|
Post by shawnhartnell on Mar 13, 2015 10:15:54 GMT -6
What use <--(key word there) is it to have titles in an occult order?
Personally, there's a problem with identification and honestly it makes us look like we have our head farther up out ass than we do.
And there's the issue of merit. If someone, for instance, we're to become a high priest, how could someone merit that beyond what they already do? What does the title add to someone who has the merit all on their own?
|
|
|
Post by shawnhartnell on Mar 16, 2015 11:19:52 GMT -6
To an audience of crickets, I declare myself:
GRAND HIGH TOTAL SHITHEAD of The Cult of Cthulhu, taking the title both to be seriously funny and humorously serious, cause folks, let's face it we're missing a High Priest.
The title is effective until which time we do have a High Priest.
Yes, if anyone wants to snivel a bit kiss my ass ypou may call me by my appropriate title.
That is all! You may go back to your chirping.
|
|
|
Post by wren on Mar 16, 2015 20:18:17 GMT -6
I am pleased to bow to your humorous wisdom. You're right. What happened to our High Priest? Here's hoping everythings fine and he returns. But until then, I suppose we remain. Hmmm...shall we all bestow blasphemous titles upon ourselves? As for their use, I suppose it depends on what use one intends them for. As for the CoC I believe they were for dedication to the Cult and showing that one has progressed in following their Will. Maybe I'm wrong though.
|
|
|
Post by shawnhartnell on Mar 16, 2015 20:32:04 GMT -6
Yes, if ye want a blasphemous title, then step up and tell it to me, and I shall tattoo it upon ye avatar, and make it official as well! What shall ye blasphemous title be? Side Note: All of the old (now defunct) degrees (as I remember) were role based, and given/earned depending on what a cultist wanted to do/was already doing. So, sometimes they were a goal, and sometimes recognition -- it depended on a case by case basis what was most useful for the person who degree was given to. (Don't quote me on that, just my perception.) Note: The Great Green One came into this world to do two things: chew bubblegum and kick ass. Well, he's all out of bubblegum for the time being.
|
|
|
Post by wren on Mar 17, 2015 7:22:06 GMT -6
Hmmm....I rather like something like The Two-Faced Prophet. Partially because I can be whatever anyone wants and partially because I'm full of shit. I'm also open to suggestions on titles. So. On to the ass kicking then.
|
|
|
Post by shawnhartnell on Mar 17, 2015 17:15:04 GMT -6
I invoke the name of our watery and slimy Lord, VS himself, wiggle my toes in the formation of "live long and prosper", and do the hokey pokey just a bit -- you know just the good parts, and...
The Old Ones have heard your request. You are now the official Two-Faced Prophet of The Cult of Cthulhu.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 15:59:41 GMT -6
Well, shawnhartnell, I took my time to reply, and although it is humor and that remind us our limitations, I disagree. More or less, what you write about you and the tittle you're giving you is having an influence on you.
For instance, can you imagine beginning a ritual with : Me, GRAND HIGH TOTAL SHITHEAD, ...
Ok it's cool, but I doubt that will help to anything. Instead, Me, Cultist... or Me, Brother of the Void... will go a longer way.
Now is the moment of Awakening !
|
|
|
Post by shawnhartnell on Mar 24, 2015 17:35:38 GMT -6
My title is sort of a personal in-joke and humbling dis-identification tool. I'm sure people get the joke: even though I'm stepping up and taking responsibility here, it's what I do that matters -- not a rank or title. My title title doesn't mean shit in of itself. And if there's any recognition or respeect to be had, I want it based on my merit -- not automatic respect that goes with an aire of authoritia. I can imagine starting a ritual with 'Me, GRAND HIGH TOTAL SHITHEAD'. Chaos Magick don't judge. It's all about what works for an individual. However, I have to point out that you're much more active with ritual magic than me. So, it's understandable that it would be more significant to you and that you're more likely consider the implications of using a title in a ritual than me, brother. And I wasn't even thinking about that. Just the 'authority' and 'dress up' aspect of it. (OK, so, a little bit related to ritual magic. )
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 1:24:20 GMT -6
I understand very well ; It's not only about rituals, I just worry a bit about an hidden influence on you (on your "subconscious").
But I admit it's a genuine dis-identification tool.
Please give me the tittle : Priest of R'lyeh
|
|
|
Post by shawnhartnell on Mar 25, 2015 2:32:32 GMT -6
I've never been able to say that I've ever known the complete contents of my subconscious, so it's possible.
On the other hand, I'm well known to have a "problem with authority", especially it's use for abuse.
I'm also in the process of tearing myself down to bare metal again, so who knows?
|
|
|
Post by shawnhartnell on Mar 25, 2015 2:34:39 GMT -6
@yrreiht, re: title It is done.
|
|
|
Post by Beast Xeno on May 5, 2016 3:00:18 GMT -6
What use <--(key word there) is it to have titles in an occult order? Personally, there's a problem with identification and honestly it makes us look like we have our head farther up out ass than we do. And there's the issue of merit. If someone, for instance, were* to become a high priest, how could someone merit that beyond what they already do? What does the title add to someone who has the merit all on their own? I personally never saw any substantial reasoning for titles within The Work. I'm not certain if you chose the word identification with purpose of truly meaning identification, but you are absolutely correct in that assessment. Observe Thyself! -The Heretical One
|
|
|
Post by shawnhartnell on Jul 3, 2016 18:11:18 GMT -6
What use <--(key word there) is it to have titles in an occult order? Personally, there's a problem with identification and honestly it makes us look like we have our head farther up out ass than we do. And there's the issue of merit. If someone, for instance, were* to become a high priest, how could someone merit that beyond what they already do? What does the title add to someone who has the merit all on their own? I personally never saw any substantial reasoning for titles within The Work. I'm not certain if you chose the word identification with purpose of truly meaning identification, but you are absolutely correct in that assessment.  Observe Thyself! -The Heretical One Hey beastxeno. I did. I assume that if I use certain words around here they're taken in their italicised meaning, if they have one.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2016 1:56:45 GMT -6
What use <--(key word there) is it to have titles in an occult order? Personally, there's a problem with identification and honestly it makes us look like we have our head farther up out ass than we do. And there's the issue of merit. If someone, for instance, were* to become a high priest, how could someone merit that beyond what they already do? What does the title add to someone who has the merit all on their own? I personally never saw any substantial reasoning for titles within The Work. I'm not certain if you chose the word identification with purpose of truly meaning identification, but you are absolutely correct in that assessment. Observe Thyself! -The Heretical One Titles have nothing to do with the Work, but are useful within an organization. I don't care of being called Master, Priest or shithead, or not to be called at all, we are supposed to be above that. Aren't we ? It's not about merit, and tittles are given to those supposed to be able to resist identification.
So, when a member is recognized as knowing enough, why to give him a tittle ? Because many beginners or less evolved are participating in this forum and they have to know who is in charge and who is able to give them correct answers. When a Priest of R'lyeh answers, the beginner can be reasonably sure that he can trust him.
Also, no organization, never in human history, did anything valuable without a hierarchy, like it or not.
Awake !
|
|
|
Post by Beast Xeno on Jul 4, 2016 8:28:16 GMT -6
Hey beastxeno. I did. I assume that if I use certain words around here they're taken in their italicised meaning, if they have one. Greetings Shawn, You're my favorite "face" to see around here... To remember where you began with regard to the CoC, and see where you ended up in relation gives me great pleasure. Stay Frosty my man! ps.. Feel free to change my title to "The Heretical One" for shits and giggles.
|
|
|
Post by Beast Xeno on Jul 4, 2016 8:51:23 GMT -6
I personally never saw any substantial reasoning for titles within The Work. I'm not certain if you chose the word identification with purpose of truly meaning identification, but you are absolutely correct in that assessment. Observe Thyself! -The Heretical One Titles have nothing to do with the Work, but are useful within an organization. I don't care of being called Master, Priest or shithead, or not to be called at all, we are supposed to be above that. Aren't we ? It's not about merit, and tittles are given to those supposed to be able to resist identification.
So, when a member is recognized as knowing enough, why to give him a tittle ? Because many beginners or less evolved are participating in this forum and they have to know who is in charge and who is able to give them correct answers. When a Priest of R'lyeh answers, the beginner can be reasonably sure that he can trust him.
Also, no organization, never in human history, did anything valuable without a hierarchy, like it or not.
Awake !What then do you make of Gurdjieff's Institute for the Harmonious Development of Man? Were there titles? Did they do nothing valuable? Does that mean here I automatically go back to being the First Priest of R'lyeh? My knowledge is quite proven... Not that I seek such a thing, but rather because I wish to test the measure being exacted. It seems to me, anyone; neophyte or adept who is truly doing The Work should come to and recognize the value of all considerations. Speaking of consideration... Let's consider this thing carefully; If there is to be an organization, to what purpose is it organizing? Why Yrreiht, do you wish to organize? -DarkHorse
|
|
|
Post by shawnhartnell on Jul 4, 2016 18:11:06 GMT -6
I know this was aimed at Yrright, but this is a really good question that needed to be asked.
Why organize? The same reason that people organize for anything else: to do something that's not possible or is done better otherwise: in other words organization is a solution to a problem or a means to an end.
So the question also is: what can the CoC accomplish as an organization? What ends do we wish it to seek? What problems can it solve? and are these better accomplished through organization vs. alone?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2016 0:27:42 GMT -6
Why Yrreiht, do you wish to organize? Nice to read you again, beastxeno, it was a long time.
shawnhartnell's answer suits me, and I'll add that the idea of peoples freely cooperating to a common project is cool, but there is a little detail : Being a political project, a internet forum or a barbecue, that is not working.
Please note that I'm on a very basic level here, no esoteric vocabulary and no high thoughts, it is just common sens. Organization is the basis of cooperation.
|
|
|
Post by Beast Xeno on Jul 5, 2016 3:39:17 GMT -6
Why Yrreiht, do you wish to organize? Nice to read you again, beastxeno, it was a long time.
shawnhartnell's answer suits me, and I'll add that the idea of peoples freely cooperating to a common project is cool, but there is a little detail : Being a political project, a internet forum or a barbecue, that is not working.
Please note that I'm on a very basic level here, no esoteric vocabulary and no high thoughts, it is just common sens. Organization is the basis of cooperation.You are well stated here. Organization is the basis of cooperation. Neither organization or cooperation is The Work. Still I would ask you further; or anyone for that matter. Are titles truly important in either, an organization or The Work? If they are how?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2016 8:08:07 GMT -6
I don't want to organize the Work, which is no more clever than wanting to organize the Void, but what can, and in my opinion should be organized is some teaching about the Work.
Organization imply discipline and function ; If I want to make a barbecue, I will trust my wife for buying the meet and other foods, so after she agree, she will have the function of buying food. Now about tittles. I will not grant her the tittle of "Grand Director of Buying" because it is not needed.
On this forum however, it seems to me useful to indicate to the neophyte the fact that this guy is recognized as knowing enough and that this one has a function. The tittle is here for that.
For the Work itself, sure a tittle is useless.
|
|
|
Post by Beast Xeno on Jul 5, 2016 22:09:04 GMT -6
I don't want to organize the Work, which is no more clever than wanting to organize the Void, but what can, and in my opinion should be organized is some teaching about the Work.
Organization imply discipline and function ; If I want to make a barbecue, I will trust my wife for buying the meet and other foods, so after she agree, she will have the function of buying food. Now about tittles. I will not grant her the tittle of "Grand Director of Buying" because it is not needed.
On this forum however, it seems to me useful to indicate to the neophyte the fact that this guy is recognized as knowing enough and that this one has a function. The tittle is here for that.
For the Work itself, sure a tittle is useless. Look Y man, I'm not asking you what you want to organize (If you can organize the teachings of the Work, I say have at it... it IS a messy task, I can testify to it. Circular infact), but what I am asking you is WHY you want to organize.. WHY do you want a title? What would/does this organization seek to accomplish and how does a title benefit that Aim? You can be King-God-High Priest- Ipsumusiphis (intentional spelling), for all I care, so long as you've got a clear Aim and it serves that Aim in being called such. Otherwise it's nothing more than grandiose ego masturbation in my eyes, and trust me here, I'm not saying you should care that it is.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2016 0:51:59 GMT -6
Ho, I see.
I received so much from the Cult of Cthulhu. I was a machine, I was lost and willing to dye, and Now, ... I have all what I want, Magick and the Void are my friends, got health, wealth, satisfactions, wisdom. I dramatically changed ! And so did the universe and peoples around me. My wife turned from unpleasant with me to a loving half-submissive housewife. I'm getting the secrets of the Universe.
Let's not bore you any more with my story which interests mostly me, but I have to GIVE BACK. It has to be done to progress further, I have some kind of a debt. That's why I want to do something, that's why I'm still here so long after VS abandoned his functions, and always ready to help those who ear the Call. That's my aim on this forum.
I think, maybe I'm wrong but it's for no other reasons, that a tittle is useful in the process of teaching and spreading the CoC. I think that a neophyte will believe a recognized priest better than an unknown guy on a forum.
My Work is an other affair (although some may argue that spreading the words is part of the Work...).
|
|
|
Post by shawnhartnell on Jul 6, 2016 3:35:07 GMT -6
I received so much from the Cult of Cthulhu... I have to GIVE BACK. It has to be done to progress further, I have some kind of a debt.Yrright, you're not the only one.
|
|
|
Post by shawnhartnell on Jul 11, 2016 3:32:00 GMT -6
I think that a neophyte will believe a recognized priest better than an unknown guy on a forum.
Wouldn't this have the "pope effect" where people will think that they're supposed to accept something as true just because it was said by an authority figure? I'd like noobs to think for themselves, not to believe anything I say outright because I've been designated as "priest" or other authority. Either I can say something worth their time or not, pope hat be damned.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2016 3:03:11 GMT -6
Wouldn't this have the "pope effect" where people will think that they're supposed to accept something as true just because it was said by an authority figure? I'd like noobs to think for themselves, not to believe anything I say outright because I've been designated as "priest" or other authority. Either I can say something worth their time or not, pope hat be damned. I admit that's not false ; however in our case we are warning them against this.
|
|
|
Post by shawnhartnell on Jul 12, 2016 12:48:26 GMT -6
Wouldn't this have the "pope effect" where people will think that they're supposed to accept something as true just because it was said by an authority figure? I'd like noobs to think for themselves, not to believe anything I say outright because I've been designated as "priest" or other authority. Either I can say something worth their time or not, pope hat be damned. I admit that's not false ; however in our case we are warning them against this.Hm. How and where are we warning them against this? Is there a place a noob who's just discovered the Cult can read this? So, beside that... and idea occurred to me: The Fourth Way kinda discusses this sort of thing as an introductory intelligence test. What if we had an an authority figure who's role was to simply be full of bullshit and thus BE an intelligence test? Whatcha think? (I'm just throwing it out there, not taking it too seriously, but it seems like a fun thing to do .)
|
|
|
Post by hereth on Apr 28, 2017 2:46:40 GMT -6
I know this was aimed at Yrright, but this is a really good question that needed to be asked. Why organize? The same reason that people organize for anything else: to do something that's not possible or is done better otherwise: in other words organization is a solution to a problem or a means to an end. So the question also is: what can the CoC accomplish as an organization? What ends do we wish it to seek? What problems can it solve? and are these better accomplished through organization vs. alone? Nothing can be done without power, nothing meaningful that is, we should have influence and when we do we can wake people (some) up from their slumber and pave the way for the great old ones and have some lulz in the process. The organization is a mean to an end, when the deed is done, chaos will rule,till that day comes COC should not recognize any other authority but itself. This does not mean people should not have the ability to think for themselves, I actually have a hard time with authority always has, and this is why I am Left hand path, I don't recognize any authority above myself, but that does not mean that I should not respect people, and if someone is wise,knowledgeable he have more respect for me, if he has surpassed me in knowledge/wisdom I will set my ego aside till I learn everything he/she can teach, so I recognize merit. I think the question here is a Chaos magick cult or a mason/OTO type cult . I lean towards a chaos magick cult. or we may not bound by set in stone rule and just morph between the two when the need arises.
|
|
|
Post by Nyrlthtp on Jun 15, 2018 18:58:02 GMT -6
Deconstructing Titles and Authority
To ask what use it is to have titles at all is to ask about them in all dimensions of social and personal endeavour. There are 3 primary functions for titles of which i am aware, and deconstructing them to reduce them further than this may not be helpful: 1) SOCIAL -- they help people to identify repositories of cultural, technical, or social information in the guise of an expert; 2) PERSONAL OPPORTUNITY -- a title can become an opportunity to step into a role of responsibility and to develop the social function it may imply. In this way they MAY have an overlap into the Work insofar as titles allow someone to emphasize maturing and transformative changes as part of their process. 3) PERSONAL ORDEAL -- it may either engage a process of martyrdom or it may function as a tripping mechanism for ego to blatantly demonstrate contrary to the qualities implied. A further option and activity takes place during ritual magic when special titles are adopted on a temporary basis for purpose and during the time period specified as the ritual event. They are symbolic mantles of glamour to endorse those who can 'cement' the spirit or role so as to catalyze a transformation of the real in context, feature, or person. If this is not potentiated or occurring, then the magic is vacuous.
The Grand High Total Shithead and others explained it well when they said that titles are best used when role-based, provided after demonstrating responsibility and skill (matriculation). In the instance of orders it is sometimes, however, a new ordeal into which one is admitted (catalyzing shock and transmutation). Sadly, they can also be misused to perpetrate self-destructive and self-disabling complexes persisting from trauma or abuse.
1
|
|
|
Post by Nyrlthtp on Jun 15, 2018 19:02:00 GMT -6
Identification and Hierarchy
The problem of identification is always a hazard regarding anything personal to which someone might be emotionally attached. This does not justify the elimination of all such potential hazards because they have functional advantage. Minimizing them to functionality is a suitable solution with respect to this challenge, and being aware of their identification hazards should be a complement during use. Prestige-seeking or folly-finding are performance-oriented evaluatives. It is therefore preferrable that any title has duties or responsibilities attached. This should not simply be a perfunctory authority. People have authority because of what we do and THEN we are assigned tasks of reflecting on our expertise for reference.
The problem isn't the missing of a high priest but an explanation for why a high priest is *needed*, whether his being missing is any problem whatsoever, or if he was doing anything properly assigned to high priests besides answering questions, operating as a doctrinal religious arbiter, and orchestrating a largely unnecessary and illusory hierarchy.
The typical matricular or religious order contends based on shoddy information that their hierarch is skilled with respect to their mystic, magical, or religious techniques, and has a special relationship with the special intelligences associated to the cult in question. Where this is the qualification of the Cult of Cthulhu, then there should have been a period of time whereby the cult had been led in worship by the cleric, the rites constructed and orchestrated, and the congregation mediated. These are the general functions of priests in general and a high priest especially. Absent that, we might ask whether these terms are all hollow and useless for titles.
If certain other designated skills or capacities, such as "following their (true) will" are brought forward to bolster them, then clear direction for the lower priests and laity to identify someone who has done or is doing these things, and what the general symptoms or characteristics of someone skilled in this action should look like, long-term, what counter-indicators there are for the activity demonstrating posers and frauds, etc., must exist for it to be meaningful.
2
|
|
|
Post by Nyrlthtp on Jun 15, 2018 19:05:33 GMT -6
Titular Grandiosity and Self-Debasement
Appellations of self-denegration or self-mockery can just as easily become foci of identification as any other emotionally-charged behavioural choice.* What condition one is in or what 'stage' of development one may designate does not with certainty provide an easy prediction as to whether or not someone will be called upon to take up a title.
In the Fourth Way system as variously described by its proponents, while titles may be eshewed, say, as a trap for identification, the use of *condition descriptors* are just as capable of becoming traps of identification. Whether descriptive terms like 'student', 'alchemist', 'neophyte', 'initiate', 'magician', 'adept', 'master', or, in more formal Fourth Way Terminology, "Man Number {whatever}" or active phrases such as "doing the work", "being present", "engaging self-observation", "being conscious", "ascending", and the like, these can all become identification traps, even more insidiously than conventional role-markers because they gain prestige or find folly all the less visibly while appearing sober and dedicated.
In a religion where "priest" is equated to "who is in charge and who is able to give correct answers", this becomes problematic if there is a serious disconnect between who is actively operating as a priest and who has so debased or dispossessed themselves that they have not the first clue about the real world. A Priest of R'lyeh should talk about what they are doing as clergy, first and foremost. If they are attempting to be Fourth Way advocates, then they should have adequately explained at least to themselves how doing this priestly activity leads to shock, self-remembering, or some other Fourth Way project.
Once we assure the beginner that they can be reasonably sure that they can trust clergy, just because they wear this title, then we have failed to provide them with an adequate orientation to skepticism and the testing of connections to the real. We should be pointing out the active and actual functional hierarchy which exists and why, explaining precisely how the principles of familiarity and proof through time operate, how keys to administrative control are fundamental, and that the four dynamics of the cult are operant exhibits on lasting merit.
There are clear indicators in the context of the cult of doing the work of being there, keeping it together, communicating, and engaging networked sharing of relevant data. Why anyone should be designated artificially as of authority is a process that i think the Evil Magician* could answer most cogently, and we should be wary of this.
====================================== * -- See this page for more on the subject and this site for its Fourth Way ideology expression: thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Evil_magician thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Fourth_Way
3
|
|