I'm very slow. I'm only
NOW getting to the 'unification threads' which lay behind informing your discussions in YT and elsewhere prior to the shake-up that brought a bit of drama to the CoC. the YT videos i saw weren't convincing to me. I found them facile and futilely ambiguous as to motive. perhaps they were borne aloft by your essay here:
www.cultofcthulhu.net/2010/08/unification-the-will-of-power/ <
Unification: The Will of Power <
{SNIP} <
I am adding a number of comments on all that has come before me here. the dreams and visions of religious cultists are what they are, and quite often they are unreasonable and badly founded. I wonder, given what you say here about unification, how that compares with your decision to issue excommunications. perhaps the former was a external matter whereas the latter was an internal clarification that needed attention.
perhaps needless to say, i see no unification in the offing. my impression is that it is a Protestant dream that shall never come to pass while individualism and personal choice are emphasized. it is fundamentally incompatible with Satanism, which i think gleans some attention in this thread. the problem of ambassadors is one of attempted proselytizing. the problem of grottos is one of megalomaniacal disruptors. the latter was learned by the Church of Satan. integration would pit the massive egos of the LHP against one another and that would be threatening to each of the little hillock-kings.
additionally, your notion regarding freedom's requiring a single force is mistaken. while it may be accurate that such a coalition could be beneficial, what is called 'liberation' in the LHP doesn't depend on social groups at all, but is instead an internal revolution justified by desire and interest.
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Apsara Kamalli (from her personal journal entry...):
The group has been discussing infiltrating different LHP groups <
and forums to bring the CoC name to the forefront of other's <
minds. I will do the same with different RHP associates and <
forums. There are plenty of people posting in the RHP forums that <
don't necessarily agree with what is being discussed there. These <
individuals could possess a potential for greatness in the LHP <
community. If nothing else, they would probably at least be <
willing to meet in the center of the philosophies while studying <
the Fourth Way. ... <
if one were to re-interpret LHP to be something like what Ipsissimus Satanis has explained (from below: "The LHP is for liberation and Godhood while the rhp is for submission and slavery to the universe / nature / earthly forces."), then i'm sure that it could launch an appeal to RHP-types of a more liberal interest, primarily because it adopts a RHP character by my assessment.
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egodiabolus:
...before we as an organization seek other organizations to coordinate <
with..., we have to establish a better understanding of who we are, as <
objectively as possible. ...the Cult of Cthulhu's "clear sense of self". <
I agree with this very strongly.
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Yrreiht:
How many strong, enduring, structured organizations of the LHP exist? <
0. based on Ipsissimus Satanis' understanding, perhaps there are 1 or more.
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Ipsissimus Satanis:
...those adversarial individualists will either come around or be <
swept away. Not by us, but the coming tide of right wing and right <
hand fury. .... Do people honestly think the world is becoming <
more "satanic" all on it's own? .... <
I see no such coming tide. on the contrary, as institutional education and standards of living increase, i see secularism and thus what LaVey sought to capture in his description of 'Satanism' on the rise.
Sugarcubez: The solution is to ditch Satanism, and to spread the <
idea/kowledge/meme to the general public that Anton LaVey did <
codify satanism, but that he did not invent the Left Hand Path. <
Ipsissimus Satanis: The end goal will be to ditch everything, to get <
rid of all "isms". Right now, labels are extremely useful, but a <
hundred years from now I hope we will have outgrown them. <
I think this was the aim of your two previous Priests of R'lyeh. ditching Satanism is in part what i have achieved by my promotion of Satanity (escalating to a description of all extant Satanisms, purporting that my own Satanism isn't itself an exportable ideology).
Ipsissimus Satanis: ...the individual is king. No matter what <
organization one belongs to, each practitioner must stand on his <
own two feet. Nevertheless, the LHP lacks representation, and <
that is the principal reason for uniting. <
in which case, since we don't need no steenking representation, there's no reason for uniting.
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egodiabolus: We should not seek recognition. Recognition should come to us <
based on our efforts and successes, but it should not be sought. <
... <
Just like the Work, we influence what we can, starting inwardly, <
and through that inward influence begin to influence outwardly. <
The way the organization evolves is no different than the way of <
the individual. <
I cannot over-emphasize the wisdom of this evaluation.
Ipsissimus Satanis replies to this: ....One way or another, I will make <
the world take notice. <
not only do i think that this is a direct contradiction to what egodiabolus was saying, i think that you will reap the detriments of such a seeking.
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Ipsissimus Satanis: Those of a certain blood who followed the example <
set by the Keepers would know hideous paradise on earth. <
Ipsissimus Satanis elaborates: Within the vision, I felt as though a predestined <
few were connected to the Keepers, that a lineage existed between <
Keeper and those practicing the Left Hand Path. Those who adhered <
to the sinister way, favoring mastery over slavery, will be <
rewarded with an apocalypse. <
it seems to me that he was asking whether you meant 'of a certain blood' literally. in combination with some kind of ONA association, it would then naturally follow, once you slay the LHP by corrupting it away from individual sovereignty, you intended to install an actual dictatorship and follow it up with racist agendae (i.e. reproduce the error-laden aims of neo-nazism which the ONA plays with, complete with racialist purity and Hitlerphilia). Joy of Satan and ONA are hot on these, and if you're talking about 'blood purity' already you might be ripe to escalate into their reproduction of Christian folly (e.g. apocalypse, The Final Battle Against the Jews, Muslims, or Whoever is the Target Behind the Bogey This Week).
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qzbah wrote: ...What or how exactly does the CoC define an "other" <
organization to be? .... <
{SNIP mention of Grand Master Blackwood and his Temples of Satan}
{SNIP mention of Reverend Jody Griggs and his Int'l Council of Satan}
Ipsissimus Satanis: ...What choice would Joe Evil have but to become <
part of the growing, cohesive Left Hand Path community which the <
Cthulhu Cult embodies? .... <
remain a pod and blob independent franchise.
Ipsissimus Satanis on 8/8/2010:
Chloe ...ordered Sugarcubz to delete her account on our <
forum. If you're wondering where all of Qz'bah's posts went to, <
there's your answer. Sad news, but hopefully she'll come back <
soon once she's realized that Chloe is not God's answer to the <
ONA, and the ONA is not God's answer to enlightenment. <
going on 5 months and no account by the name of 'Qzbah' exists. do you keep a record of these predictions or prophecies and your stats for being right and wrong? it might be a useful substantiation to your Ipsissimitude. are you aware that several people have claimed to be the head of "the ONA" and that some of them such as Grand Master Blackwood have abandoned such claims, or such as Anton Long, disappeared in favour of some other more radical individual who claims to now
be Mr. Long? perhaps it was this to which 'Qzbah' was alluding? Chloe might have played you all for a lark.
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lucofthelight/K'ara Kaiul:
...people's ego's evidently get in the way of seeing the bigger picture. <
unless the bigger picture is not equivalent to your vision. presuming that one's own vision is the bigger picture is what goeth before the Fall.
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Chloe 352 Order of Nine Angles 121 yf ONA Nexion 352:
...nobody seems to know what the word "enlightenment" means exactly. <
Gnostics, Buddhists, Sufis, and Cthulhu cultists should formulate numerous interpretations as to what this means and compare and contrast them. whoever Chloe is, it doesn't have enough knowledge to understand that several such notions exist within these subcultures. Qzbah's words were prescient.
...they disagree with the fundamental idea of Unification of any sort. ...it <
desires to remain autonomous and sovereign so that it alone has the right and <
power to determine its own Wyrd and to live its Kollective existence as it <
sees fit according to its own Sinister Nature, interests, and dictates. <
Therefore ... for its own future and our future progeny's personal <
Imperium; {it must} decline your suggestion and offer of partnerships and <
relations. ... <
it is my contention that you will receive this response repeatedly where you are not mocked and heckled.
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Apsara: ...{Separating} the wheat from the chaff is fine. <
Assuming that an individual is chaff because they come to the CoC <
with a RHP background and {a} set of beliefs seems limiting. <
Ipsissimus Satanis: Background is not important; finding a reason to <
work is. ... Show me a non-LHP practitioner that wishes to see this <
reality burn along with the parasitic deities who designed it, <
and I'll gladly call him my brother. <
you call me brother though i do not want to see this reality burn, nor do i have much against most deities.
it's human reproduction and violent folly that concerns me. only today a business associate and tangental friend was telling me that he was ready for 'our society' (the USA) to experience a 'revolution' and collapse. I realized when i was talking with him that i associated this mindframe with Satanists between the ages of 16 and 26 who seek 'revolution' and mayhem because, like him, they purport that some new fabulous replacement will arise from the ashes. I logged onto IRC and there was an esotericist (22yo?) informing me that if i were but to 'try a little harder' i could perceive with my intuition a massive degradation in the natural laws, and that 'the universal system was breaking down'. I didn't see it. dream on, i say.
Apsara: ...how do you propose we go about getting past other <
group's/leader's egos to lead them to the "bigger picture"? <
the best way is not to promote a stable picture as some sacrosanct 'Truth'.
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Ipsissimus Satanis:
www.cultofcthulhu.net/2010/08/dark-pursuits-bathed-in-fire-the-observable-current-of-the-left-hand-path/my response is here, along with our subsequent discussion:
www.modernchurchofsatan.com/grotto/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3913&sid=e938ee19d59c28ab6c8c731b2da35610in it, you ask the following questions:
Ipsissimus Satanis:
At the moment, how can anyone in political office know we exist until <
the LHP announces its presence and demands the kind of change we <
would like to see? <
neither do i think we are coherent or intelligent enough to arrive at such a desire, nor do i think we are of sufficient numbers where it would matter.
re Stephen Flowers:
Leaving self-deification alone, I saw antinomianism as a desire for both <
autonomy and power. How else can we escape the limiting and profane law <
which rules us? <
retire to a tropical island with a satellite computer connection. elsewise, find the most liberal nation that may be immigrated to and establish yourself there.
we're not talking about {when mentioning "Paradigm Shift – Altering reality <
to suit the LHP.} a mere individual paradigm shift (although that would be <
included), but a world paradigm shift or a reality shift. Does <
that make more sense? <
yes, it makes sense as it did before, though i don't notice that anything needs to be done in order to make room for what is called LHP; that is already developing in the wake of globalization, mass-culture, and urbanization. these things make all non-lethal variants of culture amenable to social protection.
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egodiabolus: ...the purpose of organization. ...{is to follow} the same <
patterns {as individuals:} to achieve Autonomy, amass Power, and <
become a Deity amongst other institutions. ... <
hopeful. organizations are generally parasitic of the individual. those which may serve as exceptions are those with standing armies that somehow get swindled into preserving individual rights.
The challenge is to follow-through as individuals. If you are <
comfortable... if you are content, then you are more dead than <
alive, more asleep than awake, a slave to your past rather than a <
master of your future. The Left Hand Path has no place for <
bench-warmers or cheerleaders. <
this provides a reason never to arrive, never to be satisfied, never to have achieved one's goals. it flies in the face of hedonism and epicureanism, which are favourites of Satanists across the globe rallying anti-Puritanism masquerading as anti-Christianity. as i said before, organizations introduce automatically RHP factors by virtue of cooperation and co-opting influences. for this reason all of the suggestions you have here relating to 'LHP organizations' are compromised and most are ...specious. prophetic visions are the means by which religious pull the wool over the eyes of cultists.
if your 'reality becomes more sand-like every day', then you're doing something wrong. your promises of gods in the natural course of time or after death is just what all the cults trot out to hook the rubes once they've found themselves bankrupted. honing one's will to a razor's edge, every little ledge becomes a salvific purchase. no storms impending, no doom approaches. any batch of aims can be propped up as a substitute for individual direction. that doesn't make it any more sound.
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luboggth: When push comes to shove, those who know that they must <
unite or otherwise be destroyed on their own will thus do so. <
this is a false dichotomy. people walk solitary LHP paths more often than joining up with supposed LHP groups or orders. the principles of the LHP as typically described aren't compatible long-term with organizations.
...The problem that surrounds unification is that everyone wants to push their <
own agenda. They do not wish to follow one from another group. ... <
more often than not LHP walkers aren't followers at all, we're leaders, and have no need or reason to follow anyone else.
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...All organizations would want to know is,"How will this benefit us?" MY answer: #1 The room to influence us here on the forum with their paradigm. They'll digg that.
only if they think that they can get something from you that they want.
only if you have skills or talents of which they will wish to take advantage.