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Post by I AM the Way on Sept 20, 2006 13:32:30 GMT -6
that is an excellent question, ibiss. i wondered the same thing when i was first learning about it. speaking in terms of the Fourth Way, 'imagination' is taken as:
1. believing that you have something which you don't have. such as a waking state of consciousness, since most of the time we are asleep.
2. entertaining negative and self-destructive thoughts which have no use at all. for instance, daydreaming about being in a horrible car wreck.
of course, there's nothing wrong with healthy or fruitful imagination, like positive visualization, fantasizing, etc.
to put it in the Cult of Cthulhu paradigm, there is imagination which comes from the universe, Lesser Imagination, which controls us, makes us mechanical, and desires to feed upon our suffering. then there is Greater Imagination which comes from Outside, this is a part of our advanced evolutionary consciousness and can help us break through the barriers of this world.
Venger Satanis High Priestwww.CultofCthulhu.net
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Post by luxcthonis on Oct 1, 2007 10:37:38 GMT -6
Since reading CC (Cthulhu Cult) I have practiced awakening a few times with a substantial degree of success. I was not able to maintain this state for more than 20-40 seconds before I could sense myself going back into slumber, or becoming immersed in the dream. The first time it happened I was in a store, and as I walked through the toy aisles, I began to notice how everything had a similarity to my dream-vision (posted in the Eldritch Dreaming section). I thought of how absurd it was to have items lined up on shelves to be presented to the general public for mass-consumption; all colorful stuffed-animals lined up in a row. Neon patch-work. No sooner had I begun to Awaken when I bagan to fall back asleep. I liken it to when your body is physically "asleep," one dreams, etc., and if such a person wakes up, it is but for a moment, for the sleeper is ever-inclined toward sleep. It takes great effort at these stages to awaken fully, as it is well known to anybody who has had to wake up suddenly, or after only a few hours sleep, to keep some appointment. One does not want to wake up, and if one wants to, sometimes the person is lacking in sufficient strength to put forth an effort. These are just some remedial observations I have noticed since joining the Cult, and applying its principles to my life. Lvx, H.
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Post by jasmine on Nov 6, 2007 12:22:20 GMT -6
I am not sure I agree with Venger that gnosis and self remembering are interchangeable. The method of achieving gnosis seems terribly similar to what Gurdjeiff is saying....I really feel that the understanding of what gnosis is highly personal. I feel that in another thread Venger was proposing a theory put forth by a man named Ken Wilder that states there are three states to the rational mind....I feel that the understanding of gnosis is the pre-rational form of understanding the idea of self remembering but it is only in achieving the trans-rational state of mind that we can truly understand self remembering as being something seperate from what we consider gnosis. As I mentioned before I postulate this theory based on personal experience, I had a moment of self remembering earlier in my life and I continued to practice gnosis as I understood it for 15 years. I never had another moment like that until I consciously Worked for it. Now it seems to be happening more often but I am still working on control...or letting go.
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Aug 31, 2008 22:27:32 GMT -6
Cthulhu Cult introduces awakening basically, and outlines what is needed to get started. The rest is left up to the individual cultist, rightly so. However no one has discussed these 2nd and more importantly 3rd stages of awakening in depth on this site, at least to my knowledge. So i have created this thread with that intent. Here i figure we can network ideas and approaches to ensure that no one can go off the less then clear path.
One of the major stump in the 4th way is the ability to remain awake for longer periods of time. It seems that it is this crucial step that most people fail to climb. Personally the best method i can offer is the use of your cult name. If you have joined then you would have undoubtably have received one. Depending on how you use this name is wether or not this approach to long term awakening will work. I use the name as an alternate persona, assumed during ritual and spell craft. When i assume this persona it is not unlike an actor getting into character. However i use simple meditation techniques to bring it to manifestation as almost a demon possession. this is not unlike the voodoo practice of altered consciousness. Once this persona is assumed then I(the character) sit within the body as if it were a shell. Moving it as puppet, and not unlike a puppeteer has to focus on every movement of the puppet, so do i. This helps keep the mind focused on the state of gnosis, without inhibiting the whatever it is your doing.
Of course none of this will be possible unless you have mastered the basics of awakening, and grown through understanding the gnosis(these are the 1st and 2nd stages)
Best of luck!
shaz'rahjeem
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Post by sin on Sept 17, 2008 8:14:26 GMT -6
I've just started the book, about a 1/3 of the way in, but I wanted to comment or clarify a few things I have read in this thread.
1. There is no 'true self'; but from what I've read, there is a 'self' but the problem is, there is no main 'contoller self' at the helm, it's multi-faceted. Just as our thoughts evolve, so does the self. I understand that in order to be conscious or self-aware, you must self-observe, but these observations are of (4) functions separately. Intellectual function, emotional function, instinctive function and moving function.
2. In self-observing, the complexity is that despite knowledge of these (4) functions, and how to observe one from the other - we forget. We forget ourselves; and because we forget we have no true will. If we can remember ourselves, we have will and can do what ever we desire.
3. As we become more 'aware' of ourselves, and our functions we can change certain things about ourselves, make adjustments - create a new 'self'.
4. That there are (4) states of consciousness, but that we are only vaguely aware of (2) The sleep state, and the state of 'awake'. The third being self-consciousness, and the fourth objective consciousness. If we can achieve self-consciousness, we can achieve objective consciousness; through these two pathways we can obtain a state of higher-emotional, and higher-mental. This supports my idea that the focus of the COC is achieving changes in our consciousness. I focused on that during the 9 Satanic Questions with Venger, and it seems to me that The Fourth Way, supports that theory.
5. Awareness is a state of permanent self-remembering. This is impossible for us to grasp right now, until we achieve the 3rd and 4th states of consciousness. Right now, we forget ourselves. We think we are awake, and conscious, but we are in a sleep-state, trying to remember ourselves, trying to be aware, and achieve that higher mental state.
am I on the right track here?
Like I said, I'm only at the beginning of the book. My thoughts on this, in correlation to the mythos is that again, we are the Old Ones that must awaken. This interpretation is my own, I have seen time and time again, that many cultists see the 'Old Ones' as external forces, like external gods. I see them as internal, and the lesser gods and 'humans' are the aspects or obstacles we must overcome to awaken.
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Post by I AM the Way on Sept 17, 2008 9:17:06 GMT -6
yes, you are most definitely on the right track. those are the essentials and everything else is just a focused reiteration of those concepts along with advice on how to go about it.
at the beginning, i suggest the 4th way student think about these ideas and consider them while reading and afterwards. start with collecting "I's" that are "leadership material", those selves who want to work yet have no authority right now. these can eventually become one's magnetic center. other than that, just observe. watch yourself, inner and outer.
there are a few different interpretations of the 4th way. for instance, some recognize only 3 centers, lumping the moving and instinctual together so you have: physical, mental, and emotional. no huge difference, it's like those who recognize only 5 chakras instead of 7. i only bring this up because it's important not to take the work dogmatically. understanding the essence of the 4th way is better than adhering to every letter yet losing the big picture.
that is one way to look at it. i've made those same connections. i believe the Old Ones to be both external and internal simultaneously, depending on the observer. but Cultists are free to take it any way they please... even removing the Old Ones from the equation altogether, if that's what they choose.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 6, 2008 3:23:19 GMT -6
If you persevere in the Work and develop on its path, and when you have reached some degree of self-transcendence, you will begin to be able to practice External Considering intentionally. The Work asks you to practice External Considering from the very beginning of your efforts. At first, this seems mostly an issue of exaggerated good manners, but as you go through the process of the Work, your Understanding of what it means and what it takes to be externally considerate in the full sense is beyond your capacity for a very long time. To be externally considerate, very well includes sensitive manners. But it asks you not only to be polite, it asks you to understand the other person's position. It asks that you view the circumstances from the other's point of view and that you treat the other person with intentionality that expresses good will—Conscious Love. It may require being active or it may require being passive, or even withdrawing. Every day, every bit of time you spend in the company of others becomes an opportunity to practice self-transcendence through External Considering. As you do this exercise and develop in the Work, you begin to have an organic Understanding of what it means to be asleep. And as you begin to awaken yourself, you will find it becomes very easy to forgive other people for their condition because you know what being asleep is like. It is full of suffering. External Considering requires a good deal of practice and study that will be useful to you when you gain enough consciousness to choose self-transcendence. But the essential nature and foundation of External Considering is based in forgiveness. It is forgiving people for being asleep. In doing this, you release them from your requirements and you both become free. It means giving others ease and whatever consideration needed. Acting intentionally from Conscience with Understanding and right actions—to do what is Good. the above is the definition of external concerning as definied by that esoteric xianity link www.geocities.com/fourthwaysystem/im just really wondering... how much, if any, of this altruistic world goodness bullshit necessary to Awakening our Consciousness and finding our Real 'I'... how can we be external considerate be forgiving of sleepers when, well me personally, i want to fully Awaken to use my full potential and shape my reality with my will. i want to do better/working spells, i want to control everything around me, free from fate and accidents, i want to become as Godlike as possible, at least in terms of control over my life and the path i walk. how can i do that if im stuck doing good deeds, helping everyone "find themselves" and yada yada...? is that what this site is leading me to believe what awakening is for? metaphysically paying it forward on a worldwide scale? what the fuck? we're here helping eachother because we're a family, we all have the same ideals. but there is us and there is everyone else. in and out. know what i mean? do you know of a better site out there that makes some of the bookwork easier to understand and would do well as a supplementary source of information, HP? but preferably without this annoying Xtian/Right Hand bent?
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Post by I AM the Way on Oct 6, 2008 10:31:04 GMT -6
external considering, as stated by the text you cited, is difficult. while, the esoteric christian emphasis of the 4th way is exaggerating the forgiveness and altruistic aspects, external considering is still necessary.
think of it this way, if you're around people all day and invariably most people will make you irritated if not angry, then you cannot properly remember yourself and struggle to Awaken. instead, you're going to be pissed off and wondering why that fuck head is being such an asshole!
so it is important to remember that everyone around you is asleep and acting mechanically. external considering, taking things from another person's point of view, is useful for several reasons...
1. it's good practice to see life from outside yourself. thinking from multiple positions will make you a better strategist. for example, look at a chess board from various angles and you'll see things that you'd ordinarily miss.
2. it will allow you to relate to people better. instead of being upset by their behavior, you can let it roll off your back because you can understand where they're coming from. you force yourself to empathize with this other person. less negativity equals more self-observation.
3. it puts people at ease and makes them enjoy your company. if people like you, then they are more likely to help you out when you need help. occasionally people even find themselves dependent on you because you aren't treating them like a douche bag as the rest of the world does, rather you consider them as if they were a swell human being. that kind of rapport is power.
external considering breaks the duality of us versus them. you become the third side and can see the quandary from an elevated, and therefore superior, position. so, forget the forgiving people out of Jesus' love rhetoric, but realize that external considering is an important facet of the 4th way.
www.geocities.com/Tokyo/1236/
that's one site that probably couldn't hurt. unfortunately, almost every 4th way expert / wannabe demagogue is using the internet not to teach people about the 4th way, but to accumulate followers. and, as i hope most of you know, this is where the CoC differs.
while i like power, influence, people agreeing with me, and it would be great to have a ton of slaves obeying my every wish... that is a fool's paradise. it's not practical, nor is it fruitful. one more dictator ruling over a multitude of servants... how does that help humanity? how could it further our evolution? sometimes, an individual has to look past his petty desires.
i don't have all the answers. i have flaws. i'm not god, and don't even pretend to believe that i'm Awake 24/7. to some degree, i have escaped from my prison. i am alone and cannot assist the Ancient Ones without help. that is why i try liberating others, so more people can join me in His Emerald Kingdom.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Oct 29, 2008 21:09:26 GMT -6
i see what she means. as im reading the book ive been trying to imagine the person that has it all down pat and is the "ideal" 4th way student, and that person is kind of a fucking weirdo in my mind's eye lol. junk drawer, buffet table, whichever... i totally understand that approach and while im not done with the book ive been kind of "ear-marking" shit im going to kind of put aside later.
that said, we have an amazing oppotunity here, HP. im seeing where this is going and it is incredible!!!
the CoC could be the one true 4th Way In The Context Of The LHP School. you have said yourself to be wary of a lot of the 4th way groups out there, they are overly doctrinal and dogmatic to the point of stunted growth. we will not be that. but i say lets take the 4th Way and MOLD it;s merits and teachings into our LHP philosophy! instead of the CoC being an amalgam of satanism, 4th way, chaos magick, etc... let us simply the Cult Of Cthulhu, no comparison available!!!!
we're on the cusp of something new and great this world has not seen yet and im really excited to be a part of the CoC right now
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Post by I AM the Way on Nov 2, 2008 15:01:16 GMT -6
i will try to give you the basics right here. this will in no way be comprehensive, but you'll have an idea. also, a number of 4th way ideas were incorporated into our bible, Cthulhu Cult. so some of it should look familiar.
1. we are all asleep. the 4th way teaches us how to be Awake, which is to say, more conscious.
2. we have many 'I's. many selves within ourself who all call themselves "I". our 'I's don't know each other.
3. we are rooted in imagination which means we believe we have faculties that we do not have, such as will. people cannot will anything to happen. things just happen to us, usually by accident.
4. people are too negative. negativity robs us of energy and draws attention away from being conscious.
5. people identify too much. when our attention goes to something else like a political race, a video game, what we want to have for dinner, we disappear. our identification obscures consciousness.
6. 4th way practitioners need to remember themselves. observe yourself and your inner 'I's. pay attention to the 'I' who wants to get an education (positive), the 'I' who wants to have sex with the person over there (neutral), and the 'I' who wants to indulge in mind-numbing drugs (negative). there are hundreds of facets that reflect positive, neutral, and negative aspects of us.
7. find those positive 'I's that wish to work, to reach new stages of consciousness. introduce those 'I's to each other and have them put forth a combined effort to remember yourself... this is called Magnetic Center and is the first step to Awakening.
if you have questions, you can post them or start reading The Fourth Way or The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution both by P.D. Ouspensky. i just found the latter in cyberspace here:
www.scribd.com/doc/6137933/The-Psychology-of-Mans-Possible-Evolution-P-D-Ouspenski
it's not too long, so read it and then you'll have a much better idea of the 4th way.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by egodiabolus on Jan 27, 2009 15:51:08 GMT -6
I am in the process of reading "The Forth Way" by Ouspensky as per the many suggestions here. It is an intriguing process, although I personally would prefer some sort of updated text presented in a more linear manner. It seems to me that, once a person can more consistantly experience an awakened state, then their true work on the self begins. Ouspensky describes common reality as a prison, one where individuals tend to do more reacting out of habit and programming than actual thinking and responding in a concious manner. The effort is to escape that prison, to escape that programming and to take control of the self. We are machines lulled by this reality to function in a manner that is simplest, but not our correct manner of function. Thus, we miss out on the potential of our machine when it is operating at peak efficiency. The effort is to correct this process, to unlearn the easy routes and to discover our true potential. Suffering is the key to this process, but not in the manner that common language suggests. Other groups I have been involved with and authors I have read seemed to have missed the point when discussing suffering. You don't use suffering as a manner of denial...denial does not create understanding. Instead, you limit your access to something you need so that your appetite for it is sharpened. In this state our awareness peaks, increasing the opportunity for observation of our machine and wakefulness. The simplest manner of suffering is not eating, or reducing the amount of food eaten and frequency of eating. You still eat, you keep the machine functioning, but you also stay hungry...advise so often given to those seeking power. Imagine it, a system to achieve a higher awareness is also a system for weight loss!
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Post by Narlool L'Pah on Mar 22, 2009 5:36:18 GMT -6
I've realised something recently.
I've been on the 4th way personally for a while. I just did not know what to call it.
I was seeking the spiritual truth actively since I was 18.
So I was reading and exposing myself to all kinds of beliefs and experiences.
I didn't care if it was Hindu/New Age/Christian/Pagan etc, I just wanted to test it to see if it was the truth.
Along the way I've clashed with the 'follower'. These are the bulk of the people who are in the various spiritual movements. The dedicated followers, They have read the rules back to front and they actively enforce 'the rules'. They are not interested in the truth, especially if it clashes with the rules.
I don't think it matters what path people choose, most of them will use it as a blanket to help them sleep.
The other day on a pagan site we started talking about Death. Some lass starts talking about 'what do pagans believe", and cut and paste a whole bunch of gunk.
I realised then what was happening. Instead of exploring our experiences and the psychic world.... I was having 'The Rules' read to me.
I'm not interested in what the history or teachings say...I'm interested in the experience, the reality, the truth.
I think this is the core of the 4th way. Self directed Truth seeking, above dogma, above rules, above history....even above the cult of cthulhu bible (If you get my meaning).
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Post by sin on Apr 28, 2009 9:53:14 GMT -6
Very well said. I agree that Christianity is a cult has been and will so be. I find a place in the CoC that I haven't found anywhere else. So, you are a willing participant in a cult. It's no different than any of these other cults out there (past and present). It starts here. We 'enjoy' our involvement in it. Much like the cult members of say, the Children of God. They threw themselves into it full force, isn't that what we are doing in some regard? In lieu of self-examination, I am not deluding myself into believing I am not an active member of a cult, but rather than take pride in my decision to be active in a cult :-P
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Post by Lord Void Bharam'ka on May 31, 2009 1:39:56 GMT -6
What techniques or rituals would you suggest for someone trying to increase their personal power? What I mean by personal power is that inner resolve, that inner drive. Say for an ex-slave who is used to submitting themselves on the Right hand path. They wake up, and wish to follow LHP....but need to transform their inner energy. First of all you must be a Slave before you and become Free... Even when you a Not on the RHP you are a Slave until you completely wake up... Many people will disagree, argue, and get pissed at me for calling them Slaves. How can you free something that is already free? Own your Slavery... Learn to be Happy as a Slave... But don't be satisfied... I'm a Slave of The Dark Gods, specifically The Ancient Ones, and I'm Damn Proud of it. If you haven't noticed yet I have a very Tantric approach. True Tantra not the American version. My best advice besides that is worship your deity you Slave Meditate on Nothingness/Consciousness/Self... Nothing is Everything and Everything is Nothing Self is Consciousness Consciousness is Nothingness And last practice perform acts of Magick or Reality Manipulation Believe you can and give Yourself Credit for successful acts. For me these have got me a long way... edit additions: Also when you are awake ask yourself if you are awake or asleep and remind yourself to ask the same question in dreams as you drift off to sleep... this helps with the whole Self-Consciousness-Nothingness To realize and know your are Nothingness is merely the first step... I have realized this and I know this, but that's just the beginning... Another practice that got me results was a mantra I would walk around saying or thinking "Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagen" For me it translates to "Hail Hail Cthulhu's Dream" We are Cthulhu's Dream... Cthulhu's Dream is Consciousness I got dramatic results with this but had to stop because I went off the Deep-End... I wasn't quite prepared for what got into... Dream and Reality melded and I felt Godly... Realizing that I was a figment of Cthulhu's Imagination Freed me... It went hay-wire when I realized that Cthulhu could have Nightmares too... That was FUCKED!!! So yeah, If anything weird happens in Waking talk to friends and fellow cultists that understand what you are doing and take a break even if yo become obsessed... I became obsessed and my best friend literally slapped the shit out of me and he and my wife locked up all my occult gear which was a lot of shit... wow, I'm ranting again...
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Post by sin on Jun 11, 2009 9:27:57 GMT -6
Masks
Don't be fooled by the face I wear, for I wear a thousand masks, And none of them are me. Don't be fooled, for goodness sake, don't be fooled.
I give you the impression that I'm secure, that confidence is my name and coolness is my game, And that I need no one. But don't believe me.
Beneath dwells the real me in confusion, in aloneness, in fear. That's why I create a mask to hide behind, to shield me from the glance that knows, But such a glance is precisely my salvation.
That is, if it's followed by acceptance, if it's followed by love. It's the only thing that can liberate me from my own self-built prison walls. I'm afraid that deep down I'm nothing and that I'm just no good, And that you will reject me.
And so begins the parade of masks. I idly chatter to you. I tell you everything that's really nothing and Nothing of what's everything, of what's crying within me.
Please listen carefully and try to hear what I'm not saying. I'd really like to be genuine and spontaneous, and me. But you've got to help me. You've got to hold out your hand.
Each time you're kind and gentle, and encouraging, Each time you try to understand because you really care, My heart begins to grow wings, feeble wings, but wings.
With your sensitivity and sympathy, and your power of understanding, You alone can release me from my shallow world of uncertainty.
It will not be easy for you. The nearer you approach me, The blinder I may strike back.
But I'm told that Love is stronger than strong walls, And in this lies my only hope.
Please try to beat down these walls with firm hands, But gentle hands, for a child is very sensitive.
Who am I, you wonder. I am every man you meet, and also every woman that you meet, And I am you, also.
-Author Unknown ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps 'masks' are tools of strength, vs. veil for weaknesses. I utilize archetypes in my personal practices. Archetypcal structures are 'tools' for personal growth, not a means to hide 'true identity'.
What is true identity? When we say 'I want...' which 'I' is making the demand?
Do we have collective I's? I've been working with The Fourth Way philosophies, and the 'work' is to work on oneself. Self-examine, self-awareness and personal growth.
Gurdjieff believed that there were 3 ordinary ways to growth and development:
fakir, monk, and yogi.
The fakir, works on the physical The monk, works on the emotional The yogi, works on the mental
but there's a fourth way.
[glow=red,2,300]Understanding.[/glow]
If man does not understand, how does he know what to work on? How can he accept what must be changed?
As a fourth way student, I recognize the tools available to me and I use them for betterment of the self. I have no need to veil or hide who and what I am - because I understand who and what I am. I use the masks as tools, for the 'work' to be done.
The Fakir, comes from Sufi idealism. The Monk, comes from Christian/Buddhist idealism. The Yogi, comes from Hindi/Sikh idealism.
The Fourth Way, is highly Satanic.
* Conscious labor * Intentional suffering as a means to an end. * Self-awareness * Constant self-observation * Self-remembering, muscle memory
Activism is a Satanic act. If you are not active in your own evolution - you are passive, and continue to slumber.
[glow=green]Awaken, and understand. [/glow]
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Post by LostSoul on Jun 12, 2009 0:20:47 GMT -6
As a proud pagan, Drenki...I'm not too fond of the comparison to a bleating animal, thank you very much...
...But, I suspect that your reference was mostly directed towards those fluffy bunny new-ager pagans; so, I'll let it slide... *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*
And, yes, there are followers in the world who do nothing but preach rehotric that they've heard from others without seeking clarification...
And, I will also confess that my knowledge of the subject of the 4th way philosophy is rather stark and empty...But, I do know a little something in regards to truth.
That being...Truth is utterly subjective!!!
I cannot begin to count the number of times that truth has clashed with me over my many years of searching for answers. Examples of truth: It was truth that the sun once revolved around the Earth...It was truth that the Earth was the centre of the universe...It was truth that man was the begin-all, and end-all of all intelligent beings...
In other words; truth as the end result of all our searching and questioning is complete BS! For, truth will change as soon as "facts" become more clear.
Perhaps you meant facts; and not truth...In which case, my commentary is mostly useless...
However, if "truth" is what you truly meant...May I suggest taking a moment to view the movie, "Altered States"...Or, better yet, read the original Paddy Chaifsky(sp) novel. In summation; it tells the story of a man in endless pursuit of universal truth...But, in the end; all he is left with, is wanting because in his search he has lost all that is valuable and dear...Family; friends; self-respect; and, love...Even the most mundane of actions; simple human contact; is empty from his life. He found truth; but found it did NOT hold the answers...It never did.
I perfer to go on faith.
True, something that is based on absolutely nothing but one's own perspective is shaky at best...But, faith, is what brought us all here, if you think about it. We had faith in the old ones; we had faith in what they wanted from us; we had faith that we were not only doing their bidding; but, what their bidding was.
Where does "truth" fit in when all we have to go on; are the scattered writings of a long-dead author; myths and legends gleamed from the barest of resources; and, dreams that sporadically pop up from time to time...
Truth may very well be a part of our journey...But, it's faith that will carry us to that final destination; to that door; and what awaits us on the other side...
Simple faith.
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Dec 17, 2009 19:53:11 GMT -6
This thread didn't get much attention when i started it over a year ago. It would seem that there has been a flux in the last couple weeks so maybe this is a good time to talk about techniques for maintaining the awakened state etc.
I would like to introduce another technique which i have found to work.
`start by lying on the ground, anywhere is fine but somewhere you don't usually frequent is best. `Lay on your back, arms at the side, legs parallel(almost like c coffin pose) `close your eyes `then begin to sink yourself. this is a druidic practice. start buy breathing slow and deep. then just let each of your limbs 'sink' into the ground. ie. let it drop into its own dead wait. the traditional way is to do your entire body very slowly but its not necessary. `now open your eyes slowly `treat everything as if you have never experienced it before. so basically sit up slowly, pay attention to everything you do, think, feel, notice. because you've "never been in this body, this existence"
I know it sounds kind of silly but it works this should make you do things deliberately, albeit slowly. this can help to awaken and you could hold that state for much longer.
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Post by ph33ric on Feb 11, 2010 12:44:37 GMT -6
the ego..... is kindov... your expectations of the world. a steriotyp you hold can be derived from your ego.... when you go to eat a food, your preconcieved notion of your expectation of the experience is also derived from your ego.... basicly.... in order to grow you need to compleatly smash your ego, temperarily, so you may look at yourself as you truly are and and then grow based on that observation.....
your ego is the expectations of you, others and reality itself.
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Post by beastx on Mar 2, 2010 23:01:09 GMT -6
Self-remembering demands the necessity of constant work on oneself in order to attain it. The imperfection of our language creates a difficulty in conveying Objective Truth through words. Ordinary knowledge is subjective and is based on ordinary methods of observation and verification of observations. Ordinary knowledge is transmitted and understood best through the use of our language largely impart due to the obviously subjective nature of both. Ancient knowledge is based upon ancient methods and principles of observation. It is the knowledge of things in themselves. Knowledge revealed through an objective state of consciousness can be called the Objective Truth. Ancient knowledge is transmitted and understood best through the use of symbolism. This is becomes obvious due to the objective nature of both.
I could write a book trying to describe a particular tree and still fall terribly short in helping you to know this tree. After all how can one describe its relationship to the ground below, the sky above, or the surrounding landscape? However an objective understanding of it can be formed by its transference as a symbol. We all instinctively understand the tree as an object. We also instinctively recognize its relations to all that surrounds it, including ourselves. Through this objectivity the unveiling of a type of unification becomes obvious. We begin to realize we are all a part of a larger whole.
"I will try to convey what followed as far as I remember it, making use partly of notes made by some of G.'s Moscow pupils and partly of notes of my own on the Petersburg talks. "One of the most central of the ideas of objective knowledge," said G., "is the idea of the unity of everything, of unity in diversity. From ancient times people who have understood the content and the meaning of this idea, and have seen in it the basis of objective knowledge, have endeavored to find a way of transmitting this idea in a form comprehensible to others. The successive transmission of the ideas of objective knowledge has always been a part of the task of those possessing this knowledge. In such cases the idea of the unity of everything, as the fundamental and central idea of this knowledge, had to be transmitted first and transmitted with adequate completeness and exactitude. And to do this the idea had to be put into such forms as would insure its proper perception by others and avoid in its transmission the possibility of distortion and corruption."
- P.D. Ouspensky IN SEARCH OF THE MIRACULOUS FRAGMENTS OF AN UNKNOWN TEACHING (Chapter 14)
Ouspensky goes on in length about the Emerald Tablets of Hermes Trismegistus (The Forefather of Alchemy and all other Hermetic Traditions) and the symbolic nature of the Hermetic formulas "As Above, So Below" and "Observe Thyself" giving us a crystal example of Ancient Knowledge. Through Chapter 14 Ouspensky points out that those who've possessed Higher (Acient) Knowledge were well aware of the unreliability of language and chose to express it instead by using "myths", "symbols", and "verbal formulas". Thinking back to the tree mentioned earlier in this text we can quickly discern why it might take an entire book to attempt precisely describe that tree.
During one of my trips to China in 2007, I had the pleasure of having drinks late one night with one of our suppliers. He shared with me, that he thought language barriers multi-dimensional. He went on to explain that he spoke 4 languages. He chuckled and began talking about his wife and how she was from somewhere (I forget where) near but outside of Portugal. He said his wife took her first airplane trip on their honeymoon. Afterwards she excitedly called her mother and talked for 45 mins about the trip. When she hung up, because he was a little disappointed she'd take 45 mins out of the first night of their honeymoon, he asked her what they talked about. She replied "I told her I got on the plane and I was here and safe." Since this dialect of Portuguese was unknown to him, he asked "ok? and what else did you discuss?". She told him that was it. He informed me he had since learned that because their was no word/symbol for an airport or airplane in her native tongue, she had to describe each part and it's function to her mother. He said he imagined she had to describe a huge metal vessel with wings like a bird has. That takes of into the air. It holds alot of people and is controlled by men who are called pilots. The description could easily be imagined, had her native tongue been crude enough, to become exhausting.
Imagine you had never seen a tree. What lengths might I have to go to describe it in precision? What do you feel are the odds that in someway I might fall short? I would venture to say the odds are great. Gurdjieff and Ouspensky are very clear in attributing allegory to "Higher" state of consciousness.
"The study of symbols, their construction and meaning, formed a very important part of the preparation for receiving objective knowledge and it was in itself a test because a literal or formal understanding of symbols at once made it impossible to receive any further knowledge."
- P.D. Ouspensky IN SEARCH OF THE MIRACULOUS FRAGMENTS OF AN UNKNOWN TEACHING (Chapter 14)
"The transmission of the meaning of symbols to a man who has not reached an understanding of them in himself is impossible. This sounds like a paradox, but the meaning of a symbol and the disclosure of its essence can only be given to, and can only be understood by, one who, so to speak, already knows what is comprised in this symbol. And then a symbol becomes for him a synthesis of his knowledge and serves him for the expression and transmission of his knowledge just as it served the man who constructed it."
- P.D. Ouspensky IN SEARCH OF THE MIRACULOUS FRAGMENTS OF AN UNKNOWN TEACHING (Chapter 14)
By now I am sure you all are wondering what allegory has to do with "Objective Truth". Remember the Hermetic formulas? As Above, So Below and Observe Thyself, through Mastery of Symbolism and it's direct relationship to/reflection in you. You are clearly able to recognize your own duality. In this unveils what can be seen as mechanical. At this point we must purify our ego and purge it of self-deceit. For our next task must be to force the machine into subordination. This is the birth of the Trinity. Observe Thyself (self-remembering) is a literal allegory that begins our Great Work. Gurdjieff set off to answer the questions "Who am I?" and "Why am I here?". The answer he came back with was another question "What am I truly capable of?"
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by beastx on Mar 14, 2010 23:20:13 GMT -6
In my previous thread "Observe Thyself - The Birth of the Trinity", I wrote of Ancient Knowledge being the knowledge of things in themselves. I proposed that allegory is the language of Ancient Knowledge. This is because allegory speaks of things in themselves. I spoke of the recognition of one's own mechanical duality. I declared the recognition of this through Our Chief Tenant "Observe Thyself" and the Mastery of that mechanical duality as "The Birth of the Trinity".
The Trinity has long been portrayed through this using the analogy of Mind, Body, and Soul. All things can be experience through at least one of this dimensional trichotomy. I call these dimensional because of the relative belongings. Things of the mind are referred to as "Higher Functional". Suggesting the linear travel of the mind is vertical. Things of body (physical) are in the same respect are things "Abroad". Suggesting the linear travel is horizontal. Things of the spirit are "Rich or Deep". Suggesting the linear travel is depth. Thus making us at the very least 3 dimensional.
"Reasoning by analogy with the existing dimensions, it must be supposed that if the fourth dimension existed it would mean that side by side with us lies some other space which we do not know, do not see, and into which we are unable to pass. It would then be possible to draw a line from any point of our space into this " domain of the fourth dimension " in a direction unknown to us and impossible either to define or to comprehend. If we could visualize the direction of this line going out of our space then we should see the " domain of the fourth dimension ". - A New Model of the Universe by P.D. Ouspensky (Chapter 2)
"Fechner wrote a great deal about the fourth dimension. From his discussions about worlds of one, two, three and four dimensions there follows a very interesting method of investigating the fourth dimension by means of building up analogies between worlds of different dimensions, i.e. between an imaginary world on a plane and the three-dimensional world, and between the three-dimensional world and the world of four dimensions This method is used by nearly all those who have ever studied the problem of higher dimensions, and we shall have occasion to meet with it further on." - A New Model of the Universe by P.D. Ouspensky (Chapter 2)
While rereading A New Model of the Universe by P.D. Ouspensky, this curious section, prompted me to look for the microcosmic counterpart to the macrocosmic phenomenon . Really what could this fourth dimension be? What way could I measure the accuracy of Ouspensky's "Psychic Dimension"?
"From the point of view of geometry, according to Hinton, the question of the fourth dimension may be examined in the following way. We know geometrical figures of three kinds:
Figures of one dimension—lines. Figures of two dimensions—planes. Figures of three dimensions—solids. A line is regarded here as the trace of a point moving in space. A plane—as the trace of a line moving in space. A solid—as the trace of a plane moving in space. Let us imagine a straight line limited by two points, and let us designate this line by the letter a. Let us imagine this line a moving in space in a direction perpendicular to itself and leaving a trace of its movement. When it has traversed a distance equal to its length, the trace left by it will have the form of a square, the sides of which are equal to a line a, i.e. a2. Let us imagine this square moving in space in a direction perpendicular to two of its adjoining sides and leaving a trace of its movement. When it has traversed a distance equal to the length of one of the sides of the square, its trace will have the form of a cube, i.e. a3. Now if we imagine the movement of a cube in space, what form will the trace left by such a movement, i.e. figure a4, assume? Examining the correlations of figures of one, two and three dimensions, i.e. lines, planes and solids, we can deduce the rule that a figure of a higher dimension can be regarded as the trace of the movement of a lower dimension. On the basis of this rule we may regard figure a4 as the trace of the movement of a cube in space. But what is this movement of a cube in space, the trace of which becomes a figure of four dimensions? If we examine the way in which figures of higher dimensions are constructed by the movement of figures of lower dimensions, we shall discover several common properties and several common laws in these formations. In fact, when we consider a square as the trace of the movement of a line, we know that all the points of this line have moved in space; when we consider a cube as the trace of the movement of a square, we know that all the points of the square have moved. Moreover, the line moves in a direction perpendicular to itself; the square in a direction perpendicular to two of its dimensions. Consequently, if we consider the figure a4 as the trace of the movement of a cube in space, we must remember that all the points of the given cube have moved in space. Moreover, we may deduce from analogy with the above that the cube was moving in space in a direction which is not contained in the cube itself, i.e. a direction perpendicular to its three dimensions. This direction, then, would be the fourth perpendicular unknown to us in our space and in our geometry of three dimensions." - A New Model of the Universe by P.D. Ouspensky (Chapter 2)
Suddenly something I had read over relentlessly in my analysis of the Trinity rang into my mind. Something about the following excerpt alerted my "Beastily Instincts" (lmao... couldn't resist). Watch closely....
"When self-deceit is destroyed and a man begins to see the difference between the mechanical and the conscious in himself, there begins a struggle for the realization of consciousness in life and for the subordination of the mechanical to the conscious. For this purpose a man begins with endeavors to set a definite decision, coming from conscious motives, against mechanical processes proceeding according to the laws of duality. The creation of a permanent third principle is for man the transformation of the duality into the trinity. "Strengthening this decision and bringing it constantly and infallibly into all those events where formerly accidental neutralizing 'shocks' used to act and give accidental results, gives a permanent line of results in time and is the transformation of trinity into quaternity." In Search of the Miraculous by P.D. Ouspensky (Chapter 14)
A few things are going on here. First in our shift from the ordinary duality of mechanical function to the awareness of conscious operator. We are alerted to a principle... But what principle is described? The recognition of being! We transform a sleeping unaware participant into a now alerted consciousness. Once we become aware of our 3 dimensional state, we now must begin to confirm, deny, or reconcile. We must measure and weight all things through this "Lens". Ouspensky exhaustively covers this in chapter two of A New Model of the Universe. I use lens as our means of perception because lens effect our view. This is key because as we examine again, we quickly notice we cannot grasps all three dimensions at once and be the summation of those 3 dimensions. This suggests there must be a fourth dimension. The above excerpt from In Search of the Miraculous' last sentence gives a clear tell-tale indication to this dimension. It is clearly a psychic dimension.
In understanding this we must first look at something I feel is a reasonably universal constant in the analytical understanding. I think therefore I am. I suppose I have taken for granted the distinction between Soul/Spirit. I have dismissed it as being a minor variable of the same. I couldn't be more wrong. Being that are both things belonging to the realm of the invisible this is easily done.
Let's talk first about Spirit. Let us look at some of the attributes of spirit. If someone is driven by something it is said to be "spirited". If someone is follows any path toward enlightenment is "spiritual". It seems the spirit is always associated with movement. The Soul appears now to be the vessel, a body of eternal potential, that houses the spirit. However this paves the understanding of both the fourth and fifth dimensions and splicing them needs to be done with precision. So which is the fourth and which the fifth?
In this I'm unsteady. I believe psychic and spirit are one and the same. Both suggest movement and energy. I think Ouspensky should have used "Animated" as our fourth dimension. This is why... When considering things of three dimensions and trying to truly know them. We must first observe the physical (3 dimensions) and then we must be them (experience).
The Title of this entry is clearly appropriate.
By his Loathsome Tentacles, Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh
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Post by beastx on Mar 17, 2010 15:17:39 GMT -6
Every phenomenon comes from a 'Current' (field/dimension) of energy. All our thoughts, our feelings, and every movement of the body is the manifestation of a specific energy. In our sleep-walking state, that current is constantly swelling and flooding. The endless focus and blur that happens as we shift from thought to feeling to sensation creates a fluctuating series of impulses. We deceive ourselves believing this is me or "I". As one desire is crystallized and then either fulfilled or dismissed, it is quickly replaced with another. We become slave to a pattern of contradiction in which there can be no continuity of intention. This continuity of intention is recognized by us as True Will. This deception of self, believes that the fluctuating series of impulses is itself. It creates a wall of illusion professing it is acting of will power and independence. This wall of illusion is understood as a "Mask". The mask in itself is an amazing tool of transformation. However it bears the potential for greater evils of the psyche. When used consciously it can unlock the doors of transformation and allow us to create our "Higher Selves". When we make the mistake of allowing it to trick us into believing that it is our "Higher Self", we pave the way of self destructive tendency.
This is what Gurdjieff was calling "The Terror Of The Situation".
Since its birth, Science has attempted to accurately detail the processes and mechanisms of the universe. From the macrocosm to the microcosm it has failed disastrously to take into account in its equations the dimension of conscious experience. It cannot capture the meaning of perception, nor depict the nature thought. The abstract and mental system of mathematical symbols is void of human experience, spirituality, and creativity.
Two parallel perceptions of reality, which as they are can never meet, are the scientific language of definition (Ordinary Knowledge) and the symbolic language of perception (Ancient Knowledge). We are compelled to take sides, the logical versus the intuitive, matter versus spirit, visible versus invisible, subjective versus objective, and finite versus infinite. The logical see the idea that there is a "something" that no one can touch, no one can see, and no instrument can detect is obviously ridiculous. Dismissing it as fiction. His impatience and intolerance groups both metaphysics and spirituality as ludicrous superstition. He is convinced everything is hinged together in a logical sequence of events which accidentally produced man. The universe is nothing more than a senseless systematic chain reaction that is blind and without purpose to the logical.
Consciousness is an integral part of the Current which is the fourth dimension. Formed by frequency of vibrations which flux and flow through all things animating everything. Master Satanis is correct this animation more often than not is working through us and not because of us. Let us examine this through a specific lens. From a particle level to the perceptual level, man is built up from small groups working together. Like pixels to the picture, the evidence of man's own emanationism is undeniable. In this perception every phenomenon is situated in its relationship to others. We are undoubtedly, accepted or not, all a piece of a larger reality. As slaves to this reality, we succumb to its continuity of intention. Intuitively we sense this but mistrust the value of intuition.
The Cult of Cthulhu does not. The Cult of Cthulhu recognizes this mechanical enslavement. Our creed has mandated us to reject this self deceit and mutate. Transform into the oozing free-formed entity of Cthulhu.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die." - Lovecraft
Nothing illustrates this curious phenomenon better that the above quote. For along time I was misguided in it's nature. I felt this was merely fiction. No existing records of this mythical priest of cosmic horror, could be provided without seriously stretching and skewing the facts. I've always regarded Lovecraft's work as Masterful. Artwork which transforms our very perceptions and opens in us a sense of wonder and awe.
Artwork is completely intuitive. There are frequencies of vibrations in the colors, shapes, geometry, and above all it's complete field which evoke corresponding frequencies in us. We can perceive our own feelings being intensified as their energy, is transformed by the impression of the artwork. The results are not of accident but of a unique process. To understand this, we must examine the source of our creative impulses. We tend to try to explain all artistic and spiritual experiences as psychological and cultural conditioning. However the value of experience quickly makes short work of those notions. Artwork taps into the realm of imagination. Imagination believes all things are possible. Possibility is only governed by probability. Lovecraft knew this, hence the expression "When the stars are right".
Something improbable is still entirely possible, just not likely. That is not dead (improbable but still possible) which can eternal lie.
Lovecraft knew....
When the stars are right,
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by lucofthelight on Apr 4, 2010 17:54:06 GMT -6
Hi everyone,
I wanted to start this thread to examine the techniques and methods people like to use for Self Observation. As Ouspensky said in his book 'The Fourth Way', " All one can do for a long time is just observe, he can do nothing else". I guess this is as good a starting point for effort in The Work as any.
Gurdjieff divided things into four categories;
1. The instinctive centre 2. The moving centre 3. The emotional centre 4. The intellectual centre
What I have personally found useful is to go for a walk once or twice a day to dedicate to The Work. Not only is it beneficial physically but also a great time to shut out all other concerns and focus on Self Observation. I usually start by observing myself walking or looking down and watching my body walking, my arms moving back and forth, my legs moving mechanically and see my body mass as a machine of movement. This is quiet a bizarre feeling after a while as I realize I am not my body. Then I try to see myself as if I were across the road looking at myself walking and try to notice the expression on my face, the thought processes I might be having, the things I might be looking at, the emotions I may be feeling, etc. This is a great way to Self Observe as with practice you may see yourself as others see you(to an extent) and also the shortcomings you may have that you may usually deny or sweep under the carpet. Also in this state of Observation I really begin to feel how mechanical I really am, and how thing's really do just happen to me as it would any other animal or person. I am just the universes bitch in reality. With momentum of this practise I can then turn my attention to the emotional centre and see how devoid of emotion I have been in this asleep state. Mostly I see that I am annoyed in life, or bored or angry at my existence and lack of power over my life. There really isn't too much genuine emotion happening, mainly an overriding negativity or disatisfaction. I really didn't realize how badly I'd deluded myself by pretending I was happy and covering up my real emotions. Obviously this is the suffering that feeds the universe and keeps me asleep. Since practising this method over the last 2 to 3 months not only during my walks but also at work when I can remember I have periods during the day where I will realize how useless a lot of my thoughts have been, my emotional states have been and how they literally have been draining my life, keeping me imprisoned. I'm not necessarily at the point where I've replaced the thoughts yet, but I don't worry about things as much as I used to. I now have a choice not to react in the negative way or sink into disdain or depressive tendencies. I'm not necessarily happy but I have more tranquility in my mental and emotional life. Also, these practices trigger different states of perception or consciousness in me so things that were normal or typical, such as work or mundane tasks seem different like I'm experiencing them differently now, slightly more awake and less mechanical. Also when I used to deal with people at work that grate me, I can now see in them that they are also just the universes pawns and have no real will also and that enables me to understand there reactions and emotions better, where as before it just use to annoy me. It's like seeing through new lenses that are upgrading daily.
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Post by I AM the Way on Apr 6, 2010 13:43:06 GMT -6
First things first. This is from your little website, G'pock R'han. What is the meaning of it?
If you have a better way to go about things, then please enlighten us.
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that we must find a way to assimilate The Teaching into our paradigm, not the other way around. I created this religion with the Fourth Way in mind, knowing the importance of reaching higher states of consciousness. Yet, our use of The Work must remain congruent with the Left Hand Path. If we cannot approach Godhood, then what the hell are we doing?
I'm glad you brought this point up as well, First Priest of R'lyeh Beast Xeno.
Are we suppressing or repressing our negative emotions by not expressing them... or are we doing something else?
Say, for example, that we're just coming out of the gym after a long workout. We are thirsty. A friend comes up to us and hands us a flask of whiskey because the gym's water fountain is broken. Whiskey might be liquid, but is it what we need to quench our thirst and re-hydrate our body? Of course not. We say "no" and move on in the search for H2O.
Now, are we either suppressing or repressing our desire for the whiskey just because we refuse to accept it? Or are we instead just saying "no" to something that we do not want, something that can not help us?
Not expressing anger isn't the same as burying it. This is a crucial distinction, so I'm happy to discuss it as often as we need to and from as many different angles as necessary. Not lashing out at your boss for being an asshole might feel like suppression at first; however, it soon becomes second nature. No longer a feeling on the verge of boiling over. Neural pathways simply find a different direction in which to travel, a healthier one.
We need not destroy it because energy can be blocked. If you shoot an energy blast (pretend you're a comic book hero or villain) at something which is magically shielded, then the energy will be dispersed around the target. Therefore, we should create our own shield to protect us from the universe's hostility.
You are correct that everything having to do with us must be consciously directed so that it is not left up to the capricious whims of the universe. A conscious individual cannot be caught up and swept away in a negative current.
In point of fact, we are machines. All we're doing at this early stage is to fix our broken machine so that it can run properly.
Indeed, using negativity by changing it or redirecting it is a good plan. Let our non-expression of negativity lead us to remembering ourselves. Or diffuse negative emotions with humor. Possibly the best redirection is to work harder at changing our lives for the better. If someone rips on you for being ignorant of A,B, and C; then why not keep pride in check and research A, B, and C just in case that person is right?
Also, the ritual chamber is an excellent venue for expressing all of the negative emotions we cannot block or redirect. Instead of focusing inwards, all that negativity is forcibly driven out of us as we attempt to contact the A:O. In the ritual chamber, negative emotions can be expelled properly and with a much greater chance of result.
By His loathsome tentacles,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by lucofthelight on Apr 6, 2010 15:55:34 GMT -6
And that is the dilemma that we face on a day to day basis Master Satanis and Beast Xeno. What is the proper usage of these negative emotions? The ritual chamber is certainly a great place for release. But it isn't always possible in a day to day situation. You may release these emotions in the chamber one day and feel quiet calm for several days after and see some intended effects but in the case of working with enemies and nuisances in your daily career or job such as I do, then the same things will continue to come up as many people do not want to change. The same stubborn patterns repeat themselves with these people. In this way I find The Work incredibly practical in at least getting me through the day without too much stress and anger building up. I have also found sometimes diverting the negativity that arises with these people to deal with my own shortcomings and impatience to be a useful catalyst for my own change and understanding. Or sometimes I will point out their shortcomings in subtle ways(lesser magic) to put the annoyance back on them so they have to deal with it and not me.
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Post by lucofthelight on Apr 7, 2010 7:12:37 GMT -6
I was taught a meditation technique a few years ago which maybe useful to some for self observing;
Close your eyes for a few seconds, then reopen them for a few seconds. Repeat this 2 or 3 times and with each time try to sink into relaxation a little bit more. Once the eyes are closed let your breath take you a bit deeper until you reach a comfortable level of relaxation. Once this is achieved( 1 or 2 minutes)then just begin to observe the sensations in your body, an itch here, a dull ache there, wherever they might arise. Without forcing yourself just guide your attention to where the sensations are occuring. If your mind drifts it doesn't matter too much, again, just bring your attention back to your sensations. It really only needs 5 to 10 minutes but it can help bringing you into the moment, thus producing a very calming effect.
The other benefit I realized once I began reading about the 4th way is that you are Self Observing on a couple of different levels. The instinctual center is being observed such as the sensations of digestion, breathing, heart beat, and the moving center also such as muscle twitches, itching and spontaneous spasms. Not as important perhaps as observing the emotional center but is useful for observing the instinctual as this is quiet hard to observe in normal conditions.
A modification to this is the well known focusing on the 'breath' meditation. Simply observing your breathing without trying to alter or manipulate it and if your attention wanders just guide it back to the breath. Simple but effective. Also it could be of use observing the breath under normal conditions to try to awaken. By bringing the usually instinctive habit of breathing under observation, one can become more conscious.
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Post by beastx on May 13, 2010 17:50:49 GMT -6
I thought I would up the conversation a little. It seems lately people have made claim that they also are "Fourth Way Masters". However the section in which they chose to use to make a point really works against them.
Gurdjieff said " And I tell you that people comparatively rarely tell a deliberate lie. In most cases they think they speak the truth. And yet they lie all the time, both when they wish to lie and when they wish to speak the truth. They lie all the time, both to themselves and to others. " and I couldn't agree more. Rather than make this all about debunking this buffoon, I'm choosing to use this dense text to correct your understanding of these two curious terms.
Doing and Considering
I'm going to do it true Fourth Way style!
For now the importance of this above section is Gurdjieff's description of "Doing". Is he really convinced that no man can do anything? Is there another more indirect point that Gurdjieff is getting at?
We begin to see a pattern developing within Gurdjieff's explanation. Is man just the result of external influences? Would a child abandoned at birth in the wild learn to speak? Would he know to build a fire? He would only build the skills necessary to survive. Motive is a funny thing because often it comes on two fronts. First there must be a need to fulfill. Second the must be a recognition of a pattern or method to its fulfillment. What is motive? Something that causes a person to act in a certain way or do a certain thing. That something is influence, just as described by Gurdjieff in the above section. The build is slow here but I promise the lesson is worth the read.
Hopefully by now you've come to realize what Gurdjieff is talking about is not man's inability to "do". Rather he is making a point that no man acts alone. There is always an influence guiding him to and through the process. This influence not only manifests itself through external forces but also takes form deep within the human mind. At first glance we can see a mere glimmer of the microcosmic connect to the macrocosmic event but the difficulty of it remains suspiciously hidden within the simplicity of its appearance. I would like to point out one person's recognition of one external force... Jason King's "Satanic Current".
In the beginning of this last section Gurdjieff says "In order to do it is necessary to be". What do you suppose this means? Immediately he offers an answer which doesn't appear as an answer at all. He talks of a "special language" which he and his students use. He calls it truth.
I've talked in previous post about the difference between Objective Knowledge and Subjective Knowledge. I've demonstrated the difficulty one would have trying to describe a tree to someone who had never seen or been around a tree. For you to truly understand a tree, you must have experienced one. For you to truly know a tree, you must be one.
In this lies the answer to Gurdjieff's riddle-like answer. To "be"... you must really know and experience all that is... You. All your flaws. All your perfections. All your misery and joy. The totality of you. This has always been taught that it must be done (at first) with minimal influence from external forces. In fact the preference is none (which I think is highly impossible). Reaching deep into yourself and embracing the machine. At the same time realizing that this is NOT all that is you. Like a rain drop, snowflake, or a blade of grass; each of us at first glance looks the same. A deeper inspection reveals we are all individually distinct. Gurdjieff said "Unity through diversity"! You don't get more Satanic than that.
Here I'd like to point out two things. The first is the section I've colored red and fact that we've encountered this qoute on this forum before and recently. It was used in a manner that was designed to slightly twist the true meaning of this profound statement. Through the remainder of this lesson, I will demonstrate the truth of it.
The second is more relavent to the knowledge we are recieving today. That is the origin and history of the word "consider".
Now finally we come to Gurdjieff's meaning of "doing" and "considering". Was Gurdjieff's considering something that " creates inner slavery, inner dependence"? Only when the consideration is done unintentionally. When it is allowed to effect you without any sense of being on your part. As I stated in the beginning this is VERY dense text and with that there is one lesson within it which I set out with in mind that I've not taught. However I'll let this sink in and when it is requested, I will then give the "Part Two"
When the Stars are Right!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by beastx on May 14, 2010 17:51:41 GMT -6
Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus knows me oh-to-well. So I will take this into part two.
Gurdjieff said "Try to understand what I am saying: everything is dependent on everything else, everything is connected, nothing is separate. Therefore everything is going in the only way it can go. If people were different everything would be different. They are what they are, so everything is as it is."
This subtle statement seems at first to be vague and too novel to hold any weight. This however is entirely not the case. In fact this statement alone is the key to opening another door to the realm of "Doing" and "Considering". Using the exact same text as my previous post with just a little further reading into this we will see these things in a whole new light.
We've looked at Gurdjieff's use of the word "Doing" in the previous post, now let's compare it to the concept of "Happens". How does Gurdjieff use this word?
"Everything happens. All that befalls a man, all that is done by him, all that comes from him—all this happens. And it happens in exactly the same way as rain falls as a result of a change in the temperature in the higher regions of the atmosphere or the surrounding clouds, as snow melts under the rays of the sun, as dust rises with the wind." said Gurdjieff
Is Gurdjieff talking about a random mix of chaotic uncaused events? Clearly not, He chooses examples in which a specific set of influences combine to initiate a chain reaction which leads to a specific outcome.
Where "Doing" is the lone act committed in which the course of things on the grand scale is dramatically altered with no influences. We can see "Happening" as the phenomenon where combinations of set influences push, pull, slow, and drag the flowing course of events truly shaping the outcome of destiny.
Does this by default mean that everything is predetermined to happen and the course of history cannot be altered?
Here I want to point out in the begin of this section that Gurdjieff is directly comparing global events such as popular movements, war, revolutions, changes of government to ordinary man's life events like birth, life, death, the building of houses. Even more bizarre he continues by comparing them to love, hate, desire.
What do these things all have in common? The first most obvious answer is they all happen. They all are the result of combinations of set influences. Lurking behind the obvious answer is another observable manifestation. This one is the age old "as Above, so Below". However I will teach more on this dimension of the text in another lesson. For now just note the comparison.
Notice Gurdjieff places Ouspenski in a situation in which he is required to direct extra attention to Gurdjieff. Why does Gurdjieff do this? It is for the same reasons that I keep posting these long, deep, and exhaustive posts? Yes! It is for the same reason.
When Ouspensky asks "Can war be stopped?", Gurdjieff throws him for a loop when he answers in an unexpected manner. His reasoning as to why seems to be some incomprehensible cosmic scheme which seems too out-of-reach to reconcile.
Here is something to ponder through all of this, Why does Gurdjieff say "They think they signify something; they think they can move about as they like; they think they can decide to do this or that. But in reality all their movements, all their actions, are the result of planetary influences"? Why doesn't he say 'stellar influences'?
Could he be talking planetary in the sense of global totality?
A Correlation of forces in different worlds... Wow what an amazing form of considering, without a doubt. See up until now little is really understood in the CoC about The Work. Gurdjieff makes it clear that The Work IS NOT just Observing thyself in some passive meditation (although a huge part of it), we must also begin to chose which influences we will consider and "actually fall" under them.
There is another trait of considering presented to us at the end of this last section. It belongs to the fact that we all exist consciously on different levels. In the CoC this is illustrated through a hierarchy of rank.
However the point is this;
Someone in 3rd grade would not be able to grasp or work within the system of algebra. However they are prepared to do so with the teaching of basic arithmetic. They were prepared for that by learning the number symbols. Before that they learned to count on there fingers.
This is important because as we choose our consideration of influences, we must be able to distinguish which level the influence is on and our readiness to move up to it. As Gurdjieff said "Only you do not realize at present that the difference between these levels is far greater than you might suppose. You take different things on one level, far too near one another, and you think these different levels are accessible to you." This is one way man lies to himself. A good example of this is the perpetrator of "Mastery" in part one or the pretentious James Campbell.
I made a statement in the beginning of this lesson and later posed the question. Do you remember what they were?
The statement was that Gurdjieff's statement "Try to understand what I am saying: everything is dependent on everything else, everything is connected, nothing is separate. Therefore everything is going in the only way it can go" was key to "doing" and "considering".
The question was "Does this by default mean that everything is predetermined to happen and the course of history cannot be altered?"
The two are intertwined indefinitely and in the strangest way.
If man remains asleep at the wheel, blindly considering, then yes everything can go only in the way that it is going. Things will still happen. Should he awake and begin practicing intentional consideration, everything will still go in the only direction it can. However that direction will be different than the previously mentioned direction and different things will happen.
There is a part three but I'm not sure if this is presented in a clear manner so.... Thoughts?
The Cult of Cthulhu Shall Never Die!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by beastx on May 30, 2010 19:19:32 GMT -6
I agree with this statement in it's entirety. The larger forces at work are easy to see, and therefore much more prominent in our thought and attention. However, it's the little areas, the mundane, the mechanical, that tend to restrict us, usually without our awareness. Thank you for your response.
Awake! Aspara Kamalli,
Where I believe you are working in the right direction. I believe you are a little misguided in your perception of the terror at hand. You see humans are a biological machine and in that an element of the mundane is in order. The problem lies not in the components of this machine, the issue is the "operator" is a sleep at the wheel. At least for the most part. There are those rare moments in which something will "shock" us into an alerted state but we quickly and heavily fall back into sedation. Those larger forces you speak of we only pretend to have any attention on them.
And to answer your question posed to Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus. This is precisely how we know our resistance isn't what the universe wants. If it was there wouldn't be billions of out of control biological machines smashing and crashing into each other.
Awesome to see your participation! Keep up the great work.
By His Loathsome Tentacles!
Beast Xeno First Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Jun 1, 2010 21:37:27 GMT -6
I think it's more than just some people like rules. It runs deeper than that.
Our society pushes an ingrained, programmed belief system that condemns those that don't follow. We shove it down our sons and daughters throats, demanding that they think within the set parameters so that they won't be considered outcasts of society. Most of this is done with the hopes (and fears) that we, as PARENTS won't be considered outcasts or ignorant fools. And that is only if the parent has any sort of sense of self that is not mechanical.
To take it a step further, I would even venture to say that most don't even know they are following a set of "rules" or teaching it to their young ones, but merely living as they only know how.
This is the mechanical way. This is how the universe makes sure that the mechanical way of thinking lives on. Too many non-mechanical beings could shift the awareness, and mass chaos would ensue. And more would awaken. And then where would we be?
Awake!
AK
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Post by egodiabolus on Jun 12, 2010 8:31:58 GMT -6
I wonder...
If the goal is to be self-focused and striving for perfection, what is the benefit of reaching back and helping others awake? This is somewhat of an act of kindness, though not necessarily one of selflessness.
I understand the benefit could be to remind yourself where you've come from and help to re-evaluate where you are now, but is that the only benefit?
Awake!
AK My girlfriend and I had this discussion just last evening.
You are reaching back to others as a means to test what it is you have learned or developed. Does what you do really work, or are you just deluding yourself? Do you really understand what you espouse? If so, can you explain it sufficiently to another that when they employee it they get similar results? The difference is instead of just guessing that what you are doing is real and effective, you know it is by seeing your example repeated by others.
This is the case not just with the Work, but with any pursuit. As a tattoo artist, I could only learn so much on my own. Eventually, I had to seek out someone willing to teach me to be a tattoo artist. I had to find a mentor that not only knew how to tattoo, but knew how well enough to explain it successfully to another. He didn't teach me to tattoo for the sake of training another artist (and not for cash, my apprenticeship was free). He saw that I had potential as an artist and passion. He wanted to see if his ideas and techniques were valid by having an untrained hand try them out. By proving to himself through me that what he was doing was effective, he became more confident about his own process. Together, we were able to tweak those processes and develop a more accurate language for discussion of those processes. Things he didn't fully understand became more clear to him as those things were questioned from an outside perspective.
This is the primary benefit, and it is extremely important.
A secondary benefit is retaining the ability to communicate. Here is what I mean.
A physicist has been working in the private sector for the majority of his life. In his interactions with other physicists, he has dealt typically with those who are either just short of his understanding of physics, share his understanding of physics, or just above his level of understanding. After 30 year of study and development in the private sector, he is offered a position as a professor at a college where he will be teaching entry-level students.
During his first week of classes, he provides information he considers basic, and at the end of the week, he tests his students, only to find that none of them can pass his test. The problem isn't that his students are all idiots, it is that he now speaks in a language that represents his level of understanding which is so far beyond his students that they cannot relate to the ideas he is expressing.
Where this is a detriment to him is that one of his students could have an idea that will radically change his field of study. Since the learned professor does not speak the language of the students, when this student explains his theory, the professor may not be able to understand it. The mode of its expression might be too simple or too elegant, having no relationship with the language the professor has been immersed in all his life.
The professor would find himself in a rut, though at the pinnacle of his particular progression, his potential evolution is limited only to that very narrow path. In his pursuit, he has forgotten himself, and is asleep to developments outside his limited frame of reference.
If he continuously reached back to persons well below his level of understanding, he may have retained the mental flexibility to relate to ideas developed outside his tier of expertise.
I suppose the weight of the importance of these two benefits will be relative, but for me they are sufficient reason to continue a dialogue with anyone who has the sense to ask me how I am who I am.
Awake!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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