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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 26, 2008 12:58:48 GMT -6
just curious, how many of you know about the Fourth Way? have read about it on your own before or after joining the Cult of Cthulhu forum?
in these last few nights, i've been thinking about the Cult's direction, focus, and goals. it seems to me that the 4th way is an increasingly fruitful avenue... becoming one of the central pillars holding our organization aloft.
if the CoC is to become, or maintain itself as, a real 4th way school, then sufficient attention must be paid. we must treat the Cult as if it were a 4th way school. a re-organizing of our slimy green order... not a new direction, but a sharpening of our course. precision. determination. struggling against ourselves.
continue to use our forum; it's an important communication tool. please try and post something significant, interesting, or germane to the ongoing discussions every single week. you will surely get out of the CoC what you put in. that is my promise.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by kingovhell on Oct 26, 2008 15:45:30 GMT -6
i acquired the fourth way within a year or so?, but have not been brave enough to read through it yet (not that i claim to "understand" everything that is "said" in it)..... and also i am lazy.
but sometimes i just feel like i'm losing my sanity when i try to internalize something like that.....
though i would like to "take to practice" everything that is said in it so far, i am sort of afraid to abandon something "naive" in me. in lack of a better expression.
blah blah blah...
excuse me for not being able to make myself understood as i would want to... for i am finnish and english is not my native tongue...
<p.s. hello again to you all! (i joined this collective sometime ago, but have not visited/contributed in a while [and sorry for that too])>
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 26, 2008 18:04:48 GMT -6
i knew nothing about it until joining the Cult, and it has been the single most inspiring and rewarding aspect of my membership thus far, aside from just talking with everyone here, especially you, HP.
im so down for whatever new direction you feel we can go in with the 4th way. right, right... not a "new" direction, a focusing of direction.
what other LHP uses it besides us and the ToS? and who besides us utilizes it so heavily and with better results?
i think this is what we need to do. i am in complete agreement with you. meditate on it further and let us know, HP!
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 26, 2008 20:11:16 GMT -6
no, i understand what you mean, brother. it is frightening to think that we might be completely different people at the end of our metamorphosis.
we're just glad that you're back.
VS
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 26, 2008 20:14:18 GMT -6
indeed. that is why it is so wonderfully hideous! there are no others that i know of... we are pioneers within a void that man was not meant to discover!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by sin on Oct 27, 2008 8:08:50 GMT -6
I had not heard about it, until reading about it through the cult. I did my own research, read Ouspensky's take on it and to be honest, it's not a new ideology.
I guess, because human psychology has always been an interest of mine, since childhood - I've been exposed to a lot in academia, as well as my own experience.
We tend to recycle ideas, I believe this is why LaVey made 'Forgetting Past Orthodoxies' a Sin. Slap a new label on it, it makes for disposable society. We lack originality, but it's 'new' to someone - somewhere.
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 27, 2008 12:50:53 GMT -6
that's right, the 4th way teaching has it's roots in many ancient cultures. it's strength lies in the fact that it was not merely invented, but handed down from higher mind... from the Ancient Ones themselves.
VS
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Post by sin on Oct 28, 2008 8:24:37 GMT -6
that's right, the 4th way teaching has it's roots in many ancient cultures. it's strength lies in the fact that it was not merely invented, but handed down from higher mind... from the Ancient Ones themselves.
VS I do think it's interesting, how you tie it into the mythos. While The Fourth Way has a lot of RHP thought, it can be transformed into LHP thought, in the right hands.
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 28, 2008 16:01:22 GMT -6
i find the 4th way extremely neutral and unbiased. not good nor evil; however, the 4th way seems appropriate for LHP practitioners. it's all about work on one's self. i will say more... right now, i've got to go.
by the way, now's the time to put money in the stock market if anyone has extra money to invest.
VS
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Post by sin on Oct 29, 2008 12:00:15 GMT -6
i find the 4th way extremely neutral and unbiased. not good nor evil; however, the 4th way seems appropriate for LHP practitioners. it's all about work on one's self. i will say more... right now, i've got to go.
by the way, now's the time to put money in the stock market if anyone has extra money to invest.
VSGood or evil are highly subjective anyway, what does that have to do with The Fourth Way? I could easily say the Fourth Way is both good and evil, it depends on the person putting it to work. People can obsess, and become self-consumed, and this can be defeating behavior, in this case it could be evil. If the person expands upon their development, is self-aware - it could be good. It just depends. Unbiased? Hardly, it's heavily influenced by culture and social structures. While I find it 'useful' to a certain degree, I think you'd have to be a complete basket-case, unable to self-relate to follow it to the letter. I do the whole junk-drawer thing. I pluck bits and parts I find useful, and store them for later. Like the kitchen junk drawer, everything is there - exactly when you need it.
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 29, 2008 12:24:51 GMT -6
thanks for reminding me that i barely touched on that subject. been really busy lately.
i can see that we're at another point where things can get juicy. so often, discussions "play it safe"; never getting too far into uncharted territory. now we have an opportunity to really explore these concepts.
before i get deeper into the 4th way, anyone want to weigh-in on what Cora'Sahn and i are talking about? every forum member has approximately 24 hours before my next reply.
VS
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Madguten
Moderator
CoC forum moderator
Woe, to he who hears the howling
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Post by Madguten on Oct 30, 2008 9:40:24 GMT -6
I just started writing a response but now i have to get out the door, i will write my response and post it around nine houirs before your midnight. I always have best time after danish midnight thats around nine hours before yours as far as i remember.
Busy, busy, busy
But very enthusiastic ;D
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Post by fahy92 on Oct 30, 2008 11:02:08 GMT -6
I never heard of the Fourth Way until I started posting here. I've been reading it when I get a chance to, which is not that often, school work, social life, blagh. but I'd have to agree with Cora'Sahn. It can be good or evil, but it's all about perspective I add more late, I have to get to class in 2 minutes
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 30, 2008 15:56:41 GMT -6
i see what you mean. i suppose, the most ideal 4th way student would already be perfectly balanced, knowledgeable, and with extraordinary being... almost a 4th way master.
as long as there is a certain level of honesty in an individual to go along with their ambition, i think any 4th way student has as much chance as the next pupil to absorb what is there and start living The Work. almost everything has a bias. and every concept's bias is usually rooted in what is good and evil, right and wrong, fruitful and barren. the more philosophical or religious a paradigm is, the more it usually addresses, one way or the other, how it interprets ideas such as good and evil. i would say that a system has the potential to be either good, evil, or neutral; regardless of the practitioner. although, i think one could argue that either way. and, of course, everything depends on one's definition of good and evil. is the Left Hand Path evil? is needless suffering evil? what about the needless suffering of our enemies?
the Fourth Way has only one aim: to reach higher states of consciousness which allows one to Awaken from the sleep of life. is this goal inherently good, evil, right, wrong, fruitful, or barren? i would say there is no moral or ethical quandary, only that the 4th way is fruitful if used properly. again, i would say that The Work is helpful for those who want to become more conscious and those who ignore, abuse, or misinterpret it will not be helped. but it is because this teaching actively improves the individual that i find it extremely LHP compatible. after the individual achieves higher states of consciousness, he or she can do anything. successful 4th way practitioners are above the forces of nature and able to forge their own destiny, in effect, becoming like the Gods. do you believe this because of the inherent cultural and social bias of the people practicing the 4th way? or from certain 4th way teachers? aside from Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, and to some degree Maurice Nicoll, each teacher does interpret The Work in their own manner. there may be other bias involved, but i can't see it at the moment.is there a particular concept that you find disagreeable or unworkable? i know aspects relating to the moon, octaves, and the enneagram might seem strange, but the core teaching is an invaluable foundation for such worthy strivings as self-improvement, enlightenment, and objective consciousness.
i'm of the opinion that The Work can change the Cult of Cthulhu from a chaotic Satanism group using Lovecraftian symbolism into a movement of vast evolutionary potential. some might say that these two models are interchangeable... but are they? that's a question everyone will have to answer for themselves. however, there isn't more than a small handful of 4th way ideas that Cultists shouldn't adhere to. are we not asleep? is being Awake preferable? how do we accomplish this feat without 4th way ideas?
as Cora'Sahn and B'Lahk'Neeth mentioned, not everything can be used right away. an individual can absorb only so much before the sponge is full. i can tell you from my personal experience, that there were some 4th way concepts which i could not properly digest until years after initially coming across them. after more than a decade of study, i still have a ways to go. what else takes a lifetime of struggle? what other teaching demands a similar commitment?
ok, that's enough from me. i value everyone's opinion of the Fourth Way and our collective influence on the Cult itself. incidentally, i've created a new ning social network dealing exclusively with The Work. sign up if interested. here's the link: 4th-way.ning.com/
Ia Ia,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Madguten
Moderator
CoC forum moderator
Woe, to he who hears the howling
Posts: 2,785
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Post by Madguten on Oct 30, 2008 17:06:36 GMT -6
I had never heard about the 4th way, Gurdjieff or Ouspenski before i heard about it here on the forum. I have gotten a book about the life of Gurdjieff written by J.G. Bennet and i have gotten an old danish version of Ouspenski's TERTIUM ORGANUM. I havent read the whole Ouspenski book because when it comes down to it, as much as i enjoy the concept of philosophy books, i dont really enjoy reading them. I read the Bennet book, it was more exiting because it was more about the life of Gurdjieff and not "just" the philosophy. Not that one can really use the term JUST philosophy. These thoughts and calculations that we call philosophies are perhaps among the wisest (or most foolish) things that the human mind as we know it can preform. The reason i dont really enjoy reading most philosophy books is that i feel that i can most often recognize the thoughts and ideas from my own mind. Reading other peoples presentations of these thoughts always makes me wonder if i am not just making a simple thing more difficult by reading about it so much. But this is one of my literary weaknesses i guess, its not a big deal and i still read, i think that i am just bombarded by philosophies from within, this is sorta normal for a men at my age i think. Men in the mid twenties are always fundamentalist idealists (or what, lol) To get back on subject... In my opinion there is MUCH to be gained from the forth way. Of course, as others have also implied here; No tool is better than the person who is using it. It really IS that simple (in my head at least) the forth way is a tool. If you use it right, you can produce great things. Misuse it and it is destructive, like when a hammer becomes a weapon, fumble it around like and idiot and you'll end up hitting your own fingers. THUS is it with philosophy ( i speculate) Anyway, i think it is cool that the cult is focusing some more on the fourth way. As long as we dont let it cage us in, but i really dont see that happening. IA! IA! KTULU FTAGN!
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Post by sin on Oct 31, 2008 8:33:36 GMT -6
I think some of it is 'useful' and some 'useless' because of who and what I am, presently. Man, I've had my hands into everything and have been an occultists (or occultnik) since childhood. I've dabbled in this and that, like a mad scientist, mixing hard science with metaphysics and deciding what is 'real' to me. This balanced with my own psychology, and I'm pretty firm in my level of self-awareness. Am I completely awake? No, and I still apply self-delusions at times, because I think as human beings we need some form of delusion or else life is utterly boring and intolerable.
I can self delude, in believing one day I'll have everything I want and desire, because I'm working, always working towards that. The 'awakening reality' may be, that I run out of time and I'm too damn old to enjoy any of it.
Does that make sense? Self delusion, is a form of self awareness in my opinion. I'm acknowledging that I need that, or else I won't even get out of bed.
I think, the biggest foreseeable annoyance for me will be, a bunch of COC automotons, quoting Fourth Way, and everything will some how be mapped back to Fourth Way like a big Borg cube.
I'm sure you can relate, it's typical behavior with noobs of Modern Satanism, they are quoting LaVey's words like he's a god to them, and the 'Satanic Bible' becomes 'scripture'. [hurl]
In my minds eye, if the COC is to operate like an actual 'cult' it's going to bring 'cult mentality' and I don't see it so much with the mythos, but more with Fourth Way philosophy.
This is just an observation on my part.
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 31, 2008 11:06:18 GMT -6
that is a danger. there's always going to be a segment that is not going to "get it". but with eternal vigilance, i think we can keep the majority of Cultists on the dogma-free "sly path". the word cult brings many associations, not all of them good; however, that's exactly why Satanism is such a powerful movement. the word Satan also brings out tons of impressions, some dangerous.
i will never forsake the Mythos, black magic, and what we have discovered about subjective reality in favor of making the CoC a 4th way only school. in fact, i think there are inherent ties between the Cthulhu Mythos and The Work already.
i totally agree and see where you're coming from. i don't want to become a 4th way machine either, and i understand that might be a danger. the core of The Work is about opening up hidden potential and expanding consciousness. taken too rigidly and too dogmatically, we could become like those 4th way bozos who want to disparage us for being LHP, Satanic, or down with the Mythos. and that would be a crime. no, i won't let that happen to us.
i believe the CoC can become a fully-fledged Fourth Way school while retaining it's original vision. other opinions?
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by amble on Nov 6, 2008 22:12:01 GMT -6
The very first time i came to this forum (last year sometime) i had no idea about the fourth way, i had heard of gurdjieff, but only through people who used his name as a short hand way of saying "i know the name of a man you've not heard of. Therefore, me smart, you dumb"
Then, as i have been known to do, i got caught up in something else completely and left my studies hanging as it were. Then, listening to talks by Robert Anton Wilson, i heard the phrase the fourth way. He spoke about the basic idea that there are hundreds of 'I's and we are not the same I from minute to minute. Which stuck with me. I tried looking for any books by or about Ouspensky and Gurdjieff (only because those were the only two i had heard about) and after finding absolutely nothing in the libraries or bookshops near me i just sort of gave up. The sections and snippets i had found dotted around the internet weren't really enough and my interest was taken by another topic, Satanism.
I remembered this place, and i came back, read through everything that i could find around the site, the blogs, the forums. And i have to say that I agree with you VS. For me at least, the fourth way material/ideas that i have read either here, or linked from here, has really caught me. It's something that i feel like i can really sink my teeth into. And as a part of the COC it fits. I don't know why but it does. There are going to be people who won't appreciate the variety of sources from which the cult has drawn, and still draws. But...fuck them. I can't get a handle on what it is, but something about the CoC as a whole really inspires me and makes me want to be a part of the journey. I can feel that this is part of something great. This IS something great. And i want in. And i think the fourth way "segment" of the whole is a part of that. The fourth way work involved, for me at least, is a way to feel as though I, and all the rest of us, are part of something that we undertake seperately, that will make all of us together an unstoppable force.
That's what i think anyway.
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Post by m2alik on May 2, 2009 13:06:47 GMT -6
My reply is that it is reconcilable with COC. it deals with that man is a machine. He is asleep to the possibility of Awakening. As to how this pertain to the LHP is to be a inner transformation,like Alchemy. Most of us here don't like the idea we a asleep.
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Post by Draelloathe on May 2, 2009 15:15:29 GMT -6
I've recieved some training on it in the seminary, but it wasn't referred to as the 4th way. I'm still wading through the Bible, and A:O. So, probrably next month or so I'll order some books on it.
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Post by sin on May 5, 2009 12:35:16 GMT -6
Any thoughts on a practical application curriculum? I think it's one thing to read the book, and another to put it into practice. The study course could be tied into the CoC ideology rather nicely I think.
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Post by m2alik on May 5, 2009 15:53:02 GMT -6
As to how I practice Fourth Way Cthuhlu Magic is during the daytime Self Remembering and night time some ritual work. I just today recieved The Infernal Texts of Nox and The Koth books. That is how I practice Foutrh way cthuhlu magic. As to reding Lovecraft books of course. Their is some movies through Arkam Bazaar which sells dvd s to get the feel of The Magic of The Entities or a "Feeling" is best described.
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Post by sin on May 6, 2009 7:35:09 GMT -6
Cross Post from my SODL Yahoo list (Society of Dark Lily)
"Flag this message [SoDL] Re: What Are Stances According to Dark Lily? Wednesday, May 6, 2009 9:24 AM From: "Lloyd Miller" <lloyd_miller@comcast.net> Add sender to Contacts To: SoDL@yahoogroups.com
--- In SoDL@yahoogroups. com, "Paul" <initsodl@...> wrote: > All the things you state I believe are aspects of the subconscious not wanting to break out of it's lethargy. >>>>>>
Response: Now this is an interesting statement. It reminds me of All and Everything: Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson by Gurdjieff. In the early chapters he discusses the "arousal of thought (mentation)" which seems to be addressed to the subconscious which he depicts, it seems to me, as slumbering, lethargic, lazy.
All and Everthing is NOT a straight forward explicit discussion, but a series of parables, allegories, metaphors, etc. (dream language?) written in a very difficult style that requires incredible efforts of concentration to follow in even a cursory/literal way (to say nothing of grasping the hidden allegorical meaning).
For instance, some sentences are very very long/complicated and, at first, seem unintelligible, but on close examination are grammatically correct and understandable. Also, Gurdjieff invents words without defining them explicitly. One must form theories of what they mean by context and sound/etymology linkages and more.
The extreme level of "concentration" engendered by reading All and Everything has a strange effect which I felt, aroused to an extent, my subconscious.
Perhaps, the "subconscious" instead of staying actively engaged has a tendency to throw up a pre-packaged "stance" to the "ego/waking consciousness" that becomes habitual. If effect it says, "Ok, that response pattern should be good enough to get you by in that situation out there in external reality. "
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Post by monitor613 on May 11, 2009 2:49:57 GMT -6
wow. everyone seems to be on the ball here. so when do we start the orgies already?? i'm getting antsy here.
"In my minds eye, if the COC is to operate like an actual 'cult' it's going to bring 'cult mentality' and I don't see it so much with the mythos, but more with Fourth Way philosophy."
ever since i invented my cult it's been infused with a level irreverence b/c that's just who i am . probably the most important you could know about me is "sometimes i take humor seriously and seriousness humorously" . i'm dead serious that my cult can do what it says it can. but that's no reason to start acting like Christians! , devoid of perspective. so walking that line between humor and seriousness is crucial if you're going to keep it from falling into the traps those brain-dead (sic) religions have. ¶ i think it's hideously ironic that the three major things the Church of the SubGenius got wrong is "This isn't Art, This isn't Funny and Religion isn't a Fan-Club" what is more pure in this world than Art & Laughter? we all know if something is funny then it's probably true, Art is the Mind expressing itself in the most direct fundamental way possible. And if religion was purposely viewed as something like a fan club then that would short-circuit the mind-numbing seriousness and make it more fun, which is what religion is SUPPOSED TO BE!! like a game but with better rewards. ¶ i have to admit i know nothing about the Fourth Way except it obviously places a importance with the number 4 and i've had a significant resonance with that number a looooong time. e.g. the goal is to "go D" D=4 / 13=4 / 13=Death / Death = becoming goD
so i repeat: when do we start the orgies already??
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Post by I AM the Way on May 11, 2009 10:27:10 GMT -6
ASAP. however, the catch is that you have to organize it. the things we want in life can be sought after right now. that's the key to this whole thing, including the Fourth Way.
actually, the 4th way doesn't have much to do with the number four. in fact, it's just a name that stuck. what the Work or Teaching or System (those might be better words) is all about is becoming conscious... reaching higher levels of consciousness which transcends the whole illusion making up this world.
the first book of our Cult's bible, Cthulhu Cult, gets into the Work a little bit. Liber A:O discusses it a lot, as well as, those orgies you're interested in. sexuality is such an important part of the human experience and how it's used in today's puritanical culture is just another wall of our prison. sex magic is one of the many ways we're going to break out.
i'm ready for suggestions on how one would organize a CoC orgy in a certain area. let's discuss!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
p.s. regarding the Church of the Sub-Genius, i'm going to start another thread because that's another big topic of interest.[/color]
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Post by sin on May 11, 2009 11:32:23 GMT -6
It would be nice to know what cultists reside in which areas ;-P
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Post by I AM the Way on May 11, 2009 11:47:51 GMT -6
yes, but the trick will be in getting non-Cultist women to cooperate.
VS
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Post by sin on May 11, 2009 13:27:52 GMT -6
yes, but the trick will be in getting non-Cultist women to cooperate.
VS Do you mean to partake in said orgy? That's the easy part, it's getting the cultists organized to have the orgy that is the challenge in my experience :-)
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Post by I AM the Way on May 11, 2009 16:51:50 GMT -6
easy part? haha, ok... i'll bite. do tell.
VS
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on May 11, 2009 18:48:00 GMT -6
just start going to sex addicts anonymous, its like recruitment.... ;D
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