary reality is, it matters. This world is what we have to work with. It can also be changed.
Creating change is what esotericism is all about. Changing the inner man into something superior. Inner change leads to outer change. I want to change the world. I have a conviction (the strongest belief possible) that the Great Old Ones will be brought back to this universe by our Cult of Cthulhu. Their return will usher in a new age.
I help people because I know it to be valuable. Seeing my fellow man succeed has substance. It is a reward in itself. Sure, helping others makes me feel good. But I don't teach because I want to feed my ego... I teach because it's the right thing to do. I willingly sacrifice my time and energy, suffering the slings, arrows, barbs, thorns, and sharp tongues in order to transform ordinary men into the Gods which we have the potential to be.
Thanks for your contribution to this discussion.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by ragnafa on Mar 2, 2011 11:47:07 GMT -6
Hello Master Satanis, I have a strange question in regards to the last post you just wrote. You said that Wallstreet is just an illusion, and that it was fast moving pictures on a screen. What if you were to take that analogy and use it as an example of our lives here in this reality. Reading some parts of the Cthulhu Cult Bible, there were mentions of there in no reality, we ourselves don't exist. I was just curious on your thoughts.
Awake... Izratan'Sharaz Wizard of the Terrible Darkness.
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Post by nyrlthtp on Mar 2, 2011 13:44:54 GMT -6
...I didn't allow my strong dislike for the film {'Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps'} to poison me nor my interaction with others. {'Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps'} is illusion. It is a {series} of fast-moving pictures on a screen. It isn't real. And yet... the movie matters to me. It matters to others... those who watch it, those who made it, and those who might profit from its success. the composition of the film as a media object is real. various projection and presentation tools through which it comes to you (tapes, disks, infrastructure of television, internet, distribution via sets, computers, etc.) are real. the experience that you had of its fast-moving pictures was also real. ...Creating change is what esotericism is all about. ... demonstrably false. it may be what you engage it for. literally it is just about elitism or remaining hidden or restricted to a small group for a particular purpose. you appear to be equating the term 'mysticism' with esotericism. creating a change or a specific condition is what magic is all about. developing one's internal composure or maturity is what mysticism is all about. esotericism is one of the modalities by which it operates or banners under which it flies.
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 2, 2011 14:11:07 GMT -6
I find such remarks, nyrlthtp, to be emphatically unfruitful. Your recent preoccupation with the delusional aspects of The Great Work (i.e. belief, reality, the 4th Way, etc.) is arbitrary and, in itself, nihilistic. What would your perception leave us with? A reduction of the sublime to base materialism?I direct you to the Wikipedia entry, especially the part where it defines esotericism as "pertaining to the more inward".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism
If you can quote source material which clearly states that esotericism is not about creating inner change (read the entire paragraph for context and you'll see that's what I was getting at), then please do so. Why focus on the inner or hidden aspects of something unless desirous of making alterations?
Additionally, while I can appreciate your eccentric (unique, to these boards) use of language. I'd wager that you're losing at least a third of your audience due to writing style alone. Without dumbing down the expression of your ideas, perhaps you might try catering to a slightly broader audience? I believe brother Jason Sorrell mentioned something to that effect days ago.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 2, 2011 15:05:40 GMT -6
Hello Master Satanis, I have a strange question in regards to the last post you just wrote. You said that Wallstreet is just an illusion, and that it was fast moving pictures on a screen. What if you were to take that analogy and use it as an example of our lives here in this reality. Reading some parts of the Cthulhu Cult Bible, there were mentions of there in no reality, we ourselves don't exist. I was just curious on your thoughts.
Awake...
Izratan'Sharaz Wizard of the Terrible Darkness Cult of Cthulhu You are correct, brother. It's the same thing but on a different scale. Watching a movie is really a double or actually triple illusion when mindful of each fabricated part. We are imaginary (our ordinary selves), in an imaginary world (ordinary life), watching a motion-picture (which is apparently unreal).
Observing the way things really are, three-fold, brings us to Self-Remembering.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by nyrlthtp on Mar 2, 2011 15:10:09 GMT -6
...Master Satanis... said that {'Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps'} is just an illusion, and that it was fast moving pictures on a screen. he (apparently) meant that the film was an illusion, yes. What if you were to take that analogy is it an analogy? if so, what are the analogous elements? it appears to be a commentary on the fact that films, and phenomena like them, which are broadcast and reproduced, are EMULATIONS or RECAPITULATIONS of real events and things. and use it as an example of our lives here in this reality. the means by which experience is perceived is comparable (analogous) to the means by which a film may be viewed/experienced. whereas the film is a series of fast-moving pictures on a screen, there is a real organism in real circumstances which is being interpreted through the mechanism of that organism. its experiences aren't just a projection, as by some phantasm creature beyond this physical realm. if you believe that this last statement is incorrect, point out some means of confirming that what i am calling a fantasy is not just your imagination. if you cannot explain a means to discern between imaginary things, then you are awash in delusion and may wish to reassess your knowledge-schema. Reading some parts of the Cthulhu Cult Bible, there were mentions of there in no reality, we ourselves don't exist. I was just curious on your thoughts. this is unclear. 'no reality' is fantasy by rational considerations. logically, if there is no reality, then nothing exists. absurd suppositions may easily yield absurd conclusions, both of which tend to produce confusion.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2011 15:42:20 GMT -6
Additionally, while I can appreciate your eccentric (unique, to these boards) use of language. I'd wager that you're losing at least a third of your audience due to writing style alone. Without dumbing down the expression of your ideas, perhaps you might try catering to a slightly broader audience? I believe brother Jason Sorrell mentioned something to that effect days ago.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
nyrlthtp, yes you lost my humble audience as your posts are long and difficult to read to someone whose English is not his mother tongue...
Now is the moment of Awakening.
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Post by nyrlthtp on Mar 2, 2011 17:24:25 GMT -6
Additionally, while I can appreciate your eccentric (unique, to these boards) use of language. I'd wager that you're losing at least a third of your audience due to writing style alone. Without dumbing down the expression of your ideas, perhaps you might try catering to a slightly broader audience? I believe brother Jason Sorrell mentioned something to that effect days ago. ...you lost my humble audience as your posts are long and difficult to read to someone whose English is not his mother tongue... thank you for your feedback. I am available either in private or within these threads for elaboration on any point. my brevity would not do the subject justice, as it is both complex and involved.
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Post by boksmutant on Mar 2, 2011 18:05:43 GMT -6
You can call me boksmutanis. You haven't been kicked out yet, so I'd say Venger As'Nas Satanis has shown an amazing amount of self control & allowance in having his guests voice their opinions here in his house.
You are the great Jason Sorrel/Ego Diabolus, ex Priest of the Cult of Cthulhu, Your posts are legendary here as well as your contributions to the Left hand Path.
But you must admit that Ipsissimus Satanis has shown over the last couple of days his extreme patience & even acceptance of your challenge & the debate with which we are having. That could be pointed out?
I look forward to hearing further on "Belief is reality" as it is for our learning & benefit.
herbert, you might be at a disadvantage with your intro into the forum. It will make answering your questions very hard for anyone. You must come at the subject from a different angle, try that.
Awake!
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Post by pseudosherlock on Mar 2, 2011 20:42:52 GMT -6
The first three types of men in Gurdjieff's model experience their reality through one of three areas of focus; physical, emotional, and mental. This is not my model, rather it is the one that Gurdjieff proposes. These three types of men make use of all their senses or "perception tools", but relate to their experience through primarily one of those aspects. Yeah, those. I meant those. I am writing this as an explanation for everyone here who recognizes themselves as distinct from my imagination. I welcome discourse from those with whom a discussion would be valuable, and encourage others to provide their own examples and make up there own mind. The rest of the statement made was clearly a need for me to be critical of myself, as it is coming from some aspect of myself within my belief and not anything or one "real" beyond the filter of my mind. This inability of mine to prevent aspects of my imagination from posting in this forum may be troublesome for a few of you, and for that, I apologize. I will do my best not to argue or debate with aspects of my own imagination, but as belief is reality, it is in fact your fault (as I am an aspect of your imagination) that such a debate is even happening. Absolutely agree. Without me you wouldn't have responded to me. Without you I wouldn't have had a reason to appear here. Without either of us as pretend seperate entities there would be no reason to have a discussion that appears to be two disconnected entities, but isn't. We are all definitely fully responsible, or if you want to use the term "at fault", for everything we experience. Without my particular beliefs structuring my reality you wouldn't even exist (within my perceived reality) without a desire on my part, at some point, to be here to discuss this with you. And I believe that every discussion is helpful and allows us to expand. Though I do agree with you when you say that you weren't addressing people who see themselves as part of you, and it's probably better for you and your sense of reality not to discuss these kind of topics with me.
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Post by pseudosherlock on Mar 2, 2011 20:51:11 GMT -6
I would be happy to discuss this with you, pseudosherlock.
If an individual is not disconnected, then one can never say that the physical world means nothing. True? Connection means that every part, every facet, every aspect has value. What is the part we have to play? That is an empowering question! The fact that various subjective realities all over earth have some import requires our attention. Even if most of those realities are born of illusion.
For instance, I watched the movie Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps. It was fucking terrible. So much that it upset me a great deal. Luckily though, I didn't allow my strong dislike for the film to poison me nor my interaction with others. But here's the thing - Wall Street is illusion. It is a serious of fast-moving pictures on a screen. It isn't real. And yet... the movie matters to me. It matters to others... those who watch it, those who made it, and those who might profit from its success.
One cannot force enlightenment upon another. All we can do, after Working on ourselves for a time, is to show our perspective to others in hopes that it will make an impression. But why even do that? Who cares about this world? Again, I care (we care) because as wretched and wrong and illusory as this ordinary reality is, it matters. This world is what we have to work with. It can also be changed.
Creating change is what esotericism is all about. Changing the inner man into something superior. Inner change leads to outer change. I want to change the world. I have a conviction (the strongest belief possible) that the Great Old Ones will be brought back to this universe by our Cult of Cthulhu. Their return will usher in a new age.
I help people because I know it to be valuable. Seeing my fellow man succeed has substance. It is a reward in itself. Sure, helping others makes me feel good. But I don't teach because I want to feed my ego... I teach because it's the right thing to do. I willingly sacrifice my time and energy, suffering the slings, arrows, barbs, thorns, and sharp tongues in order to transform ordinary men into the Gods which we have the potential to be.
Thanks for your contribution to this discussion.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
Yes, that is one of my issues with that perspective. And what I stated wasn't really a fixed viewpoint of my own, but simply one way I understand existence and the questions it's bringing up for me right now. And the viewpoint that is in contradiction to what Jason seemed to imply was a fact. I agree with you that this world matters. I personally believe that we have all chosen, as parts of the super-consciousness, to be born into this world. So we all have a purpose for being here, and thumbing our noses at it seems like a stupid one. I certainly like your idea of a purpose for being. I just don't really have a concrete one right now. In other words, I have no conviction toward anything, except that I believe the world to be an illusion and each of us part of a whole beyond it. I also don't believe that it is useless for us to help one another, because in the end that is helping us all. I actually didn't mean ego in the same way that you mentioned. I don't necessarily see the ego as a bad thing. I see the ego as the space-suit our higher selves use to interact and experience this physical world. So it's the ego that needs things like love, affection, and rewards. In other words, everything we "want" comes from the ego. So wanting to help people is sating the ego, just like buying a new car, or being involved in a relationship with another being. And thank you for the discussion, as well! Edit: I'm on a new laptop and still getting used to using one. Because of that I keep hitting hot keys to open new tabs and post my messages before I'm done. It's also why I'm a little flaky with the quoting.
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Post by pseudosherlock on Mar 2, 2011 21:45:03 GMT -6
connection at a distance (affectingness, influence) is perceivable. the 'sense' otherwise that you mention here is imagination without basis. it imagines a fantasy 'coextensive interrelationship' that is undemonstrated by any logical framework or set of evidence with repeatable and enduring consistency. [/right][/quote] Sigh...so I had a giant post typed out before I Backed my way out of it. It's probably my subconscious telling me not to talk so much. Gist was: I understand you're saying that I'm delusional and I can't prove anything I say. My response: I don't want to prove anything and don't believe you can prove something within an illusionary world using its own illusionary tools to divine that it is an illusion. And since you feel that any belief that isn't yours is a delusion, you wouldn't be able to seperate out a person as an enlightened, 7th level person as they wouldn't have the same set of beliefs as you. So you wouldn't "see" them as they would be "delusional" in your eyes. Finally, I agree with Venger As'Nas Satanis. Your style of typing makes communication difficult. There are ways to say complex things with words and images that the average person uses. You don't need to have a dictionary next to you to get at worthwhile ideas. Sorry, my original probably allowed for more politeness... But thank you for your responses, nyrlthtp. Edit: As a side note, I figured out how to disable the stupid touch pad on the laptop while a USB mouse is attached. So I should be doing less accidental things in the future.
...Because I know everyone was holding their breath for news of that!
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 3, 2011 0:08:23 GMT -6
It just seems that virtually every time I see you posting, nyrlthtp, you're on this delusion kick. Perhaps I'm seeing things? It's late. I'm tired. If you still want to get into a debate about it tomorrow, then just let me know.
Anyways, I understand that without a measurable, quantifiable gauge it's extremely difficult to determine what is real and what is delusional, who is Awakened and who is asleep. As far as anyone involved with the Cult of Cthulhu is concerned, I am the gauge, I am the system, I am the way. For those who don't like it? Sooorryyyyyy. [said like the Cthulhu South Park guy lying naked on a bear skin rug]
However, if someone has a better concept, then feel free to suggest it. In the meantime, I think it's about time we recognize the birth of a new meme, belief is reality.
Ia Ia belief is reality!
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 3, 2011 9:33:12 GMT -6
You are the great Jason Sorrel/Ego Diabolus, ex Priest of the Cult of Cthulhu, Your posts are legendary here as well as your contributions to the Left hand Path. Just Jason Sorrell now. Ego Diabolus was something I created, something attributable to my False Personality. It is redundant and unnecessary. The name I was given at birth is the name that is the truth of me. I am neither great, nor legendary, though I appreciate your jest. I haven't really made that much of an impact here, have I? Just consider me one of the guys here... "messenger of the outer angles" or whatever. I am here to learn from those who have something worth teaching, and to offer what little I may to those who might benefit from it.
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Post by nyrlthtp on Mar 3, 2011 13:13:37 GMT -6
connection at a distance (affectingness, influence) is perceivable. the 'sense' otherwise that you mention here is imagination without basis. it imagines a fantasy 'coextensive interrelationship' that is undemonstrated by any logical framework or set of evidence with repeatable and enduring consistency. ...I understand you're saying that I'm delusional and I can't prove anything I say. on the contrary, i am saying nothing of the kind. I would be limiting my ability to potentially learn something new from you or others in the face of claims with a basis where i cannot know what can and cannot be demonstrated in some capacity (and hope that you might explain how you came to learn it). I am explaining what i understand about what you are saying, and invite your contrast. should you be able to share with me your basis for the claim about this sense, then i might come to understand more about the universe or at least about you. senses as such, as the Ipsissimus Satanis has indicated, may relate strictly to illusions or apparencies (such as a series of moving pictures projected onto a screen). ...I don't want to prove anything and don't believe you can prove something within an illusionary world using its own illusionary tools to divine that it is an illusion. with this latter of course i agree fully. the way that you are using the term 'prove' here, it seems also true about everything in the universe even from a scientific perspective. once everything is illusion, nihilism is affirmed. it is this, particularly, against which i set the knowledge of conventional science. I was hoping to either inspire or construct myself an alternative to it serving as the foundation of the Worker knowledge, and something beyond the mere word of Gurdjieff, his students, or Ipsissimus Satanis, since this appears to contradict the very Work itself as expressed. And since you feel that any belief that isn't yours is a delusion, here you smite me with a lie (or at least a serious misinterpretation). I am not dealing with what are merely called beliefs to my knowledge, but what are being called 'senses' and contrasting what i am referring to as 'evidence' and 'knowledge' derived from this. I am identifying a kind of evidence which is founded on enduring structures (material) and not on report (contention by effectively religious authority - Masters Gurdjieff and Satanis), accepted as fact and believed by faith or similarly 'confirmed' through potentially illusory 'sensation' (compare the Wall Street movie). comparably, what i am characterizing as a potential 'delusion' is that which is not demonstrated as having a logical, rational, or tested basis - whether provided by a religious authority or presented to the senses of the individual. I am explaining the discernments possible within a range of knowledge sets, and evaluating the whole in terms of the manner by which this system sets itself out as being rational, testing, and well-founded. I am finding that, alike to my previous evaluation of Gurdjieff, those who descend from the man's work similarly depart from rationality and rely upon faith to ensure their cult memes' perpetuation. as such, the previous 'heretical' uprising seems not only to have been completely warranted, but the only real ledge of salience thusfar that i have witnessed (however distracted by drunken salers issuing calumny and epithet). you wouldn't be able to {separate} out a person as an enlightened, 7th level person as they wouldn't have the same set of beliefs as you. insufficient description of this status, and the absence of any methodology for arriving at the identification of such an individual, was provided for my usage. I evaluated this further as an array to my understanding, but do not insist upon this interpretation. if you could explain for me some method whereby any Man of any awareness were evaluated as being in that state, i would greatly appreciate that. the method to discern the first three may yield the method for latter four, but i don't yet see how. So you wouldn't "see" them as they would be "delusional" in your eyes. that is a dismissive inference on your part about my being dismissive of you or those like you who may support a view, or belief, for which i see no basis. instead, what i am doing in my posting in this thread is asking what methodology is included in the construction and evaluation of knowledge, and the status of those who are ascribed 'awareness levels' within the schema offered by Gurdjieff and his students. as i have adequately explained, the notion of 'Belief is reality!' completely undermines the Work's rational basis, and Ipsissimus Satanis' contentions do not resolve this matter in any way whatever, relegating the entirety of your cult's theology and awareness system to the usual character of a faith-based isthmus. Finally, I agree with Venger As'Nas Satanis. given your faith, this is entirely logical that you would. you should, because of the axioms you accept based on his assertion and those of Gurdjieff and precursively his assertion as to his status as an Ipsissimus. neither you, nor he, have explained a manner by which you would do elsewise - evaluating by some rational method for example. you are therefore left with agreeing with him or arguing him around to your view and then accepting that because he does. this is a convention of religious authorities. thank you for your reflection on my abstruse text. I am happy to elaborate or explain any point at any time. I am preserving my resources by issuing these posts in as dense and cogent a fashion as i can muster while providing the feedback apparently (though less and less so) desired. thank you also for your politeness. I appreciate the manner of the Cult of Cthulhu very much, despite the fact that, as usual, my style or content may not be understood. I will assume, based on the comments by all present, that i will largely be ignored and this is fitting given the standards of knowledge being used within the cult (as within most cults of my familiarity).
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Post by nyrlthtp on Mar 3, 2011 14:23:42 GMT -6
It just seems that virtually every time I see you posting, nyrlthtp, you're on this delusion kick. Perhaps I'm seeing things? ... I adequately explained the purpose for my focus on this aspect of the Work in this thread ("Belief is Reality?..."), and why i don't consider it either a 'preoccupation' or, in fact, a 'kick'. it is directly pertinent to this topic. as such, no, i don't think that you are 'seeing things' (i.e. merely imagining them). in fact, i would suggest that the means by which you could evaluate this is at least by a standard you could use for evaluation of knowledge within the cult (observation, empiricism, in this case of the posts and how restricted this focus on illusion/delusion is to this thread in particular). if you doubt this, i suggest to you that you examine my contribution which is at extreme variance from this tack within a thread by similar name ( "If Belief is Reality"). If you still want to get into a debate about it tomorrow, then just let me know. it was never a debate that i wanted, but merely some specificity on the basis of knowledge put forward by those self-characterizing as associated to 'the Work'. I tried to construct something appliable in contrast and have the wherewithall to make an entire edifice for the CoC such that something substantial might be put forward, but i don't see that this would result in something you would appreciate either socially (it would begin to undermine your authority and status) or epistemologically (it would demolish your meme of 'Belief is reality!' at base). Anyways, I understand that without a measurable, quantifiable gauge it's extremely difficult to determine what is real and what is delusional, who is Awakened and who is asleep. this is more stringent than for which i was asking. I merely requested a reflection of the methodology used to evaluate and identify the qualifiers, such as characteristics that might be observed by those with eyes to see, for example. I said nothing about measurable or quantifiable, though these would of course be ideal. measurable and quantifiable would apply to the physical only, about which we are only discussing in part. As far as anyone involved with the Cult of Cthulhu is concerned, I am the gauge, I am the system, I am the way. ... a person is not a system. a person might use a system, or a methodology, which is to what i was making reference. if you used no such method, i can't really understand it. if you cannot describe the method whereby you can observe what you observe, what you see, etc., then perhaps this enters a realm ineffable as so many religious evaluations tend to. ...if someone has a better concept, then feel free to suggest it. I have done so in this thread, revising the Gurdjieff ladder to the array of a spectrum as a preliminary. I could move on, using the pyramidal schema established by Maslow as i described, but i don't think this would serve your interests. ...it's about time we recognize the birth of a new meme, belief is reality. it may have been born prior to the Cult of Cthulhu.
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 3, 2011 15:11:46 GMT -6
I think there's a lot of misunderstanding in this thread, nyrlthtp. Don't take it personally. I try to acknowledge your posts when directed to me or the Cult of Cthulhu... which at times can be considered one and the same.
Should there be some form of transparency between inner development and willed manifestations. On that matter, I agree with those who propose such an idea. However, it's not so easy to judge another's progress. We must judge ourselves with as much objectivity as possible, but as the Teacher of this school it is my responsibility to determine who might Ascend.
Yes, I realize that I'm not the first one to utter the words is, reality, and belief. Nor put them in the order we're currently discussing. In fact, this may be one of the original magical ideas from the dawn of man's evolution. All I did was give it a little juice in the 21st century. I'm happy with whatever part I've played.
Here are two passages from Volume 4 of Psychological Commentaries on the Teaching of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky by Maurice Nicoll...
The whole conception of Esotericism, its whole meaning, is concerning this development of a New Man in oneself. This experiment has been going on as far back as known history. You must remember that known history goes back only a few thousand years and is incommensurable with unknown history. Yet in known history we meet with traces of Esotericism which is always speaking about one thing, the creation of a New Man. If we go back beyond known history, we find the existence of complete mythologies, rituals, ceremonies, which all contain the same idea.
And let me remind you again what is the whole idea. The whole idea of the Work and the whole idea of esoteric teaching as far back as known history goes, is about your being a self-developing organism and consciously working against the circumstances of your life so that nothing can drag you into negative emotions.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by pseudosherlock on Mar 3, 2011 23:29:26 GMT -6
insufficient description of this status, and the absence of any methodology for arriving at the identification of such an individual, was provided for my usage. I evaluated this further as an array to my understanding, but do not insist upon this interpretation. if you could explain for me some method whereby any Man of any awareness were evaluated as being in that state, i would greatly appreciate that. the method to discern the first three may yield the method for latter four, but i don't yet see how. I hate to just repeat myself. But again, you're offering to use the tools and measurements of the physical world to analyze something above and beyond it. As long as you seek to quantify something beyond physical measure, in my opinion, you're going to keep falling short of it and ending up with no other choice but to declare it "delusion" and descriptions of it based on "only faith". You're just not going to be able to measure, using your intellect and body, what created them. And as long as you fixate on those things, all you'll be able to do is measure the width and breadth of the physical universe. No more. And I'm afraid "using a method to identify the qualifies" is just another term for "measuring and quantifying" a belief. It's using limiting reason and logic to pick apart what birthed the intellect. that is a dismissive inference on your part about my being dismissive of you or those like you who may support a view, or belief, for which i see no basis. instead, what i am doing in my posting in this thread is asking what methodology is included in the construction and evaluation of knowledge, and the status of those who are ascribed 'awareness levels' within the schema offered by Gurdjieff and his students. as i have adequately explained, the notion of 'Belief is reality!' completely undermines the Work's rational basis, and Ipsissimus Satanis' contentions do not resolve this matter in any way whatever, relegating the entirety of your cult's theology and awareness system to the usual character of a faith-based isthmus. It's difficult to understand what your point is sometimes, but I think there's some confusion about my perspective. Which is understandable. I haven't the foggiest clue who Gurdjieff is, except (I think) from what Jason wrote. And I know Satanis from his Bible and a smattering here and there of what he's said. I know even less about the Fourth Way or Satanism. I'm really not coming from any of those belief systems. I merely have respect for what Venger As'Nas Satanis is doing from what little I've seen. And I'm a huge fan of Lovecraft. Those are the only reasons I'm posting here. thank you for your reflection on my abstruse text. I am happy to elaborate or explain any point at any time. I am preserving my resources by issuing these posts in as dense and cogent a fashion as i can muster while providing the feedback apparently (though less and less so) desired. thank you also for your politeness. I appreciate the manner of the Cult of Cthulhu very much, despite the fact that, as usual, my style or content may not be understood. I will assume, based on the comments by all present, that i will largely be ignored and this is fitting given the standards of knowledge being used within the cult (as within most cults of my familiarity). You're welcome, although again I think you just said I was part of the cult. But that's okay. I'm going to try to say this in the most polite and helpful way possible, nyrlthtp: I think that you're speaking in a way that is designed to get people to see that you're knowledgeable and that you have something worthwhile to say. But because it's off-putting, you seem to have turned that passion back around on yourself and are declaring that no one wants to talk to you anymore. Nothing anyone ever says is meant to be personal to anyone else. No one really goes out of their way to hurt other people. People only say things that they want to hear themselves say, expecting to hear what they want to hear. Honestly, if you try your best to communicate with other people in a way that makes them feel you care, you'll end up getting along with everyone, everywhere. And you already are knowledgeable and have something worthwhile to say, and nothing to prove.
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Post by nyrlthtp on Mar 4, 2011 12:35:25 GMT -6
hi pseudosherlock, ...you're offering to use the tools and measurements of the physical world to analyze something above and beyond it. As long as you seek to quantify something beyond physical measure, in my opinion, you're going to keep falling short of it and ending up with no other choice but to declare it "delusion" and descriptions of it based on "only faith". I am offering to do little more than provide an example of a system of evidence and knowledge construction for the benefit of all involved with the Work, while requesting that these same provide something comparable they are using to prop up their assertions. if they cannot, then their assertions are faith-based, and contrary otherwise to the general character of the Work as i have (possibly erroneously) come to understand it. You're just not going to be able to measure, using your intellect and body, what created them. I have no idea why you presume to know what created them, that they were created, or to attempt to measure this (possibly fictitious) thing. I am instead talking about the plain evaluation resulting in the "Man 1" through "Man 7" ladder-scheme as described. if the methodology is not empirical, fine. if it is empirical, then you or someone with authority should be able to explain what is observed (the basis of empiricism) and how these observations yield the evaluation provided. if this description cannot be provided (due to the ineffability of something integral to it) then it is faith-based rather than rational and testable. the focus on delusion is only valuable insofar as one understands this as a pitfall away from which evidence and knowledge may move us, rather than to accept testimony, claimsmaking, and report from religious authorities for this instead. And as long as you fixate on those things, all you'll be able to do is measure the width and breadth of the physical universe. No more. since i have no evidence that anything other than the physical universe (which facilitates all experiences, all internals, all subjective conditions) exists, this is quite fine for my purposes. should you be able to explain what else there is and how you come to know about it, i'd love to hear that. ..."using a method to identify the {qualifiers}" is just another term for "measuring and quantifying" a belief. It's using limiting reason and logic to pick apart what birthed the intellect. it is plainly examining the processes described as part of the aspiration and result of the Work. if it cannot be examined, cannot be analyzed by any methodology whatever, and is unobservable to human beings, or indescribable for some odd reason, then we should seriously reconsider it as a reliable method or system of waking up. that a stratification for results is identified indicates to me that there must be some means of mapping people to it, however it is conceived. it is to this means that i am pointing attention, rather than diverting it to whatever may or may not fit with anyone's beliefs. abandoning the focus on particular ideas (since my aim isn't to remain inside any specific paradigm), might you or anyone else be able to describe the process, developmental schema, disciplines, or human phenomenon of waking up, how we can become aware of who is doing it and how, and when we may fruitfully evaluate and arrive at an accurate assessment of the condition of those who are doing it? ...I haven't the foggiest clue who Gurdjieff is ...I know even less about the Fourth Way or Satanism. I'm really not coming from any of those belief systems. I don't think, then, that you will be capable of replying helpfully to my queries. in fact, i think that if you study these paradigmatic approaches you will find that they are NOT, themselves, belief systems, and that this is the reason we may question, all the way down to their base level, what constitutes them and how they may be applied as waking systems. the intention is (eventually) to transcend belief in an effort to get at a clearer apprehension of the real. this is part of the problem of equating belief to reality.
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